Mathematics, anyone?

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Physical Proof

Mathematics, anyone?
« on: February 09, 2006, 05:10:11 PM »
Okay, I am a conspiracy theorist big time.  But this??? its just plain retarded.  I have a degree in Theoretical Physics.  Can anyone prove ANY of this with mathematics.  

I would like proof of the constant acceleration of the earth

where did the new horizons NASA mission go?  where is pluto?  how does GPS work?  the man flying around the world this very moment, hes faking it right????  I dont have a rockhard cognitive dissonance, so im open to new ideas.  and if anyone understood that concept then you stubborn people would give up already.  


enlighten me

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Erasmus

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Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2006, 06:14:16 PM »
As you have a degree in theoretical physics, surely you understand that mathematics is only used to formalize theories, and that proving theories is not a worthwhile goal of scientists.  The statement "The Earth accelerates upwards at a constant rate of 1g" is already just such a formalism.  What more do you want?

Probably what you're really asking for is some kind of usefulness from this theory, right?  What you guys usually call "predictive value?"  Well, I think that FE'ers cover their bases by claiming that all predictions of the FE theory are unverifiable due to force applied by an agent with unknown motives.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Physical Proof

Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2006, 07:22:44 PM »
unknown motives.  thats not an answer, thats a way to avoid answering.  you all are afraid because you know you have no answers.  there is such thing as newtons gravitational constant. are you aware?  it will tell you the force of gravity of an object according to its mass.  wierd, it has held true each time we've sent probes to other planets.  NASA plots paths for their probes according to the gravitational force of other planets.  oh, wait, you claim that even though anyone with two eyes can see that these planets are obviously there, they're just optical illusions put in place by a world government.  right.

proving theories is a worthwhile goal of scientists.  millions of theories have been proven and disproven since the beginning of human intuition.  i could pick from any of them, im sure you are familiar with at least thousands.  they make conveniences in your life possible.  if no one ever tested theories, we would still be living in caves...

as I am a scientist, I ask questions.  When I ask a question, I want a quantative answer.  OK, there is a force of 1g acting upon the earth.  you must have some answer. Is there a rocket?

are you familiar with string theory?   how do you explain the beginning of the universe, whats your belief on that subject matter?

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bullhorn

  • Flat Earth Scientist
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Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2006, 09:52:49 PM »
You seem to be a very intelligent man, with you background in physics you can understand that it is possible that the Earth is flat.  As for the man flying around the Earth, he is being deceived as to his flight plan, at his altitude he is relying heavily on “GPS” and computers to guide him on his journey, the computers are guiding him on a path that steers away from the edge.  Also you had a hard time understanding the forces at work to keep the Earth in a constant motion upwards, no one knows how it is propelled but if you would like I can formulate reason and a theory as to why this is happening.  It is all-theoretical of course.  And why we believe the earth is flat? That can be summed up by saying that there are some of us who look at the world more critically and analyze everything to the smallest detail, and rely on what we can sense through our own reasoning without relying on others doctored material.

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Extacide

Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2006, 10:14:41 PM »
Doctored Material. Ohohohahaha you guys make me chuckle.

There is not the tiniest bit of proof that any statements claimed about the earth being flat are true, rather it is all based upon people coming up with the idea that the earth is flat. No evidence, nothing to support these random occurances of thought. Now, considering theres endless evidence of the earth being round, you continue to beleive it is flat, and simply put that everyone in the world is just hiding the truth.

So please tell me, all of the pictures, all of the people who have witnessed it, everything that points to the Earth being round, its either the government paying to keep hidden from the world, or theres some mysterious illusions that make us see otherwise, with absolutely no proof of it. You know, I watched this movie in my Earth Science class on all of this, the people who beleived in this. What got me was the idea of non space, where when you travel through the bottom of the earth, you go through non space and move to the other side instantly making people beleive that they traveled around.

Too funny.

I love the icewall too, it reminds me of the stories of iliad.

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Erasmus

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Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2006, 10:38:24 PM »
Quote from: "Physical Proof"
unknown motives.  thats not an answer, thats a way to avoid answering.  you all are afraid because you know you have no answers.  

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there is such thing as newtons gravitational constant. are you aware?


Whom are you addressing?

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NASA plots paths for their probes according to the gravitational force of other planets.


FE proponents claim that these events have not in fact occurred.

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anyone with two eyes can see that these planets are obviously there,


FE proponents do not claim that the planets are not there; just that we/our machines haven't been to them, and probably something about the accepted explanation of what they are is a lie.

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proving theories is a worthwhile goal of scientists.  millions of theories have been proven and disproven since the beginning of human intuition.  i could pick from any of them, im sure you are familiar with at least thousands.  they make conveniences in your life possible.  if no one ever tested theories, we would still be living in caves...


You're confusing testing with proving.  Do you know about the problem of induction and Popper's views on how science should be undertaken and what its goals should be?

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as I am a scientist, I ask questions.  When I ask a question, I want a quantative answer.  OK, there is a force of 1g acting upon the earth.  you must have some answer. Is there a rocket?


You are not in a position to demand answers to questions; accepted science leaves many explanatory holes, such as why the standard model particles have the particular charges that they do, why the fundamental forces have the strengths that they do, and by what mechanism it is that mass curves space.  FE theory is in a similar (on some level) position; it is not obliged to have at this moment a complete explanation of all observable phenomenon.  What you should instead be demanding is an explanation for those phenomenon that you believe falsify the theory.  A statement like, "Look, I've been to the south pole; there's no ice wall," is far more scientific than "I demand you explain the force that propels the Earth."  If you insist on making such demands, then I demand an explanation (with proof) of the accelerating rate of the universe's expansion, a complete explanation of action at a distance, a complete explanation of the origins of spoken language among humans, and while we're at it, I demand to know whether P = NP.

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are you familiar with string theory?   how do you explain the beginning of the universe, whats your belief on that subject matter?


My stance is that these are subjects for another thread.  But to satisfy as succinctly as possible, no, I have only a vague understanding of string theory.  Next: In light of the explanatory power, parsimony, and absence of falsifying data concerning the Big Bang theory, I tentatively accept it as an incomplete but useful theory of the origins of the universe.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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joffenz

  • The Elder Ones
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Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2006, 02:48:39 AM »
Physical Proof: I knwo what you are saying, but:

They claim NASA is all a hoax.
They claim there is a governemnt conspiracy which affects the GPS systems of planes to keep them away from the edge of the Earth.

Basically they will deny any proof with their wooly ideas.

The idea that the Earth is travelling upwards at 1g is fine, as a physicist you should know this :)

It's been discussed in another thread.

What makes the Earth spin? What is gravity? There are invisible forces acting the Earth just now, so simply because they don't know what makes the Earth accelerate upwards doesn't mean it's not true. It's not true because the Earth is flat, of course :p

Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2006, 03:19:23 AM »
The argument that we rely on GPS and compasses (if you've read about the UN model you'll know the flat earther's explaination of this) to guide us around the world and that we are being decieved by them is not a very good one. For instance many sea vessels use what are known as gyroscopes to navigate.

Gyroscopes are not affected by magnetic fields and have a strong tendency to point in the one direction despite the sometimes violent movements of the marine vessels they are on. As a physicist you should be able to appreciate that the explaination of how the gyroscope works makes perfect sense and is based on Newton's laws of motion. We cannot be misled by gyroscopes. The argument that gyroscopes could be altered by the all powerful government is also irrelevent. Hell, anyone could make their own functioning gyroscope with only the most rudimentary of materials and I'm sure some people have.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/gyroscope.htm
ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity

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Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
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Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2006, 07:54:39 AM »
Quote from: "cheesejoff"
The idea that the Earth is travelling upwards at 1g is fine


Well I wouldn't quite call it "fine", since it does in fact demand an ever-increasing force to propel the Earth.... I just don't think it violates any speed of light restrictions, or doesn't predict all the first-hand, common-man observable phenomena.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2006, 09:27:21 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Well I wouldn't quite call it "fine", since it does in fact demand an ever-increasing force to propel the Earth....

It demands an ever increasing velocity, but the force is fixed.

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Erasmus

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Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2006, 11:48:25 AM »
Quote from: "Javier_Vierja"
It demands an ever increasing velocity, but the force is fixed.


Look, I'm trying to help the FE'ers here.  But if they demand that you have an ever-increasing velocity provided by a constant force, then they're trying to have their cake and eat it too.

An ever-accelerating body increases in mass (as observed from any inertial reference frame), because mass comes both from intrinsic mass and kinetic energy.  This means that more force will be required to keep its acceleration constant: you have to push harder you make a heavier thing accelerate by a given amount (F=ma).  A fixed force will eventually be insufficient to provide 1g of acceleration.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Erasmus

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Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2006, 11:51:20 AM »
Quote from: "cheesejoff"
They claim NASA is all a hoax.
They claim there is a governemnt conspiracy which affects the GPS systems of planes to keep them away from the edge of the Earth.


I think it's really neat how the "round Earth conspiracy" would never have been possible without the very technology that allows us to go into space and look at the Earth to see how undeniably round it is.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2006, 12:14:41 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
An ever-accelerating body increases in mass (as observed from any inertial reference frame)

That's the error. You are not observing from any inertial reference frame, but from the object's frame. The force is constant, as the perceived acceleration on that frame.

(I thought we were agree about that from a post that I posted several days ago, the one that you commented that you had been discussing the same thing in other thread)

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Erasmus

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Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2006, 01:28:48 PM »
Quote from: "Javier_Vierja"
That's the error. You are not observing from any inertial reference frame, but from the object's frame. The force is constant, as the perceived acceleration on that frame.


Hm, yeah, you're right.  I recant!

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2006, 10:49:32 PM »
Quote from: "bullhorn"
You seem to be a very intelligent man, with you background in physics you can understand that it is possible that the Earth is flat.  As for the man flying around the Earth, he is being deceived as to his flight plan, at his altitude he is relying heavily on “GPS” and computers to guide him on his journey, the computers are guiding him on a path that steers away from the edge.  Also you had a hard time understanding the forces at work to keep the Earth in a constant motion upwards, no one knows how it is propelled but if you would like I can formulate reason and a theory as to why this is happening.  It is all-theoretical of course.  And why we believe the earth is flat? That can be summed up by saying that there are some of us who look at the world more critically and analyze everything to the smallest detail, and rely on what we can sense through our own reasoning without relying on others doctored material.

Where is the evidence of deception?

Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2006, 04:21:39 AM »
Erasmus imparted this ode of wisdom

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Well, I think that FE'ers cover their bases by claiming that all predictions of the FE theory are unverifiable due to force applied by an agent with unknown motives.


Yes...this is what I'm talking about. I think rather than squabbling over differences in physics interpretation, more time should be spent by both camps determining where the spherical earth deception originated and accurate origin of the perpetrators.

Physical proof proved his genuis thus

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Okay, I am a conspiracy theorist big time. But this??? its just plain retarded. I have a degree in Theoretical Physics.


Yeah? What I coincidence...so do I. I actually have two degrees, both in Theoretical physics. Let's get it on disco showdown style. Come on mate, no grandiose claims on the internet please. Next a roundie is going to head out with "I am actually the president of........". Have mercy on your dignity people.

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there is such thing as newtons gravitational constant


Hmmmm. Relying heavily on widely speculative variables such as mass of the earth and seemingly proven with other "planets" with basically unproven  composition . Ball park physics at best. I'd rather see this attraction between mass proven in the lab between much smaller objects. Surely no one here is arrogant enough to take current theories of gravity as gospel. What about the string theorists throwing your weight around here. Care to elaborate on your learnings of the origins of gravity? Get ready for a good chuckle!

 cheesjoff blabbered

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Basically they will deny any proof with their wooly ideas.


Pray tell what on this flat earth is wooly? This had better not be more Yankistan spelling, the original butchers of the english language.

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I think it's really neat how the "round Earth conspiracy" would never have been possible without the very technology that allows us to go into space and look at the Earth to see how undeniably round it is.


Please elaborate.

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joffenz

  • The Elder Ones
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Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2006, 04:59:36 AM »
Zoobtron: Considering you also said "Grandiose" I hardly find it justified for you to insult my spelling. Everyone makes mistakes. Please stick to actual arguments rather than quips about people who are not able to type flawlessly.

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Erasmus

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Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2006, 11:34:33 AM »
Quote from: "cheesejoff"
Zoobtron: Considering you also said "Grandiose" I hardly find it justified for you to insult my spelling.


How do you think it's spelled?

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
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Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2006, 12:06:40 PM »
Quote from: "ZOOBTRON"
I think rather than squabbling over differences in physics interpretation, more time should be spent by both camps determining where the spherical earth deception originated and accurate origin of the perpetrators.


Where what originated?  The alleged deception, or the allegation itself?

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I actually have two degrees, both in Theoretical physics.


Buy yourself a medal.

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Relying heavily on widely speculative variables such as mass of the earth and seemingly proven with other "planets" with basically unproven  composition . ... I'd rather see this attraction between mass proven in the lab between much smaller objects.


See http://www.fourmilab.ch/gravitation/foobar/ for just such evidence.  I'm sure I didn't need to post this link (already posted elsewhere on this site, and not by me), seeing as you have so many more degrees in Theoretical Physics than I do: I talked to some physics undergrads and they all have done the experiment (and understand the implications) themselves.  I suppose they could all have been brainwashed by their profs, of course.

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Surely no one here is arrogant enough to take current theories of gravity as gospel.


I find this exclamation difficult to take seriously...

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Quote from: "Erasmus"
I think it's really neat how the "round Earth conspiracy" would never have been possible without the very technology that allows us to go into space and look at the Earth to see how undeniably round it is.


Please elaborate.


I refer to the contents of the alleged deception.  Centuries ago, when there were no satellites or flight, there was nothing FE'ers of the day could point to and say, "Omg!  A hoax!  Deception!  Lies!"  People who travelled at sea believed the Earth to be spherical because; people who measured the orbits of the planets and sun believed the universe to be heliocentric; people who spent their lives on farms probably didn't give it much thought.  I think the FE movement needs the space program, GPS, and transoceanic and circumpolar flight, in order to have something concrete to accuse of being a lie.  FE is one of those theories all whose momentum relies on a misunderstanding and consequent condemnation of another theory, usually a well-accepted one (this is one realize I believe many of the seemingly-to-me educated FE'ers are either the ones who are actively involved in deception); without something to feed off of, I suggest FE proponents would lose interest in the whole idea.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2006, 02:05:25 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "cheesejoff"
Zoobtron: Considering you also said "Grandiose" I hardly find it justified for you to insult my spelling.


How do you think it's spelled?

-Adam

Yeah, I also pulled a double-take there.

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joffenz

  • The Elder Ones
  • 1272
Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2006, 06:15:33 AM »
Alright, I misread his spelling. What I meant to comment on was:

Quote from: "ZOOBTRON"
What about the string theorists throwing your weight around here.


I believe the correct tense is "Their" rather than "Your".

Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2006, 05:22:22 PM »
This isn't a fucking spelling test you nerds it's "Mathematics anyone".  Spelling is not the issue though I have forgotten waht the issue actually is.

Anyway lets get on with the mathematics and not the FUCKING spelling.  

Answers on a postcard
ts obvious isn't it.  No one can prove a damn thing.  Especially in this of all possible worlds. LOL

Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2006, 05:32:58 PM »
I just read the first few posts again and spelling is definetely back on the agenda ( and i'm not talking typos or grammar here so neee ).  

Mathematics is merely a sophistcated theoretical tool which has historically proven useful for ordering the world into something that is understandable.  Of course a lot of purely theoretical mathematics is just a head up the theoretical; arse of science and doesn't achieve anything, but merely cheats.

Mathematics is the "spanner" of science and the bastard child of phylosophy and hence all mathematicians are in fact spannermaticians.  If you disagree, use maths to prove something useful (and I mean prove in the empirical absolute ).

You can't and that makes you not only spannermaticians, but spannermaticians whom are working with a broken spanner!

Answers on a postcard
ts obvious isn't it.  No one can prove a damn thing.  Especially in this of all possible worlds. LOL

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Erasmus

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Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2006, 05:48:34 PM »
Quote from: "mikolaj_koppernigk=cojon"
Mathematics is merely a sophistcated theoretical tool which has historically proven useful for ordering the world into something that is understandable.  Of course a lot of purely theoretical mathematics is just a head up the theoretical; arse of science and doesn't achieve anything, but merely cheats.

Mathematics is the "spanner" of science and the bastard child of phylosophy and hence all mathematicians are in fact spannermaticians.  If you disagree, use maths to prove something useful (and I mean prove in the empirical absolute ).


Huh?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2006, 05:58:44 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "mikolaj_koppernigk=cojon"
Mathematics is merely a sophistcated theoretical tool which has historically proven useful for ordering the world into something that is understandable.  Of course a lot of purely theoretical mathematics is just a head up the theoretical; arse of science and doesn't achieve anything, but merely cheats.

Mathematics is the "spanner" of science and the bastard child of phylosophy and hence all mathematicians are in fact spannermaticians.  If you disagree, use maths to prove something useful (and I mean prove in the empirical absolute ).


Huh?
You had trouble with that.  Jeez! I can dum it down a bit if you want.

Answers on a postcard
ts obvious isn't it.  No one can prove a damn thing.  Especially in this of all possible worlds. LOL

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Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
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Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2006, 08:57:51 PM »
Quote from: "mikolaj_koppernigk=cojon"
You had trouble with that.  Jeez! I can dum it down a bit if you want.


Yeah, could you?

I'm struggling to get over your display of disrespect for pure math, which leads me to believe you are mostly ignorant on the subject (if you thought it was a waste of time, why did you study it?)

I'm also trying to come up with an interesting definition of "spanner" that makes your second paragraph coherent.  Is science a vector space now?  And what does "proof in the empircal absolute" mean?  It sounds like something that'll turn out to be contradictory or unrealizable.

So yeah, I'm having a bit of trouble with it.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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joffenz

  • The Elder Ones
  • 1272
Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2006, 04:33:34 AM »
It would be easier to understand your first paragraph if you gave some example of these "cheats" which there are lots of.

Secondly:

£10 - £9 = £1.

There you go. I've worked out how much change I'll get if I buy something worth £9 with a £10 note.

Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2006, 03:46:58 AM »
Quote
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I actually have two degrees, both in theoretical physics


Buy yourself a medal


It has been said that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, yet it appears it is not a low enough form to be grasped by even the most respected advocates of the round earth theory. I am not a tertiary educated at all, yet there are many here who claim they are and still make grave errors in expression and construction of arguments, discrediting what ever knowledge they have. Then again I'm sure completing a degree involves alot of cutting and pasting prior works with little actual thought.

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See http://www.fourmilab.ch/gravitation/foobar/ for just such evidence. I'm sure I didn't need to post this link (already posted elsewhere on this site, and not by me), seeing as you have so many more degrees in Theoretical Physics than I do: I talked to some physics undergrads and they all have done the experiment (and understand the implications) themselves. I suppose they could all have been brainwashed by their profs, of course.  


Yeah, I spoke to the same undergrads afterwards and they complained of headaches after the professor introduced them to the brain wipe. Honestly, can we have some arguments with some kind of quantifiable evidence. I don't care if they did any experiment as they are obviously fabricated to confirm your link (that doesn't work I might add).

Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2006, 09:50:40 AM »
The link worked just fine for me right now, and it is not about the professor nor the students.

It details an experiment that you can run yourself, in your own basement or garage, or whereever you feel is secure.  The results of your own experiment will prove to you that universal gravitation exists.

Because let's face it:  The rest of us can do a thousand experiments and you would not believe a single one of them.  But if you perform the experiment under your own diligent watch, you will not be able to say that others tampered the results.

Try the experiment, kids.  It's fun-tastic!  It's cheap enough: 6-lb fishing line, telephone wire (or thin steel wire), a block of styrofoam, flat piece of something as a flap, small can of water as damper, two sets of weights, and something to hang onto like a ladder or a ceiling beam.

Mathematics, anyone?
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2006, 08:53:16 AM »
Quote from: "ZOOBTRON"
Quote
Quote
I actually have two degrees, both in theoretical physics


Buy yourself a medal


It has been said that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, yet it appears it is not a low enough form to be grasped by even the most respected advocates of the round earth theory. I am not a tertiary educated at all, yet there are many here who claim they are and still make grave errors in expression and construction of arguments, discrediting what ever knowledge they have. Then again I'm sure completing a degree involves alot of cutting and pasting prior works with little actual thought.

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See http://www.fourmilab.ch/gravitation/foobar/ for just such evidence. I'm sure I didn't need to post this link (already posted elsewhere on this site, and not by me), seeing as you have so many more degrees in Theoretical Physics than I do: I talked to some physics undergrads and they all have done the experiment (and understand the implications) themselves. I suppose they could all have been brainwashed by their profs, of course.  


Yeah, I spoke to the same undergrads afterwards and they complained of headaches after the professor introduced them to the brain wipe. Honestly, can we have some arguments with some kind of quantifiable evidence. I don't care if they did any experiment as they are obviously fabricated to confirm your link (that doesn't work I might add).

The methods used in that experiment are pretty clearly stated.  The equipment is not very sophisticated (i.e. a ladder, some string and metal weights).  If you think they are lying, go into your basement and try it yourself.  Use your own eyes and verify the results.  You're not at a university, there's no one around to administer this "brain wipe."

Also, please explain how such a brain wipe would be administered.
nd that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped.