To Dionysios: regarding Chinese leaders

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To Dionysios: regarding Chinese leaders
« on: February 15, 2006, 04:11:44 PM »
This is in response to a passing comment from Dionysios in another thread:

Why do you think Mao is less evil than Chang?  I'm just completely baffled by this.  Naturally, as a Chinese who prefers democracy, I'm a little biased, but I'm willing to listen to any theory you may have.

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Anonymous

Chiang Kai-Shek and the Illegal Narcotics Trade
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2006, 01:49:44 PM »
flying leaf,
  1)  You really are Chinese?  (No offense, but in an earlier heated debate in which I was depicted as the big racist a certain person chimed in as a Chinese calling me racist as well.  I know this was not you, but that person's statements seemed to overemphasize his Chinese identity which made me suspect it may have possibly only been someone like '6strings' logging on as another 'Chinese' person to help further his case against me as a racist by inventing third party support.  I apologize for bringing this up, but the previous episode has made me even more suspicious than i already was.  I am interested to know what part of China you or your family comes from as I am indeed about to visit China for a month.  If you ever visit there I recommend the Lonely Planet Guide to China.  
  As to Mao Tse Tung, where should I begin.  You should read a book by Alfred McCoy entitled 'The Politics of Heroin-CIA Involvement in the World Drug Trade.'  This book came out in 1972, but a third and updated edition was recently published.  The CIA did unsucessfully try to ban the book when it came out by putting pressure on the publisher.  The British as is well known had an international drug trade in which they brought opium into China at least since the 1700's.  This was very pronounced in the 1800's.  By 1930, over 40 million Chinese were addicted to opium.  When Mao Tse Tung won the Chinese 'civil' war in 1949, this drug business came to an end as far as mainland China was concerned.  It was illegal in Maoist China to use drugs.  All the drug adicts were put through a massive program in which they were made to watch 'propaganda' films which exposed the drugs (primarily opium) in China as a capitalist and colonialist infiltration of China by the west (which indeed it was).  Those few who persisted in their addiction were sent to labor camps.  By the mid-1950's the Chinese opium addiction problem had become non-existent.  Now I am not a fan of the later cultural revolution, but this was a major positive accomplishment.
  Neither did maoist China extinguish traditional medicine.  This actually did well and exists under various forms of exercise, medicine,  et cetera as qigong.  Qigong medicine is based on traditional Chinese medicine.  (The best institute of this traditional Chinese medicine I know in the Unted States is the Yo Han Institute in Culver City(LA), CA, but there are a great number more in China itself.  The Maoist government often used this possibly because it was the only thing available, but I am not giving a judgment on that.  They were approving traditional medicine at a time when it was being persecuted in the United States (like traditionalists of western medicine such as John Christopher, who had many legal problems).
  Chiang Kai-shek was supported by the United States.  He is the founder of modern Taiwan.  When he went to Taiwan in 1949, he set up a murderous dictatorship which peresecuted the Taiwan Chinese.  This is very well documented in the 1965 book 'Formosa Betrayed' by George Kerr.  Chiang Kai-shek was also a major drug dealer.  He was became a pawn of the western imperialists.  traditional political China had unfortunately ceased (at least for a time) in 1912 with the overthrow of the monarchy by Sun Yat-sen (perhaps the Chinese equivalent of Lenin).  Mao and Chiang both worked for and respected Sun Yat-Sen.  These two (Mao and Chiang) inheritored the political power in China from Sun Yat-sen.   Actually Chiang was the leader and his army was called the Kuomintang (KMT).  These were financed by and worked closest with the western powers.  China had heavy foreign involvement in its affairs a hundred years ago around the time the monarchy fell.  The KMT did not in any way limit the drug trade, but facilitated it.  This is part of the reason for Mao's rebellion against Chiang.  And it was not only Mao, but Sun Yat-sen's wife became a maoist.  So did even Pu-yi - the last Emperor of China (the little boy from 1912) declared his rapprochement with Mao rather than with Chiang in the 1950's (this was after having become Emperor again for a number of years in the exact same palace in the Forbidden City in Beijing while the Japanese held it throughout  the entirety of the 1930's and until 1945).  (The last Emperor of China was dethroned because of those truly malignant americans.)  All this is documented in Pu-yi's autobiography which was long ago translated into english.  I got my copy in the back of a bookstore in the Philadelphia Chinatown.  
  As to the drug trade perpetuated by Chiang Kai-shek and his Kuomintang, the KMT was geographically split in two halves (east and west) in 1949.  The eastern half went to Taiwan.  The western half were the recipients of Air America (the CIA's airline) support throught the 1950's with the hope of overthrowing the Maoist Chinese government.  The support continued after that even until today but the aim after the 1950's focused more exclusively on the drug trade.  The western Kuomintang became the basis of the Golden Triangle.  The other major warlord to come to the fore in this area was Khun Sa, who cam along in the 1960's.  The CIA has cooperated with Khun Sa and the KMT in the growing of opium and the processing of this into heroin.  The CIA has repeated this process in Honduras and Afghanistan and to a lesser extent in Peru and Columbia though these last two are mostly used to grow coca which is processed into cocaine.  (I am not saying coca itself is bad in its traitional and medicinal uses.  Sniffing white cocaine powder after processing a certain part of it is obviously not the traditional use of this coca from South America.)
  Returning to the Chiang Kai-shek, I have read that stock speculation occurred immediately prior to the Korean War which greatly benefited a small circle of americans including General Douglas MacArthur and Senator Joseph McCarthy as well as a small circle of Chinese surrounding Chiang Kai-shek.  I recommend a dissenting history of the Korean War written in the early 1950's by Isidore F. Stone.  I. F. Stone was a prolific jewish writer.  He was editor of the 'Nation' from 1940-1946 and perhaps the leader of the intellectual left in the 1950's.  He was the Noam Chomsky of his era.
  Chiang Kai-shek was an american supported terrorist.  This is true of most of the terrorist regimes in recent decades:  Syngman Rhee's South Korean anti-communist dictatorship in the 1950's, Pinochet in Chile (an example of religious support for terror as well as the protestant infiltration of catholic Latin America can be seen in the friendship of filth like Jimmy Swaggart with dictators like Pinochet), the apartheid regime in South Africa, the racist (and increasingly apartheid) government of Israel,
the anti-Castro Cuban network based in Florida, Hussein's Iraq in the 1980's when it actually was slaughtering Iranians and gassing Kurds with American support, and the CIA-connected drug lords in Myanmar (Burma) to name some.
  To conclude, I am personally a monarchist in general and China is not an exception.  I am not a Maoist, and his government certainly made mistakes.  If anything the Chinese government's mistake involves becoming more like america in recent years.
  A word about missions in China - I am wary of the misionary movement within (and actually against) China as being a tool of the west.  This is no way helps bring China closer to God.  I belive exclusively in the ancient Orthodox Christian Church, but to introduce Chinese to protestant or even catholic missions (or anything even "orthjodox" with a "convert to get numbers" attitude is only a nominal change.  I tend (not always, but usually) to side with the Chinese government in being wary of foreign missions as history would testify it is justified in doing so.  
  Returning to tradtion one has and seeking the truth from there is better than following foreign gods.  The Kingdom of Heaven is within.

- Dionysios

To Eliminate Confusion
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2006, 02:02:59 PM »
the

To Dionysios: regarding Chinese leaders
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2006, 09:11:44 AM »
the

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pspunit

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Re: Chiang Kai-Shek and the Illegal Narcotics Trade
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2006, 09:09:25 PM »
Quote from: "Anonymous"
All the drug adicts were put through a massive program in which they were made to watch 'propaganda' films which exposed the drugs (primarily opium) in China as a capitalist and colonialist infiltration of China by the west (which indeed it was).  Those few who persisted in their addiction were sent to labor camps.  By the mid-1950's the Chinese opium addiction problem had become non-existent.  Now I am not a fan of the later cultural revolution, but this was a major positive accomplishment.


I gotta say, I don't see propaganda and forced labor as a positive, my friend.
Three people of different nationalities walk into the bar. Two of them say something smart, and the third one makes a mockery of his fellow countrymen by acting dumb."

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Anonymous

The Role Of Punishment / John Birch Society Propaganda
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2006, 12:47:49 PM »
pspunit,
  You can call it what you want.  Propaganda is but a word.  We could call it education, which would be very much indeed what it was.
  You have your right to your opinion, but (as I believe) this narcotics should be a crime (and it was then illegal in China).  Add to that it solved a centuries long problem.  Do you believe in punishment for crimes at all?  I absolutely have to question if you do.  This was a tremendous accomplishment which destroyed a centuries long horror in less than a half a decade.  They had forced labor prisons for those few who insisted on continuing their crime which had long sapped the strength and money of the people of the country, and made its enemies rich.  Mao and the implementors of this program should be recognized and imitated in this program in particular.  The US does not need more prisons which are bastions of hideous immorality which it is never the less wrongly building.  Fewer yet effective prisons that change criminals for the better are needed.  The US should imitate this particular Maoist program.  The leadership of the US government are opposed to any such thing because it works as the Chinese can testify.  The US, however, waited until the anti-traditional "cultural revolution" of the late 1960's to to recognize the Maoist government as Nixon did in 1971.  You are completely wrong if you think that's forced labor especially in those conditions is bad.  I would say just about everybody (including the liars who deny it) would rather do forced labor than be in a prison where they are often confronted with the possibility of being raped which is the gross reality of many US prisons these days.  
  As to the narcotics trade, I shpould point out there is another completely opposite view out there.  It is the US propaganda initiated by the US "anti-"narcotics chief Harry Anslinger, in many ways comparable to John Edgar Hoover.  Anslinger (1920's to 1960's) had deals with the real narcotics traders while he put out propaganda that the Chinese were behind it all, which was utterly baseless.  If I am correct he lost control of the ineffective Federal Narcotics Commision in 1962 when JFK fired him (which should have been done a lot earlier, a testimony against earlier presidential administrations), at which point the Federal Narcotics Commission actually became effective and won new enemies such as the FBI and CIA who actually covered for real drug traffickers.  Its enemies succeeded in having the FNC abolished in 1968, a victim of its own success.  The DEA was created in the vaccum and became its effective continuation.  The DEA was not initially corrupt as its predecessor had been earlier, and significant avances were made in halting international narcotics trading and production in the mid-1970's.  Since Meyer Lansky and "Lucky" Luciano had set it up around 1950/1951, Marseille had been the main heroin distribution centre in western europe while the opium for that was grown in central Turkey.  This was disrupted to an extent in the mid-1970's and other areas like the Golden Triangle in southeast asia had to be used.  Anslinger's views are false, but they prevented the majority of people from knowing the truth about this and they are continued today by such extreme organizations as the John Birch Society who sells Joseph Douglass's book "Red Cocaine."  I have read this entire book and books from the opposite point of view as many more of them exist (due to the fact that many more informed people find it credible that organizations like the CIA are involved in drug trade) , and Douglass's book is unsubstantiated garbage.  It is preciseley an extension of Joseph McCarthy's view that "the communists are behind it all."  His chief source is a czech general that for some unmentioned reason did not mention his alleged knowledge of the vast soviet conspiracy to bring down the capitalist countries with drugs until 25 years after he defected.  Yeah, right.  Anyway, I just wanted to mention that there is another view out there concerning the drug trade, though it is more of a source of confusion than anything (as it probably is CIA propaganda, or something to the same effect, reguardless of who finances garbage like John Birch literature).

- Dionysios

To Dionysios: regarding Chinese leaders
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2006, 04:23:33 PM »
For the moment (sort of quick reply until I have time to compose a more thorough one):

Yes I am indeed Chinese.  My father is from Jian-Xi (River West) Province, and my mother from Jian-Su Province (near Shang-hi).  Both of my families evacuated to Taiwan right before communists took over China, and suffered much during and afterwards because of it.  As much as I consider communism to be a grand idea for civilized society, I can never tolerate anyone believing that it can be realistically implemented.  I am biased because of all the horror stories I have heard from family members, both from the ones who went to Taiwan, and the ones who were left behind in China.

I just visited China this past summer, and it was a great experience.  It's probably very akin to how many people in the U.S. felt after visiting Europe.  Although because of the rapid build-up, many places felt just a little too touristy and artificial.

Having been educated both in Taiwan and the U.S., I like to think I'm fairly educated as to the uglier sides of both countries, from the opium trade around the 1900s and the unlawful occupation from US forces on Chinese land, to what KMT did in the name of "National Security" during and after the evacuation.  However, I think the KMT actions in Taiwan are more like what Abraham Lincoln did in order to preserve the Union during the Civil War, and not so much "ethnic cleansing" like so many Taiwanese keeps spouting off.  At most, it was like the action of National Guards at Kent State University during the Flower-power protests.

I know Chang wasn't a perfect leader.  He was a good soldier who was put into the leadership position because of his friendship and support of Dr. Sun, and his family ties with the U.S.  I never heard of of 'Western KMT' nor of the drug trades.  Although it sounds speculative, I'll look it up.

Hmm.. I need to learn what "quick reply" means...

Re: Chiang Kai-Shek and the Illegal Narcotics Trade
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2006, 04:57:51 PM »
I read through your post again and a few things that infuriated me the most the first time has yet to be addressed.  Now that I'm calmer I'll address them.

Quote from: "Anonymous"
Chiang Kai-shek was supported by the United States.  He is the founder of modern Taiwan.  When he went to Taiwan in 1949, he set up a murderous dictatorship which peresecuted the Taiwan Chinese.  This is very well documented in the 1965 book 'Formosa Betrayed' by George Kerr.


Calling Chiang's militia rule of Taiwan a "murderous dictatorship" while praising Mao's oppressive regime that sent millions to their deaths?  If your basis is the "228" event, it happened in 1947 before the "dictatorship" was formed.  I'm not condoning what happened afterwards, but compared to Mao, Chiang Kai-Shek is a saint.  What Chiang did after 1949 helped Taiwan to become the modern success it is today.  Nobody can deny that.  As to Mao, even in China he is ridiculed today for his bad ideas, by people who succeeded him.  China is decades behind the rest of the world because of Mao.

It's also funny that you can believe that 5,000 - 10,000 Taiwanese were slaughtered in the 228 event based on the reports of one single reporter, but deny The Holocaust, which has thousands of pictures and documents as proof.

Quote
Chiang Kai-shek was also a major drug dealer.  He was became a pawn of the western imperialists.


I'm not even going to dignify that baseless nonsense with a rebuttal.

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 traditional political China had unfortunately ceased (at least for a time) in 1912 with the overthrow of the monarchy by Sun Yat-sen (perhaps the Chinese equivalent of Lenin).  Mao and Chiang both worked for and respected Sun Yat-Sen.  These two (Mao and Chiang) inheritored the political power in China from Sun Yat-sen.


"Traditional Political China"?  You mean the Ching Dynasty Chinese Empire, which was as corrupt as they come, so weak that it cannot defend its borders against the Japanese, so xenophobic that it tried to support the Boxer Rebellion, so ineffectual that the Boxer Rebellion failed, and so ineffectual that millions of Chinese fell under the lull of opium?  That "tradition"?

Dr. Sun Yat-sen started the Revolution in 1911 because he believed in democracy.  He could not be further from Lenin, and I am insulted that you compared Dr. Sun to that murderous dictator (in this case, the name fits).

Dr. Sun never approved of Mao's communist ideas.  To say Mao inherited power from Dr. Sun is a gross exaggeration of history.

Maybe I'll have more later.  Even I'm getting tired of this...

To Dionysios: regarding Chinese leaders
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2006, 02:17:57 AM »
the

To Dionysios: regarding Chinese leaders
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2006, 02:28:39 AM »
the

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6strings

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To Dionysios: regarding Chinese leaders
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2006, 12:07:02 PM »
It should be noted, however, that any biases he's obtained from said schooling are irrelevant as they do nothing to inalidates the points he makes.

To Dionysios: regarding Chinese leaders
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2006, 05:31:03 PM »
the

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Erasmus

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To Dionysios: regarding Chinese leaders
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2006, 07:09:14 PM »
Quote from: "Dionysios"
I am currently in Xi'an, China and having been here for some time and talked with common people in different parts of the country I would say that Mao Tse Tung is respected throughout the country.


If I were raised knowing never to have any feelings toward Our Great Leader other than absolute love and devotion, lest I forfeit life and limb, I'd have a bit of respect for him too.

Or are the extensive human rights violations in China, like the Holocaust, mentioned in an as-yet-unpublished chapter of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

To Dionysios: regarding Chinese leaders
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2006, 07:18:16 PM »
the

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Cinlef

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To Dionysios: regarding Chinese leaders
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2006, 06:30:04 PM »
Quote from: "Dionysios"
I am currently in Xi'an, China and having been here for some time and talked with common people in different parts of the country I would say that Mao Tse Tung is respected throughout the country.  

Thats a fun side effect of settling up an oppresive dictatorship, you get to set up a cult of personality. And of course when everyone is teeling you how great Mao is and those who say otherwise get to be inmprisoned tortured or just plain dissapear is it really so odd that people respect him. Mao killed tens of millions of people in the Cultural Revolution. But let me guess never happened right?
Sigh
An enraged
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

To Dionysios: regarding Chinese leaders
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2006, 07:33:01 PM »
the

To Dionysios: regarding Chinese leaders
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2006, 02:46:13 AM »
the

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Cinlef

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To Dionysios: regarding Chinese leaders
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2006, 03:41:26 PM »
Dionysios just out of curiosity where exactly do you live?
I'm not asking for your adress just the country as you seem to be constantly mentionyng where you are and it's a different place each time.
A curious
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

To Dionysios: regarding Chinese leaders
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2006, 10:53:42 PM »
the

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Cinlef

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To Dionysios: regarding Chinese leaders
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2006, 12:56:37 PM »
Yeah I probably should have noticed that. Sorry
An unobservant
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

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17 November

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Re: Chiang Kai-Shek and the Illegal Narcotics Trade
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2008, 12:17:11 PM »
Quote from: Dionysios
Chiang Kai-shek was also a major drug dealer.  He was a pawn of the western imperialists.

Quote from: flyingleaf
I'm not even going to dignify that baseless nonsense with a rebuttal.

Since at least 1927, Shanghai (controlled by Chiang Kai-shek) was the biggest supplier of opium (and its derivatives such as heroin) to the world.  Since the Arnold Rothstein era (Meyer Lansky's mentor and the jewish leader of the mafia in america from circa 1908 to 1928), the Greek Elioupolis gang trafficked narcotics from Turkey and Chiang's China to France from where these narcotics were shipped to america (i.e. the French connection).  Chiang Kai-shek's Chinese empire received the majority of its income through the drug trade as the British had since the eighteenth century.   He inherited this with help from the Ezra brothers (two jewish brothers who dominated the drug trade in Shanghai until they were arrested in 1933) and from Chinese warlords who profited from narcotics trading. 

  This information is available to any objective researcher.  Three books I would recommend:

1)  'The Strength of the Wolf' by Douglas Valentine, a history of the FBN (the predecessor of the DEA) which was so succesful in exposing the links between government agencies and the mafia that it acquired enemies not only in the mob but in the form of government agencies like the CIA and FBI which led to its downfall in 1968 and the founding of the DEA in 1973. 
http://www.douglasvalentine.com/books.html

2)  Spymaster:  Dai Li and the Chinese Secret Service by Frederic Wakeman
http://books.google.com/books?id=jYYYQYK6FAYC&pg=RA1-PA243&lpg=RA1-PA243&dq=shanghai+narcotics&source=web&ots=hCPRwTLHZp&sig=fEO6FQhyAWXaVtQXWODXh-BnPgk#PPP1,M1

3)  The Politics of Heroin by Alfred McCoy
http://www.drugtext.org/library/books/McCoy/default.htm