Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?

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Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #240 on: September 04, 2006, 02:37:54 AM »
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So at what age does this become a "grey area" to you, 13, 14, 15, because personaly it is 14 for me where you can sort of go either way.


if I could give you a 100% accurate rule, I sure as hell wouldn't be posting it on an Internet forum, it depends on the person, circumstances, the other partner, the environment, the parents, etc. etc. etc.

just about everything that influences a childs growth is a factor so to make a 100% rule would be nigh impossible, I personally think 16 is about right, while I think you could get away with 15 and even 14, at 16 I would say 90% of teens are capable of consenting, whereas with the lower ages, the percentage decreases, (I don't know any figures so don't ask) but I would guestimate that the curve would be a hyperbole of some sort, eg:

at 14 say 50%, at 15: 80% at 16 90%, at 17 95% etc. etc.  IMO its better to have an age of consent of 16 and look the other way when a 15 year old has a bit of a fling with her BF than have an age of 15 and run the risk of some of the less mature kids being taken advantage of.

Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #241 on: September 04, 2006, 10:27:43 AM »
THERE IS DISCUSSION GOING ON IT WILL NOT BE DELETED


Alright, I respect that, that is a good system, and I agree with the whole there is no concrete answer thing.
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

Advocatus Diaboli

Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #242 on: October 15, 2006, 03:41:42 PM »
I haven't been to this site in a while...  but anyway

If we're talking about teenagers >14 then I think it's not all that big a deal...

But children?  I just don't see a situation where the child is fully capable of understanding the whole situation.  That's not to say that children do not experience sexual pleasure.  THAT would just be right ring willed ignorance... but I can't see a level playing field between an adult and a child...

teens are one thing, but pre-pubescent children?  I gotta say it's wrong...
The Earth rests on an Infinite stack of Turtles...
Stop raping the llamas!
I'm a platypus gynecologist, damn it!
"I once taught a rabbit to fly with only a string..." -Now

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Erasmus

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Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #243 on: October 15, 2006, 05:25:17 PM »
Quote from: "ItRestsOnInfiniteTurtles"
But children?  I just don't see a situation where the child is fully capable of understanding the whole situation.


What's to understand?  I keep hearing this statement made.  If "understand" means "know and be able to responsibly conisder the potential consequences of the act," then I think this is just as much of an argument against sex among adults.

If "understand" means "realize that sex is dirty / sinful / for adults only / for married people only / for people-in-romantic-love only," then I say that these restrictions are purely socially constructed and thus it's coherent to discuss the possible alteration of the social norms.

Personally, my bet is that antipædophilia laws are designed to protect the privilege of adults who want to control the biology of children, not to protect the children themselves.  This should not be too surprising; quite a lot of common law is oriented around protecting somebody's privilege to control somebody else's body.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #244 on: October 16, 2006, 08:04:20 PM »
One of my posts in this thread was deleted for some reason. Oh well.

Anyhoo, I think that having sex with kids is morally wrong. Seriously. I still dont think this should even be discussed.
quote="Dogplatter"]
Penguins were actually created in the 1960's by Russian scientists who combined the DNA of otters and birds.  [/quote]


LOL

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qwe

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Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #245 on: October 16, 2006, 08:34:20 PM »
Quote from: "Yardstick2006"
One of my posts in this thread was deleted for some reason. Oh well.

Anyhoo, I think that having sex with kids is morally wrong. Seriously. I still dont think this should even be discussed.

you sound like a flat earther.  actually, nevermind, you sound worse

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qwe

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Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #246 on: October 16, 2006, 08:37:55 PM »
i didnt realize this was the same thread i participated in months ago.  wow, it's still up

well im gonna repeat this...
Quote from: "qwe"
my main problem with human morality is that when we discuss something that we've been brought up to see as very morally wrong, we are incapable of having a rational, productive discussion, and instead revert to silly judgements, unproven ideas, and all sorts of logical fallacies

this problem came up then, and it's still popping up on page 17

Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #247 on: October 17, 2006, 01:44:43 AM »
Look, if you want to talk about peadofiles being just 'missunderstood' then thats your perogative but I dont think it has a place in AltScience.
quote="Dogplatter"]
Penguins were actually created in the 1960's by Russian scientists who combined the DNA of otters and birds.  [/quote]


LOL

Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #248 on: October 17, 2006, 04:16:01 AM »
i doubt that this thread will actually affect the views of lawmakers or those in power, and as such i find the discussion to be slightly...i can't quite find the word...

my point is that, unlike the FE theory, this may well put children in a certain position of jeapardy. there really is no reason for this discussion, as the views will not correlate with that of the actual law, especially in differing countries, and this could lead to some readers facing problems.

look, my real angst with this post is that a friend of mine was personally raped as a child (she still is not an adult) and they have suffered extreme trauma from the incident. i really don't understand why this would be openly discussed...if u want to look up child porn thats ur business, if u want to go parade infront of parliment with a sign saying "lets screw kids" thats ur business...but when you talk about child sex like it is nothing more than a game, and "the kids actually like it" i find this quite repulsive.

i, along with many others who browse this forum r not exaclty thrilled with this topic being posted, let alone getting so much interest.

just cut the crap guys, its a serious crime, that affects real people. argue all you want on the shape of the earth and of science and wat have u...but not this.

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beast

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Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #249 on: October 17, 2006, 05:18:42 AM »
Yeah I went out with a girl for a while who had been raped when she was 14 or 15 and she had some pretty serious issues.  I think when you actually mature some what you realise how immature you were as a kid and I think for that reason it is easy to see why there should be restrictions on the age of consent.  I know that young people find this very hard to accept but I'm fairly sure most of you will accept this when you're older and that is that people who haven't matured can't be expected to always make responsible decisions.  I think clearly we have a moral obligation to protect people who can't really be responsible for their actions.  I don't think children and even many adults can really be responsible for their actions and so we need to make sure they're doing the right thing.  Children having sex with adults is a mistake.  It's a mistake because it's easy for the adult to manipulate the child to get what they want and because we live in a society where it is so frowned upon that the child will have horrible feelings about it for a long time.  I also think it is very hard to know what the child actually wants - they might say that it's what they want but I think children very often say what you want them to say.  Maybe it is concievable that a small amount of underage people really do want to have sex with adults and are mature enough to deal with it but I think the vast majority are not and in this case I think it is better to let the minority wait in order to protect the majority.

Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #250 on: October 17, 2006, 05:58:17 AM »
very well put, and i hope that even those who disagree can understand that those personally affected by pedophilia are by far more stubborn on the matter than those who argue for the sake of a cause they have never felt the brunt of.

i have absolutely no problem with any topic called something like "age of consent debate" but a topic called "pedophilia activision..." i mean seriously... just wrong guys, just plain bloody wrong...

i sincerely hope that those of you who wish to continue the moral debate of age of consent start a new topic with such a title...but in my opinion this particular topic should be locked/deleted if ppl don't stop posting in it

pedophilia is a crime, not a debate topic.

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beast

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Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #251 on: October 17, 2006, 06:26:58 AM »
I'm glad you think my post is well put.  I have to disagree with some of the stuff you have to say though.

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i have absolutely no problem with any topic called something like "age of consent debate" but a topic called "pedophilia activision..." i mean seriously... just wrong guys, just plain bloody wrong...


I think the name of a topic is fairly unimportant.  If a mod/admin/person who started the topic changed it's name I really wouldn't care.  I think we should keep a sense of perspective.  We need to understand that it is very hard for people to comprehend what they haven't experienced and I think it's very silly to get insulted over issues that really stem from people's ignorance.  I'm half Asian and I grew up in a very rural part of Australia where there were literally less than 1 in 20 non white kids in my year at school.  I recieved a great deal of racial abuse while going to that school.  I really detest racism, yet I can understand where it comes from and I don't really hate racists (although I may sometimes say that I do - I guess I hate them on a superficial level) because they just don't understand why racism is wrong and why it is so offensive.  I don't tolerate it but neither do I judge people's character because of their ignorance and the society they were brought up in.  The same goes with this topic - maybe people find the topic name insulting but you have to understand that it's being put forward by people who don't know any better.  To somebody who is insulted by it, the concepts mean a lot more to them than they do the people involved.

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i sincerely hope that those of you who wish to continue the moral debate of age of consent start a new topic with such a title...but in my opinion this particular topic should be locked/deleted if ppl don't stop posting in it


This topic shouldn't be deleted.  Again perspective.  It is not the topic title that it is offensive - it is the idea behind them.  I think there is clear difference between talking about an action and actually doing that action.  I actually think in many ways the topic title is good because it challenges our ideals and you can see that it has generated a lot of discussion.

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pedophilia is a crime, not a debate topic.


Everything should be debated.  This idea you seem to be putting forward that we should accept the law without question is a serious fallacy.  I have never met a person who is perfect and if people make the laws we have to accept that they're not always perfect.  If the laws were perfect we wouldn't need politicians.  I really think the most important thing to take from this website is the idea not to accept what we're told but to question it.  It is a questioning nature that has made all the famous scientists and philosophers famous - they're famous because they didn't accept the current knowledge of their time.  The same is definitely crucial for laws.  In many places around the world "sodomy" was as serious a crime as pedophilia not that long ago.  Our morals these days tell us that that's not the case at all.  If morals have changed on that subject, shouldn't we question all our moral values.  As I've stated, there are good reasons why I think pedophilia should remain a crime - but the point is I can back that up in debate.  I'm not just putting forward a mindless "let's accept things how they are" opinion.  If we are to improve society and aim for a world closer to a utopia we need to question everything - even things that have been questioned a million times before.

Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #252 on: October 17, 2006, 06:38:07 AM »
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Again perspective.


the reason i posted in this topic was because i had a perspective beast, as i can see that u also must. it is the others debating this issue that lack a personal involvement in such issues, and as such i was tryiung to express a personal opinion from, yes, my perspective to show how this may change their views before discussing such issues like its nothing.

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I'm not just putting forward a mindless "let's accept things how they are" opinion.


i wasn't aware that my idea of accepting a law that prevents the abuse of children was mindless.

even though i agree that debate of topics is indeed important, this is not a topic i believe in...pedophilia is NOT a topic i can support, or stand passively by and watch as others discuss without actually knowing wat it is they r talking about.[/i]

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beast

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Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #253 on: October 17, 2006, 06:51:28 AM »
When I said "perspective" what I meant was that we need to keep a sense of perspective.  What harm can the name of this topic possibly have?  How is commenting in this topic in any way a support for pedophilia?  What you're debating is really a very trivial matter compared with the actual act of pedophilia - and yet your debating it with the passion as if the title of the this topic and the action are somehow linked.  They not only on different levels, they are different worlds.

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i wasn't aware that my idea of accepting a law that prevents the abuse of children was mindless.


It's not accepting the law that is mindless, it is accepting it without question - you could say "without using your mind to justify it" - if you don't use your mind you are mindless.

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even though i agree that debate of topics is indeed important, this is not a topic i believe in...pedophilia is NOT a topic i can support, or stand passively by and watch as others discuss without actually knowing wat it is they r talking about.


Why?  What effect do you think that is going to have?  Can you see what the difference between talking about pedophilia and committing pedophilia is?  Pretty significant isn't it?  How will people ever gain knowledge if you don't let them express their opinions and then educate them?

Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #254 on: October 20, 2006, 11:35:51 PM »
another friend go sexually harrassed...its the third one in about 6 months, and it cuts me deep wen i see the poor bastards again, they're never the same, nothings ever the same.

its never their fault, but they never accept it

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beast

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Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #255 on: October 26, 2006, 06:29:44 AM »
How the victims feel really has nothing to do with what's being debated.  If two little girls are raped in exactly the same circumstance and the offenders have exactly the same record but one girl gets over it immediately and the other is scarred for life should the pedophiles recieve different punishments?  Is that justice when people recieve different punishments for the same crimes in the same circumstances with the same records?

You may have some kind of emotional response on this issue but all that really means is that your views are biased.  When we're making decisions that so seriously effect people's lives surely we should make the decision in an objective and rational frame of mind.

Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #256 on: October 27, 2006, 09:44:27 AM »
I'm gonna break here from my normal, civil, calm person...and chuck a tantrum.

WHAT THE FLYING FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? WE SHOULDN'T EVEN BE DISCUSSING THIS!

PEODOPHILES ARE THE SCUM OF THE EARTH! YOU UNDERSTAND? HITLER WAS WRONG TO GAS ANYTHING BUT[/b][/u] PEODOPHILES!

THE REASON SEX WITH CHILDREN IS SO DAMN WRONG IS BECAUSE CHILDREN ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE SEX TILL PUBERTY!!!!
WHAT THE FUUUUCK?

Seriously...
 tried to be nice. I tried to not get angry at insultingly rediculous notions.

I TRIED DAMMIT

Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #257 on: October 27, 2006, 11:13:32 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "ItRestsOnInfiniteTurtles"
But children?  I just don't see a situation where the child is fully capable of understanding the whole situation.


What's to understand?  I keep hearing this statement made.  If "understand" means "know and be able to responsibly consider the potential consequences of the act," then I think this is just as much of an argument against sex among adults.

If "understand" means "realize that sex is dirty / sinful / for adults only / for married people only / for people-in-romantic-love only," then I say that these restrictions are purely socially constructed and thus it's coherent to discuss the possible alteration of the social norms.

Personally, my bet is that antipædophilia laws are designed to protect the privilege of adults who want to control the biology of children, not to protect the children themselves.  This should not be too surprising; quite a lot of common law is oriented around protecting somebody's privilege to control somebody else's body.

Wow, what a topic!  How to argue about an emotionally charged topic without getting emotional.

More than half the adult women I know were subjected to adult sexuality while they were children.  From their discussions on the topic, I do not believe it is true to say that the child is unharmed by the practice.  

The biggest harm comes from the adult manipulating the child into preforming the acts.  The abuse of power, whether by physical, emotional, or "economic" advantage, leads to an expectation that adults can not be trusted and that the child's value is not relevant.

For example, a certain child's grand parent threatens that if the girl does not perform for him, he will just use the younger sister the same way, and if he is "tattled on" he will be arrested and they will lose the house they all live in.

An adult has many advantages over any child, and when they use these to force a child to do something deemed legally and morally wrong by society, it is damaging to the child's development.

Consider this, in arguments for pedophilia, substitute bestiality.  the two are much the same.  The subject is not in control of the situation.  The subject has less rights, and often has no one to protect what rights they have.  The difference is that we tend to be less concerned about the development of the beast, and the best is less likely to perform the same acts when it grows older.  And since a large number of pedophiles attack family members, there's the whole incest thing too.

Depending on the age of the subject, the acts can be physically damaging, psychologically scaring, they are acts of abuse.  

Sure there are gray areas.  Do you prosecute the 18 year old boy friend of a 17 year old girl (or 18 Girlfriend of the 17 year old boy)?  What is the most rational age of consent?  What if the youth is lying about their age?

They are why there are courts and judges.  The law is established to set standards, the system is supposed to apply them in a rational manner.

I have an 8 year old boy and a 12 year old daughter, only in a twisted mind would anyone consider them as a fit object for sex.

Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #258 on: October 27, 2006, 11:24:43 AM »
Quote from: "beast"
..Is that justice when people recieve different punishments for the same crimes in the same circumstances with the same records?

You may have some kind of emotional response on this issue but all that really means is that your views are biased.  When we're making decisions that so seriously effect people's lives surely we should make the decision in an objective and rational frame of mind.

No, I have to disagree with you here.  There is nothing wrong with allowing emotion into your decision making process.  What makes logic perferable to emotion?  

We aren't talking about whether the earth is flat or round now, we are talking about whether an adult can be allowed to talk my daughter (or son) into having sex with them.

The gut wrenching response I have to the idea is valid, and can not be invalidated in a burst of logic.

The emotional problems that abused children suffer from throughout their lives can not be ignored by "Logical" arguments.

That one is injured and another not so much does not matter any more than saying "Well, not everyone shot with a gun is killed, so it isn't attempted murder to shoot someone".

It is by it's very nature an emotional debate.

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Erasmus

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Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #259 on: October 27, 2006, 11:38:24 AM »
Quote from: "Curious"
More than half the adult women I know were subjected to adult sexuality while they were children.  From their discussions on the topic, I do not believe it is true to say that the child is unharmed by the practice.


I realize the statistics.  However this could just be that children are raised in such a way that causes them to be adversely affected by sex at a young age... despite an ongoing sexual revolution I would say N. America is still fairly repressed, owing primarily to its Puritanical heritage.

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An adult has many advantages over any child, and when they use these to force a child to do something deemed legally and morally wrong by society, it is damaging to the child's development.


Exactly.  So, all we need to do is get society to stop deeming pedophilia  legally and morally wrong, and everything will be okay.  That's the point of this discussion.  Alternately, somebody might point out a reason that pedophilia to be objectively wrong -- regardless of what society might deem, in which case it's better for society to deem it wrong.  Hence, debate.

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I have an 8 year old boy and a 12 year old daughter, only in a twisted mind would anyone consider them as a fit object for sex.


Would you consider Socrates to have been in a twisted mind?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #260 on: October 27, 2006, 01:37:21 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "Curious"
More than half the adult women I know were subjected to adult sexuality while they were children.  From their discussions on the topic, I do not believe it is true to say that the child is unharmed by the practice.


I realize the statistics.  However this could just be that children are raised in such a way that causes them to be adversely affected by sex at a young age... despite an ongoing sexual revolution I would say N. America is still fairly repressed, owing primarily to its Puritanical heritage.

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An adult has many advantages over any child, and when they use these to force a child to do something deemed legally and morally wrong by society, it is damaging to the child's development.


Exactly.  So, all we need to do is get society to stop deeming pedophilia  legally and morally wrong, and everything will be okay.  That's the point of this discussion.  Alternately, somebody might point out a reason that pedophilia to be objectively wrong -- regardless of what society might deem, in which case it's better for society to deem it wrong.  Hence, debate.

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I have an 8 year old boy and a 12 year old daughter, only in a twisted mind would anyone consider them as a fit object for sex.


Would you consider Socrates to have been in a twisted mind?

Certainly, just because he had great insights into philosophy does not mean he wasn't twisted, in fact it pretty much guarantees it.

As for everything being OK if it was legal and acceptable, you miss the point that it is not an equal relationship.  The adult has the advantage.  The child has almost no power to resist the adults advances, and legally would be hard pressed to testify against someone who forced them into a relationship.  Being a minor, their testimony does not carry the weight of the adult, so when the grown-up says that the child consented, it would be difficult to disprove.

Simply, it as abuse of the authority the adults have over children, and a betrayal of the trust that children are supposed to have in adults.

There is a fuzzy line when you get into teenagers, but look at some of the more extreme cases:  When a man uses a three year old girl (or boy) for sex, there can be no justification, no "Well, they were willing".  The child has no choice and limited understanding of what is happening, the adult is just using the child.

But extremes aside, there is the power factor:  I have been management.  I had people who reported to me, some were fairly attractive females.  It would have been immoral of me to have a relationship with one of them, because I had power and influence over them.  It would not have been a relationship of equals.

Likewise a child can not be the equal of an adult.  The adult's greater power make it an unfair relationship.

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Erasmus

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Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #261 on: October 27, 2006, 01:50:09 PM »
Quote from: "Curious"
As for everything being OK if it was legal and acceptable, you miss the point that it is not an equal relationship.  The adult has the advantage.  The child has almost no power


This is a description of all relationships between adult and child.

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Being a minor, their testimony does not carry the weight of the adult, so when the grown-up says that the child consented, it would be difficult to disprove.


That's not true.  Courts always side with the child.  Additionally I could easily see social structures in place to take care of this.  For example, even with the child's consent it's still the consent of the parent that's required.

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Simply, it as abuse of the authority the adults have over children, and a betrayal of the trust that children are supposed to have in adults.


Yeah I know, I know.  Until you can show that it's bad, you can't call it an abuse.  Adults are always using their authority over children.

As for betrayal of trust... what trust?  Children who don't know about sex don't trust adults not to have sex with them.  Children should be able to trust adults not to injure them, but it has not yet been established that (psychological, obviously) injury due to adult-child sexual relationships does not occur because of the social stigma surrounding this sort of activity.

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look at some of the more extreme cases:  When a man uses a three year old girl (or boy) for sex, there can be no justification, no "Well, they were willing".  The child has no choice and limited understanding of what is happening, the adult is just using the child.


Sure, the extreme cases are always easy.  I could just argue that such relationships should be disallowed because of the high likelihood of serious injury to the child.

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But extremes aside, there is the power factor:  I have been management.  I had people who reported to me, some were fairly attractive females.  It would have been immoral of me to have a relationship with one of them, because I had power and influence over them.  It would not have been a relationship of equals.


That's an interesting comparison.  I do not believe that relationships between employer and employee are immoral.  I believe that coersion by an employer is immoral, of course; but not the relationship itself.  I don't think that relationships need to be between equals in order to be moral.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #262 on: October 27, 2006, 02:33:07 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"

That's an interesting comparison.  I do not believe that relationships between employer and employee are immoral.  I believe that coercion by an employer is immoral, of course; but not the relationship itself.  I don't think that relationships need to be between equals in order to be moral.


And there's the rub.  If it is not between equals, how do you prevent coercion?  

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As for betrayal of trust... what trust? Children who don't know about sex don't trust adults not to have sex with them. Children should be able to trust adults not to injure them, but it has not yet been established that (psychological, obviously) injury due to adult-child sexual relationships does not occur because of the social stigma surrounding this sort of activity.


The "trust issue" is about adults being there to protect and nurture the child, not to use the child for the adults own purposes.  

I suppose that in a perfect society, where sexual activity had no social or emotional baggage, and there was no threat of STDs or unwanted pregnancies...it would still be wrong.

Until the "child" is old enough to understand about sex, they are being used.  They are simply an object that the adult is performing an act upon.  

An interesting study would be to get statistics on the relationships of pedophiles with other adults.  Like most rapists, pedophiles seem to gravitate toward those that they can manipulate and control.

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Erasmus

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Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #263 on: October 27, 2006, 02:43:29 PM »
Quote from: "Curious"
And there's the rub.  If it is not between equals, how do you prevent coercion?


Irrelevant.  If that's reason to prevent sex between unequals, it's reason to prevent any interaction between unequals.... unless you can demonstrate that sex is different for some important reason.

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The "trust issue" is about adults being there to protect and nurture the child, not to use the child for the adults own purposes.


Why can't an adult do both?  Also, why would adults have children in the first place, if not for their own purposes?  Purpose being, "I want children."  It's totally selfish.  But there's nothing inherently wrong with selfishness, or doing things for one's own purpose.

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Until the "child" is old enough to understand about sex, they are being used.  They are simply an object that the adult is performing an act upon.


....so?  Should we also conclude that until the child is old enough to understand art, we should not allow adults to paint kitten's whiskers on their faces, because they're just being used?  You still haven't demonstrated what's so special about sex.

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An interesting study would be to get statistics on the relationships of pedophiles with other adults.  Like most rapists, pedophiles seem to gravitate toward those that they can manipulate and control.


That paragraph is so loaded it's not even funny.  It would also be an interesting study to get the statistics on the relationships of pedophiles with other adults in societies that don't attach stigma to pedophilia.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #264 on: October 27, 2006, 03:17:21 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"

Why can't an adult do both?  Also, why would adults have children in the first place, if not for their own purposes?  Purpose being, "I want children."  It's totally selfish.  But there's nothing inherently wrong with selfishness, or doing things for one's own purpose.

Not a parent, are you?  

Only the most immature of parents have them solely "Because I want them", that is why a person has a doll, not a child.  Raising children is one of the least selfish acts a person can do.  You will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on the child, countless hours, you spend roughly twenty years living for the child.  

And yes, using other people to do "things for one's own purpose" is wrong.

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Erasmus

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Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #265 on: October 27, 2006, 06:58:20 PM »
Quote from: "Curious"
Not a parent, are you?

Only the most immature of parents have them solely "Because I want them",


Whatever.  I plan on one day having kids, and effectively becoming a different person against my will.  Having kids satisfies and instinctive need.

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And yes, using other people to do "things for one's own purpose" is wrong.


My question was, why?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #266 on: October 27, 2006, 09:07:30 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
.

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And yes, using other people to do "things for one's own purpose" is wrong.


My question was, why?


No it wasn't, or at least it wasn't stated as a question you said:

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But there's nothing inherently wrong with selfishness, or doing things for one's own purpose.


I disagree.

You want to know why?  That's a tough one, for me it is a basic core value.  

Why do I think sex with a corpse is wrong?  Or with an animal, or an animal's corpse? (Sorry, I read Fark and they just had an article about a guy caught doing that.)  

Why should a society set any morals?  Why are sexual taboos so prevalent in societies?  Hell, I'm just a computer hack, this is the stuff of Master's thesis.  do we as members of society have a right to challenge the morals of our society?  Sure!  they change all of the time, but lets look at the issue from another angle:

What causes a person to become sexually attracted to someone who has not biologically reached an age of sexual activity?

Again, I am not talking about the teenager here.  I am talking about the adult who decides that they want a five year old to orally please them, the grown up who wants to have intercourse with an eight year old, The dirty old man who wants to offer kids candy for a quick fondle.

Sexual relationships involve an emotional impact.  Even grown ups, with more experience and emotional maturity get twisted up in them.  How is a child supposed to emotionally handle it?

My child can't make good choices about watching TV, you expect her to make good choices about sex, without society telling her it isn't time yet?

And since there are pregnancies and STDs, and grown-ups have a problem being responsible with sex among themselves, what else is society to do?

?

Erasmus

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Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #267 on: October 28, 2006, 01:37:49 AM »
Quote from: "Curious"
No it wasn't, or at least it wasn't stated as a question


I did state "it" as a question when I said, "What's so special about sex?"  My statement about selfishness is an expression of my personal belief that I was not inviting you to debate... though you are free to do so.

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Why should a society set any morals?


That's an easy one.

We should set moral standards for two reasons.  One is that it's easier to convince people to behave a certain way "just because" than to explain to them why it's better to behave that way.  The other is that it's a means of implicitly establishing personal security... abiding by moral behavior is a way of saying, "I won't do X to you, and you won't do X to me."

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Why are sexual taboos so prevalent in societies?


You mean, in our society.

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I am talking about the adult who decides that they want a five year old to orally please them, the grown up who wants to have intercourse with an eight year old, The dirty old man who wants to offer kids candy for a quick fondle.


Well, I think this is a little unfair.  Suppose we look at it from the angle of the clean, well-educated, handsome, charming .... architect who meets an adorable, emotionally open eight-year-old girl.  You can't automatically label all pedophiles "dirty old men" because it suits the stereotype that you want to impose on them and that people who are arguing for social change want to tear down.

Basically, my point is that if you're going to argue that pedophilia is wrong, you have to explain why sex is bad for children in a way that it isn't bad for adults, and why just letting the parents decide whether to let the kid have sex doesn't solve the problem.

By analogy, consider alcohol.  Some people might think it's morally wrong to give children alcohol.  I'd say, "Well, why is it okay to give adults alcohol?"  Because they are old enough to decide on their own.  "Fine," I say, "What if the child's parent chooses alcohol for them, which is the case with all other aspects of the child's life anyway?"  A better response would be, "Because something about a child's biology is sufficiently different from that of an adult that the damage to a child from use of alcohol will be much greater," or, "Because due to some biological property of children, children are more likely to become addicted to alcohol."  Those are good arguments (that in this case I disagree with in their unqualified forms), much better than, "Well, they're too young because they're too young and society has rules."
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #268 on: October 28, 2006, 06:26:11 AM »
This is an interesting topic indeed. Frankly, our society likes to get on the high horse when it comes to this sort of thing. I mean we allow 100 year old men to marry 22 year old women. Our societ is full of contradictions wouldnt you say?
he Engineer and GeoGuy are douchebags. Period.

Also, they smell bad.

Pedophilia Activism -- Does Sex Harm Children?
« Reply #269 on: October 28, 2006, 07:43:55 AM »
Quote from: "Joseph Bloom"
This is an interesting topic indeed. Frankly, our society likes to get on the high horse when it comes to this sort of thing. I mean we allow 100 year old men to marry 22 year old women. Our societ is full of contradictions wouldnt you say?


there is no doubting that in most cases a 22 yr old woman and a 100 yr old man are both sexually mature

however paedophilia is more the...relations between one who is not fully sexually developed, or mentally...the rough age was estimated at 18, and thats where it stays. thats not to say young girls of 12 cant get pregnant, or boys of 22 mite still be immature (suckers  :) )

show me a 22 yr old girl without her period, and a 100 yr old who has yet to go thru puberty and ill admit there is a contradiction