Poll

What are you?

I'm FE creationist
9 (5.1%)
I'm FE evolutionist
16 (9.1%)
I'm RE creationist
21 (12%)
I'm RE evolutionist
99 (56.6%)
I'm a candy on a stick
30 (17.1%)

Total Members Voted: 129

Voting closed: March 06, 2006, 09:04:59 AM

Which camp are you in? POLL

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Which camp are you in? POLL
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2006, 07:08:51 AM »
Quote from: "EnragedPenguin"
Googlesearch, are you a christian? and if so do you take the bible literally?

Yes I am.
Yes, I do.

Are you? and Do you?

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« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2006, 07:12:36 AM »
Quote from: "Cinlef"


I for the record was talking about the Old testament. The New Testament is well Gospel.
An devout and amused at his clever word play
Cinlef


Does this mean you believe in New testiment but not the Old one?

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« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2006, 08:52:42 AM »
Quote from: "googleSearch"
I did, and I stand by my statement. If you think otherwise you (and all those people who think the same way) either don't know evolution very well, or you don't know bible very well. That is if you take your god from the bible, if not than I guess your god can be anything you imagine him to be.

The concept of God that the Bible puts forth is not the only possible concept of God.
nd that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped.

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EnragedPenguin

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« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2006, 09:33:49 AM »
Quote from: "googleSearch"

Are you? and Do you?


Sort of...

No, not really.

I had figured you probably were I just wanted to make certain. I try not to assume anything.
A different world cannot be built by indifferent people.

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« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2006, 10:34:03 AM »
Quote from: "Pesto"

The concept of God that the Bible puts forth is not the only possible concept of God.


No, certanly not. You can get the concept of god you want in your mind, in the book you read, heck, you can even write your own bible. BUT it wouldn't be the same God of the Bible. You can believe in god that used the big bang and evolution to get you here, but it wouldn't be the God of the Bible.

So the question is: why bother with god like that? just stick to evolution altogether!

God of the Bible doesn't have gray, it's either black or white. Either you believe the whole thing or don't even bother.

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« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2006, 10:36:09 AM »
Quote from: "EnragedPenguin"


Sort of...


How? What sorts do you accept and which you reject and why?

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« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2006, 11:12:18 AM »
Quote from: "googleSearch"
Quote from: "Pesto"

The concept of God that the Bible puts forth is not the only possible concept of God.


No, certanly not. You can get the concept of god you want in your mind, in the book you read, heck, you can even write your own bible. BUT it wouldn't be the same God of the Bible. You can believe in god that used the big bang and evolution to get you here, but it wouldn't be the God of the Bible.

So the question is: why bother with god like that? just stick to evolution altogether!

God of the Bible doesn't have gray, it's either black or white. Either you believe the whole thing or don't even bother.

I was just saying that evolution does nothing to destroy God.  It destroys a God that created the universe 6000 years ago with all "types" of animals intact, but not God.  My point is that evolution and belief in God are not mutually exclusive, because the God taken from a literal interpretation of the Bible is not the only possible God.
nd that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped.

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« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2006, 12:21:18 PM »
Quote
Quote
Right cheesejoff. googlesearch my original statement was made because of all the various interpretaions of God (not limited to the Bible). However, I take it further than that and believe that many parts of the Bible are to be taken metaphorically. Furthermore, I like to keep in mind that humans wrote the Bible. If God had written the Bible perhaps I'd believe everything in it. But he didn't. If you argue that he did write it by some sort of divine intervention then I won't argue. I'll say this though: when I write a new addition (or edition if you look at it that way) to the Bible, you can't claim that it was written by me. It must be accepted that God wrote it through me.


That is brilliant, espesially the "not limited to the Bible" part. So, how do you choose which parts are to be taken metaphorically and which are not? Which parts of the bible do you believe in?


Brilliant...I do agree.  I don't choose, a higher power chooses for me
ooyakasha!

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EnragedPenguin

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« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2006, 03:26:38 PM »
Quote from: "googleSearch"
Quote from: "EnragedPenguin"


Sort of...


How? What sorts do you accept and which you reject and why?


I don't actually reject any of it, it's just my belief that almost all religions are in fact worshipping the same God, just in different ways, I don't believe that there's any 'better' or 'worse' way to do it. So I'm "sort of" a christian, and I'm also "sort of" any other religion.
A different world cannot be built by indifferent people.

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« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2006, 11:46:44 PM »
Quote from: "googleSearch"
Quote from: "Pesto"

The concept of God that the Bible puts forth is not the only possible concept of God.


No, certanly not. You can get the concept of god you want in your mind, in the book you read, heck, you can even write your own bible. BUT it wouldn't be the same God of the Bible. You can believe in god that used the big bang and evolution to get you here, but it wouldn't be the God of the Bible.

So the question is: why bother with god like that? just stick to evolution altogether!

God of the Bible doesn't have gray, it's either black or white. Either you believe the whole thing or don't even bother.

Do you have money in the bank or wear mixed fabrics? Leviticus prohibits that.

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« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2006, 07:17:19 AM »
Quote from: "logic!"

Do you have money in the bank or wear mixed fabrics? Leviticus prohibits that.


Many of those laws were chenged by Jesus.

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« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2006, 07:19:00 AM »
Quote from: "Knight"
I don't choose, a higher power chooses for me


What does that mean?

Re: Which camp are you in? POLL
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2006, 07:25:36 AM »
BTW did you notice that 15% of people on this forum are suckers (candy on a stick)
 :lol:

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« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2006, 10:03:30 AM »
Quote
Quote
I don't choose, a higher power chooses for me


What does that mean?


Exactly what it sounds like it means.  It means that the choice doesn't have to be made by myself.  I will believe what God "tells" me to believe (though not audibly).  

By the way, you seem to be quite a fundamentalist.  However, I advise you away from the idea that the God in the Bible is different than the God that somebody else worships who doesn't believe everything in the Bible is to be taken literally.  The words of man confuse you into thinking that you are the authority on deciding what defines God.
ooyakasha!

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« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2006, 08:57:50 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
Exactly what it sounds like it means.  It means that the choice doesn't have to be made by myself.  I will believe what God "tells" me to believe (though not audibly).


You are mistaken, you always have a choice. God presents you with an opportunity so as devil and YOU are the one that has to make the choice.

Adam was given a choice to disobey God, which he did. Job was given a choice, even encouraged by the devil to turn away from God, which he didn't. You and only you have a choice.

Quote from: "Knight"

By the way, you seem to be quite a fundamentalist.  However, I advise you away from the idea that the God in the Bible is different than the God that somebody else worships who doesn't believe everything in the Bible is to be taken literally.  The words of man confuse you into thinking that you are the authority on deciding what defines God.


See, you are wrong again, it is you who is mislead by other people into thinking of old Earth, of evolution, of big bang, of all the things that changed your understanding of God away from that of the Bible; whereas I get my understanding of God from the Bible that was written by people who were inspired by God.
History is full of examples of how people tried to change the Bible the way that fits them: Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses, and many other. They no longer read Bible but instead they wrote their own principles and books that they follow, and that took them ways away from God of the Bible.

So, no, dear Knight, it is you who relies on other people's decisions and definitions of God, not me. I get my definitions from the only book that has authority to do so.

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EnragedPenguin

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« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2006, 09:14:01 PM »
Quote from: "googleSearch"
So, no, dear Knight, it is you who relies on other people's decisions and definitions of God, not me. I get my definitions from the only book that has authority to do so.


What gives it that authority? why is it any more valid than that of any other religion on earth?
A different world cannot be built by indifferent people.

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« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2006, 09:29:35 PM »
Quote from: "googleSearch"
Quote from: "logic!"

Do you have money in the bank or wear mixed fabrics? Leviticus prohibits that.


Many of those laws were chenged by Jesus.

Please tell me where Leviticus was superseded. Did he specifically eliminate that part of the Old Testament?

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« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2006, 10:05:20 AM »
Quote from: "logic!"

Please tell me where Leviticus was superseded. Did he specifically eliminate that part of the Old Testament?


Not all laws of the Liviticus were superseded, just some of them, and it is found all over the New Testiment.

And what does this fact haveto do with my argument? I never claimed I was without sin.

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« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2006, 10:27:45 AM »
Quote from: "EnragedPenguin"

What gives it that authority? why is it any more valid than that of any other religion on earth?


Because it is the primary book that you got the idea of God in the first place, same as quran has the primary idea of Allah and so on.
If you don't like the idea of God of the Bible, you could change it to fit your needs, but it wouldn't be the same god anymore, and you shouldn't call it the same and moreover claim that the original is incorrect.

Everyone is convinced that their religion is valid, so as I. And there are many reasons why I think that. I can share them with you if you'd like.

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Erasmus

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« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2006, 11:10:08 AM »
Quote from: "googleSearch"
Because it is the primary book that you got the idea of God in the first place, same as quran has the primary idea of Allah and so on.


Who is "you" in that sentence?  I'm pretty sure the idea of gods was around before the idea of bibles, and was passed down by oral tradition.  There exist cultures today that have no writing but still have gods.  The Bible and the Qu'ran are "secondary" sources about gods, in that they are the result of somebody recording older oral traditions.

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If you don't like the idea of God of the Bible, you could change it to fit your needs, but it wouldn't be the same god anymore, and you shouldn't call it the same and moreover claim that the original is incorrect.


Why shouldn't you make that claim?

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Everyone is convinced that their religion is valid, so as I. And there are many reasons why I think that. I can share them with you if you'd like.


Okay, this I have to hear.  Why do you think your religion is valid?  And don't lead me around in circles; I get dizzy.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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EnragedPenguin

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« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2006, 02:27:04 PM »
Quote from: "googleSearch"
Everyone is convinced that their religion is valid, so as I. And there are many reasons why I think that. I can share them with you if you'd like.


I didn't ask you to tell me why the religion itself is valid, you had said the bible is the only book with the authority to define God, I want to know why it's definition is more valid than the definition of any other religions writtings.
A different world cannot be built by indifferent people.

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« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2006, 05:26:51 PM »
Quote from: "EnragedPenguin"


I didn't ask you to tell me why the religion itself is valid, you had said the bible is the only book with the authority to define God, I want to know why it's definition is more valid than the definition of any other religions writtings.


Because it is the oldest, the original, less corrupt than others. People that wrote it were first hand witnesses, they wrote down what they saw and felt. They are the tellers of the story, not a guy that is born years later and decided to change it according to his wishes.

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« Reply #52 on: March 16, 2006, 05:40:21 PM »
And the others don't have this view too?

"No, don't worry about Bhuddism. We just made it up to imress the girls."
img]http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a330/Akapvaious/Sensei.jpg[/img]

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« Reply #53 on: March 16, 2006, 05:51:35 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"


Who is "you" in that sentence?  I'm pretty sure the idea of gods was around before the idea of bibles, and was passed down by oral tradition.  There exist cultures today that have no writing but still have gods.  The Bible and the Qu'ran are "secondary" sources about gods, in that they are the result of somebody recording older oral traditions.


Since people that witnessed events described in the Bible are no longer around, Bible becomes "the primary" source.

Quote from: "Erasmus"

Okay, this I have to hear.  Why do you think your religion is valid?  And don't lead me around in circles; I get dizzy.


I heard ginger pills will prevent dizziness, you should get some.

I believe in God of the Bible. I believe God created everything in 6 days around 6K-10K years ago. I believe 4K years ago there was a flood that destroyed everything. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe he is a son of God that was without sin and died on the cross for sins of all who will accept him. I also believe Bible to be scientifically accurate. These are good reasons for me.

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Erasmus

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« Reply #54 on: March 16, 2006, 06:11:14 PM »
Quote from: "googleSearch"
Because it is the oldest,


How do you know this?

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the original,


Actually, both Judeaism and Christianity are highly derivative.  They both take much of their mysticism and liturgy from other, older religions.  Most of the Hebrew rituals are taken from pagan rituals.  Christianity takes many pagan rituals as well, and much of it is very similar to both Zoroastrianism and the teachings of the Jewish Essene sect.

So no, it's not particularly original.

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less corrupt than others.


Corrupt in what way?  There have been plenty of corrupt church leaders throughout history, up to the present day.  If you mean less corrupt in terms of doctrine, then what do you think about the notion of the apostolic councils?  Also, how do you know  that information wasn't lost along with way?

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People that wrote it were first hand witnesses,


Again, how do you know?  Even if Genesis were signed by Adam and Noah and Moses,   that wouldn't mean that Adam and Noah and Moses actually penned it.

Also, quite a bit of the New Testament is not written by people who ever met Jesus.  For example, Luke, who wrote a Gospel and the Acts of the Apostles, was a follower of Paul, who was doing his thing after Jesus died.

Next, there are passages in the Bible which simply could not be actual accounts of what happened.  My favourite is the scene where Jesus speaks to God in the garden of Gethsemene.... nobody was around to hear that soliloquy, and immediately upon its conclusion, Jesus was arrested and killed.

Furthermore, much of the New Testament was written over thirty years after Jesus died.  

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They are the tellers of the story, not a guy that is born years later and decided to change it according to his wishes.


So yeah, turns out that some of it at least was written by a guy that is born years later.  Furthermore, councils of people had to get together to decide what was going into the Bible, and what wasn't.  How do you know they got it "right?"  How do you know they didn't manipulate the results for political purposes?

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I believe in God of the Bible. I believe God created everything in 6 days around 6K-10K years ago. I believe 4K years ago there was a flood that destroyed everything. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe he is a son of God that was without sin and died on the cross for sins of all who will accept him. I also believe Bible to be scientifically accurate. These are good reasons for me.


So, basically, you believe that the Bible is true because you believe that the Bible is true.  Nice.  Guess I'm gonna need some of those ginger pills after all.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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EnragedPenguin

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« Reply #55 on: March 16, 2006, 07:08:53 PM »
I'd reply, but Erasmus already did a much better job than I could do so I wont bother.
A different world cannot be built by indifferent people.

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« Reply #56 on: March 16, 2006, 08:01:58 PM »
Here we go, start pickig things word by word...


Quote from: "Erasmus"

How do you know this?


Because Mormonism and Jehovah’s witnesses were not around in 1600, Bible was.

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Actually, both Judeaism and Christianity are highly derivative.  They both take much of their mysticism and liturgy from other, older religions.  Most of the Hebrew rituals are taken from pagan rituals.  Christianity takes many pagan rituals as well, and much of it is very similar to both Zoroastrianism and the teachings of the Jewish Essene sect.

So no, it's not particularly original.


Similar doesn't mean "taken from". And how do YOU know that there are older religions than Christianity? How do you know rituals were taken from other religions? I don't think you were there at that time.

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Corrupt in what way?  There have been plenty of corrupt church leaders throughout history, up to the present day.  If you mean less corrupt in terms of doctrine, then what do you think about the notion of the apostolic councils?  Also, how do you know  that information wasn't lost along with way?

It can become corrupt in the way that changes the original meaning of the words. In Israel of old times, Bible copying process was very important business and had incredible quality assurance. Copies had to be identical to the last letter. Of course it is hard to do when the book is translated to a different language, so sometime in 16 century there were too many translations of the Bible, some of them were corrupt, so King James ordered a new translation from Hebrew, which I think is the closest to the original as you can get.

I agree with you that leaders and councils can become corrupt, that is why I don’t listen to people but get my doctrine from the book directly.

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Again, how do you know?  Even if Genesis were signed by Adam and Noah and Moses,   that wouldn't mean that Adam and Noah and Moses actually penned it.


Actually it would, that’s why they signed it.

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Also, quite a bit of the New Testament is not written by people who ever met Jesus.  For example, Luke, who wrote a Gospel and the Acts of the Apostles, was a follower of Paul, who was doing his thing after Jesus died.


It also contains the story of Paul, who was there with Jesus, and his story matches Luke's

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Next, there are passages in the Bible which simply could not be actual accounts of what happened.  My favourite is the scene where Jesus speaks to God in the garden of Gethsemene.... nobody was around to hear that soliloquy, and immediately upon its conclusion, Jesus was arrested and killed.


And how do you know nobody was there? Solders didn't appear out of thin air they had to walk up to him, they could have heard and saw what Jesus was doing and saying as they were walking toward him, also some of the Jesus’ pupils were there and tried to defend Jesus, they probably were near by as well.

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Furthermore, much of the New Testament was written over thirty years after Jesus died.


So? People still write books about WW2 and holocaust, so what?

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So yeah, turns out that some of it at least was written by a guy that is born years later.  

Again, It doesn't contradict previous writings. Perfectly acceptable.

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Furthermore, councils of people had to get together to decide what was going into the Bible, and what wasn't.  How do you know they got it "right?"  How do you know they didn't manipulate the results for political purposes?


I'm sure those people were not politicians, but religious leaders.
All of the stories were talking about the same thing, I think it was the matter of picking the ones that were easier to read, or maybe ones that were in better physical shape than others.

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So, basically, you believe that the Bible is true because you believe that the Bible is true.  Nice.  Guess I'm gonna need some of those ginger pills after all.


I believe in Bible because it hasn't been proven wrong. And whatever "science" pushes as alternative (big bang and evolution) has not been proven right.

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« Reply #57 on: March 16, 2006, 11:45:39 PM »
So many juicy things to tear apart.  I had to jump in before Erasmus wakes up for the day:

Quote from: "googleSearch"
Because Mormonism and Jehovah’s witnesses were not around in 1600, Bible was.

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Similar doesn't mean "taken from". And how do YOU know that there are older religions than Christianity? How do you know rituals were taken from other religions? I don't think you were there at that time.

Neither were you.  How do you know which religion is older?

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...so sometime in 16 century there were too many translations of the Bible, some of them were corrupt, so King James ordered a new translation from Hebrew, which I think is the closest to the original as you can get.

Ha ha ha!  Somewhere out there, a biblical scholar is spinning in his grave.

If I recall correctly, the KJV was not translated from the Aramaic but rather the Greek version. The Old Testament translations were all kinds of messed up.  Granted, the New Testament was pretty much already written in Greek, but there were mistranslations even there.  For example, the "mustard tree" that grew from a "mustard seed", such a popular term in Christianity, neither existed in the Middle-East region in Biblical times, nor is it a 'Tree' by any definition of the word (mustard is a shrub plant, at the most).

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Actually it would, that’s why they signed it.


Whoa... You have a Bible signed by Adam, Noah, and Moses?  You should sell that sucker on eBay!

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It also contains the story of Paul, who was there with Jesus, and his story matches Luke's

I'm disappointed.  I thought you have read your Scriptures.  Paul was named Saul before his conversion, before which he prosecuted the Early Christians fanatically.  Luke was a follower.  Neither Paul nor Luke has ever seen Jesus in person during their lifetime.

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And how do you know nobody was there? (Regarding the soliloquy in the Garden before Jesus's capture)

Again, if you read your Scriptures, you'd known that it specifically states that Jesus left the diciples to go pray alone, came back to find them sleeping, and scolded them for it.  Judas did not lead the soldiers to Jesus until after He got back to the diciples.

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So? People still write books about WW2 and holocaust, so what?

Man.. don't go there.  Especially with some Holocaust deniers hanging around here sometimes.

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(Regarding Bible's compilation) I'm sure those people were not politicians, but religious leaders.
All of the stories were talking about the same thing, I think it was the matter of picking the ones that were easier to read, or maybe ones that were in better physical shape than others.

So why aren't you Catholic?  The Council of Trent was composed of the top religious leaders of the time, and they chose what went into the Catholic version of the Bible (which is the original version, BTW).  The Protestant Bible was the version picked by Martin Luther.  It's one man vs. a whole Council.  Who are you going to believe in?  :)

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Erasmus

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« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2006, 01:35:46 AM »
Wow, flyingleaf pretty much hit all the good points, but...

Quote from: "flyingleaf"
Quote from: "googleSearch"
Because Mormonism and Jehovah’s witnesses were not around in 1600, Bible was.

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Similar doesn't mean "taken from". And how do YOU know that there are older religions than Christianity? How do you know rituals were taken from other religions? I don't think you were there at that time.

Neither were you.  How do you know which religion is older?


Egads, googleSearch, do you really believe that Christianity predates the ancient religions of Babylon, Assyria, Egypt, Greece, Rome, and er, Judea?  and the pagan religions of northern Europe?  and India?  and the far East?  and central Africa?  and Native America?

Or have you simply never heard of them before?

Quote from: "googleSearch"
(Regarding Bible's compilation) I'm sure those people were not politicians, but religious leaders.


What's the difference?

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All of the stories were talking about the same thing, I think it was the matter of picking the ones that were easier to read, or maybe ones that were in better physical shape than others.


Er, no, they were pretty explicitly about deciding whose dogma was dogma, and who was a heretic.

I think you are living in a fantasy world.... your doctrines and their sources are not so clean-cut as you imagine.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2006, 09:54:22 AM »
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So? People still write books about WW2 and holocaust, so what?


Yes, but don't we call those.... secondary sources?

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I'm sure those people were not politicians, but religious leaders.


Learn about the Council of Nicaea in 325.  Constantine was the Roman Emperor, and it was he who called the council of the church.  That's when they put to a vote whether or not Jesus was, in fact, God or just the son of God.  The theory that he was God won the vote and it became orthodox.  Jesus' divinity was decided in the year 325.
ooyakasha!