The Flat Earth FAQ Thread

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joffenz

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« on: February 08, 2006, 02:19:42 PM »
Alright, quite a lot of threads are questions from people wanting to find out more about the flat earth theory. Quite often they're repeated or unanswered, so I thought I'd make a sort of "FAQ" thread.

Basically ask questions about the theory and any Flat-Earthers should answer (or round-earthers, since this is not a debate thread). Do not debate the answers given here, if you want to do that then start another thread.

When someone answers a question I'll edit it onto this post so people don't have to search the whole thread.

Terminology:

FE (theory/model): Flat Earth (theory/model), a theory which states that the Earth is flat.
FE'er: Flat Earther, someone who believes in the FE theory.

RE (theory/model): Round Earth (theory/model), a theory which states that the Earth is round.
RE'er: Round Earther, someone who believe the RE theory.

Q: "Is this site for real?"

A: This site is real. There are people who seriously believe the Earth is flat. However, there are also people on this site who do not.


Government


Q: "Why do the all the world Governments say the Earth is round?"

A: It's a conspiracy.

Q: "What about NASA? Don't they have photos to prove that the Earth is round?"

A: NASA are part of the conspiracy too. The photos are faked.

Q: "Why has no-one taken a photo of the Earth that proves it is flat?"

A: The government prevents people from getting close enough to the Ice Wall to take a picture."

Q: "How did NASA create these images with the computer technology available at the time?"

A: Since NASA did not send rockets into space, they instead spent the money on developing advanced computers and imaging software instead

Q: "What is the motive behind this conspiracy?"

A: The motive is unknown.

Q: "How are the world governments organised enough to carry out this conspiracy?"

A: They only appear to be disorganised to make the conspiracy seem implausible.


The Earth in space


Q: "What is the circumference and diameter of the Earth?"

A: "Circumference: 78225 miles, Diameter: 24,900 miles

Q: "What about the stars, sun and moon and other planets? Are they flat too? What are they made of?"

A: The sun and moon, each 32 miles in diameter, circle Earth at a height of 3000 miles at its equator, located midway between the North Pole and the ice wall. Each functions as a "spotlight," with the sun radiating "hot light," the moon "cold light." As they are spotlights, they only give light out over a certain are which explains why some parts of the Earth are dark when others are light. Their apparent rising and setting are caused by optical illusions.

In the "accelerating upwards" model, the stars, sun and moon are also accelerating upwards.

The stars are about as far as San Francisco is from Boston. (3100 miles)

Q: "Why are other celestial bodies round but not the Earth?"

A: When you look at these celestial bodies, even with a telescope, they're entirely two-dimensional.

Q: "What about satellites? How do they orbit the Earth?"

A1: They don't, satellite signals come from radio towers.

Q: "What's underneath the Earth?"

A: This is unknown. Some believe it to be just rocks, others believe the Earth rests on the back of four elephants and a turtle.

Q: "What about gravity?"

A1: The Earth is accelerating upwards at 1g (9.8m/s-2) along with every star, sun and moon in the universe. This produces the same effect as gravity.

The force causing everything to accelerate is Dark Energy.

A2: Gravity comes from an external source (to be discussed)

Q: "Isn't this version of gravity (A1) flawed? Wouldn't planes/helicopters/paragliders crash into the Earth as the Earth rises up to them?"

A: No. If that were to happen, then no planes could fly right now as gravity would pull them into the Earth. The reason that planes do not crash is that their wings produce an upthrust which, when the rate of acceleration upwards equals that of gravity's pull downwards, and so their altititude does not change.

The same thing happens if the Earth is moving up. The plane is accelerating upwards at the same rate as the Earth, which means the distance between them does not change. Therefore, the plane stays at the same height and does not crash.

Q: "Doesn't this mean we'd be travelling faster than the speed of light, which is impossible?"

A: From any relative frame of reference in the universe, the Earth is travelling below the speed of light.

The theory of relativitity states that no observer in an inertial reference frame will ever measure the speed of a massive body to be greater than or equal to that of light."

Q: "If the world was really flat, what would happen if you jump off the disc's edge?"

A: You would enter an inertial reference frame, moving at a constant velocity in the direction the Earth was moving before you jumped. The Earth would continue accelerating upwards past you at a rate of 1g, so it would appear to you that you were falling into space.

Q: "If the Earth was indeed a flat disc, wouldn't the whole planet crunch up into itself and eventually transform into a ball?"

A1: If the Earth generated a gravitational field, yes, it would eventually happen, after a billion years maybe. FE assumes that the Earth does not generate a gravitational field. Also, I'm not sure what FE's stance on the age of the world is, but it's plausible that it's a younger estimation than the RE claim.

A2: There is a counter-mass which pulls the Earth back into a disc shape.

Q: "Why does gravity vary with altitiude?"

A: The moon and stars have a slight gravitational pull.

Geography


Q: Exactly what shape is the Earth if it's flat? Square or circle?

A: Circle, like in the UN logo

Q: "Why doesn't water run off the Earth?"

A: There is a vast ice wall that keeps the water where it is. The ice wall is roughly 150ft high. This also explains why you can find a vast plane of ice when you travel south.

Antarctica as a continent does not exist.

Q: "How does global warming affect the ice wall?"

A1: Global warming is melting the ice wall, but the government isn't doing anything because cutting carbon emissions would damage the economy, and they only care about making money.

A2: Global Warming doesn't happen. It and it's counter-theory (Global Cooling) are effects that cancel each other out. Remember, these "greenhouse gasse" can reflect heat back out into space as well as keep it on Earth. Yes, there are recorded rises in temperature, but the only records we have go back, at most, around 150 years. This is very likely an occurence that happens every [x>150] years, that's happened before (perhaps many times), and that the Earth has thus survived before.

Q: "What about tides?"

A: The tides exist due to a slight see-saw effect on the earth. As it goes back and forth, the water rushes to the side that is lower. Note, this is a very slight wobble. Remember, these wobbles are created by very minor earthquakes. They keep the tides in check. Notice that large earthquakes result in large tides or "tsunami".

Q : "Why is the North pole colder than the equator?"

A: The sun orbits over the equator, not the North pole

Q: "How do volcanic eruptions happen?"

A: The Earth is thick enough to have a core of molten lava. Once there's too much of it in too confined a space, it finds it's way out, just like the water will come out of a full bottle if you squeeze it too hard

Q: "What about time zones?"

A: The sun is a spotlight which shines light on a concentrated area, so not everywhere on Earth will be lit at once. Times zones exist so that everyone's clock will be at 12:00 around the time the sun is approximately directly overhead.

Q: "What about Lunar Eclipses"

(Possible A) The moon isn't a spotlight; it glows with light from the sun, reflected off the Earth. Different parts of the Earth are more reflective than others (the seas, the polar cap, the ice wall, for example). Sometimes, the position of the sun (which is a spotlight) means that only very low-reflective or non-reflective parts of the Earth's surface are illuminated, so the moon is abnormally dark. This could potentially explain lunar phases as well.

Q: "How come the travel time by air from South America to New Zealand, via the polar route, is SHORTER than the travel time going North first and then South again?"

A: (Presumed answer: The airline pilots are misled by their GPS, or are deliberately conspiring to make it appear that the flights take different times)

Q: "When traveling in a straight direction, you will always reach the same point on the globe from where you started. How can this happen if the world is flat?"

A: You need to have evidence for this to be true. Also, define "straight." Remember, the northern point on the compass is, under most circumstances (unless near the centre or deep in the ice wall), pointing toward the centre of the Earth. Therefore, if you follow your compass due east or due west, ending up at the same point you started from, you've just gone around the world in a circle.

Religion

Q: "Are most or all FE's Biblical literalists, who feel like their religious belief system would be threatened by a round (i.e. spherical) earth, or are there any atheists/agnostics who are FE's as well?"

A: Not all FE's are biblical literalists. This poll has more details: Poll

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dgw

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2006, 09:27:52 PM »
I want to know stuff about the stars, the sun and moon. How far away are they? Where the planets fit in the FET (Flat Earth Theory). Are the stars painted on a background just behind the moon or what? What is beyond that?

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joffenz

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2006, 01:04:06 AM »
In the FET article it says:

(2) The sun and moon, each 32 miles in diameter, circle Earth at a height of 3000 miles at its equator, located midway between the North Pole and the ice wall. Each functions as a "spotlight," with the sun radiating "hot light," the moon "cold light." Their apparent rising and setting are caused by optical illusions.

No mention of the stars I'm afraid.

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bullhorn

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2006, 01:24:38 AM »
Well, all facts are open to debate if they are stated wrong.

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joffenz

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2006, 01:40:16 AM »
Well please post the correct information then.

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Erasmus

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2006, 02:22:23 AM »
The only issue I take with the "no-debate" stance is that we want the FAQ to be authoritative, I expect, so debate along the lines of "that's not what flatEarthers believe" or "that's not what Newtonian mechanics states" or whatever should be allowed, no?

Also I suggest the FAQ be of the form:

1)  FE evidence for a FE, RE objections, and FE respones.
2)  FE counterevidence for a RE, RE objections, and FE responses.
3)  1 and 2 with FE and RE swapping roles.

Right?

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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joffenz

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2006, 04:01:12 AM »
Yes it should be authoratitive so debating what the FE's exactly believe is fine.

But it's meant to just be answers to Q's about FE, not where FE's asks RE's questions and vice versa. Eg, if the question was "Why hasn't anyoned fallen off the Earth?" and the response was "There's an ice wall" then that would be fine.

But then asking "How come no one has seen it?" is more of a debate. That's attempting to point out the flaws in the theory, rather than what the theory actually is. Although if they give an answer like "It's a government conspiracy" then that should be acceptable as it's stating a fact (well, they believe it's fact)

The idea behind this thread is so that someone can go in and get the basic ideas of FE theory, so that they can then agree or argue against them in another thread.

Perhaps there should be an RE FAQ thread too?

The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2006, 06:27:20 AM »
Quote from: "cheesejoff"
Well please post the correct information then.


The earth is spherical, hence why people call it the "Globe"
ikolaj_koppernigk=cojon=tit

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Erasmus

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2006, 09:48:18 AM »
Quote from: "Spook"
Quote from: "cheesejoff"
Well please post the correct information then.


The earth is spherical, hence why people call it the "Globe"


Not approrpiate discussion for this thread.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Erasmus

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2006, 09:52:55 AM »
Quote from: "cheesejoff"
Yes it should be authoratitive so debating what the FE's exactly believe is fine.

But it's meant to just be answers to Q's about FE, not where FE's asks RE's questions and vice versa. Eg, if the question was "Why hasn't anyoned fallen off the Earth?" and the response was "There's an ice wall" then that would be fine.

But then asking "How come no one has seen it?" is more of a debate. That's attempting to point out the flaws in the theory, rather than what the theory actually is. Although if they give an answer like "It's a government conspiracy" then that should be acceptable as it's stating a fact (well, they believe it's fact)

The idea behind this thread is so that someone can go in and get the basic ideas of FE theory, so that they can then agree or argue against them in another thread.

Perhaps there should be an RE FAQ thread too?


Okay, I see.  I still think that in that case the form should be Question - Answer - Rebuttal; otherwise round Earthers will keep raising the same tired objections to the flat Earth theory.

As for an RE FAQ thread -- somewhere there's a "This is the Flat Earth Society believes about the world" article, and in it presumably is a "These are what the Flat Early Society believes to be flaws in the RE theory" section.  I think that's sufficient; probably we don't need a whole FAQ for it here.  However, the FE FAQ should probably point to such an article -- "Q: What are the FE objections to the RE theory?  A: See blahblahblah."

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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joffenz

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2006, 02:49:30 AM »
Ok we'll use your format then since you seem to be a wise master of knowlege :)

Any questions for the FE's?

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6strings

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2006, 06:02:48 PM »
Just so that this FAQ can avoid being a total waste of time, I move that no Flat Earth answers be permitted to contain "I don't know" or any variation of that response.

Flat earthers, if you can't explain something with your model of the earth, it's flawed, so you must come up with a theory explaining any phenomena the round earthers come up with.

That said, my question is this:
What force is acting upon the earth such that it is constantly accelerating at 9.8 m/s^2?

Also, why does gravity vary with altitude?

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joffenz

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2006, 02:23:36 AM »
I've added links to the discussion on each point, starting with gravity.

Quote from: "6strings"
Flat earthers, if you can't explain something with your model of the earth, it's flawed, so you must come up with a theory explaining any phenomena the round earthers come up with.

That said, my question is this:
What force is acting upon the earth such that it is constantly accelerating at 9.8 m/s^2?


If the big bang made the universe, then how do you explain the fact that planets seems to be slowing down and will eventuall go the other way?

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6strings

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2006, 09:06:36 AM »
Because space isn't a vacuum, so there's friction.  Plus there's the theory that there's a giant black hole at the middle of the universe.  Although I thought we were discussing flat earth theory.

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GunStar

The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2006, 09:08:34 AM »
To answer the question of gravity at altitude.  First, the earth generates no gravity.  The reason you hit the ground again is the earth catches up to you.  Now, the moon and stars have gravity.  As you get closer to them, they exert a pull upon you.  Very slight, but more the closer you get.

The tides exist due to a slight see-saw effect on the earth.  As it goes back and forth, the water rushes to the side that is lower.  Note, this is a very slight wobble.  Remember, these wobbles are created by very minor earthquakes.  They keep the tides in check.  Notice that large earthquakes result in large tides or "tsunami".

As for the issue with the Big Bang.  We can't tell the planet is slowing down.  IF it is, there is less force acting on people.  This may explain why  people are generally getting taller.  The further the Earth slows, the taller people will get.  Eventually, I think they would just stop in place.  And anyway, the other stars gravity will cause those little balls to eventually crash into the planet.  Craters about the size of a house are to be expected.

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Erasmus

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2006, 12:09:48 PM »
Quote from: "GunStar"
To answer the question of gravity at altitude.  First, the earth generates no gravity.  The reason you hit the ground again is the earth catches up to you.  Now, the moon and stars have gravity.  As you get closer to them, they exert a pull upon you.  Very slight, but more the closer you get.

The tides exist due to a slight see-saw effect on the earth.  As it goes back and forth, the water rushes to the side that is lower.  Note, this is a very slight wobble.  Remember, these wobbles are created by very minor earthquakes.  They keep the tides in check.  Notice that large earthquakes result in large tides or "tsunami".

As for the issue with the Big Bang.  We can't tell the planet is slowing down.  IF it is, there is less force acting on people.  This may explain why  people are generally getting taller.  The further the Earth slows, the taller people will get.  Eventually, I think they would just stop in place.  And anyway, the other stars gravity will cause those little balls to eventually crash into the planet.  Craters about the size of a house are to be expected.


Can one of our resident FE'ers verify any of this charlatanry?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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McB

Re: The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2006, 02:11:11 PM »
Quote from: "cheesejoff"


Q: "What force is acting on the Earth to make it accelerate?"

A: "

Q: "Why does gravity vary with altitiude?"

A: "

Q: "What about tides?"

A: "

Q : "Why is the North pole colder then the equator?"

A: "


I would like to add one more:

Q: "How come the travel time by air from South America to New Zealand, via the polar route, is way SHORTER than the travel time going North first and then South again?" Yes, there ARE regular flights direct from Buenos Aires to Auckland. Aerolineas Argentinas does this with an Airbus A340 in about 13 hours and  40 minutes. This is LESS than the travel time from Buenos Aires to New York (same plane, 14 and a half  hours). How do you reconcile that with your map?

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6strings

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2006, 05:50:00 PM »
Quote
To answer the question of gravity at altitude. First, the earth generates no gravity. The reason you hit the ground again is the earth catches up to you. Now, the moon and stars have gravity. As you get closer to them, they exert a pull upon you. Very slight, but more the closer you get.

Why do you assume that the earrth generates no gravity?  If we're using the traditional definition of gravity, then how thin would you estimate the earth to be so that it generates no noticeable gravitational pull?

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Erasmus

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2006, 09:56:24 PM »
Quote from: "6strings"
Why do you assume that the earrth generates no gravity?  If we're using the traditional definition of gravity, then how thin would you estimate the earth to be so that it generates no noticeable gravitational pull?


At least as thin as GunStar's reasoning, I expect.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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joffenz

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2006, 09:52:22 AM »
Do you mean no gravity or very little?

Because if it is none then you need a scientific explanation as to why the Earth does not generate gravity.

Very little...well, that would mean the Earth is quite thin then, which would contradict the previous answer of "Quite thick".

So could any FE'ers verify this?

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Lildrummerboy

The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2006, 05:47:33 AM »
Quote
To answer the question of gravity at altitude. First, the earth generates no gravity. The reason you hit the ground again is the earth catches up to you. Now, the moon and stars have gravity. As you get closer to them, they exert a pull upon you. Very slight, but more the closer you get


Now then, are we throwing out all of classical physics?  If the Earth is travelling upwards at 9.81 m/s, then everything on it will ALSO be travelling upwards at the same velocity.  Yes/No?

Now imagine you jump up at a velocity of 5 m/s RELATIVE TO THE EARTH.  You now have a velocity of 14.81 m/s.  Thus, you will actually move AWAY from the Earth, as you are travelling faster than it.

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joffenz

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2006, 08:29:45 AM »
But the Earth will increase it's velocity to 9.8 so your effective velocity is 5 m/s and therefore the distance between you and the Earth is no different from a round Earth.

But you shouldn't be discussing that here, this is for info only, not debate.

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MeditativeMaster

The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2006, 07:16:47 PM »
a minor thought; if the earth is ACCELERATING AT 1G, the earth cant be more than around a year old. the speed of light?

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Erasmus

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2006, 09:00:39 PM »
Quote from: "MeditativeMaster"
a minor thought; if the earth is ACCELERATING AT 1G, the earth cant be more than around a year old. the speed of light?


You're right, that needs to be in the FAQ too.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2006, 12:13:57 AM »
You ppl have absolutlly no Idea of what ur talking about!!!

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Erasmus

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2006, 12:42:05 AM »
Quote from: "YALLGOTTABKIDME"
You ppl have absolutlly no Idea of what ur talking about!!!


I want to start believing in FE, just so these people don't get to be on my team anymore.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2006, 01:18:04 AM »
WTF does that have anything to do with the fact that u believe that the earth is flat!! you ppl are fundamentally flawed in the way you think about the earth and science in general! Also the earth is not accelerating at 1G, as a G is a measurement of force acting in a given direction. Which would mean that the earth its self is exerting a force, ergo nullifying ur arguement entirely

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Erasmus

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2006, 08:18:01 AM »
Quote from: "YALLGOTTABKIDME"
WTF does that have anything to do with the fact that u believe that the earth is flat!! you ppl are fundamentally flawed in the way you think about the earth and science in general! Also the earth is not accelerating at 1G, as a G is a measurement of force acting in a given direction. Which would mean that the earth its self is exerting a force, ergo nullifying ur arguement entirely


If you are seriously interested in a discussion on this topic, may I suggest you acquire the necessary background by searching for the fifty or so extant posts that discuss it at length; the search function will answer admirably for this purpose.  If you are still confused, come back and we'll talk.

Otherwise, don't bring this up again.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2006, 08:37:25 AM »
What makes the sun shine?

What is the sun made of?

What are the stars made of?

Please explain the red-shift seen when analyzing starlight vs. sunlight.
nd that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped.

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Erasmus

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The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2006, 11:50:20 AM »
Quote from: "Pesto"
What makes the sun shine?

What is the sun made of?

What are the stars made of?

Please explain the red-shift seen when analyzing starlight vs. sunlight.


I'm not sure that these questions are addressed by the accepted FE model... no?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?