The truth.

How can God be perfect if his creations are not perfect?  If God made me, and I'm not perfect, clearly God is not perfect either.

It's a really good point though, beast. What's the point in building something that you're only going to get pissed at and damn for all of eternity? Why build something that goes against what you decree (like gay people and how God loves everyone - except them)? And if God is all powerful, why couldn't he see his creations ending up the way they did before he created them?

That's really some God, in my opinion.

"Better" and "perfect" are terms relative to some use or model. Perfect for what? What is a god perfect or not perfect for? The expression makes no sense to begin with.

Quote from: beast on May 12, 2007, 10:56:07 AM

How can God be perfect if his creations are not perfect?  If God made me, and I'm not perfect, clearly God is not perfect either.

It's a really good point though, beast. What's the point in building something that you're only going to get pissed at and damn for all of eternity? Why build something that goes against what you decree (like gay people and how God loves everyone - except them)? And if God is all powerful, why couldn't he see his creations ending up the way they did before he created them?

That's really some God, in my opinion.

I think it's argued that God wouldn't create people perfect because he wanted them to have free will, and for free will to work there had to be a choice of good and bad so there would have to be the potential for not being perfect.

That's a stupid excuse. If god can do anything, it could have created free will without the possibility of evil actions. I could still choose between vanilla and chocolate ice cream, just not to throw it to your head.

Free will could exist but not the free will to choose good

No. Wrong. Try again.

Free will cannot exist unless it is in the exact nature that Gayer outlined.

If you cannot choose something for yourself, you do not have free will. Period.

But here's the catch: Do you think it would have mattered to God whether or not we had free will? If it did, and he truly wanted us to obey, he wouldn't have allowed us free will. Plus, in the long run we wouldn't even realize what was going on, because what comes along with free will is the consciousness of the choices we make. There would be no sin. There would be no evil. No corruption.

But that's just not the case. So if God wanted us to be perfect, if God wanted us to be sinless, he wouldn't have given us free will. At this point, I think it's safe to then argue that it's not our fault that the human race is greedy, deceitful, and corrupt. It's God's fault.

Well yeah if God gave us free will then it is his fault to that extent that we're greedy, deceitful and corrupt. If he didn't give us free will then that would never have happened. You still can't take away individual human responsibility for making those choices though.

It's like a firefighter starting fires so he can rescue people.  This kind of behavior is generally frowned upon.

Well yeah if God gave us free will then it is his fault to that extent that we're greedy, deceitful and corrupt. If he didn't give us free will then that would never have happened. You still can't take away individual human responsibility for making those choices though.

Of course not, but the root blame is with God, if he exists.

I agree with you there Hara

God is selfish.  He wants everyone to believe in Him even though there's no rational reason to do so.  Therefore, if you accept the basic tenets of Christianity (which inevitably lead to this conclusion) you also have to accept that He is not perfect, by His own definition.  Therefore, His very nature as described in the Bible is contradicted by the reality you accept as a Christian.  That one contradiction is enough reason to question everything in the Bible.

God is selfish.  He wants everyone to believe in Him even though there's no rational reason to do so.  Therefore, if you accept the basic tenets of Christianity (which inevitably lead to this conclusion) you also have to accept that He is not perfect, by His own definition.  Therefore, His very nature as described in the Bible is contradicted by the reality you accept as a Christian.  That one contradiction is enough reason to question everything in the Bible.

Actually, God is jealous, not selfish.
He states in both Exodus and Deuteronomy (10 Commandments) that he is jealous, and we should not bow down to images or idols (respectively) and/or Gods. But, if we look at God as jealous... who can he be jealous of? I believe, this, in itself, is proof of God's fallibility and his lack of absolute sole power. But, this in no way makes me question everything in the Bible.

If God is fallible and isn't the absolute sole power, why follow him?  Do you love God?  Why?

Well yeah if God gave us free will then it is his fault to that extent that we're greedy, deceitful and corrupt. If he didn't give us free will then that would never have happened. You still can't take away individual human responsibility for making those choices though.

Maybe this kind of lines up with if you repent for your sins you are forgiven because it is not entirely your own fault, although most of it is your fault because of free will.  Free will kind of gets confusing.  If we assume God is perfect, He could make perfect free will.  Meaning if we have perfect free will, all our good vs. evil decisions are entirely our responsibility.

Quote from: Roundy the Globularist on May 12, 2007, 01:23:42 PM

God is selfish.  He wants everyone to believe in Him even though there's no rational reason to do so.  Therefore, if you accept the basic tenets of Christianity (which inevitably lead to this conclusion) you also have to accept that He is not perfect, by His own definition.  Therefore, His very nature as described in the Bible is contradicted by the reality you accept as a Christian.  That one contradiction is enough reason to question everything in the Bible.

Actually, God is jealous, not selfish.
He states in both Exodus and Deuteronomy (10 Commandments) that he is jealous, and we should not bow down to images or idols (respectively) and/or Gods. But, if we look at God as jealous... who can he be jealous of? I believe, this, in itself, is proof of God's fallibility and his lack of absolute sole power. But, this in no way makes me question everything in the Bible.

Frosty the Snowman is happy, not compassionate.
It is stated in the song of our ancestors, Frosty the Snowman:

Verily, Frosty the Snowman
Was a joyous, nay, happy soul.
With yonder corncob pipe and button nose
And two eyes, of coal manufacture.

It is very clear here, that Frosty the Snowman has a "happy soul." Experts still disagree on what "button nose" means (viz., if it is a real button, or simply describes the shape of his nose). Also, evil secularists argue that eyes made of coal could not actually see. But we believe that coal simply means that his eyes were very dark, and did not have whites. They were manufactured by our Creator to look like coals. That's all.

If God is fallible and isn't the absolute sole power, why follow him?  Do you love God?  Why?

If you're talking to me, I don't believe I have ever once said I follow God.
If you are taking my name as me being a religious zealot, you are very quick to judge.
I, for one, am more of an agnostic, but that in no way means I can't respect Jesus and want to be a strong of a person as he was. I've said before, whether he was the Son of God, or not, his way of life has almost never been matched by another human (I can't really say if it has or not, since I don't know the history of every human who's walked on the Earth).
I don't understand people's notions today of laughing at people when they want to follow Jesus (whether they are religious, or not). It is these type of people who attack who are truly weak. (I'm not saying you did that, but there are a great number of people who do)

Quote from: Jesus Reborn on May 15, 2007, 04:51:43 AM

Quote from: Roundy the Globularist on May 12, 2007, 01:23:42 PM

God is selfish.  He wants everyone to believe in Him even though there's no rational reason to do so.  Therefore, if you accept the basic tenets of Christianity (which inevitably lead to this conclusion) you also have to accept that He is not perfect, by His own definition.  Therefore, His very nature as described in the Bible is contradicted by the reality you accept as a Christian.  That one contradiction is enough reason to question everything in the Bible.

Actually, God is jealous, not selfish.
He states in both Exodus and Deuteronomy (10 Commandments) that he is jealous, and we should not bow down to images or idols (respectively) and/or Gods. But, if we look at God as jealous... who can he be jealous of? I believe, this, in itself, is proof of God's fallibility and his lack of absolute sole power. But, this in no way makes me question everything in the Bible.

Frosty the Snowman is happy, not compassionate.
It is stated in the song of our ancestors, Frosty the Snowman:

Verily, Frosty the Snowman
Was a joyous, nay, happy soul.
With yonder corncob pipe and button nose
And two eyes, of coal manufacture.

It is very clear here, that Frosty the Snowman has a "happy soul." Experts still disagree on what "button nose" means (viz., if it is a real button, or simply describes the shape of his nose). Also, evil secularists argue that eyes made of coal could not actually see. But we believe that coal simply means that his eyes were very dark, and did not have whites. They were manufactured by our Creator to look like coals. That's all.

You must question everything in the Bible, then?
You are just another weak minded person who cannot find a grey area in a subject. You must pick an extreme, simply because your weak mind cannot fathom the thought of finding common ground. Or is it because you are too lazy to seek knowledge on a subject and would rather pick a side for the sake of trying to prove that side? Quit living in a black and white world, the grey world is much nicer.

I, for one, am more of an agnostic, but that in no way means I can't respect Jesus and want to be a strong of a person as he was.

Yes, Jesus was quite an admirable character. I guess a few magic tricks excuse his little, um, foibles, such as flying into blind rages, cursing his mother, preaching hellfire and withdrawing information so that people may go there, being basically a street bum and living off widows, encouraging people to leave their loved ones to serve him, promoting stealing, encouraging submission to the State, and so on and so forth...

Excuse me, but even Sai Baba is more credible than this cheap bullshitter you respect so much... at least he gives people better miracles and doesn't fly into rages.

Quote

I, for one, am more of an agnostic, but that in no way means I can't respect Jesus and want to be a strong of a person as he was.

Yes, Jesus was quite an admirable character. I guess a few magic tricks excuse his little, um, foibles, such as flying into blind rages, cursing his mother, preaching hellfire and withdrawing information so that people may go there, being basically a street bum and living off widows, encouraging people to leave their loved ones to serve him, promoting stealing, encouraging submission to the State, and so on and so forth...

Excuse me, but even Sai Baba is more credible than this cheap bullshitter you respect so much... at least he gives people better miracles and doesn't fly into rages.

Once again, educate yourself on the subjects, don't just repeat useless garbage that you have seen others repeat and use for your own purpose.
If you realized why he did these things, you'd see he had a very good reason to fly off the handle; like at the money counters. (greed)
Explain how he promoted stealing. If you mean, taking back what thieves took from people in the first place, then, sure he promoted stealing. (justice)

Also, I would like to know where these others things you say happened. Maybe, you just interpret wrong, like, oh, so many others.

Once again, educate yourself on the subjects, don't just repeat useless garbage that you have seen others repeat and use for your own purpose.

Excuse me, sir? I read the Bible, you obviously haven't.

If you realized why he did these things, you'd see he had a very good reason to fly off the handle; like at the money counters. (greed)

So other people's greed, which hurt no one, justifies a so-called holy man flying into a blind rage?

Explain how he promoted stealing. If you mean, taking back what thieves took from people in the first place, then, sure he promoted stealing. (justice)

RTFB- Read The Fucking Bible
Luke 19:29-36 Jesus steals a horse
Luke 16 Jesus tells a parable showing that helping others to steal is good

Also, I would like to know where these others things you say happened. Maybe, you just interpret wrong, like, oh, so many others.

No, I know how to comprehend text, I am not illiterate. Don't presume to insult me sir. RTFB.

Quote from: Jesus Reborn on May 15, 2007, 04:25:02 PM

Once again, educate yourself on the subjects, don't just repeat useless garbage that you have seen others repeat and use for your own purpose.

Excuse me, sir? I read the Bible, you obviously haven't.

Quote

If you realized why he did these things, you'd see he had a very good reason to fly off the handle; like at the money counters. (greed)

So other people's greed, which hurt no one, justifies a so-called holy man flying into a blind rage?

Quote

Explain how he promoted stealing. If you mean, taking back what thieves took from people in the first place, then, sure he promoted stealing. (justice)

RTFB- Read The Fucking Bible
Luke 19:29-36 Jesus steals a horse
Luke 16 Jesus tells a parable showing that helping others to steal is good

Quote

Also, I would like to know where these others things you say happened. Maybe, you just interpret wrong, like, oh, so many others.

No, I know how to comprehend text, I am not illiterate. Don't presume to insult me sir. RTFB.

"Greed doesn't hurt anyone." Hahaha, that is ignorance at its finest.
You're "reading" of the Bible may be true, but reading something with an open-mind instead of a closed-mind will result in different interpretations. Also, face value vs. hidden value.

edit: being literate only means you can read... being able to interpret meanings behind the text are much different. And if you took that as an insult, you are a very uptight person... which, from any post of yours I've seen on this board, is true.

"Greed doesn't hurt anyone." Hahaha, that is ignorance at its finest.

Who the fuck did the money-changer hurt? And how did he deserve for his belongings to get trashed by this madman? Do you think current agents of change should be trashed as well? Why or why not?

Are you always this careless, or do you sometimes let other people think for you?

Quote

"Greed doesn't hurt anyone." Hahaha, that is ignorance at its finest.

Who the fuck did the money-changer hurt? And how did he deserve for his belongings to get trashed by this madman? Do you think current agents of change should be trashed as well? Why or why not?

Are you always this careless, or do you sometimes let other people think for you?

I see  how you operate now, Franc. So you only hold a belief when it is contivient for you in an arguement, Mr. Market Anarchist, Mr. I don't believe in taxation. What did the money changer do, you ask? The money changers converted Roman money into Hebrew money, as the temple tax was only paid in shekels. They made tremendous amounts of money doing this, the Hebrews also charged amazing interest rates, sometimes well over 100%. It is not hard to see what this "madman" might have had a problem with this.

Because I think money changers who transact for taxation purposes are not criminals, now I believe in taxation? Dazzling display of logic. Should I also believe that anyone who believes in taxation should be trashed?

Yes, taxation is evil (and incidentally Jesus supported taxation, which makes him complicit), but the stated reason by our Christian friend was "greed." He believes that greed is enough of a reason to commit assault.

Let me tell you something right now, if you believe this, get ready to go to jail often, because there's a lot of greedy people for you to assault out there.

You must question everything in the Bible, then?
You are just another weak minded person who cannot find a grey area in a subject. You must pick an extreme, simply because your weak mind cannot fathom the thought of finding common ground. Or is it because you are too lazy to seek knowledge on a subject and would rather pick a side for the sake of trying to prove that side? Quit living in a black and white world, the grey world is much nicer.

You're an idiot.

How is it in any way weak-minded to question something that you don't agree with?  Sorry to break it to you, but it's people who don't question the Bible who are weak-minded.  I'll agree that there's a grey area in this subject, but that grey area involves the existence of God, period.  We can't prove he doesn't exist any more than we can prove that he does exist (although the atheists on this site make a compelling case for total disbelief).  But the Bible?  Know the facts, dude.

FACT: There is absolutely no contemporary evidence that Jesus EVER existed.
FACT:  The gospels were all written years after his (alleged) death.
FACT:  Many elements of the Jesus myth (his birth (including the date), crucifixion, and lifestyle) were stolen from pagan myth.

If Jesus existed, and if he was as described in the Bible, I agree that a case could be made that he was "better" than the rest of humanity.  Unfortunately, there's no more reason to believe that than to believe that the earth is flat.

So you only hold a belief when it is contivient for you in an arguement

Exactly.

And Franc, I'm not Christian, I don't hold any religious beliefs. I have ideas about certain things, and draw out what I can learn from certain individuals/past events. I don't let others think for me, nor will I. But, I do take advice from others, which is a big difference. Heed this advice, don't jump to conclusions.

And roundy, thank you for adding your great 2 cents on this one.
I don't think weak-minded people are only weak-minded because they don't agree with me. I think people are weak-minded because they stake a stance on one side of an argument before looking at the full picture. It's the reason why I have not taken a stance on religion, because, like everyone else in the world, we haven't seen the whole picture. I believe it's as ignorant (couldn't really think of a better word for here) to say there is a God as it is to say there isn't, hence my agnostic view on God and religion.

Jesus Reborn,

I may have misjudged some of the things you've said here, and for that (and calling you an idiot) I am truly sorry.  I think our opinions are more in agreement than I did before, rereading some of these posts.  I myself am an agnostic and think pure atheism is just as ridiculous as religion.

I just don't get why you questioned the motive for questioning everything in the Bible.

Ultimately I think everybody has to take some side on any issue, and perhaps particularly religion.  Where I have a problem with what you say is your presumption that atheists are weak-minded.  It's presumptuous because you are assuming that atheists don't look at the full picture (that's what I get from what you've said).  In my experience the truth is exactly the opposite and atheists tend to understand more about religion than religious people do.

Jesus Reborn,

I may have misjudged some of the things you've said here, and for that (and calling you an idiot) I am truly sorry.  I think our opinions are more in agreement than I did before, rereading some of these posts.  I myself am an agnostic and think pure atheism is just as ridiculous as religion.

I just don't get why you questioned the motive for questioning everything in the Bible.

Ultimately I think everybody has to take some side on any issue, and perhaps particularly religion.  Where I have a problem with what you say is your presumption that atheists are weak-minded.  It's presumptuous because you are assuming that atheists don't look at the full picture (that's what I get from what you've said).  In my experience the truth is exactly the opposite and atheists tend to understand more about religion than religious people do.

It's no problem, I think it's this forum that can get people all riled up and judge quickly because of the major difference of opinions around the place. It happens, we aren't perfect. All we can do is learn from our mistakes.

I only questioned the motive, because it seems today's fad is to throw religion out the window, for the sake of throwing it out the window. I am not tied down to any, one, religion, because I see good and bad in all religions, or, any that I am familiar with. It's good Franc, at least, knows the Bible and Christianity, but, the average atheist really doesn't know religions. And instead of learning about them, decide they don't want to spend the time and learn about what they are against. That's ignorance, in it's purest form.

I don't think all atheists are weak-minded, I know plenty of atheists who aren't, but ones that take it to an extreme and say things like "Everything in the Bible is false" or something similar, are, in a sense weak-minded. The same goes for religious fanatics who think their religion and its scripts, or whatnot, are all true. Going to an extreme, in my eyes, is a strong indicator of a weak-minded person. People who have closed-minds, on either end of any spectrum, show weakness.

I think it's people who can find common ground (a grey area) are ones who are stronger willed, and minded, than those who go to extremes.

Edit: bah, bad spelling day.

I think you may have misunderstood when I said that everything in the Bible must be questioned.  I was saying that since you can find one thing that is obviously hypocritical about it, you have reason to question the veracity of anything else in it.  That's not the same as saying that everything is false, and that's not what I intended by it.  I'm sure there's reason to believe that Jesus existed, but I'm equally sure there's no reason to believe that Jesus existed as depicted in the Bible.  It's a folk story.  Like John Appleseed or Paul Bunyan.  Exaggeration, at the very least.  Is it possible?  Sure, but no more possible than the beliefs of the Hindu, or American Indians, or Muslims, or ancient Romans or Greeks, or ancient Egyptians, or ancient Babylonians.  You see where I'm going with this.  The reality is that it's far more rational to not believe in God at all than to believe in any one religion anyway.  That's why I'm an agnostic.  I don't think there's a God, but I also don't rule out the possibility.

Most atheists don't rule out the possibility either. There's a difference between concluding, for the moment, that God does not exist, and stating flat-out that God does not exist. Because God is a very unlikely concept, very unlike anything we actually observe in the world, I provisionally conclude that there is not a God. By the provisional nature of that conclusion, however, it is open to change upon further evidence.