# Which way is up again?

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#### Theorist

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #180 on: August 08, 2008, 09:24:40 PM »
1: A bubble will go up in China
2: A bubble will go up in the United States
3: If the earth is round, bubbles will rise outwards from the earth
4: Since bubbles always rise up, the earth cannot be round

1 - True.
2 - True.
3 - True.
4 - False.

On a spherical earth, "up" is "outwards" hence negating all 4 points.

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#### narcberry

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #181 on: August 08, 2008, 09:26:47 PM »
Thanks for adding yet another possible RE definition of up.
How do you define "outwards"?

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#### mxmm

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #182 on: August 08, 2008, 09:29:50 PM »
Even on earth that doesn't make sense. Look at 3 scenarios:
1) In an elevator going away from the surface of earth. Your acceleration would be away from the center of earth.
2) Sitting in a chair, posting on FES. You are not accelerating away or towards the center of earth.
3) Jumping off something. Your acceleration would be towards the center of earth.

All 3 scenarios are quite likely. All 3 scenarios denote a different 'up' by RE'ers definitions.

Let me introduce the general principle of relativity (which Einstein uses in GR). One can not tell whether he is being accelerated by a rocket or by gravity without context. That is, an acceleration can be seen as gravity or as a spinning disc or as an accelerating rocket. I will fit that into my explanations.

1) If it is going away from the center of the earth, one feels an acceleration of greater than 1 g from the center of the earth. Hence, "up" is away from the center of the earth.

2) While you are sitting you are being accelerated by the ground below you away from earth at a rate of 1 g. Therefore up is away from the center of the earth.

3) We are talking about perceived accelerations, so in freefall, there is no "up." If everything were in freefall, bubbles would not have a definite "up" to go up to.

#### narcberry

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #183 on: August 08, 2008, 09:32:15 PM »
1g is not an acceleration, it's a force.
You lose.

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#### mxmm

• 136
##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #184 on: August 08, 2008, 09:39:25 PM »
1g is not an acceleration, it's a force.
You lose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-force

"g-force (also G-force, g-load) is a measurement of an object's acceleration expressed in gs." -Topic sentence

You lose.

EDIT: If you're really interested, I recommend tuning into one of the first few sentences: "Note that g-force is a misnomer, because it is about acceleration (m/s2)."
« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 09:41:26 PM by mxmm »

#### narcberry

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #185 on: August 08, 2008, 09:54:03 PM »
2) While you are sitting you are being accelerated by the ground below you away from earth at a rate of 1 g. Therefore up is away from the center of the earth.

Explain this. If 1g is an acceleration, why am I not accelerating towards the earths center? I seem to stay in my chair.

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#### mxmm

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #186 on: August 08, 2008, 09:58:30 PM »
2) While you are sitting you are being accelerated by the ground below you away from earth at a rate of 1 g. Therefore up is away from the center of the earth.

Explain this. If 1g is an acceleration, why am I not accelerating towards the earths center? I seem to stay in my chair.

Because instead of freefall, the ground is accelerating you upwards at the rate of 1 g. Anything that perfectly counters gravity makes you accelerate at this point. This makes more sense if you see gravity as an object retaining its inertia. You will not feel an acceleration to the the center of the earth simply because inertia, even if it is accelerating relative to objects around it, does not give you the perception of acceleration. It is freefall. However, when you perfectly counter this inertia (gravity) you sense an acceleration keeping you in the same place.

#### narcberry

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #187 on: August 08, 2008, 10:02:34 PM »
Sow how am I accelerating exactly?

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#### Theorist

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #188 on: August 08, 2008, 10:28:06 PM »
Thanks for adding yet another possible RE definition of up.
How do you define "outwards"?

In RE theory "outwards" and "up" are the same thing.

In FE theory I guess there is only "up" (as far as the acceleration goes, up is away from the force causing the acceleration upwards). This cannot be defined as "outwards" though, only "up" in FE theory.

You said, from RE theory:
"Since bubbles always rise up, the earth cannot be round"

In RE theory, up = outwards.

So then I guess you're right, in RE theory they have to use up to mean outwards and outwards to mean up, which makes less sense than than the FE theory. Occums Razor favours the FE theory in this case it seems, requiring more complications to explain this upwards = outwards claim in RE theory. Remember, the ONLY reason a RE'er would say up = outwards is because this is the only way they can make the RE theory stick - it doesn't really stick though when they are just claiming up = out because they are ALREADY claiming the earth is spherical. To claim that upwards = outwards (by the RE theorist) explains... nothing. All it explains is they think up = outwards, a convenient but wrong explanation, wrong in FE theory, right in RE theory.

Alright narcberry you win this one.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 02:42:05 PM by Theorist »
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#### narcberry

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #189 on: August 08, 2008, 10:31:41 PM »
Another victory for FE!!!

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#### bobbyg2

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #190 on: August 08, 2008, 10:52:34 PM »
This is ridiculous...

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#### mxmm

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #191 on: August 08, 2008, 11:02:56 PM »
Thanks for adding yet another possible RE definition of up.
How do you define "outwards"?

In RE theory "outwards" and "up" are the same thing.

In FE theory I guess there is only "up" (as far as the acceleration goes, up is away from the force causing the acceleration upwards). This cannot be defined as "outwards" though, only "up" in FE theory.

You said, from RE theory:
"Since bubbles always rise up, the earth cannot be round"

In RE theory, up = outwards.

So then I guess you're right, in RE theory they have to use up to mean outwards and outwards to mean up, which makes less sense than than the FE theory. Occums Razor favours the FE theory in this case it seems, requiring more complications to explain this upwards = outwards claim in RE theory. Remember, the ONLY reason a RE'er would say up = outwards is because this is the only way they can make the RE theory stick - it doesn't really stick though when they are just claiming up = out because they are ALREADY claiming the earth is spherical. To claim that upwards = outwards (by the RE theorist) explains... nothing. All it explains is they thing up = outwards, a convenient but wrong explanation, wrong in FE theory, right in RE theory.

Alright narcberry you win this one.

... Despite the fact that Occam's Razor is a logical fallacy, a complicated definition does not mean that a certain theory is inferior. It simply means that there is a more complicated web of basic things working together (e.g. gravity, buoyancy, etc.) Plus, if up is seen as the direction if acceleration then there wouldn't be a problem with the bubble in both theories, making this entire argument rather moot.

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#### cbarnett97

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #192 on: August 09, 2008, 01:11:22 AM »
Another victory for FE!!!
here is a good hypothetical "up" question for you:  You are deep sea diving and there is no light whatsoever and due to the currents undderwater you get spun in every direction for 10 minutes, after you stop you must point "up", which way do you point?
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

#### WardoggKC130FE

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #193 on: August 09, 2008, 03:03:45 AM »
Another victory for FE!!!
here is a good hypothetical "up" question for you:  You are deep sea diving and there is no light whatsoever and due to the currents undderwater you get spun in every direction for 10 minutes, after you stop you must point "up", which way do you point?

Whichever way the bubbles go.

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#### cbarnett97

• 2746
##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #194 on: August 09, 2008, 03:09:00 AM »
Another victory for FE!!!
here is a good hypothetical "up" question for you:  You are deep sea diving and there is no light whatsoever and due to the currents undderwater you get spun in every direction for 10 minutes, after you stop you must point "up", which way do you point?

Whichever way the bubbles go.
you are wearing a rebreather
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

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#### ghazwozza

• 942
##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #195 on: August 09, 2008, 05:48:45 AM »
Stop this madness, people! Narcberry seems unable to understand that all the definitions we have given are equivalent in most circumstances, so let's just get one definition for "up" and make Narc shut up with his moronic questions. So how's this:

"Up" is opposite to the direction a free object accelerates due to gravity (or gravitation, to use Engy's terms).

Can we all agree on this?

#### Parsifal

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #196 on: August 09, 2008, 05:51:23 AM »
Can we all agree on this?

No. Inertial objects do not accelerate.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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#### ghazwozza

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #197 on: August 09, 2008, 06:13:54 AM »
Can we all agree on this?

No. Inertial objects do not accelerate.

Just for a second, can we work in a Newtonian system? I can't be bothered to redefine "up" to work with GR.

#### Parsifal

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #198 on: August 09, 2008, 06:22:37 AM »
No. Inertial objects do not accelerate.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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#### bobbyg2

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #199 on: August 09, 2008, 10:13:21 AM »
They do when gravity pulls on them.

#### Parsifal

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #200 on: August 09, 2008, 10:14:36 AM »
They do when gravity pulls on them.

Fictitious forces usually don't pull on things very strongly.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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#### bobbyg2

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #201 on: August 09, 2008, 10:22:53 AM »
They do when these "fictitious" forces aren't actually fictitious.

#### Parsifal

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #202 on: August 09, 2008, 10:28:03 AM »
They do when these "fictitious" forces aren't actually fictitious.

Most of us have moved on from nineteenth century physics. There's an empty seat if you'd like to join us someday.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

#### markjo

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #203 on: August 09, 2008, 11:47:18 AM »
They do when gravity pulls on them.

Fictitious forces usually don't pull on things very strongly.

Have you ever been in a car when someone slams on the brakes?  Tell me that the fictitious force "pushing" you forwards didn't feel real.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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#### ghazwozza

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #204 on: August 09, 2008, 02:39:56 PM »
You people are difficult. OK: here's a definition of "up" that is consistent with GR:

"Up" is the direction of fastest increasing gravitational potential.

In a Newtonian system, this is equivalent to my previous definition ("up" is opposite to the direction objects fall), but also works with GR.
Can we all agree on this?

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#### Josef

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #205 on: August 09, 2008, 02:48:24 PM »
1: A bubble will go up in China
2: A bubble will go up in the United States
3: If the earth is round, bubbles will rise outwards from the earth
4: Since bubbles always rise up, the earth cannot be round

If the earth is round, it is round because of gravitation. And you do believe in gravitation.
Ooompa ooompa

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#### Theorist

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #206 on: August 09, 2008, 03:05:11 PM »
Its easy though:

RE Theory:
1 - Up = outward.
2 - Up = up + outward.
3 - Outward = up.
4 - Outward = outward + up.

Confused? I am.

In RE theory, the words "up" and "outwards" have to mean exactly the same thing for the earth to be a sphere. In RE, anything traveling upwards at 90 degrees to the earths surface is "up" and also it is "outwards" at the same time. "Up" and "outwards" are interchangeable words in RE theory. A quick look in the dictionary shows us that up is not outwards, although I do not claim an English Dictionary to be 100% applicable here, lets use it to see what the words "up" and "outwards" mean as described by an English Dictionary:

Up
1. to, toward, or in a more elevated position: to climb up to the top of a ladder.
2. to or in an erect position: to stand up.
3. out of bed: to get up.
4. above the horizon: The moon came up.
5. to or at any point that is considered higher.

Outward
1. proceeding or directed toward the outside or exterior, or away from a central point: the outward flow of gold; the outward part of a voyage.
2. pertaining to or being what is seen or apparent, as distinguished from the underlying nature, facts, etc.; pertaining to surface qualities only; superficial: outward appearances.
3. belonging or pertaining to external actions or appearances, as opposed to inner feelings, mental states, etc.: an outward show of grief.
4. that lies toward the outside; that is on the outer side; exterior: an outward court.
5. of or pertaining to the outside, outer surface, or exterior: to make repairs on the outward walls of a house.

This shows us straight away that the words "up" and "outwards" mean entirely different things in the English language - but to pass off a spherical Earth, RE'ers must use made up meanings somewhere along the way in order to marry the word "up" with the word "outwards" and claim that standing on earth throwing something up is to also at the same time throw it outwards.

If an RE theorist thinks, that he is throwing a ball "up" towards space, he also thinks he is throwing a ball "outwards" towards space. This cannot work in FE theory, because there can't be "outwards" only "up".

The FE theorist cannot explain this away on behalf of the RE theorist, nor can the FE theorist help the RE theorist out in any way with this error, except to explain as I have here that they are using two different words with 2 different meanings to describe the same thing, which is an impossibility because the dictionary, under "outwards" doesn't mention the word "up" and under the word "up" it does not mention the word "outwards".

I am not "splitting hairs" or "arguing semantics" or "nit-picking" or being "wrong" here.

The RE theorist himself also cannot explain why he uses the two differing words "up" and "outward" interchangeably either.

FE Theory:
1 - Up is up.
2 - Outward is outward.

Up is simply a one directional thing, away from the acceleration that is happening underneath.

Outwards is a scary concept to the FE theorist, it means passing beyond the wall of the cylindrical tube we are going up inside.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 03:12:29 PM by Theorist »
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#### ghazwozza

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #207 on: August 09, 2008, 03:10:53 PM »
I fail to see your problem, Theorist. The only reason "up" and "outwards" are not the same in the English language is because locally the Earth appears flat (because it is so big), but "up" and "outwards" only mean the same thing on a large body.

Just look at my definition above: "up" and "outwards" are clearly the same.

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#### Theorist

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #208 on: August 09, 2008, 03:15:33 PM »
The only reason "up" and "outwards" are not the same in the English language is because locally the Earth appears flat (because it is so big), but "up" and "outwards" only mean the same thing on a large body.

So basically this is to say the earth is flat then yes?

Just look at my definition above: "up" and "outwards" are clearly the same.

You need to be on a spherical earth for that to be true.

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#### narcberry

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##### Re: Which way is up again?
« Reply #209 on: August 09, 2008, 03:16:07 PM »
here is a good hypothetical "up" question for you:  You are deep sea diving and there is no light whatsoever and due to the currents undderwater you get spun in every direction for 10 minutes, after you stop you must point "up", which way do you point?

You are quite possibly the dumbest RE'er on these boards. Congratulations.

Just because 'up' is universal, doesn't mean a dazed diver of the dark deeps is going to know where it is. Whether he can identify up or not, the up direction would be towards the waters surface (as that happens to be the direction the earth is accelerating). Of course, we can't tell him this, I hope you weren't expecting us to.