Planes

Why do planes seem to dissapear below the surface as they fly further and further away? If they stay at a constant height off the ground, why do they seem to go down as they fly away on flat terrain?

bishop will probably reply with his excellent  logic concerning the boat disappearing over the horizon

bishop will probably reply with his excellent  logic concerning the boat disappearing over the horizon

Good, I'll be glad to hear it.

The plane sinks because overhead objects must appear to descend as they recede - approaching the vanishing point.

From Chapter 9 of Earth Not a Globe:

ALTHOUGH the sun is at all times above the earth's surface, it appears in the morning to ascend from the north-east to the noonday position, and thence to descend and disappear, or set, in the north-west. This phenomenon arises from the operation of a simple and everywhere visible law of perspective. A flock of birds, when passing over a flat or marshy country, always appears to descend is it recedes; and if the flock is extensive, the first bird appears lower or nearer to the horizon than the last, although they are at the same actual altitude above the earth immediately beneath them.

The phenomenon of objects sinking into the horizon is side effect due to an artificial horizon. Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham found that the vanishing point of the horizon is slightly below the visible edge of the horizon due the mean combined height of the waves. Although the waves might reach a maximum of 44 inches in height above the true edge of the horizon, it has a profound effect.

This means that as the plane approaches the vanishing point it must sink into mean height of the combined waves. The smaller the plane gets into the distance, the more the waves at the false edge of the horizon will obscure its hull from the bottom up. Any increase in surface altitude at the horizon, no matter how minuscule, will obscure objects as they recede and shrink into the vanishing point.

Consult Chapter 14 of Earth Not a Globe.

Objects sinking over the horizon is a natural law of perspective. Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham found that the vanishing point of the horizon is slightly below the visible edge of the horizon due the mean combined height of the waves. Although the waves might reach a maximum of 44 inches in height above the true edge of the horizon, it has a profound effect.

This means that as the plane approaches the vanishing point it must sink into mean height of the combined waves. The smaller the plane gets into the distance, the more the waves at the false edge of the horizon will obscure its hull from the bottom up. Any increase in altitude at the horizon will obscure objects as they recede and shrink into the vanishing point.

Consult Chapter 14 of Earth Not a Globe.

And the "land waves" obscure the sun at sunrise/sunset. 

No stretch of land is perfectly flat.

As an analogy lets imagine a bacterium on a wooden dinner table. A bacterium is so tiny that hundreds of thousands of them are able to fit into a space the size of the period at the end of a sentence. Lets also imagine an apple located at the opposite end of this dinner table.

From the bacterium's point of view it can only see part of the apple - perhaps the upper half. The majority of the apple is obscured by the irregularities in the wood of the table. The line of the bacterium's horizon is as high as the largest irregularity on the table. Since the dinner table is not perfectly flat, the minuscule grooves of the table will inherently obscure all surface objects beyond it.

Unless the dinner table is perfectly and mathematically flat - an impossibility - there will be an artificial horizon created by irregularities.

No stretch of land is perfectly flat.

As an analogy lets imagine a bacterium on a wooden dinner table. A bacterium is so tiny that hundreds of thousands of them are able to fit into a space the size of the period at the end of a sentence. Lets also imagine an apple located at the opposite end of this dinner table.

From the bacterium's point of view it can only see part of the apple - perhaps the upper half. The majority of the apple is obscured by the irregularities in the wood of the table. The line of the bacterium's horizon is as high as the largest irregularity on the table. Since the dinner table is not perfectly flat, the minuscule grooves of the table will inherently obscure all surface objects beyond it.

Unless the dinner table is perfectly and mathematically flat - an impossibility - there will be an artificial horizon created by irregularities.

Umm ok, then what happens if the "bacteria" build a tower, to be able to see further, without obstuctions? Would they be able to see the edge or the dinner table? Better yet, what happens if they climb the apple, the highest point on the table? it would be miles taller then any curve that causes obscurity. So what then? Would they see the edge of the table, since there's no obscurities?

you base your knowledge on books that were written by who?
I think Stan Lee's comics have more logic than yours.

Most of your beliefs come from books written in the 14th century. Have you missed the past 500 years of history?

I sit in sad repose as I type this, concerning an issue I find most deeply disturbing. I will start this discussion by arguing that Mr. Tom Bishop likes to have difficult social issues presented to him in simple, black-and-white terms. Then, I will present evidence that the hysteria and witch-hunts fueled by Mr. Bishop's plaints will perpetuate misguided and questionable notions of other sappy, peremptory losers' intentions when you least expect it, -- and Mr. Bishop knows it. I could tell him that the idea that people want disgusting grizzlers to withhold information and disseminate half truths and whole lies is a fundamental misunderstanding of the human condition, although he obviously doesn't care. I could tell him that all people, including nugatory psychics, ought to be kind and sensitive to one another, but he wouldn't believe me. He probably also doesn't care that the nicest thing that can be said about his attendants is that they are incontinent nebbishes out to promulgate partisan prejudice against others. So let me appeal to whatever small semblance of reason Mr. Bishop may be capable of when I tell him that it is not uncommon for him to victimize the innocent, penalize the victim for making any effort to defend himself, and then paint the whole supercilious affair as some great benefit to humanity. That's all I have time now to write. If you want to get more insight into Mr. Tom Bishop's mentality, though, then study the details of his manifestos. Try to see the big picture: It will amaze you. It will take your breath away. And it will convince you that Mr. Bishop, who has posed as Savior of the World, is nothing else but the world's seducer, its destroyer, its incendiary, and its executioner.

THE EARTH IS ROUND!!!!  If you want to prove it's flat, swim across it.

Sounds like Spinkz is back. 

Umm ok, then what happens if the "bacteria" build a tower, to be able to see further, without obstuctions? Would they be able to see the edge or the dinner table? Better yet, what happens if they climb the apple, the highest point on the table? it would be miles taller then any curve that causes obscurity. So what then? Would they see the edge of the table, since there's no obscurities?

Have you ever noticed that as you climb a mountain the line of the horizon seems to rise with you?

This is because the vanishing point is always at eye level with the observer. This is a very basic property of perspective. From a plane or a mountain, however high you ascend - the horizon will rise to your eye level. The next time you climb in altitude study the horizon closely and observe as it rises with your eye level.

The horizon will continue to rise with altitude, at eye level with the observer, until there is no more land to see.

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Umm ok, then what happens if the "bacteria" build a tower, to be able to see further, without obstuctions? Would they be able to see the edge or the dinner table? Better yet, what happens if they climb the apple, the highest point on the table? it would be miles taller then any curve that causes obscurity. So what then? Would they see the edge of the table, since there's no obscurities?

Have you ever noticed that as you climb a mountain the line of the horizon seems to rise with you?

This is because the vanishing point is always at eye level with the observer. This is a very basic property of perspective. From a plane or a mountain, however high you ascend - the horizon will rise to your eye level. The next time you climb in altitude study the horizon closely and observe as it rises with your eye level.

The horizon will continue to rise with altitude, at eye level with the observer, until there is no more land to see.

Which is funny because I just came back from a mountain-hiking trip this weekend. We travelled to a peak that was roughly 1000ft higher than the surrounding terrain. That afternoon, I could clearly see the lower lands around me...and the sun sinking beneath them.

Lame, Tom.

You've never been mountain-hiking in your life, otherwise you would know that the line of the horizon is always at eye level with the observer. This is a basic fact of perspective.

Please see Chapter 5 from the Perspective Drawing Handbook or one of these numerous Google references.

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Horizon line and Eye level

Anyone who has ever been to the seaside will have seen a horizon (as long as it wasn't foggy). This is the line you see far away, out to sea. It's the line where the water stops and the sky starts. There are horizon lines everywhere, but usually you don't see them because something like a hill or a tree or a house is in the way.

You always see the horizon line at your eye level. In fact, if you change your eye level (by standing up, or sitting down) the horizon line changes too, and follows your eye level. Your eye level always follows you around everywhere because it's your eye level. If you sit on the floor the horizon is at your eye level. If you stand up, it's at your eye level. If you stand on top of a very tall building, or look out of the window of an aeroplane, the horizon is still at your eye level. It's only everything else that appears to change in relation to your eye level. The fact is, that everything looks the way it does from your point of view because you see it in relation to yourself. So if you are sitting looking out of the window of an airliner everything is going to look shorter than you because at this moment you are taller (or higher) than everything else.

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One easy experiment you can do for yourself is find a computer game which can render large 3D maps. Move your character to one end of the map, center your crosshair on the line of the horizon, and turn on noclip. Without moving the mouse, ascend in height and notice how the line of the horizon will stay centered on the crosshair until you run out of land to see.

While a game is not comparable to life, this perspective effect should be apparent and visible in most modern computer games.

I think people just like to argue with you, Tom!

bishop will probably reply with his excellent  logic concerning the boat disappearing over the horizon

Dude, you can see into the future 

Why do planes seem to dissapear below the surface as they fly further and further away? If they stay at a constant height off the ground, why do they seem to go down as they fly away on flat terrain?

Perspective.

Actually Mr. Bishop has some good points. I will make a neutrality act with him! I shall not argue with him unless it's something really worth arguing about... but I won't agree with him unless it's something worth agreeing with him about... wow sounds weird...

Perspective cannot account for the obscuring of a large object like a plane (or the sun) unless it moves faaar away. I showed this already, please try to remember!

Perspective cannot account for the obscuring of a large object like a plane (or the sun) unless it moves faaar away. I showed this already, please try to remember!

Is the horizon not far away?

Why do planes seem to dissapear below the surface as they fly further and further away? If they stay at a constant height off the ground, why do they seem to go down as they fly away on flat terrain?

'

Because the Earth is round obviously.

Is the horizon not far away?

Yep, it sure it. But I have shown mathematically (about 6,543 times now) that the horizon would have to be further than the diameter of FE away before the Sun could approach within 5 degrees of it.

save it for easy copy/paste

Yea, that way you could explain it every 10 minutes like Tom Bishop does with BS.

1. The Sun is 3000 miles vertical distance from the Earth, equivalent to 4828 km (I prefer metric).

2. For the sun to set, let us assume it has to get within 5 degrees of the horizon (this is for wave crests etc. to take over, and is a very generous estimate. 5 degrees is quite large in the sky - 10 sun-widths up from the horizon). The sun has an angular size, RE and FE, of 0.52 degrees.

3. It is assumed in FET that sunset occurs by the sun moving further away, and, as Rowbotham said, apparently 'sinking' as a result of perspective.

4. Using an angle of 5 degrees to the horizon and 4828 km vertical elevation, we may deduce that when the sun is at this angle, the horizontal distance to it (the distance to the point at which it is directly overhead) is 4828/tan5  (opposite side divided by (opposite over adjacent) equals adjacent).

5. This places the sun at a horizontal distance of 55,184.3 km from the observer during sunset.

6. 55,184.3 km is well in excess of the diameter of the entire flat earth (around 40,000km - the pole-to-pole distance doubled), let alone the sun's supposed above-equator orbital path.

7. The sun must, during sunset, have moved at the very least 15,000 km away from the edge of the earth (assuming the sunset is over the FE from some point on the ice wall, in most cases e.g. USA the distance is much greater).

8. If it is this far away it is clearly not following a regular orbital path, as all countries must observe sunset once per day (excluding north pole/ice wall) and it cannot be this distance away from one country while being directly above another.

9. Two possible conclusions: the Earth is not flat, or the model of the sun, especially its rising and setting, is totally wrong.

Aha!

I am not gonna lie to you... I only understood a few things.

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Is the horizon not far away?

Yep, it sure it. But I have shown mathematically (about 6,543 times now) that the horizon would have to be further than the diameter of FE away before the Sun could approach within 5 degrees of it.

Were we not talking about planes?

Ah yes. FE has been shown wrong, but let's get back on topic quick! Otherwise someone might notice.

it is relevant to the planes going into the horizon.

Ah yes. FE has been shown wrong, but let's get back on topic quick! Otherwise someone might notice.

We were talking about planes but you chime in because it doesn't apply to the sun?  Nice.

Doesn't work with planes either...