An exercise in Logic

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6strings

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An exercise in Logic
« on: February 02, 2006, 06:49:14 PM »
So the thread is badly named.  Sue me.

I just had a thought; post-modern relativism.

Alrighty flat-earthers, listen up, because this might just be the bullshit theory that you can use as a lifeboat in these horribly unfriendly, and all-too-well charted seas of Logic, Reason, and Scientific Fact.

Essentially, post modern relativism states that (roughly paraphrased):
1) The unisvers does not physically exist
2) We only percieve things in our own "reality construct", and have no way of experiencing them from another's point of view
3) As things don't truly exist, our only understanding of them is through our experiences of them, which cannot, necessarily, be stated to relate to another's experiences.

Ergo, all views of the world are equally valid.  The earth is flat, if you believe it's flat.

Here's the catch though; it's also round if you think it's round.
Granted it's not the round-earth smashing theory you're looking for, but it's probably the closest you're gonna get.

So, opinions?

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joffenz

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An exercise in Logic
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2006, 02:22:30 AM »
It's sort of likle Schroeder's cat which is both dead and alive until the box is opened. The Earth is both round and flat until someone goes into space and sees what shape it is.

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Erasmus

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An exercise in Logic
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2006, 12:02:36 PM »
My issue with PMR is that it's essentially describing a function with no inputs but "regular" outputs.

A "non-PMR" view of perception would be that you have some function P(x) which takes some chunk of the external universe x and maps it to your subjective experiences.  P will be defined in terms of your neurological states, and mental states if you believe that there's a distinction.  In this view, any regularity in the output of P (e.g. I see lots of things that I think are human faces, I see lots of things that I think are straight lines, etc.) will correspond both to regularities in P and regularities in the input, i.e., the universe.

The PMR view however is that P has no input.  Or, it does, but P doesn't depend on the input.  Either way, the only way to explain apparent regularities in the output is by saying that P is a reasonably regular machine that produces outputs.  But this is basically equivalent to solipsism: all you have is some mechanism that produces subjective experience, in a nice and regular way, but otherwise is unaffected by the outside universe.  And solipsism is just.... idiotic.

I don't like it.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Cinlef

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An exercise in Logic
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2006, 12:35:54 PM »
That Eramus my friend is cause its just bullshit. As evidenced by
http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo
An enraged
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

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6strings

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An exercise in Logic
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2006, 11:02:17 PM »
Well of course it's bullshit.  That's the point.  But can you prove  it's unreasonable?

And in reference to the regular output with varying input concept:  It's concievable, even likely, if we accept PMR, that the experiences for everyone actually varies, and when we try to communicate the concept, others merely interpret it according to their views on reality.  There's no way to prove that what you're experiencing is the same as what someone else is.

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Erasmus

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An exercise in Logic
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2006, 01:19:39 AM »
Quote from: "6strings"
It's concievable, even likely, if we accept PMR, that the experiences for everyone actually varies, and when we try to communicate the concept, others merely interpret it according to their views on reality.  There's no way to prove that what you're experiencing is the same as what someone else is.


Sure, I agree!  But I'm only referring to the apparently regularly in how *I* perceive the world.  I'm not comparing it to anybody else's "lens", since, as you correctly argue, no objective comparison could be made.  But it seems to me that my lens is either (a) a movie projector, or, (b) a window into a regular universe.  I choose to believe (b), for reasons both aesthetic and practical.  The practical reason is that if (a) were true, then I wouldn't have anybody to discuss the movie with, except for my imaginary friends, the characters in the movie :P  And then I would be.... bullhorn!

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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6strings

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An exercise in Logic
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2006, 12:29:28 PM »
Touche.
On a related note, did you know that there are some courses in universities where if you don't put quotation marks around the word "reality", you fail?

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Cinlef

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An exercise in Logic
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2006, 12:56:13 PM »
not fail loose marks
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

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6strings

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An exercise in Logic
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2006, 01:37:28 PM »
It's still stupid.

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Erasmus

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An exercise in Logic
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2006, 03:20:54 PM »
Let's do a little deconstruction of our own, shall we?

I think postmodernist relativism has suffered decontextualization in the face of the prevailing neo-heliocentrist paradigm.  A careful examination reveals an intellectual class struggle underpinning discussion on this forum.  The oppressed class in question is the "little learning" class -- those with an introduction to formal science, either through secondary or post-secondary institution(alism), finding themselves at odds with the authoritarian and repressive modality of so-called mathematics, so-called logic, and the so-called hard sciences.  Unable to surrender their intellectual hegemony to the demands of the patriarchal elite (referred to in the institutionalist jargon as "passing exams") they seize upon an alternate, superior, more comfortable truth: science is a pack of lies based on nothing at all!  Finding solace and strength in the company (and mutual reassurance) of their equally unbrilliant peers, they revolt against their oppressors, either by publishing in "Social Texts" or by going on the internet and trying to prove that the Earth is flat.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Cinlef

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An exercise in Logic
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2006, 03:44:51 PM »
You mena its simmilar to people who say school is useless because everything they needed to learn the learned on the streets. See I've found if you press those people they'll admit they just suck at writing tests so they question the validity of education,at least they didn't so overcompensate and attack reality itself.
An amused
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

?

6strings

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An exercise in Logic
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2006, 05:57:43 PM »
Hey, Eramus, remeber that time when I told you that you weren't funny?
I take it back.

An exercise in Logic
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2006, 07:02:07 PM »
LOGIC 101
Quote
I think postmodernist relativism has suffered decontextualization in the face of the prevailing neo-heliocentrist paradigm. A careful examination reveals an intellectual class struggle underpinning discussion on this forum.
Righty oh, he's found the thesaurus button compliments an imagined field of study quite nicely.
Quote
The oppressed class in question is the "little learning" class -- those with an introduction to formal science, either through secondary or post-secondary institution(alism), finding themselves at odds with the authoritarian and repressive modality of so-called mathematics, so-called logic, and the so-called hard sciences.
Ah...forgive me if I am wrong, but I do believe that there was indeed no "oppressed class in question" in your opening salvo of bullshyte that this second, more pungent paragraph makes a direct reference to. This inability to combine what outwardly appears to be high level intellectual thought processes into a single sensible argument becomes pure comedy when it gets nasty with some perceived intellectual underachievers. Rather, it is the author is quite clearly the one struggling at the limit of his abilities with a word processor. I believe the post is more fable than  paradigm and therefore the pretentious BALONEY is fit only for the underside of the s-bend with all the other steaming logs contributed by team round. BURNT.

An exercise in Logic
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2006, 07:05:03 PM »
Quote
Hey, Eramus, remeber that time when I told you that you weren't funny?
I take it back.


Hey, don't take it back. It really was crap. You can retain your dignity mate. While your at it RENOUNCE ALL THINGS ROUND AND JOIN THE FLAT SIDE. :shock:

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Erasmus

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An exercise in Logic
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2006, 07:18:17 PM »
Quote from: "ZOOBTRON"
RENOUNCE ALL THINGS ROUND AND JOIN THE FLAT SIDE. :shock:


Your feeble mind tricks won't work here!
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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6strings

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An exercise in Logic
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2006, 08:59:31 PM »
Zoobtron...do you actually have anything to say on relativism, or are you just chiming in because your parents locked you in you room again and you've got nothing better to do?

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Erasmus

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An exercise in Logic
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2006, 11:38:53 PM »
Quote from: "ZOOBTRON"
LOGIC 101
Quote
I think postmodernist relativism has suffered decontextualization in the face of the prevailing neo-heliocentrist paradigm. A careful examination reveals an intellectual class struggle underpinning discussion on this forum.
Righty oh, he's found the thesaurus button compliments an imagined field of study quite nicely.
Quote
The oppressed class in question is the "little learning" class -- those with an introduction to formal science, either through secondary or post-secondary institution(alism), finding themselves at odds with the authoritarian and repressive modality of so-called mathematics, so-called logic, and the so-called hard sciences.
Ah...forgive me if I am wrong, but I do believe that there was indeed no "oppressed class in question" in your opening salvo of bullshyte that this second, more pungent paragraph makes a direct reference to. This inability to combine what outwardly appears to be high level intellectual thought processes into a single sensible argument becomes pure comedy when it gets nasty with some perceived intellectual underachievers. Rather, it is the author is quite clearly the one struggling at the limit of his abilities with a word processor. I believe the post is more fable than  paradigm and therefore the pretentious BALONEY is fit only for the underside of the s-bend with all the other steaming logs contributed by team round. BURNT.


I'm glad you were following along.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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joffenz

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An exercise in Logic
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2006, 04:41:10 AM »
Quote from: "ZOOBTRON"
Ah...forgive me if I am wrong,

You are forgiven :)
Quote from: "ZOOBTRON"

Rather, it is the author is quite clearly the one struggling at the limit of his abilities with a word processor.


Quote from: "ZOOBTRON"
bullshyte


Interesting word, you clearly have no trouble with a word processor.

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6strings

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An exercise in Logic
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2006, 12:10:20 PM »
Not to side with that idiot, but that's actually and archaic spelling of bullshit, so he's not technically wrong, he's just living in the medieval ages...not that that's unexpected given that he believes that the earth is flat...

An exercise in Logic
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2006, 10:29:32 PM »
And I'll run you through with my claymore if I hear any of this round earth nonsense.  :evil: