Occam's Razor

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JaneRE

Occam's Razor
« on: March 11, 2007, 06:41:19 AM »
How does FE stand up to the principles of Occam's (also known as Ockham's) Razor, ie (if I may use my *amazing* simplification skills) The theory with the least number of crackpot assumptions is the best one?

And, also, how have y'all proved the existance of the Black Lord or whatever you call that giant-master-Sauron-type-guy that surpasses all the government and stuff? I just don't get it, it's a little to Matrix-y to me. (This entity guy may be kind of out of date or something, but I recall reading it somewhere on this site before and it always bothered me....)

I'm not looking to be attacked and especially not with any sort of hostility. I'm just pointing stuff out, but I'll probably be attacked anyways.

This is also my first post, however, I've been reading posts on this site for ages (and, sometimes, laughing at them :3)

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JaneRE

Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2007, 07:05:54 AM »
From Wiki: Originally a tenet of the reductionist philosophy of nominalism, it is more often taken today as a heuristic maxim that advises economy, parsimony, or simplicity in scientific theories.


Another question I want to get out there: Eventually, wouldn't the oceans begin to melt the ice wall? And what effect does Global Warming  have on the icewall? (assuming that Global Warming is real)

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RESOCR

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Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2007, 09:53:41 AM »
From Wiki: Originally a tenet of the reductionist philosophy of nominalism, it is more often taken today as a heuristic maxim that advises economy, parsimony, or simplicity in scientific theories.


Another question I want to get out there: Eventually, wouldn't the oceans begin to melt the ice wall? And what effect does Global Warming  have on the icewall? (assuming that Global Warming is real)

Do the oceans melt Antarctica at any spectacular rate?
Quote from: ice wall gard 469320
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Atmosphere gets thinner with altitude
And so does your theory

Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2007, 10:57:26 AM »
How does FE stand up to the principles of Occam's (also known as Ockham's) Razor, ie (if I may use my *amazing* simplification skills) The theory with the least number of crackpot assumptions is the best one?

Tried this already.. Occam's Razor does apply here, but you're never going to get them to admit it applies.

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[][][]

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Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2007, 11:38:25 AM »
From Wiki: Originally a tenet of the reductionist philosophy of nominalism, it is more often taken today as a heuristic maxim that advises economy, parsimony, or simplicity in scientific theories.


Another question I want to get out there: Eventually, wouldn't the oceans begin to melt the ice wall? And what effect does Global Warming  have on the icewall? (assuming that Global Warming is real)

Never assume anything is real, that is the same attitude that causes people to swallow dubious theories about the "curvation of the earth" just because it is a popular belief.
The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us. -Some Frenchy

Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2007, 11:58:26 AM »
Occams Razor is a principle, not a law. It is a concept, not a law.

There's no reason to take something as true or false based on how complicated it is. That's ridiculous. It's more a guideline to keep things simple, not a law with which to debunk theories.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 02:09:58 PM by Phentos »

Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2007, 11:59:58 AM »
Occam's Razor applies directly to FE theory because every "proof" provided could also explain a round Earth. The difference is we have proof that the Round option is true. At this point the argument falls back on the indestructable conspiracy.

Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2007, 12:04:40 PM »
Occam's Razor applies directly to FE theory because every "proof" provided could also explain a round Earth. The difference is we have proof that the Round option is true. At this point the argument falls back on the indestructable conspiracy.

No. You have an explanation supported by evidence; whereas both are supported, you cannot dictate one to be the correct one.

Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2007, 12:06:51 PM »
Occam's Razor applies directly to FE theory because every "proof" provided could also explain a round Earth. The difference is we have proof that the Round option is true. At this point the argument falls back on the indestructable conspiracy.

No. You have an explanation supported by evidence; whereas both are supported, you cannot dictate one to be the correct one.

An explanation supported by evidence and an explanation with no evidence. Yeah that's what I just said. What?

Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2007, 12:16:34 PM »


An explanation supported by evidence and an explanation with no evidence. Yeah that's what I just said. What?

No, that isn't what you just said. Read it to figure it out.

We're talking about explanations here, not evidence, but-- if you want to-- we can get into that too. When it comes to dealing with the Earth's form or shape, we have only evidence. This isn't an abstract theory or concept. Ergo, what we -- as pseudo-scientists -- are trying to find is an explanation for all the evidence we have.

Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2007, 12:18:31 PM »
What are you talking about? I said there is evidence that points to both and then there is evidence that points only to a round Earth. When faced with this, FE theory always resorts to the conspiracy. That's the point I am trying to make.

Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2007, 02:08:38 PM »
What are you talking about? I said there is evidence that points to both and then there is evidence that points only to a round Earth. When faced with this, FE theory always resorts to the conspiracy. That's the point I am trying to make.

I'd much rather you actually bother to read and comprehend what I say. Saves us both time going in circles.

Evidence does not point at anything. Evidence is foundation for explanation; it does not contain any director with it telling you which it supports. Where RE is an explanation, and FE is an explanation, you have evidence that can be used to support both given you have a fitting explanation.

Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2007, 02:09:24 PM »
Evidence does point to things. If it pointed to nothing it would not be evidence.

Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2007, 02:12:52 PM »
Instead of arguing semantics you could just agree with what I said. Now that would be quicker than going in circles for you.

"evidence to support both" you said. Yes that is true, such evidence exists. There is (much, much) evidence, however, that does not support FE theory and yet does support RE "theory". So which model would a logical person choose in this instance?

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Dioptimus Drime

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Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2007, 02:20:23 PM »
Occam's Razor only states the plausibility. As Phentos said, it's a concept not a LAW. Occam's Razor alone cannot PROVE anything at all. It merely points out that something with more logical basis should be accepted until more evidence comes along (if it does) to prove the opposing theory. It doesn't apply, however, whatsoever, to the Round Earth/Flat Earth debate. It's up for grabs whether or not the evidence for the Round Earth Theory is more copious than the Flat Earth Theory.


~D-Draw

Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2007, 02:22:49 PM »
Occam's Razor applies to whether or not Occam's Razor applies to the FE debate.

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Dioptimus Drime

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Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2007, 02:26:31 PM »
Occam's Razor applies to whether or not Occam's Razor applies to the FE debate.
Why? Do you even know how it works?

Occam's Razor works when both sides' evidences are exhausted and there is no more debate for either side. It was stated because if neither sides have any more evidence against each other, there must be some way to decide which one is correct. So Occam's Razor states the more likely conclusion is the one with the least assumptions. However, neither sides' evidences are exhausted, so I don't see how logically Occam's Razor can apply at all here.

~D-Draw

Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2007, 02:27:59 PM »
100% of FE theory is assumptions.

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Dioptimus Drime

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Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2007, 02:41:36 PM »
100% of FE theory is assumptions.
Not true. There's still evidence towards it, let alone evidence against the round Earth theory. And still Occam's Razor does not apply for the reasons previously stated.

~D-Draw

Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2007, 02:45:16 PM »
There is evidence towards it. This evidence also could indicate a RE. There is further evidence that cannot possibly point to a Flat Earth yet could point to a Round one. Therefore FE theory is 100% assumption because all the evidence that cannot support FE theory is explained away with the conspiracy which is not a suitable, nor a scientific esplanation. That's hwo i feel and I won't be swayed on it.

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RESOCR

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Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2007, 02:45:51 PM »
100% of FE theory is assumptions.
Not true. There's still evidence towards it, let alone evidence against the round Earth theory. And still Occam's Razor does not apply for the reasons previously stated.

~D-Draw

Neither theory is even complete. People must remember in redefining the shape of the earth, you are redefining the behavior of the universe. 90% of the physics involved may be the same between the two, but that other 10% has profound impact. So we don't even know how much evidence is even there for one side or the other.
Quote from: ice wall gard 469320
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Atmosphere gets thinner with altitude
And so does your theory

Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2007, 11:44:32 PM »
What profoundly impacted physics are these you speak of?

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Franc T., Planar

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Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2007, 12:13:30 AM »
How does FE stand up to the principles of Occam's (also known as Ockham's) Razor, ie (if I may use my *amazing* simplification skills) The theory with the least number of crackpot assumptions is the best one

Round Earthism is based on a great number of crackpot assumptions, if by crackpot you mean absurd and anti-scientific. We, on the other hand, do not hold to such assumptions.

If you mean "crackpot" in terms of popular belief, then yes, Flat Earthism is considered crackpot by many. So is Neo-Darwinism, Relativity, and the position that racism is not a good idea.

Broadcasting live from the Republic of Canada!
 
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Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2008, 03:17:24 PM »
your all idiots

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Pope Zera

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Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2008, 03:24:06 PM »
Occam's Razor has a +15 enhancement bonus to bypass enemy damage reduction.

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markjo

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Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2008, 03:27:28 PM »
What profoundly impacted physics are these you speak of?

Well, gravitation for one.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2008, 04:16:59 PM »

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Kill-9

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Username

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Re: Occam's Razor
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2008, 04:40:37 PM »
For one, I don't know of any theories in science that are justified on simplicity alone.

Also, simplicity will never add to the *LIKELIHOOD* of a hypothesis. Rather, it adds to the overall *probability*, and is for this reason known as a 'superempirical value' among philosophers of science.

To clarify this point, i.e. to clarify the jargon, say we have two empirically equivalent hypotheses, i.e. they explain the data equally well. Because for each thing one theory explains the other does as well, we say the theories have the same *LIKELIHOOD*.

Simplicity adds to our probability which also takes into account either our subjective degree of belief in the hypothesis, or its rating in terms of pragmatic values like SIMPLICITY, PARSIMONY, CONSERVATISM, etc.

Flat Earth is obviously less parsimonious since it considers all the planets to be created by the same astronomical principles, and result in a less diverse array of different planets. If FE claims that they see the universe radically different, then CONSERVATISM is on RE's side. To overcome the influence RE has in pragmatic value's, FE will have to explain AT THE VERY LEAST one additional and agreed upon piece of observed data. SO FAR THIS HAS NOT BEEN DONE.

FE'ers, like Mr Username and Ms Bishop, are basically just ejaculating their emotions toward the way they'd like the world to be. They have not shown it the way scientific inductive logic asks of them. If they cannot do it, so much the worse for FE.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 04:46:27 PM by Aufbau20 »