Pascal's Wager

Christianity and agnosticism are the only choices if you are a Christian deciding whether or not God exists.

Quote from: Althalus on May 27, 2008, 02:27:54 AM

Quote from: Wiccan_Child on May 27, 2008, 02:10:05 AM

Quote from: The Philosopher on March 06, 2007, 08:56:23 PM

•     * You believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your loss (the investment in your mistaken belief) is finite and therefore negligible.
      * You do not believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your gain is finite and therefore negligible.

From a purely logical standpoint, shouldn't everyone believe in God?

No, because this logic is flawed. It most glaringly makes the flase dichotomy of "Either Strong Atheism is true, or Christianity is true (Heaven, Hell, etc)". This is clearly not the case, as there are a vast number of afterlife scenarios, both within and without Christianity (Buddhism, Hinduism, even my own Wicca).

Pascals Wager gets thrown around a lot by dumb asses. Pascal wrote it for people actively trying to decide if they should continue being Christian, between Christianity and agnosticism only. It makes sense with this reference.

It still makes no sense, regardless of the context. If you were to assume Christianity to be the only alternative, then it would...but that assumption clearly can't be made. I didn't read the whole thread, but has anyone made the point that belief can't be forced or faked?

That's always been the strongest argument against Pascal's Wager, to me.  It assumes that we have some kind of rational control over what we believe and that's just nonsensical.

Dunno if I posted in this thread already but basically the wager is flawed because God would not let you into heaven if the only reason you believe in him is because of Pascal's wager.

 /thread

This is probably the weakest justification for religious belief. It might be more applicable if there were only one religion, only two choices: theism, or atheism. Then one might be a theist simply as a sort of insurance policy. But there are thousands of religions. If you choose to believe in the Christian God "just in case", what happens if Allah turns out to be the true god, or any of the pagan or Hindu or Zoroastrian gods? And even provided you chose the correct deity, an unlikely circumstance in any case, mightn't that deity be angered by the fact that you only chose his/her/its religion out of convenience?

That doesn't change the wager. There are no religions that I know of that punish you more for having a different belief.... They usually just punish for lack of belief.

I didn't read the whole thread, but has anyone made the point that belief can't be forced or faked?

To answer your question Beno, I do believe that point has been made somewhere in this thread.  Or if not this one, one of the other threads about the exact same wager. 

Christianity and agnosticism are the only choices if you are a Christian deciding whether or not God exists.

Athalus, I agree with you in that it is the context in which Pascal considered the wager.  When considered from another point of view it lacks meaning. 

Quote from: Benocrates on May 27, 2008, 03:44:53 AM

I didn't read the whole thread, but has anyone made the point that belief can't be forced or faked?

To answer your question Beno, I do believe that point has been made somewhere in this thread.  Or if not this one, one of the other threads about the exact same wager. 

Quote from: Althalus on May 27, 2008, 05:11:25 AM

Christianity and agnosticism are the only choices if you are a Christian deciding whether or not God exists.

Athalus, I agree with you in that it is the context in which Pascal considered the wager.  When considered from another point of view it lacks meaning. 

How so? The possible outcomes are the same, when choosing between Christianity and being an atheist. If you bring in other religions then yes, it doesn't work, but that isn't the wager and is a fallacious argument at best.

Pascal's wager assume that reason has no say in whether or not God exists.  It is only valid in that case, ignoring all the other minor arguments.  That is the context. 

Pascal's wager assume that reason has no say in whether or not God exists.  It is only valid in that case, ignoring all the other minor arguments.  That is the context. 

And that the choice is between christianity and atheism. The argument itself states those two as the choices.

In which case the point is the same, the game theory and math just slightly harder. ;-)

uh...Pascals wager is bollocks.

/thread

Now that that's taken care of, let's derail this shit!

uh...Pascals wager is bollocks.

/thread

Now that that's taken care of, let's derail this shit!

Gayer won't be happy you derailed it first.

Quote from: Benocrates on May 28, 2008, 01:34:17 PM

uh...Pascals wager is bollocks.

/thread

Now that that's taken care of, let's derail this shit!

Gayer won't be happy you derailed it first.

Wasn't me...could be anything. Looks tropical, so probably bad engineering or design...the third world has shitty safety standards.

Quote from: Guessed on May 28, 2008, 01:39:35 PM

Quote from: Benocrates on May 28, 2008, 01:34:17 PM

uh...Pascals wager is bollocks.

/thread

Now that that's taken care of, let's derail this shit!

Gayer won't be happy you derailed it first.

Wasn't me...could be anything. Looks tropical, so probably bad engineering or design...the third world has shitty safety standards.

Third rate safety standards, amirite?

Quote from: Benocrates on May 28, 2008, 01:34:17 PM

uh...Pascals wager is bollocks.

/thread

Now that that's taken care of, let's derail this shit!

Gayer won't be happy you derailed it first.

You're right there


No derailing without me damnit!

That looks like the 4:35 to Manchester Piccadilly.

Right on time

uh...Pascals wager is bollocks.

/thread

Now that that's taken care of, let's derail this shit!

Great argument 

Quote

•     * You believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your loss (the investment in your mistaken belief) is finite and therefore negligible.
      * You do not believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your gain is finite and therefore negligible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

From a purely logical standpoint, shouldn't everyone believe in God?

I believe in God, but by no means from that logic. I don't have time in my life to believe in everything that that logic would require.
ie. believe in the poisonous ooze living in the sun that will eat your soul if you don't believe in him, but grants eternal booty to those that do...

Quote from: The Philosopher on March 06, 2007, 08:56:23 PM

Quote

•     * You believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your loss (the investment in your mistaken belief) is finite and therefore negligible.
      * You do not believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your gain is finite and therefore negligible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

From a purely logical standpoint, shouldn't everyone believe in God?

I believe in God, but by no means from that logic. I don't have time in my life to believe in everything that that logic would require.
ie. believe in the poisonous ooze living in the sun that will eat your soul if you don't believe in him, but grants eternal booty to those that do...

Nobody asked you...

Quote from: narcberry on May 28, 2008, 07:54:33 PM

Quote from: The Philosopher on March 06, 2007, 08:56:23 PM

Quote

•     * You believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your loss (the investment in your mistaken belief) is finite and therefore negligible.
      * You do not believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your gain is finite and therefore negligible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

From a purely logical standpoint, shouldn't everyone believe in God?

I believe in God, but by no means from that logic. I don't have time in my life to believe in everything that that logic would require.
ie. believe in the poisonous ooze living in the sun that will eat your soul if you don't believe in him, but grants eternal booty to those that do...

Nobody asked you...

Be nice, Beno, you used to enjoy debates.

Quote from: Benocrates on May 29, 2008, 04:53:35 AM

Quote from: narcberry on May 28, 2008, 07:54:33 PM

Quote from: The Philosopher on March 06, 2007, 08:56:23 PM

Quote

•     * You believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your loss (the investment in your mistaken belief) is finite and therefore negligible.
      * You do not believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your gain is finite and therefore negligible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

From a purely logical standpoint, shouldn't everyone believe in God?

I believe in God, but by no means from that logic. I don't have time in my life to believe in everything that that logic would require.
ie. believe in the poisonous ooze living in the sun that will eat your soul if you don't believe in him, but grants eternal booty to those that do...

Nobody asked you...

Be nice, Beno, you used to enjoy debates.

I'll debate anyone legitimate, I disdain trolls. Narc is a particularly annoying xtian troll, the worst kind.

Quote from: Guessed on May 29, 2008, 08:38:03 AM

Quote from: Benocrates on May 29, 2008, 04:53:35 AM

Quote from: narcberry on May 28, 2008, 07:54:33 PM

Quote from: The Philosopher on March 06, 2007, 08:56:23 PM

Quote

•     * You believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your loss (the investment in your mistaken belief) is finite and therefore negligible.
      * You do not believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your gain is finite and therefore negligible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

From a purely logical standpoint, shouldn't everyone believe in God?

I believe in God, but by no means from that logic. I don't have time in my life to believe in everything that that logic would require.
ie. believe in the poisonous ooze living in the sun that will eat your soul if you don't believe in him, but grants eternal booty to those that do...

Nobody asked you...

Be nice, Beno, you used to enjoy debates.

I'll debate anyone legitimate, I disdain trolls. Narc is a particularly annoying xtian troll, the worst kind.

Do you disdain me?

Quote from: Benocrates on May 29, 2008, 01:42:29 PM

Quote from: Guessed on May 29, 2008, 08:38:03 AM

Quote from: Benocrates on May 29, 2008, 04:53:35 AM

Quote from: narcberry on May 28, 2008, 07:54:33 PM

Quote from: The Philosopher on March 06, 2007, 08:56:23 PM

Quote

•     * You believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your loss (the investment in your mistaken belief) is finite and therefore negligible.
      * You do not believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your gain is finite and therefore negligible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

From a purely logical standpoint, shouldn't everyone believe in God?

I believe in God, but by no means from that logic. I don't have time in my life to believe in everything that that logic would require.
ie. believe in the poisonous ooze living in the sun that will eat your soul if you don't believe in him, but grants eternal booty to those that do...

Nobody asked you...

Be nice, Beno, you used to enjoy debates.

I'll debate anyone legitimate, I disdain trolls. Narc is a particularly annoying xtian troll, the worst kind.

Do you disdain me?

No, you are a charming Lovely Country Troll.  You we like.   

Quote from: Professor Gaypenguin on May 29, 2008, 01:50:31 PM

Quote from: Benocrates on May 29, 2008, 01:42:29 PM

Quote from: Guessed on May 29, 2008, 08:38:03 AM

Quote from: Benocrates on May 29, 2008, 04:53:35 AM

Quote from: narcberry on May 28, 2008, 07:54:33 PM

Quote from: The Philosopher on March 06, 2007, 08:56:23 PM

Quote

•     * You believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your loss (the investment in your mistaken belief) is finite and therefore negligible.
      * You do not believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your gain is finite and therefore negligible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

From a purely logical standpoint, shouldn't everyone believe in God?

I believe in God, but by no means from that logic. I don't have time in my life to believe in everything that that logic would require.
ie. believe in the poisonous ooze living in the sun that will eat your soul if you don't believe in him, but grants eternal booty to those that do...

Nobody asked you...

Be nice, Beno, you used to enjoy debates.

I'll debate anyone legitimate, I disdain trolls. Narc is a particularly annoying xtian troll, the worst kind.

Do you disdain me?

No, you are a charming Lovely Country Troll.  You we like.   

I'm not a troll 

Quote from: markjo on May 29, 2008, 07:45:15 PM

Quote from: Professor Gaypenguin on May 29, 2008, 01:50:31 PM

Quote from: Benocrates on May 29, 2008, 01:42:29 PM

Quote from: Guessed on May 29, 2008, 08:38:03 AM

Quote from: Benocrates on May 29, 2008, 04:53:35 AM

Quote from: narcberry on May 28, 2008, 07:54:33 PM

Quote from: The Philosopher on March 06, 2007, 08:56:23 PM

Quote

•     * You believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your loss (the investment in your mistaken belief) is finite and therefore negligible.
      * You do not believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your gain is finite and therefore negligible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

From a purely logical standpoint, shouldn't everyone believe in God?

I believe in God, but by no means from that logic. I don't have time in my life to believe in everything that that logic would require.
ie. believe in the poisonous ooze living in the sun that will eat your soul if you don't believe in him, but grants eternal booty to those that do...

Nobody asked you...

Be nice, Beno, you used to enjoy debates.

I'll debate anyone legitimate, I disdain trolls. Narc is a particularly annoying xtian troll, the worst kind.

Do you disdain me?

No, you are a charming Lovely Country Troll.  You we like.   

I'm  a troll in denial 

Fix'd

Quote from: Professor Gaypenguin on May 30, 2008, 05:08:27 AM

Quote from: markjo on May 29, 2008, 07:45:15 PM

Quote from: Professor Gaypenguin on May 29, 2008, 01:50:31 PM

Quote from: Benocrates on May 29, 2008, 01:42:29 PM

Quote from: Guessed on May 29, 2008, 08:38:03 AM

Quote from: Benocrates on May 29, 2008, 04:53:35 AM

Quote from: narcberry on May 28, 2008, 07:54:33 PM

Quote from: The Philosopher on March 06, 2007, 08:56:23 PM

Quote

•     * You believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your loss (the investment in your mistaken belief) is finite and therefore negligible.
      * You do not believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your gain is finite and therefore negligible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

From a purely logical standpoint, shouldn't everyone believe in God?

I believe in God, but by no means from that logic. I don't have time in my life to believe in everything that that logic would require.
ie. believe in the poisonous ooze living in the sun that will eat your soul if you don't believe in him, but grants eternal booty to those that do...

Nobody asked you...

Be nice, Beno, you used to enjoy debates.

I'll debate anyone legitimate, I disdain trolls. Narc is a particularly annoying xtian troll, the worst kind.

Do you disdain me?

No, you are a charming Lovely Country Troll.  You we like.   

I'm  a troll in denial 

Fix'd

Git

Quote from: Guessed on May 30, 2008, 09:34:25 AM

Quote from: Professor Gaypenguin on May 30, 2008, 05:08:27 AM

Quote from: markjo on May 29, 2008, 07:45:15 PM

Quote from: Professor Gaypenguin on May 29, 2008, 01:50:31 PM

Quote from: Benocrates on May 29, 2008, 01:42:29 PM

Quote from: Guessed on May 29, 2008, 08:38:03 AM

Quote from: Benocrates on May 29, 2008, 04:53:35 AM

Quote from: narcberry on May 28, 2008, 07:54:33 PM

Quote from: The Philosopher on March 06, 2007, 08:56:23 PM

Quote

•     * You believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your loss (the investment in your mistaken belief) is finite and therefore negligible.
      * You do not believe in God.
            o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
            o If God does not exist, your gain is finite and therefore negligible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

From a purely logical standpoint, shouldn't everyone believe in God?

I believe in God, but by no means from that logic. I don't have time in my life to believe in everything that that logic would require.
ie. believe in the poisonous ooze living in the sun that will eat your soul if you don't believe in him, but grants eternal booty to those that do...

Nobody asked you...

Be nice, Beno, you used to enjoy debates.

I'll debate anyone legitimate, I disdain trolls. Narc is a particularly annoying xtian troll, the worst kind.

Do you disdain me?

No, you are a charming Lovely Country Troll.  You we like.   

I'm  a troll in denial 

Fix'd

Git

I just calls 'em as I sees 'em.

Whatever

Do you disdain me?

Why would I disdain you? You're a rational contributor...most of the time 

Quote from: Professor Gaypenguin on May 29, 2008, 01:50:31 PM

Do you disdain me?

Why would I disdain you? You're a rational troll...most of the time 

fix'd