Poll

What's God's alignment?

Lawful-Good
6 (18.8%)
Lawful-Neutral
1 (3.1%)
Lawful-Evil
1 (3.1%)
Neutral-Good
4 (12.5%)
Neutral-Neutral
4 (12.5%)
Neutral-Evil
1 (3.1%)
Chaotic-Good
3 (9.4%)
Chaotic-Neutral
5 (15.6%)
Chaotic-Evil
7 (21.9%)

Total Members Voted: 28

Voting closed: March 06, 2006, 12:43:58 PM

God's alignment

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Erasmus

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« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2006, 02:20:32 PM »
Quote from: "EnragedPenguin"
Well, he kinda created everything...you know. I'd say that's good (I'm enjoying it so far anyway).


That was nice of him I guess.  He could have made it a little less suffering-oriented though.  Would I be considered good if I put created a world for ants that was also infested with spiders?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Cinlef

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« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2006, 02:34:06 PM »
HMm I see your point but what if as most religions believe this world is just the prelude to Paradise?
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

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Erasmus

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« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2006, 05:20:15 PM »
Quote from: "Cinlef"
HMm I see your point but what if as most religions believe this world is just the prelude to Paradise?


As in, paradise wasn't quite nice enough, so he had to spruce up its image with, "Yeah, but look at where you're coming from..."?

So, Earth's not that great, and Heaven's not either.  What has God created that is really good?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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EnragedPenguin

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« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2006, 05:24:02 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
What has God created that is really good?


Me! :D (come on, you know it's true)
A different world cannot be built by indifferent people.

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Weerwolf

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« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2006, 02:49:44 AM »
Isnt the Good (or evil, or whatever) for how god sees the actions he does? I mean, otherwise it would be kind of useless, since everyone can have a different point of view.

God, as far as I know, doesn't do things "evil" in his opinion.

Then again, he did have a tree and saying he couldnt touch. I mean, wtf. He doesnt use the tree.. so why was it there? thats a bit evil though. All in all I do think he sees himself as good, with the occasional chaotic act? o_0

God's alignment
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2006, 08:23:22 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "the grim squeaker"
that poll the alingements were take from bulders gate campaign setting


Yes, I believe you are correct.

i have the game
i suck at it, whereas baulders gate dark alliance(1 or 2) i can win in three hours

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joffenz

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« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2006, 08:31:51 AM »
I prefer Neverwinter Nights, best DnD computer game in my opinion (it's the only one I've played ) :P

God's alignment
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2006, 08:36:43 AM »
lol
and your not on xfire

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Erasmus

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« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2006, 11:00:19 AM »
Quote from: "Weerwolf"
Isnt the Good (or evil, or whatever) for how god sees the actions he does? I mean, otherwise it would be kind of useless, since everyone can have a different point of view.


I think it's quite the opposite.  If we *define* God's actions as good, then we are suddenly disallowed from questioning those actions.

Plus, I think that while the definition of "good" among humans changes around the world, there's still some basically accepted notions of goodness (at least among civilized people) -- not oppressing people under your power, not being a mass-murderer, tolerating differences, encouraging others' personal growth, race/gender/lifestyle equality, etc.

I guess I should have been clear on that in the opening post.

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God, as far as I know, doesn't do things "evil" in his opinion.


Yeah, I'm interested in *your* opinions of his actions, not his own.

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Then again, he did have a tree and saying he couldnt touch. I mean, wtf. He doesnt use the tree.. so why was it there? thats a bit evil though.


That's a good point!  Its only function was as a vector for humans to sin.  Like rats in a maze.  "Will he take the apple?  Trial 174 begins..."

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Cinlef

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« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2006, 05:56:46 PM »
One could look as the tree as a symbol of Gods trust. Without it we'd be slaves. He put it there to give us the freedom to defy Him if we wanted to. Probably He assumed we wouldn't actually be stupid enought to take the fruit from the tree. Blasted snakes
An intrigued
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

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Erasmus

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« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2006, 07:20:39 PM »
Quote from: "Cinlef"
One could look as the tree as a symbol of Gods trust. Without it we'd be slaves. He put it there to give us the freedom to defy Him if we wanted to.


If without it we'd be slaves, then we were slaves anyway.  Rebellion isn't something that the master offers his slaves.

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Probably He assumed we wouldn't actually be stupid enought to take the fruit from the tree.


This just detracts even more from his offer of "freedom", if our only option for freedom is a stupid option.  It also shows that it wasn't trust he was demonstrating; he was betting that we *wouldn't* take it, not because he said not to, but because doing so is, for some reason, stupid.

On that note, why was it stupid to eat from the Tree?  It was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, don't forget.  Without the apple, Adam and Eve were basically children.  Eating the fruit of the Tree was their passage into maturity.

If God really wanted to show that he trusted us, he might have made available something that is actually *beneficial* to us, but was disallowed anyway.  Like maybe some sort of godly powers -- ability to create new, miniature, short-lived universes or something.  Or, he could have allowed Satan to offer it, so that to take it would really be to betray God.  But no, he offered us, essentially, a kick in the head.  What sort of trust is that?

Anyway, I don't think it was meant to be a show of trust.  I think the whole story is a metaphor for the maturing of civilization, analogous to the maturity of individuals; loss of innocence.  Gives the idea that there's something better than the current world that we once had, and that with work, we can return to.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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6strings

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« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2006, 02:53:31 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
As in, paradise wasn't quite nice enough, so he had to spruce up its image with, "Yeah, but look at where you're coming from..."?

So, Earth's not that great, and Heaven's not either. What has God created that is really good?

This seems to be quite a leap here...what made you draw this conclusion?  
As Alexander Dumas said "There is neither happiness nor misery in the world; there is only the comparison of one state with another, nothing more. He who has felt the deepest grief is best able to experience supreme happiness."
If we hadn't experienced hardship here on earth, we'd never know how great paradise is, and we'd just be walking around in it going "sure, this is good, but I mean, there's got to be something better!" even though it's the best possible thing in (or out of) the world.

Quote from: "Erasmus"
If God really wanted to show that he trusted us, he might have made available something that is actually *beneficial* to us, but was disallowed anyway. Like maybe some sort of godly powers -- ability to create new, miniature, short-lived universes or something. Or, he could have allowed Satan to offer it, so that to take it would really be to betray God. But no, he offered us, essentially, a kick in the head. What sort of trust is that?

I'm not that well versed in the Bible, but I was under the impression that the snake that gave them the apple was Satan, or at least symbolic of him.  Also, I don't think the story of Adam and Eve is meant to be a literal documentation of how man came to be...

Just my two cents, keep up the good work everyone :D

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Erasmus

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« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2006, 08:47:51 PM »
Quote from: "6strings"
This seems to be quite a leap here...what made you draw this conclusion?
As Alexander Dumas said "There is neither happiness nor misery in the world; there is only the comparison of one state with another, nothing more. He who has felt the deepest grief is best able to experience supreme happiness."
If we hadn't experienced hardship here on earth, we'd never know how great paradise is, and we'd just be walking around in it going "sure, this is good, but I mean, there's got to be something better!" even though it's the best possible thing in (or out of) the world.


That's a great quote, and I think Dumas has a lot to teach.  However, I think it doesn't scale well.  "Comparative goodness" works fine for everyday occurrences: if every day was pretty good, then no days would be *really* good.  Only in comparison with those not-so-great days is it possible to really enjoy life (seems to me to be Dumas' claim, which I agree with to an extent).

However, human caprice doesn't extend indefinitely.  There are biological pleasure/displeasure switches, which if turned on, just plain make you feel good.  Even if you were already feeling pretty okay, certain chemicals in your bloodstream would still make you feel like things are really, absolutely, objectively good.  Neural activity in a certain region of the brain will make you feel pleasure.  There was an experiment with a mouse where they stuck an electrode into this part of the brain and wired it to a pressure plate in the mouse's cage.  When she pressed it, she got a jolt of pleasure.  She basically kept pressing it until she starved to death.

I don't suggest that humans are as simple as mice and will react the exact same way, but my point is, if God wanted to, he could make us feel good, all the time, even in the absence of something bad to compare it to.  It wouldn't even take much magic; the machinery for it is already there (and, presumably, he knew what made it tick).  I suggest that Dumas' claim, while germane to the lives of you and me, doesn't apply to the Garden of Eden or to Heaven.

In any case, if it were true, then wouldn't you get bored in Heaven, having such a good time all the time?

Quote from: "Erasmus"
If God really wanted to show that he trusted us, he might have made available something that is actually *beneficial* to us, but was disallowed anyway. Like maybe some sort of godly powers -- ability to create new, miniature, short-lived universes or something. Or, he could have allowed Satan to offer it, so that to take it would really be to betray God. But no, he offered us, essentially, a kick in the head. What sort of trust is that?


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I'm not that well versed in the Bible, but I was under the impression that the snake that gave them the apple was Satan, or at least symbolic of him.


You're right, it was Satan.  But I was trying to indicate that making the Apple available wasn't a very good demonstration of his trust for us.  The hypothetical thing that I'm suggesting Satan might have offered should have been something that was *actually* good for us, as opposed to something that would make us mortal, experience pain, have to work, and get us kicked out of the Garden.

I guess you can look at it in the sense that God allowed Satan to tempt us with it; Satan told Eve that eating the Apple would make her just like God (which I guess is what I was suggesting).  So if that was Satan's idea, then we get back to "Not a demonstration of God's truts, since God didn't make Adam and Eve believe that it was something they wanted."  On the other hand, if it was God's idea (a la book of Job, where God allows Satan to test Job's piety by inflicting horrible misfortunes upon him), then far from being a demonstration of God's trust for us, it shows that God *didn't* trust us, and needed to test us.

Bottom line, I don't think the Tree is a demonstration of God's trust or faith in humanity, which is what Cinlef was suggesting.

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Also, I don't think the story of Adam and Eve is meant to be a literal documentation of how man came to be...


Whatever.  Treat it as a metaphor for... whatever you like.  Early Man took some liberty that he was told not to take, and was punished for it.  Maybe it was the use of fire.  Who knows.  We can still ask, "Why was it prohibted?  Why was the punishment so dire?  What was God's motivation in... well, in anything he did?"

And I can keep asking, "What has God done for us that was so great, especially when compared with the things he might have done instead?"

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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flyingleaf

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« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2006, 09:54:42 PM »
But the Tree of Knowledge did not impart mortality to Adam and Eve.  They were mortal to begin with.  The betrayal of trust meant that God did not also want them to eat from the Tree of Life, which would have given them immortality.

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Erasmus

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« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2006, 09:45:21 AM »
Quote from: "flyingleaf"
But the Tree of Knowledge did not impart mortality to Adam and Eve.  They were mortal to begin with.  The betrayal of trust meant that God did not also want them to eat from the Tree of Life, which would have given them immortality.


Erm... I'm not sure that that's right.  Most obviously, Adam and Eve certainly did eat the fruit, and certainly did not end up immortal afterwards.  In addition:

Quote from: "Genesis 3"
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.


In general, I wonder if you could clarify this sentence:

Quote from: "flyingleaf"
The betrayal of trust meant that God did not also want them to eat from the Tree of Life ...


Also, I think that the tree is properly called the Tree of Knowledge (sometimes, "of Good and Evil").  The Tree of Life is something else from Kabbalah.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

God's alignment
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2006, 01:00:38 PM »
if god were good then why would he let people die?
and why would he let deseade happen?
and desarters?
and fammines?
and war?

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Erasmus

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« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2006, 01:08:15 PM »
Quote from: "the grim squeaker"
if god were good then why would he let people die?
and why would he let deseade happen?
and desarters?
and fammines?
and war?


As for war, I think that's a choice that humans make, and if you had the power to somehow force humans not to make that choice, and used that power, you might not be considered "good".

I don't know was desarters are.... if you mean deserters, well yes, that's not nice, but I'd hardly say it ranks up there with famine, war, and disease.

As for famine and disease, yes, it's curious that God allows these things to occur.  It has been suggested in this thread that he allows it so that we have something better to look forward to, but I'm not impressed by this justification.  It might also be the case that these things are punishments for our sinful nature, and that somehow, punishment is a good thing.... hmm...

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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6strings

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« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2006, 01:16:03 PM »
Actually, I think the word he was looking for was "disasters", but without speecifying what kind of disasters I'm not really sure how to answer that one.

Death, on the other hand, isn't necessarily a bad thing, it could even be good, as then you'd get to be closer to God.

Famines, however, seem to be God's fault only in that he doesn't actively prevent them (I'd assume since he doesn't want to mess with free will), they're largely the result of overpopulation and the plain greed of people who do have food.

I'd hazard a guess that disease and disasters are permitted because they allow us to show our virtues, such as courage and compassion for our neighbor (a la Screwtape Letters).

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HiveLord

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« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2006, 01:24:57 PM »
I don't know about his alignment, but I do know he has a kick-ass quarterstaff of smiting.

And ADOM is the best game.

God's alignment
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2006, 08:58:35 PM »
I'd say neutral good because he defiently sets down laws but he doesn't enforce them incredibly stricly, he gives people a chance for forginess
size=18] I'm Hungry[/size]

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troubadour

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« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2006, 02:36:42 AM »
Neutral Neutral.

Why do bad things happen to good people? because we are the ones making distinctions between bad and good. What is good to one person can be bad to another. Whoever or Whatever created the universe, if there is/was a creator, just set the laws and boundry conditions and let it go on it's own, not interfering. Do you really think that in this vast and enormus space, that a higher being would really care about a tiny speck in a group of trillions of tiny specks? If it does, they haven't shown that they care for us like we care for each other, letting us nuke each other, starting wars, letting us die to plagues and other horrible catastrophes. If there is a creator then, they really are neutral because they do not interfere.

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Cinlef

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« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2006, 05:34:16 PM »
Why is noniterference viewed as neautral. Most people value their personal freedom and view governmenets that permitt perrsonal freedom as good. Yet take an omnipotent being who gives people freedom to make choices (clearly not acting out of self-interest as some democratic countries which permit freedom to avoid unrest) and we refer to him as neutra.
Odd in a society wherein fanatics who enforce morality on people agaisnt their will are commonly viewed as evil
A double standard perhaps?
An enraged
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

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Dead Kangaroo

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Re: God's alignment
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2008, 04:54:45 AM »
If a god (or gods) exist then they are certainly doing everything for teh lulz.