The United Nations - Success or Failure?

Revisionist history…more fun than the FES! 

I love the word 'reform' because it reminds me of those trips to Thailand some people take to have their male form reformed to a female form.

hah

To comment

Quote from: GeneralGayness on April 23, 2007, 04:16:46 PM

Fact is that while the big 5 still have the veto the UN is going to remain powerless to that certain extent. Not just Bush that ignored the UN, America has a history of being a complete arse.

Truth. I dunno, I just find it crappy that they couldn't do shit about him speeding into Iraq with no one's permission.

~D-Draw

Most wars tend to be speeding into someone else's country with no one's consent. Hitler went behind Britain and France at the start of WWII after saying that he wouldn't attack them if he could just take a country hear and there.

bah I really have to start my UN essay...anyone got any comments on the start of the UN? And what it learnt from the failure of the League?

To comment

Quote from: DiegoDraw on April 23, 2007, 06:24:03 PM

Quote from: GeneralGayness on April 23, 2007, 04:16:46 PM

Fact is that while the big 5 still have the veto the UN is going to remain powerless to that certain extent. Not just Bush that ignored the UN, America has a history of being a complete arse.

Truth. I dunno, I just find it crappy that they couldn't do shit about him speeding into Iraq with no one's permission.

~D-Draw

Most wars tend to be speeding into someone else's country with no one's consent. Hitler went behind Britain and France at the start of WWII after saying that he wouldn't attack them if he could just take a country hear and there.

Yes, except Hitler's regime was pre-UN. The UN was constructed specifically to STOP people from doing that.

~D-Draw

Hitler's regime was during the League though, which was supposed to do what the UN was supposed to do...

The UN isn't inneffective, depending on how you define effective. heres how it works:
1 Event occurs.
2 UN passes resolution.
3 USA supports or vetoes depending on what benefits them the most.
4 any major objectors (generally though not always small weak countries with oil) are threatened with      military action
5 Countries pass resolution to dispute the US, which they veto
6 The americans do whatever they want

the only difference the UN brings is it adds in steps 2-5. other than that, life is the same UN or not.

The UN can get round the veto using the General Assembly but it doesn't happen often

The UN can get round the veto using the General Assembly but it doesn't happen often

even if it does, USA disregards it, and still does what they want. No one has the power nor political means to stop them.

That's the problem. No one in the UN dares stand up to one of the big 5. It's happened plenty of times with Russia as well. Think ditching the veto would be a good step to take.

Wouldn't that, like, cause the big 5 to leave the U.N.?

That's the problem. No one in the UN dares stand up to one of the big 5. It's happened plenty of times with Russia as well. Think ditching the veto would be a good step to take.

Yes, yes it would. The big 5 idea doesnt allow for the changing world and changing powers; its too reflective of the just post ww2 era. but the world is a far different place now. but then, those with the veto arent about to give it up easily

Wouldn't that, like, cause the big 5 to leave the U.N.?

That will never happen. if it did, the UN would collapse, with no power behind it. another such organization would be created in its wake, and all the others would follow in line. its alot of work and change for nothing. it would be far simpler to just rework the UN, but they will never go for that.

Wouldn't that, like, cause the big 5 to leave the U.N.?

I doubt they'd leave now, way too involved.

And you're right Vilkata, they won't give it up easy, but hopefully reforms will be made at least going in that direction

Yeah that's what I meant!

To those many who believe the U.N. is a success: please describe how they've succeeded at the following goals

WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED

to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and

to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and

to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and

to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

AND FOR THESE ENDS

to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and

to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and

to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and

to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples,

To those many who believe the U.N. is a success: please describe how they've succeeded at the following goals

Quote from: UN Charter

WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED

to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and

to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and

to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and

to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

AND FOR THESE ENDS

to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and

to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and

to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and

to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples,

Not only have they failed miserably at all of that, but they have arguably made it worse. Before the UN, wars were generally between fairly equal powers, or rebellions against empires; 'tangible' enemies, direct reasons for war. Now, the wars are proxy wars against small relatively weak nations, with false reasons for invasion masking the strategic value of the area. when 2 nations fight now, it is either a small nations ethnically cleansing another/itself, or it is a world power fighting another power through proxy wars.

WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED

to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and it has been instrumental in helping bring to an end many wars. It's not a miracle worker though

to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and UN Human Rights Commission - admittedly has not done that much, but it does reinforce the efforts of private groups

to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and The International Court of Justice has had some successes as well

to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom, promoting is different from ensuring   but I'm sure I can look up some stuff on that

AND FOR THESE ENDS

to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and yeah that's a joke it seems

to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and they try hard..

to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and I've run out of sensible remarks

to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples, they got international machinary alright

Let's not forget they have the infinite stupidity of Mankind to overcome at the same time. Impossible task like the tasks they set themselves. Nice that they try though.