This is Not a Pipe

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Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #90 on: March 12, 2007, 06:28:14 PM »
So if you can't make an assumption ever in a paradox, then how can you assume that if a person does not always lie they always tell the truth.

WTF?

ah.

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #91 on: March 12, 2007, 06:29:30 PM »
Let me put it another way.

I say to you "I always lie"

You have been told though from some unknown but reliable source that when I said that statement I was in fact lying.

The consequence of this is that I do not always lie. But I was lying when I said that.

Do you not get this yet?

*sighs* Paradox: 1. a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expresses a possible truth.
2.   a self-contradictory and false proposition.
3.   any person, thing, or situation exhibiting an apparently contradictory nature.
4.   an opinion or statement contrary to commonly accepted opinion.

Just accept it already. You are wrong. You proved me right, I am done here.

It was copy and pasting that got you into trouble in the first place. I would reccommend just using common sense from now on. Therefore, answer my question!

You can't use common sense on a paradox. Common sense tells you many things. That's why paradoxes are paradoxes.

It's not a paradox hence common sense can freely be used. You should try it some time.

The statement, as a stand-alone statement is a paradox. When you begin to throw extraneous nonsense in there, it MAY become false. You still need to make an assumption to solve it.

I am now lying is easier anyway.

Because it IS a paradox. If something is only a paradox 50% of the time is it a paradox?

The statement by itself is a paradox. Trying to avoid that is stupid.

It's not a paradox, something that has been proven numerous times in this thread.



The statement, as a stand-alone statement is a paradox. When you begin to throw extraneous nonsense in there, it MAY become false. You still need to make an assumption to solve it.

I am now lying is easier anyway.

What's wrong with making an assumption to solve it? Anyway it's not an assumption. The person simply must be lying when they say "I always lie". It then follows that they must not lie all the time. It's not a paradox. Search for "I always lie paradox" or something like that on google you will find proofs.

It is an assumption.

Here is an example

Person A: I always lie.

You do not know a damn thing else besides this person beside that statement. To prove that statement totally false, you have to assume things about person A. Do you follow my logic now? Good. Shut the fuck up already.

What are you talking about? It can only be false. If the answer is true then yes it's contradictory. But the answer is not true the answer is false. Why are you telling me to shut the fuck up when you keep making the same mistake over and over and I'm only trying to correct you in order to stop you making a tit of yourself even more than you already have?

By your logic, you could argue that the statement "The sky is Purple" is a pradox because it's false.

Wow, really bad ad hominem. You can't even spell paradox, much less understand it.

Oh sweet cake of irony how I love to bite through your crisp icing exterior to reach your soft gooey centre




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Raist

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Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #92 on: March 12, 2007, 06:30:39 PM »
Just because someone doesn't Always lie doesn't mean they always tell the truth. If u don't understand that i don't know what is wrong with you.

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #93 on: March 12, 2007, 06:31:28 PM »
Just because someone doesn't Always lie doesn't mean they always tell the truth. If u don't understand that i don't know what is wrong with you.

WTF?
ah.

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #94 on: March 12, 2007, 06:31:31 PM »
So if you can't make an assumption ever in a paradox, then how can you assume that if a person does not always lie they always tell the truth.

WTF?



You are assuming that someone who does not always tell lies must therefore always tell the truth. Can somebody not tell lies some of the time and tell the truth some of the time? Are you really that retarded?

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #95 on: March 12, 2007, 06:32:06 PM »
Find me a source, plz.
ah.

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Raist

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Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #96 on: March 12, 2007, 06:33:39 PM »
Find me a source, plz.

Of what? Please be specific.

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #97 on: March 12, 2007, 06:34:06 PM »
So if you can't make an assumption ever in a paradox, then how can you assume that if a person does not always lie they always tell the truth.

WTF?



You are assuming that someone who does not always tell lies must therefore always tell the truth. Can somebody not tell lies some of the time and tell the truth some of the time? Are you really that retarded?

Oh fuck this, you troll.
ah.

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #98 on: March 12, 2007, 06:34:39 PM »
Find me a source, plz.

Of what? Please be specific.

Of the solution to the argument, without involving an assumption like, "well, they must have done X, because I seen it once in a movie!"
ah.

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #99 on: March 12, 2007, 06:35:02 PM »
So if you can't make an assumption ever in a paradox, then how can you assume that if a person does not always lie they always tell the truth.

WTF?



You are assuming that someone who does not always tell lies must therefore always tell the truth. Can somebody not tell lies some of the time and tell the truth some of the time? Are you really that retarded?

Oh fuck this, you troll.

Just because you don't have the mental capacity to understand that "I always lie" is not a paradox doesn't mean I am a troll.

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #100 on: March 12, 2007, 06:36:07 PM »
So if you can't make an assumption ever in a paradox, then how can you assume that if a person does not always lie they always tell the truth.

WTF?



You are assuming that someone who does not always tell lies must therefore always tell the truth. Can somebody not tell lies some of the time and tell the truth some of the time? Are you really that retarded?

Oh fuck this, you troll.

Just because you don't have the mental capacity to understand that "I always lie" is not a paradox doesn't mean I am a troll.

Right back at you. Provide 6 sources, and I'll concede.
ah.

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #101 on: March 12, 2007, 06:36:29 PM »
Find me a source, plz.

Of what? Please be specific.

Of the solution to the argument, without involving an assumption like, "well, they must have done X, because I seen it once in a movie!"

You make an assupmtion also. In trying to make it a paradox you assume that if the person does not always lie then that means they never lie.

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #102 on: March 12, 2007, 06:38:35 PM »
Find me a source, plz.

Of what? Please be specific.

Of the solution to the argument, without involving an assumption like, "well, they must have done X, because I seen it once in a movie!"

You make an assupmtion also. In trying to make it a paradox you assume that if the person does not always lie then that means they never lie.

I am not making an "assupmtion[sic]"; I am taking it for what it is. This person claims to always lie. I know nothing else. So I suppose that their statement must also follow the logic of, "I am lying now."

Since if they always lie, they are lying right now. I know nothing else about them, and nothing about what else they've said. So, all I have to work with, is a diminutive statement, about their falsehood. Self-contradictory, and false.

Provide me a source for your argument please. I've provided 5 now. Provide me 6.
ah.

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Raist

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Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #103 on: March 12, 2007, 06:39:55 PM »
So when you suppose that this is the same logic are you actually saying you assume? please provide 6 sources.

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #104 on: March 12, 2007, 06:41:47 PM »
So when you suppose that this is the same logic are you actually saying you assume? please provide 6 sources.

Man, just fuck you. You're hopelessly stupid. I chose the word suppose when I really meant to say, "THESE FOLLOW THE LOGIC OF X." I didn't want to seem like a gigantic asshole. But now you've made me have to be one.
ah.

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Raist

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Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #105 on: March 12, 2007, 06:44:06 PM »
Quote
I didn't want to seem like a gigantic asshole


well you failed. And you do assume. Those two instances are completely different. The same logic CANNOT be used.

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #106 on: March 12, 2007, 06:45:07 PM »
Quote
I didn't want to seem like a gigantic asshole
The same logic CANNOT be used.

...ralmfao.
ah.

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Raist

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Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #107 on: March 12, 2007, 06:47:32 PM »
Hey sprinkz ur in college right?

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #108 on: March 12, 2007, 06:48:38 PM »
Find me a source, plz.

Of what? Please be specific.

Of the solution to the argument, without involving an assumption like, "well, they must have done X, because I seen it once in a movie!"

You make an assupmtion also. In trying to make it a paradox you assume that if the person does not always lie then that means they never lie.

I am not making an "assupmtion[sic]"; I am taking it for what it is. This person claims to always lie. I know nothing else. So I suppose that their statement must also follow the logic of, "I am lying now."

Since if they always lie, they are lying right now. I know nothing else about them, and nothing about what else they've said. So, all I have to work with, is a diminutive statement, about their falsehood. Self-contradictory, and false.

Provide me a source for your argument please. I've provided 5 now. Provide me 6.

Keep pointing out my typos. It's making you appear really intelligent. It doesn't make you out to be a complete retard at all.

You have provided zero sources. We have provided you with common sense explanations which you have ignored because you're too dense or too ignorant to listen to them.

I always lie. If I'm telling the truth then that must mean I'm lying which means I'm telling the truth...etc Yes well done, it's contradictory.

Unfortunately, you retarded piece of horse shit, a paradox is not a paradox if it's only a paradox when you look at one possible answer. Now listen up you sniveling little fuck tard and listen good. If I'm lying then that CAN ONLY MEAN ONE THING. THIS DOES NOT REQUIRE AN ASSUMPTION IT IS A FUCKING FACT YOU STUPID LITTLE TURD. What this means is that in this instance I am lying. I don't always lie. There you go you ignorant, rude, clueless little lepton.

Now go and mull it over and come back when you have re-read the definition of a paradox. Wanker.

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Raist

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Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #109 on: March 12, 2007, 06:51:23 PM »
Wow he is a troll. He's either really good at it or a little fuck. I'm guessing both. Well maybe one day he'll lose his virginity and be a better person. But until that day.....

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2007, 06:58:39 PM »
Easiest paradox:

I always lie.

They're right, this isn't a paradox.  Say this is false.  That means you don't always lie.  That means you could tell the truth all the time, but much more likely you tell the truth some of the time, and lie some of the time.

Lying about the statement that you're always lying (thus making it false) doesn't imply that you always tell the truth.  It would only be a paradox if this were true.

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Raist

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Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #111 on: March 12, 2007, 07:01:24 PM »
Eh, he was probably trolling. No one is actually that dense.

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skeptical scientist

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Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #112 on: March 12, 2007, 07:25:34 PM »
Ok, you found four sources for the liar paradox. The liar paradox exists. However, you said that "I always tell lies" is an instance of the liar paradox. You are wrong. Moreover, when four different people told you you were wrong, and patiently explained why, you started attacking them, called them trolls, and failed to understand their point. All you did was ask for sources.

Of those four sources you named, only one of them (wikipedia) listed "I always tell lies" as a version of the liar paradox, and it was wrong. It has now been fixed. The other three did not list "I always tell lies", and one of them even explained why it's not a paradox (technically, it explained why "all Cretans are liars" is not a paradox, but more-or-less the same argument applies). So you found one source, which was wrong, and has since been fixed. You found no others, and in fact found one which was against your case.

You have failed to convince us of anything besides the fact that you fail. Hardcore.
-David
E pur si muove!

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #113 on: March 12, 2007, 08:44:50 PM »
k, then it was my misunderstanding of two dictionaries. I've found two dictionaries that plainly state that it's a paradox, but if you say it's not, then I suppose it's not.

I still want a source that denounces the "I always lie."

I am sure that I am not the only person to say that, and be wrong. Also, the one source I posted essentially said this:

"All Cretans are liars," is not a paradox because he is one of a set. If he was the only one in a set, then it WOULD be a paradox.

So, explain that plz.
ah.

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Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #114 on: March 12, 2007, 09:10:52 PM »
Right. "I always lie" fails for the same reason, since this particular statement is one of a set (the other statements I have made in my life) so the same argument works.

Wikipedia wrote (as of just now - ):
Quote
The statement "I always lie" is often considered to be a version of the liar paradox, but is not actually paradoxical. It could be the case that the statement itself is a lie, because the speaker sometimes tells the truth, and this interpretation does not lead to a contradiction. The belief that this is a paradox results from a false dichotomy - that either the speaker always lies, or always tells the truth - when it is possible that the speaker occasionally does both.

Upon doing some googling, it appears that this is actually commonly given as a version of the liar paradox, despite the fact that it's not, so you can be forgiven for thinking it is. You should simply understand that just because a lot of internet sources say one thing, they could be wrong, and it is entirely possible that the people you are talking to know what they're talking about, and the random internet sources don't.

Edit: if you want a refutation that wasn't written by me, there's this, taken from thelogician.net:
Quote
We cannot avoid the issue by formulating the liar paradox as a generality. The proposition 'I always lie' can simply be countered by 'you lie sometimes (as in the case 'I always lie'), but sometimes you speak truly'; it only gives rise to double paradox in indicative form. Likewise, the proposition 'all propositions are false' can be countered by 'some, some not', without difficulty.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2007, 09:15:17 PM by skeptical scientist »
-David
E pur si muove!

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #115 on: March 12, 2007, 09:21:28 PM »
Thank you, I was wrong. I'd rather behave in a wise manner, than be a stubborn fool. Thanks for proving me wrong.
ah.

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #116 on: March 12, 2007, 09:27:24 PM »
Thank you, I was wrong. I'd rather behave in a wise manner, than be a stubborn fool. Thanks for proving me wrong.

Sorry but not only were you most assuredly a stubborn fool, you were an abusive flamer.
Quote from: BOGWarrior89

I'm giving you five points for that one


Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #117 on: March 12, 2007, 09:29:40 PM »
Thank you, I was wrong. I'd rather behave in a wise manner, than be a stubborn fool. Thanks for proving me wrong.

Sorry but not only were you most assuredly a stubborn fool, you were an abusive flamer.

I didn't see any proof until now. I seen proof from a source, now I concede. You can't just win an argument by screaming as loud as you can. Nothing gets done. I was never being stubborn, I merely ASKED for sources.

Furthermore, I wasn't the one constantly attacking my sexuality, like Racist, or whatever his alias is. The other one just spewed out a bunch of insults in the most hastily, and incorrect manner and then made their point.

The worst I said was: you fail.

You sir, fail. Also, nice comma splice. Your quip is an abortion.
ah.

Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #118 on: March 12, 2007, 09:35:59 PM »
Thank you, I was wrong. I'd rather behave in a wise manner, than be a stubborn fool. Thanks for proving me wrong.

Sorry but not only were you most assuredly a stubborn fool, you were an abusive flamer.

I didn't see any proof until now. I seen proof from a source, now I concede. You can't just win an argument by screaming as loud as you can. Nothing gets done. I was never being stubborn, I merely ASKED for sources.

Furthermore, I wasn't the one constantly attacking my sexuality, like Racist, or whatever his alias is. The other one just spewed out a bunch of insults in the most hastily, and incorrect manner and then made their point.

The worst I said was: you fail.

You sir, fail. Also, nice comma splice. Your quip is an abortion.

Throw up any amount of BS you want. I don't particularly care since I understood what everyone was trying to tell you after the FIRST time someone explained it. You however demanded a source and provided 4 garbage links and proceeded to flame your little ass off and act all high and mighty when someone finally slams your face in the fecal matter that is your mistake.
Quote from: BOGWarrior89

I'm giving you five points for that one


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skeptical scientist

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Re: This is Not a Pipe
« Reply #119 on: March 12, 2007, 09:37:04 PM »
Thank you, I was wrong. I'd rather behave in a wise manner, than be a stubborn fool. Thanks for proving me wrong.

Sorry but not only were you most assuredly a stubborn fool, you were an abusive flamer.

I didn't see any proof until now. I seen proof from a source, now I concede. You can't just win an argument by screaming as loud as you can. Nothing gets done. I was never being stubborn, I merely ASKED for sources.
Why does an argument have to be sourced to be valid? You were completely ignoring our arguments, and then I went and edited it into Wikipedia (which was an improvement to the article, by the way) and you suddenly realized the error of your ways. The important thing to consider from any argument is the content, not the source. The source of a fact matters, because there's a question of whether or not the fact is trustworthy. The source of an argument does not, because you don't need to know whether or not to trust the source; you need only examine the argument to see if it is correct or incorrect.

Quote
Furthermore, I wasn't the one constantly attacking my sexuality, like Racist, or whatever his alias is. The other one just spewed out a bunch of insults in the most hastily, and incorrect manner and then made their point.
When you dish out the insults, don't be surprised when you get some back.

Quote
The worst I said was: you fail.
That is complete and utter bullshit.
Man, just fuck you. You're hopelessly stupid.

I'd rather behave in a wise manner, than be a stubborn fool.
It's waaaay too late for that.
-David
E pur si muove!