Evolution debunked

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SPrinkZ

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2007, 05:08:42 PM »
Do you ever post your own ideas outside of your poetry?

Since when am I a scientist? When I become a scientist, I can definitely tell you my opinions on evolution. Even so, all I have found is evidence for evolution as I study it more.
ah.

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Midnight

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2007, 05:52:54 PM »
Do you ever post your own ideas outside of your poetry?

Since when am I a scientist? When I become a scientist, I can definitely tell you my opinions on evolution. Even so, all I have found is evidence for evolution as I study it more.

I wasn't being hateful, I was curious. Didn't say anything about you being a Scientist or not. You just seem to carbon copy beast for some strange reason, and never present your own take on all this.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

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SPrinkZ

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2007, 05:54:55 PM »
Do you ever post your own ideas outside of your poetry?

Since when am I a scientist? When I become a scientist, I can definitely tell you my opinions on evolution. Even so, all I have found is evidence for evolution as I study it more.

I wasn't being hateful, I was curious. Didn't say anything about you being a Scientist or not. You just seem to carbon copy beast for some strange reason, and never present your own take on all this.

I don't mean to be a dick, but Beast is right. I agree with him because he's right. We totally disagree on other things though, as he would probably LOVE to point out. Evolution is a simple thing to understand, and I haven't found a single point he's said that is wrong. He's following very sound, and tested logic. Do you want me to oppose the obvious?
ah.

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SPrinkZ

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2007, 05:59:08 PM »
Exactly.

Evolution isn't a proof, it's a theory.
The theory may have holes... that's why we get better ones.

It just takes us some time to find the missing parts, and then reformulate the theory around those parts.
Natural Selection is a proven, non-debated (I hope  ???) fact.

Macroevolution had more holes.  Those holes are starting to be filled.  The final theory (if one is possible) for how organisms developed into different species will most likely be different from our current understanding.

rofl, evolution has never been debated. Only idiots claim to have debated it. Evolution has been tested and tried relentlessly, and it's always proven true. There are no holes in macro-evolution.

Sure they are, but over details. The gist of the theory has never been in doubt since Darwin first published.

Details such as?
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Tom Bishop

Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2007, 06:53:54 PM »
Quote
Details such as?

Irreducible complexity.

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SPrinkZ

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2007, 07:00:19 PM »
Quote
Details such as?

Irreducible complexity.

Which has been proven wrong? :|

Give me a good example please.
ah.

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Tom Bishop

Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2007, 07:19:33 PM »
Quote
Details such as?

Irreducible complexity.

Which has been proven wrong? :|

Give me a good example please.

Perhaps the best example of irreducible complexity is the motor mechanism in a cell's flagellum.



As you can see from the image, the motor has an actual bearing. How could a bearing possibly evolve in a step by step process? Each part of a bearing is absolutely essential for its function. It's one essential step that must have evolved all at once. There are no incremental improvements from a bearingless flagellum.

The same goes for the entire motor of the flagellum as a whole. Take one piece out and the entire motor fails to function. There are no incremental improvements that can be made on the wall of a cell that could be turned into a motor.

There is no such thing as an "almost working" motor, either. There is such a thing as a broken motor, maybe. A motor has certain essential parts which are necessary for its function. A motor either works or it doesn't work. If it doesn't work, and is missing one essential piece, it provides absolutely no evolutionary advantage for the next of kin to pass on.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2007, 07:41:08 PM by Tom Bishop »

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SPrinkZ

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2007, 07:57:54 PM »
From your own source: "For instance, precursors to the flagellum's motor can be found being used as ionic channels within bacteria, known as the Type III Secretory System.[3] This is true for most of the structure of the flagellum in general; of the 42 proteins found in the flagellum, 40 have already been found in use in different biological pathways.[4] Even Behe's toy model used to illustrate the concept, the mouse trap, was countered by critics including biology professor John McDonald, who produced examples of how he considered the mousetrap to be "easy to reduce", eventually to a single part.[5] Critics consider that most, or all, of the examples were based on misunderstandings of the workings of the biological systems in question, and consider the low quality of these examples excellent evidence for the argument from ignorance. Irreducible complexity is generally dismissed by the majority of the scientific community;[2] it is often referred to as pseudoscience.[6]"

You fucked yourself. Talk about unintelligent design.
ah.

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BOGWarrior89

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2007, 02:26:23 AM »
The eloquence and intelligence of your argument is a fantastic example of the way religion supports the quest for knowledge. 

beast, did I ever tell you that you're one of my heroes?

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Tom Bishop

Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2007, 10:13:27 AM »
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You fucked yourself. Talk about unintelligent design.

What do proteins have to do with anything? Of course the proteins used in creating the flagellum's motor are found elsewhere. There are only 20 different amino acids that can possibly exist, and thus there are a limited number of proteins that amino acids can configure themselves into. Any middle school student could see that proteins found in the flagellum motor are found elsewhere in the bacterium. A protein is a multi-purpose tool like a swiss army knife.

The point is, like a mousetrap, the flagellum motor is a single system composed of several interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, and where the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively stop functioning.

The Flagellum's motor must, by all reason of logic, have appeared in one discrete step. It is absolutely absurd to believe that a free rotating structure like a bearing could possibly evolve through natural selection. It would be analogous to a creature evolving a wheel as a method of transportation. Think about it a little.

I'm not a proponent of Intelligent Design myself, but there are alternatives to Natural Selection that could be taking place. Genetic Drift is one such alternative to Evolution through Natural Selection. Other alternatives include Molecular Breeding, DNA Shuffling, Neutral Adaption Theory, and Macromutation.

Scientists and professors have a habit of using the word 'Evolution' as a magic wand over questions of why and how. None have the insight or intelligence to describe Natural Selection on a biochemical level.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2007, 10:44:29 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2007, 01:28:34 PM »
I didn't read this.



but if i did i'd say yur a dumbass

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SPrinkZ

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2007, 02:02:44 PM »
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You fucked yourself. Talk about unintelligent design.

What do proteins have to do with anything? Of course the proteins used in creating the flagellum's motor are found elsewhere. There are only 20 different amino acids that can possibly exist, and thus there are a limited number of proteins that amino acids can configure themselves into. Any middle school student could see that proteins found in the flagellum motor are found elsewhere in the bacterium. A protein is a multi-purpose tool like a swiss army knife.

The point is, like a mousetrap, the flagellum motor is a single system composed of several interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, and where the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively stop functioning.

The Flagellum's motor must, by all reason of logic, have appeared in one discrete step. It is absolutely absurd to believe that a free rotating structure like a bearing could possibly evolve through natural selection. It would be analogous to a creature evolving a wheel as a method of transportation. Think about it a little.

I'm not a proponent of Intelligent Design myself, but there are alternatives to Natural Selection that could be taking place. Genetic Drift is one such alternative to Evolution through Natural Selection. Other alternatives include Molecular Breeding, DNA Shuffling, Neutral Adaption Theory, and Macromutation.

Scientists and professors have a habit of using the word 'Evolution' as a magic wand over questions of why and how. None have the insight or intelligence to describe Natural Selection on a biochemical level.

No. The Flagellum's motor has already been proven to have intermediate steps. Your own article says that what you are telling me is pseudoscience.
ah.

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Tom Bishop

Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2007, 07:54:25 PM »
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No. The Flagellum's motor has already been proven to have intermediate steps. Your own article says that what you are telling me is pseudoscience.

Care to describe these steps then? Regardless of what the Wikipedia article says, it is not "pseudscience."



How could a rotary bearing possibly evolve in discrete steps? Don't you see the problem?

Take any one balls out of the bearing and the entire structure does not turn, defeating the purpose of the flagellum's motor. Take the casing off of the bearing and the balls fall out. Take the entire bearing out and the motor becomes worthless. The bearing is worthless without the motor and the motor is worthless without the bearing. It's a complete, complex system where each part relies on each other for function.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2007, 08:58:00 PM by Tom Bishop »

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GeoGuy

Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2007, 08:34:28 PM »
Tom, I myself lack the technical understanding of this issue to present any sort of convincing argument. So instead I'll just link you to a fascinating article from TalkDesign, a sister site of TalkOrigins. It explains in great detail how IC systems are perfectly capable of evolving, and are completely explained through natural selection.

Clicky

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SPrinkZ

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2007, 11:58:22 PM »
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No. The Flagellum's motor has already been proven to have intermediate steps. Your own article says that what you are telling me is pseudoscience.

Care to describe these steps then? Regardless of what the Wikipedia article says, it is not "pseudscience."



How could a rotary bearing possibly evolve in discrete steps? Don't you see the problem?

Take any one balls out of the bearing and the entire structure does not turn, defeating the purpose of the flagellum's motor. Take the casing off of the bearing and the balls fall out. Take the entire bearing out and the motor becomes worthless. The bearing is worthless without the motor and the motor is worthless without the bearing. It's a complete, complex system where each part relies on each other for function.

Someone already beat me to it. Your argument is weak.
ah.

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beast

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2007, 11:36:19 PM »

I'm not a proponent of Intelligent Design myself, but there are alternatives to Natural Selection that could be taking place. Genetic Drift is one such alternative to Evolution through Natural Selection. Other alternatives include Molecular Breeding, DNA Shuffling, Neutral Adaption Theory, and Macromutation.

Scientists and professors have a habit of using the word 'Evolution' as a magic wand over questions of why and how. None have the insight or intelligence to describe Natural Selection on a biochemical level.

What the fuck are you talking about?  Scientists readily agree that not all evolution that occurs happens because of natural selection.  However they also agree that when you see animals improving at skills, for example learning to fly, getting better eyesight etc. that has to be because of natural selection.  As for you claim about describing natural selection on the biochemical level; you should source that, because it's clearly false.  DNA and genetics is the strongest evidence of evolution that exists.

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Midnight

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2007, 11:39:17 PM »
LOL
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

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skeptical scientist

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2007, 01:51:59 AM »
Quote
No. The Flagellum's motor has already been proven to have intermediate steps. Your own article says that what you are telling me is pseudoscience.

Care to describe these steps then? Regardless of what the Wikipedia article says, it is not "pseudscience."



How could a rotary bearing possibly evolve in discrete steps? Don't you see the problem?

Take any one balls out of the bearing and the entire structure does not turn, defeating the purpose of the flagellum's motor. Take the casing off of the bearing and the balls fall out. Take the entire bearing out and the motor becomes worthless. The bearing is worthless without the motor and the motor is worthless without the bearing. It's a complete, complex system where each part relies on each other for function.
The picture you posted is not at all how the bearing in the bacterial flagellum motor works, and is instead a human-designed ball bearing. Such pictures do nothing but mislead. The motor is actually combination of proteins which form the socket and bearing, propeller, and drive shaft. One common proposed evolutionary pathway is that the socket began as an excretory system, and indeed it has many proteins in common with what is termed a "type III excretory system" which has a dissimilar but also useful function. The way the type III excretory system works is that it provides a socket, and a motor which pushes objects through the socket. When an object instead of being pushed through gets lodged, and the action of the motor trying to push it through causes it to spin, you instead get a motor. This is of course an oversimplification, but it shows that what may seem at first glance to be "irreducibly complex" may not be.

In fact, the entire premise of the "irreducible complexity" argument is poor - if you look at them closely they all share the following structure: consider structure X. Structure X is composed of many seperate parts, and the removal of any one of these causes structure X not to perform its desired function. I can see no way that structure X could have evolved by a slow evolutionary process with each small step granting a survival benefit, therefore it could not have happened. It is clear where the problem with this sort of reasoning is: just because you can't see how something might have happened doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. Especially since there are many many ways that structure X may have been formed. If structure X is composed of parts A, B, C, D, E, F, G, and H, then it may be that the parts without H in place perform no useful function, but if you have all parts besides D, they do. And maybe when you discard D, it performs no useful function if you discard an additional part, but if instead of part B you have some slightly different part B', it is possible to discard C and still have a useful assemblage, so the evolutionary chain progressed from A, B', E, F, G, H to A, B', C, E, F, G, H to A, B, C, E, F, G, H to A, B', C, D, E, F, G, H.

It's like those games where you try to get from frogs to gloom by changing one letter at a time. Sure they only differ by four letters, but that doesn't mean you can get there in four steps - in fact it takes 10 steps, and at some point you have to change the one correct starting letter to an incorrect letter to make progress. Evolutionary pathways can be equally complicated, and the fact that there is no apparent way that a complicated structure may have evolved gradually does not indicate that it did not evolve - it simply indicates that its method of evolution is not readily apparent.
-David
E pur si muove!

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narcberry

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2007, 08:53:55 AM »
This is a very common counter-argument to irreduceable complexity. The problem with it is there would be more evidences of this in animals. You know, tons of random useless parts. Or if you prefer, tons of useless proteins. Why is it that there is a use for every protein in my body?

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Midnight

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2007, 10:07:27 AM »
There isn't, Franc.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

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skeptical scientist

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2007, 10:54:46 AM »
This is a very common counter-argument to irreduceable complexity. The problem with it is there would be more evidences of this in animals. You know, tons of random useless parts. Or if you prefer, tons of useless proteins. Why is it that there is a use for every protein in my body?
You seem to have misunderstood my argument, as I did not say anything which would indicate I expected to see useless structures all over the place.

I did not argue that there would be useless parts along the way to a system you call "irreducibly complex". In fact, I argued just the opposite; that every step along the way did provide some concrete improvement, but that you may just be unable to figure out what the steps along the way were, or how those steps granted the organism a survival advantage. We would not expect to see random useless parts now or in evolutionary history, except in the case when random useless parts are parts of systems which were at one point useful and some change in the environment or brought about by evolution made them superfluous, and which don't provide enough of a survival disadvantage for natural selection to have weeded them out (for example, remnants of a pelvis in certain types of snakes).
-David
E pur si muove!

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dysfunction

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2007, 11:16:09 AM »
Skeptical gave a very good treatment of the counterargument to irreducible complexity. I have a few points I'd like to add, however.

First: The fact that all parts of a system are currently necessary for the system to function does not mean that that was the case throughout the system's history. Imagine building an arch. You cannot simply build an arch piece by piece, as all the pieces are required to be already in place before the arch can stand up. Imagine, however, that as you built the arch upwards, you constructed a scaffolding along with it, supporting the arch until the keystone was in place. With the keystone in place, the arch can support itself, and the scaffolding can be removed. Likewise, as evolution constructs complex biological systems, parts may be made redundant or superfluous. Eventually, one of two things will happen: either the superfluous parts will be removed, rendering every part of the system necessary, or else the function of these parts will change, making them integral to the system's function.

Second: Irreducible complexity is not a new concept. Michael Behe and other ID proponents were not the first to point out its existence on the microbiological scale. Indeed, long before we had the tools to discover and examine such microscopic systems, the evolutionary biologist Herman Muller predicted that evolution should in fact create such structures, based on the way evolution is known to operate. Therefore the discovery of such structures actually strengthens evolution, rather than weakening it. To say that irreducible complexity falsifies evolution is like saying that the Bible falsifies Christianity.
the cake is a lie

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narcberry

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2007, 01:29:37 PM »
This is a very common counter-argument to irreduceable complexity. The problem with it is there would be more evidences of this in animals. You know, tons of random useless parts. Or if you prefer, tons of useless proteins. Why is it that there is a use for every protein in my body?
You seem to have misunderstood my argument, as I did not say anything which would indicate I expected to see useless structures all over the place.

I did not argue that there would be useless parts along the way to a system you call "irreducibly complex". In fact, I argued just the opposite; that every step along the way did provide some concrete improvement, but that you may just be unable to figure out what the steps along the way were, or how those steps granted the organism a survival advantage. We would not expect to see random useless parts now or in evolutionary history, except in the case when random useless parts are parts of systems which were at one point useful and some change in the environment or brought about by evolution made them superfluous, and which don't provide enough of a survival disadvantage for natural selection to have weeded them out (for example, remnants of a pelvis in certain types of snakes).

I disagree, but I do understand your point better. Thanks.

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narcberry

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2007, 01:32:05 PM »
Skeptical gave a very good treatment of the counterargument to irreducible complexity. I have a few points I'd like to add, however.

First: The fact that all parts of a system are currently necessary for the system to function does not mean that that was the case throughout the system's history. Imagine building an arch. You cannot simply build an arch piece by piece, as all the pieces are required to be already in place before the arch can stand up. Imagine, however, that as you built the arch upwards, you constructed a scaffolding along with it, supporting the arch until the keystone was in place. With the keystone in place, the arch can support itself, and the scaffolding can be removed. Likewise, as evolution constructs complex biological systems, parts may be made redundant or superfluous. Eventually, one of two things will happen: either the superfluous parts will be removed, rendering every part of the system necessary, or else the function of these parts will change, making them integral to the system's function.

Second: Irreducible complexity is not a new concept. Michael Behe and other ID proponents were not the first to point out its existence on the microbiological scale. Indeed, long before we had the tools to discover and examine such microscopic systems, the evolutionary biologist Herman Muller predicted that evolution should in fact create such structures, based on the way evolution is known to operate. Therefore the discovery of such structures actually strengthens evolution, rather than weakening it. To say that irreducible complexity falsifies evolution is like saying that the Bible falsifies Christianity.

I agree that this could be the case. Without any evidence, I would disagree. I believe that in order for such an intermidiary mechanism to exist, only for the purpose of developing a more fit structure would also imply that many of these such mechanisms exist. This would be the case regardless if they would actually lead to the development of a more fit structure.

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narcberry

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2007, 01:32:54 PM »
There isn't.

Perhaps you could enlighten us? Im sure of all that DNA, you could show us a useless protein?

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Midnight

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2007, 01:34:47 PM »
There isn't.

Perhaps you could enlighten us? Im sure of all that DNA, you could show us a useless protein?

It just posted.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

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narcberry

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2007, 01:36:04 PM »
The famous Narcberry protein?

Seriously, do you even try?

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cmdshft

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #57 on: April 10, 2007, 03:33:36 PM »
He's doing quite well, actually. For a non-/b/tard anyway.

But there are plenty of useless genes that life can poses. Like the genes that cause cancer. Pretty pointless to me, but it's there.

Hey BOG, where's that thread you said you were going to make?

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narcberry

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2007, 03:36:39 PM »
Wasn't talking about genes, but proteins. It's a significant difference. I dont think any round-earther reads a lick of what they are debating against. As if ignorance provides credence.

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Vilkata

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Re: Evolution debunked
« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2007, 04:07:43 PM »
Natural selection can most definetly lead to useless proteins.

during DNA replication, errors can occur. these lead to deviations from the original specimen. these deviations can be one of three types:

negative; the deviation harms the creatures chance at life, as it hinders its chances at getting food, escaping predators etc.

positive; the deviation gives the creature a better edge as far as survival

and last but not least, deviations that have no real bearing on the ability of the creature. its is neither useful nor hindering. however, as, over generations, these deviations 'stack up' on each other, it can lead to greater developments.

so evolutionary developments do not neccessarily have to pass through 'useful' stages
As I said in another thread...

Forget "Earth: Not a Globe". Why don't you try reading "Earth: Not a Book, the Real Thing".