Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ

  • 24 Replies
  • 4470 Views
?

Tom Bishop

Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« on: February 25, 2007, 11:11:52 PM »
Good evening,

In this thread I shall tackle and answer a number of common Flat Earth queries. Please bear with me while I describe various phenomena. If there are specific questions you would like me to address please post them in this thread and I will update this post with a description.

This thread shall be a work in progress, created as a basis for further understanding of the FAQ.

Q: Why does the horizon look curved in this picture I found?

Pictures are not admissible as evidence on this forum because the truth of the matter is that not all camera lenses are created equal. Lens imperfections are magnified when looking across distance. It is a fact that many types of lenses give the Curvature of Field effect. No camera lens can be made perfect. Each has some amount of barrel, chromatic, coma, pincushion, or spherical distortion.

Q: If the earth is flat why can’t I see China from the coast of California?

This is a common question poised by newcomers to the forums. According to the layman one should be able to see forever across the horizon in the perfectly transparent atmosphere.

Unfortunately this is pure fallacy. Atoms are not transparent. And thus, the atmosphere is not perfectly transparent. After a certain point into the distance air density becomes clouded to the point it completely obscures objects beyond it. Viewing distance into the horizon is directly correlated with pressure, gas constant, temperature, humidity, and pollution. At sea level the average air density is 1.2250 kg/m3. This sort of density will allow a viewing distance of around 30 miles across the horizon. In New York pollution and humidity are at such high levels that viewing distance is limited to 15 miles.

The sky is blue because the air is blue, and when the sun shines on it, you can see this blue color. Each molecule of air behaves like a bluish-looking mote of dust. Stare into the sky on a sunny day, and you're looking into a thick cloud of air.

At higher altitudes the air density drops sharply, allowing the viewer to see far away lands before they are obscured by a blue-white sky. It is for this reason that an observer standing on Mt. Everest can see other mountains hundreds of miles away. Such pristine conditions are rare on the earth, however.

Q: If the air obscures objects past 30 miles, why can I still see the sun?

Like headlights through fog the sun is intense enough to shine through the air’s density, illuminating the earth. Overhead at the sun is very intense. At the horizon the sun is considerably less intense since it must shine through more of the atmosphere at the horizon. Consider for a moment, is it easier to look at the sun at noon or at sunset?

The stars and moon are also less intense at the horizon than at zenith.

Q: Describe the Southern Cross

The Southern Cross constellation is part of a large group of bright celestial bodies that move in tandem near the earth. Like many other celestial bodies, they move in predictable patterns. The Southern Cross was marked by observers in the Northern Hemidisk in pre-Christian times, and the four main bodies were said to represent the four pagan virtues—Justice, Fortitude, Temperance and Prudence. Early Christians naturally accorded it a religious significance, and some of the early emigrants to South America regarded it as a good omen planted before them in the sky as an emblem of their faith.

The Southern Cross is unique among celestial bodies because it rotationally alters its position in the skies; and observed at the same time-say 9 o'clock—each night, throughout the year, this change can be seen quite distinctly. In May it stands upright almost overhead pointing Rimward, in August it lies further Wests on its side, by November it stands on its head near the horizon and due Rimward, and in February it lies on its side pointing East.


Answered questions in the book "Earth Not a Globe" by Samuel Birley Robotham

Q: Why does the sun appear to set into the horizon?

Accurately explained in Chapter 9. See: http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za27.htm

Q: Explain Solar and Lunar eclipses

Accurately explained in Chapter 11. See: http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za29.htm

Q: Describe the cause of tides

Accurately described in Chapter 12. See: http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za30.htm

Q: Why does a ship’s hull disappear before its mast-head?

Accurately explained in Chapter 14, section 1. See: http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za32.htm

Q: Explain the variability of the Foucault Pendulum

Accurately explained in Chapter 14, section 8. See: http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za39.htm

Q: Describe the motions of the stars in the North and South

Accurately described in Chapter 14, section 17. See: http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za48.htm
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 03:52:17 PM by Tom Bishop »

*

unclegravy

  • 957
  • I feel so fucking high!!!!!!
Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2007, 01:10:30 AM »
I am angry!
And I am expressing it in this topic!

Because of such, it will be moved to angry ranting, and that makes me even angrier!

GRRRG!>:C
Quote
The people who feast on exclamation marks will never go hungry agaaaain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*

Splox

  • 76
Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2007, 01:31:38 AM »
Q: Why does the sun appear to set into the horizon?

Fully explained in Chapter 9. See: http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za27.htm

This is not "Fully explained" in those "sacred-texts"

This is easily refuted in this thread:
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=10571.0

In fact, the evidence gets stronger as the thread progresses.

Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2007, 01:36:44 AM »
Unfortunately this is pure fallacy. Atoms are not transparent. And thus, the atmosphere is not perfectly transparent. After a certain point into the distance air density becomes clouded to the point it completely obscures objects beyond it. Viewing distance into the horizon is directly correlated with pressure, gas constant, temperature, humidity, and pollution. At sea level the average air density is 1.2250 kg/m3. This sort of density will allow a viewing distance of around 30 miles along the horizon.

The sky is blue because the air is blue.

Regardless of the fact that the last sentence there is quite possibly the funniest thing ive ever read in my life, made even funnier by the pseudo-science it follows, that is an absolutely absurd statement.  I can guarantee that you can compress, cool down, and humidify gas (so long as the water remains dissolved) as much as you want, and it will not appear to be blue.  Go ahead, try for yourself.

Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2007, 02:15:11 AM »
Go on Tom.  Tell us how the Southern cross can be used as a navigation tool the same way all across the southern hemisphere to find south.  You realise that IMPOSSIBLE on a flat earth?  Your explaination of the southern cross relates to the northern hemisphere.

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=10816.0

Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2007, 06:52:47 AM »
So if i get a REALLY bright light i should be able to go past 30 miles on a ship from the coast and see it?

Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2007, 06:54:49 AM »
So if i get a REALLY bright light i should be able to go past 30 miles on a ship from the coast and see it?

If you get a light that's as powerful as the sun, yes.


BTW, It's a longshot, but the sun certainly has a gigawatt of power, it's probably much much more, but it has at least a megawatt.

You won't find a lamp with a gigawatt of power.
Madre de Dios! Es el Pollo Diablo!

Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2007, 06:58:22 AM »
So if i get a REALLY bright light i should be able to go past 30 miles on a ship from the coast and see it?

If you get a light that's as powerful as the sun, yes.


BTW, It's a longshot, but the sun certainly has a gigawatt of power, it's probably much much more, but it has at least a megawatt.

You won't find a lamp with a gigawatt of power.

Not expecting to.

But about the sunset.  Is the sun flat like a CD facing earth? Or is it a sphere?(on FE)  IF it's like a CD, wouldn't the sun change shape as it gets further away? Or am I forgetting something?

Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2007, 07:03:19 AM »
So if i get a REALLY bright light i should be able to go past 30 miles on a ship from the coast and see it?

If you get a light that's as powerful as the sun, yes.


BTW, It's a longshot, but the sun certainly has a gigawatt of power, it's probably much much more, but it has at least a megawatt.

You won't find a lamp with a gigawatt of power.

Not expecting to.

But about the sunset.  Is the sun flat like a CD facing earth? Or is it a sphere?(on FE)  IF it's like a CD, wouldn't the sun change shape as it gets further away? Or am I forgetting something?

It's explained in the FAQ. The sun is, I believe, spherical.
Madre de Dios! Es el Pollo Diablo!

Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2007, 07:06:45 AM »
So if i get a REALLY bright light i should be able to go past 30 miles on a ship from the coast and see it?

If you get a light that's as powerful as the sun, yes.


BTW, It's a longshot, but the sun certainly has a gigawatt of power, it's probably much much more, but it has at least a megawatt.

You won't find a lamp with a gigawatt of power.

Not expecting to.

But about the sunset.  Is the sun flat like a CD facing earth? Or is it a sphere?(on FE)  IF it's like a CD, wouldn't the sun change shape as it gets further away? Or am I forgetting something?

It's explained in the FAQ. The sun is, I believe, spherical.

I didn't find it described as spherical in the FAQ's.  And if it was, what makes it have a "spotlight" effect of emitting light?

Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2007, 07:08:22 AM »
Notice the "I believe" in my post.

It's my personal opinion, not the opinion of the FE community.

I for one don't know how the sun theory works, haven't really focused on it to be honest.
Madre de Dios! Es el Pollo Diablo!

Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2007, 07:10:29 AM »
Notice the "I believe" in my post.

It's my personal opinion, not the opinion of the FE community.

I for one don't know how the sun theory works, haven't really focused on it to be honest.

Missed the "I believe" part.  I'll try to read more carefully next time.  But are there any FE's who can help me with this sun?

Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2007, 07:16:48 AM »
Notice the "I believe" in my post.

It's my personal opinion, not the opinion of the FE community.

I for one don't know how the sun theory works, haven't really focused on it to be honest.

Missed the "I believe" part.  I'll try to read more carefully next time.  But are there any FE's who can help me with this sun?

Be patient, there's people all around the world on this forum, not all of them are in your timezone, and further more, not all of them are always online, wait for a day or two, and if you don't get an answer by then, ask again, if you don't get an answer soon, i believe you can safely assume no one knows the answer.
Madre de Dios! Es el Pollo Diablo!

Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2007, 08:57:34 AM »
Notice the "I believe" in my post.

It's my personal opinion, not the opinion of the FE community.

I for one don't know how the sun theory works, haven't really focused on it to be honest.

Missed the "I believe" part.  I'll try to read more carefully next time.  But are there any FE's who can help me with this sun?

Be patient, there's people all around the world on this forum, not all of them are in your timezone, and further more, not all of them are always online, wait for a day or two, and if you don't get an answer by then, ask again, if you don't get an answer soon, i believe you can safely assume no one knows the answer.
Just be sure to bump your thread once or twice, so it doesnt get lost in Merchant Navy chat or some other crap...

I'm doing this from school, kinda hard to bump.

Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2007, 12:08:20 PM »


Q: If the air obscures objects past 30 miles, why can I still see the sun?

Like headlights through fog the sun is intense enough to shine through the air’s density, illuminating the earth. Overhead at the sun is very intense. At the horizon the sun is considerably less intense since it must shine through more of the atmosphere at the horizon. Consider for a moment, is it easier to look at the sun at noon or at sunset?

The stars and moon are also less intense at the horizon than at zenith.



then why can i see the moon right now at 3:07 PM when its sunny outside (even so, the moon has the round shadow of the earth on it)

*

EvilToothpaste

  • 2461
  • The Reverse Engineer
Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2007, 01:10:27 PM »
then why can i see the moon right now at 3:07 PM when its sunny outside (even so, the moon has the round shadow of the earth on it)

Because the air above you is less dense than the air beside you. 

Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2007, 01:25:00 PM »
then why can i see the moon right now at 3:07 PM when its sunny outside (even so, the moon has the round shadow of the earth on it)

Because the air above you is less dense than the air beside you. 

so then if i hover up in a hot air baloon that goes up just as high as a 747 then i could see china

*

EvilToothpaste

  • 2461
  • The Reverse Engineer
Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2007, 01:28:58 PM »
so then if i hover up in a hot air baloon that goes up just as high as a 747 then i could see china

I don't know where you are, but if you are in China it is very possible. 

Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2007, 01:29:40 PM »
so then if i hover up in a hot air baloon that goes up just as high as a 747 then i could see china

I don't know where you are, but if you are in China it is very possible. 

Im in NC

*

EvilToothpaste

  • 2461
  • The Reverse Engineer
Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2007, 01:38:13 PM »
In that case it sounds like an interesting experiment;  I can't wait to see your results.  You might want to make some preliminary calculations of what you will see, though.  I think China will look about as thick as a sheet of paper from that distance. 

Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2007, 01:41:29 PM »
In that case it sounds like an interesting experiment;  I can't wait to see your results.  You might want to make some preliminary calculations of what you will see, though.  I think China will look about as thick as a sheet of paper from that distance. 

Actually, I was just going off your explanation. The reason we cant see other cites far away is because of the dense air, but that we can see the sun/moon because the air is less dense above us, so then if we go up high enough, we could see the cities far away.

*

EvilToothpaste

  • 2461
  • The Reverse Engineer
Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2007, 01:46:58 PM »
In that case it sounds like an interesting experiment;  I can't wait to see your results.  You might want to make some preliminary calculations of what you will see, though.  I think China will look about as thick as a sheet of paper from that distance. 

Actually, I was just going off your explanation. The reason we cant see other cites far away is because of the dense air, but that we can see the sun/moon because the air is less dense above us, so then if we go up high enough, we could see the cities far away.

That sounds reasonable.  Let's not over-clutter Tom's post, though. 

Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2007, 01:49:22 PM »
In that case it sounds like an interesting experiment;  I can't wait to see your results.  You might want to make some preliminary calculations of what you will see, though.  I think China will look about as thick as a sheet of paper from that distance. 

Actually, I was just going off your explanation. The reason we cant see other cites far away is because of the dense air, but that we can see the sun/moon because the air is less dense above us, so then if we go up high enough, we could see the cities far away.

That sounds reasonable.  Let's not over-clutter Tom's post, though. 

Meh, no one reads what tom posts anyways

?

silverhammermba

  • 172
  • Anger makes me debate. Debating makes me angry.
Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2007, 09:47:29 PM »
Good evening, Tom. I'm going to refute several of your points right now. Even though they have all been refuted plenty of times, I feel like doing so myself.

1. The horizon looks curved in certain pictures because of imperfect camera lenses
But then if you took a picture of a perfectly straight line up close, it would look curved because of the lens. An imperfection great enough to make a flat horizon look curved would quite clearly and obviously distort every picture that the camera takes.

2. You can't see very far because air blocks the light
Your explanation makes sense, but I'm pretty sure that we'd be able to see way farther than we currently can if all that was blocking us was air pollution rather than the physical curve of the Earth. Consider that on a clear day looking out over the ocean, ships appear to disappear over the horizon rather than fade into the air. In fact, if you're more than a tenth of a mile off the ground (a paltry 500-some feet) you should be able to see more than 30 miles. However, even if the air density drops off very sharply, you would still be seeing through mostly dense air - so I don't see why the distance increase would be so noticeable.

3. The Southern Cross moves around
Which is more plausible: the cross rotates in a very strange unnatural pattern so that it remains perfectly in sync with the disk-shaped Earth or the southern cross is essentially stationary, but the completely regular rotation of the Earth makes it look like it's moving?

4. The sun appears to set and the hull of ships disappear because of perspective
Perspective results in objects appearing to shrink as they get further away. However, both the sun setting and the hull of ship disappearing before the mast work completely differently. Not only does one witness shrinking, but also obscuration! By the very arguments in "Earth Not A Globe", if the ship has gotten far enough away for the hull to be no longer visible, then the mast too would no longer be visible since it is approximately the same distance away. Similarly, if you were to place a disk edge-wise on a table and walk away while looking at it, the disk would appear to shrink but it would never appear to be sinking into the table. That is simply not how perspective works.

I'm surprise at how much you guys quote that "Earth Not A Globe" book. Every argument based on perspective is essentially flawed because the author clearly does not understand how perspective works at all. If he can't understand such a simple property, how willing are you to rely on his more advanced explanations?


Quote from: Kasroa
Tom usually says at this point that people have seen the ice-wall. It is the Ross Ice Shelf. That usually kills the conversation by the power of sheer bull-shit alone.

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 27043
  • I'm the boss.
Re: Misconceptions and Queries pertaining to the FAQ
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2007, 11:01:29 AM »
Like headlights through fog the sun is intense enough to shine through the air’s density, illuminating the earth. Overhead at the sun is very intense. At the horizon the sun is considerably less intense since it must shine through more of the atmosphere at the horizon. Consider for a moment, is it easier to look at the sun at noon or at sunset?

The stars and moon are also less intense at the horizon than at zenith.



Okay, so somehow I can see the sun even though it is many miles above the earth, because it is so intense.

Why is it that I can see an airplane that may be as much as 40 miles or more above the earth?  Or the top of a very tall mountain?  Or the clouds? 

And what scientific experiments have been done to demonstrate this effect you talk about?  It sounds like a way to fill in the gaps and cover up a flaw in your theory, which might suit your purposes as far as convincing others, but really isn't science.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?