People believe what they want to believe

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People believe what they want to believe
« on: January 26, 2006, 10:37:01 PM »
And there will be always someone to tell them the lies they would like to believe.
Of course, there are also some people seeking the truth.

Re: People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2006, 11:56:43 PM »
True, people usually believe what they want to. But I would go further and say that their beliefs and even their desires are controlled by the sovereign God!

Quote from: "Javier_Vierja"
And there will be always someone to tell them the lies they would like to believe.
Yes, there always is; and scripture tells us that God himself sends certain men a "strong delusion" so that they will "believe a lie" and “be dammed”.

Quote from: "Javier_Vierja"
Of course, there are also some people seeking the truth.
Yes, but here again I believe that it is God in his sovereign grace who gives them the desire, as the natural man is at enmity with God (truth) and will never of his own accord pursue Him.

Sincerely, Zach Doty
heck Out My Website FightingForLiberty.org

People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2006, 12:32:42 AM »
I understand that it is convenient for you to believe that, because then  you are not responsible of all the insanity that you have in your mind, but God is the guilty for that. So, you don't try to change yourself because if God made you so idiotic, it is his will and you won't do anything to change.

I believe that God does not show favoritism, as Romans 2:11 and several other scriptures declares.

And please don't post any verse used to bring the idea of predestination because I already know them, but I won't use my time to try to explain them to a robot (or even worse).

And in some ways we become what we believe in, if you believe in an insane, crazy God, that's the features that you are also manifesting.

And I realized (several post ago) that in fact you are under spiritual control, but this control doesn't come from God, precisely. God give us freedom, the opposite of God doesn't.

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Erasmus

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Re: People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2006, 01:10:57 AM »
Quote from: "NarrowPathPilgrim"
True, people usually believe what they want to. But I would go further and say that their beliefs and even their desires are controlled by the sovereign God!

...

Yes, there always is; and scripture tells us that God himself sends certain me a "strong delusion" so that they will "believe a lie" and “be dammed”.

...

Yes, but here again I believe that it is God in his sovereign grace who gives them the desire, as the natural man is at enmity with God (truth) and will never of his own accord pursue Him.


The god that you describe is my enemy -- my Satan.  He embodies intellectual tyranny, stagnation, and lies.  He is the mind's poison and the suffocator of that spark that I think is the best characteristic of Man.  If I were to respect any god, it would be the one who put that spark into men because he desired to know what fruits it might bring forth, but yours is a blight on the orchard of creativity.  Of all the gods that have been presented to me, yours is the most unwholesome.  I will not follow your narrow path into the slavery of the mind.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2006, 01:43:22 PM »
Quote from: "Javier_Vierja"
I understand that it is convenient for you to believe that, because then you are not responsible of all the insanity that you have in your mind, but God is the guilty for that. So, you don't try to change yourself because if God made you so idiotic, it is his will and you won't do anything to change.
No. The fact that God hardens some men and shows mercy to some does not negate their responsibility; this is stated very clearly in Romans 9:18-21
"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

Quote from: "Javier_Vierja"
I believe that God does not show favoritism, as Romans 2:11 and several other scriptures declares.
When it says "there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:11) that does NOT mean he is obligated to treat everyone equal. Instead it means that ALL have sinned and anything that God does to anyone is NOT based upon anything good in them. He does not respect anyone based upon their works; the next verse says it plain: "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;"

Quote from: "Javier_Vierja"
And please don't post any verse used to bring the idea of predestination because I already know them, but I won't use my time to try to explain them to a robot (or even worse).
If your beliefs aren't worth defending they aren't worth believing.

Quote from: "Javier_Vierja"
And in some ways we become what we believe in, if you believe in an insane, crazy God, that's the features that you are also manifesting.
I don't believe in an insane or crazy God. I believe in a good, righteous, sovereign, infinite, just and powerful God; Who loves some men (i.e. Jacob) and hates others (i.e. Esau), Who has compassion on some men (the elect) and judgment on others (the reprobate), Who saves some and condemns the rest. In short, my God is the alpha and omega, the beginner and the finisher of our faith; and the just condemner of the reprobate.

Quote from: "Javier_Vierja"
And I realized (several post ago) that in fact you are under spiritual control, but this control doesn't come from God, precisely. God give us freedom, the opposite of God doesn't.
God gives his elect freedom, yes. But there are some that scripture tells us have been "blinded" by God "According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;", and as it says in John "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

Quote from: "Erasmus"
The god that you describe is my enemy.
If he is your enemy, then you are my enemy and I am your enemy. Psalms 139:21-24 "Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting."

Quote from: "Erasmus"
He embodies intellectual tyranny, stagnation, and lies.
Matthew 20:15 "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?"

Quote from: "Erasmus"
I will not follow your narrow path into the slavery of the mind.
Matthew 7:14 "Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."



Sincerely, Zach Doty

"The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD." -- Proverbs 16:1
heck Out My Website FightingForLiberty.org

People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2006, 08:19:18 PM »
Quote from: "NarrowPathPilgrim"
If your beliefs aren't worth defending they aren't worth believing.

The truth doesn't need defense, the lies do.

Only one more thing, and just for Erasmus:
Even when I still don't know many scriptures (and no one knows all them), I know quite well maaany of them, and I can tell you that the same thing NarrowPathPilgrim did with physics, astronomy and logic in the other thread is what he is doing with Bible scriptures.

People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2006, 08:52:52 PM »
Quote from: "Javier_Vierja"
Quote from: "NarrowPathPilgrim"
If your beliefs aren't worth defending they aren't worth believing.
The truth doesn't need defense, the lies do.
I could say the same thing as an excuse to believe anything I wanted to believe; but saying that wouldn't make me right and it wouldn't make what I believed true. Scripture admonishes, or rather commands every Christian to “be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear” (1 Peter 3:15). This is necessary for two reasons. First because it challenges our fallible and imperfect reasoning and beliefs by exposing us to the side of arguments we may not have heard before. And second, because it we are tools in the hands of the potter created and used by God as his means of saving the lost; as such we must be able and ready to answer the questions and objections of all disbelievers and skeptics.
Anyhow, I’m sure you see the fallibility of your statement. Though debating doesn’t change the truth, it usually brings it out.

Sincerely, Zach Doty
heck Out My Website FightingForLiberty.org

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Erasmus

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People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2006, 01:07:16 AM »
Quote from: "Javier_Vierja"
Even when I still don't know many scriptures (and no one knows all them), I know quite well maaany of them, and I can tell you that the same thing NarrowPathPilgrim did with physics, astronomy and logic in the other thread is what he is doing with Bible scriptures.


I think I can understand that, and I certainly am not condemning spirituality in general, nor Judeo-Christian scripture in general.  I realize NPP is describing the god he worships -- not necessarily the same guy all Christians worship.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Cinlef

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People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2006, 08:08:17 PM »
Not at all lousy predestination believers Man do you truly believe that we are just Gods marionettes??? That we have no choices that we live and die and are good and evil all because of God??? I've always found taht idiotic. We are the children of God not his slaves. He loves us and wishs for us to return that love true love comes not from coercion, God gives a choice allows us the possiblity of damnation so that whe may also come to truly love and follow him, to suggest otherwise is Blasphemous as it implies God is harsh and cruel a tyrant not a merciful and loving Father we make choices (ultimatly they boil down to rejecting or accepting His will) but I make the choice. Otherwise Creation is a mockery. Your making the mistake of assuming that if God knows everytrhing you dont make choices. but Statement A does not follow Statement B. While God is all knowing and knows whether or not I wil ultimatly choose to be (crudly) good or evil I make those descision. As St Augustine explained it God sees the future muchs as you see the present. YOu watching someone rob a bank does not mena you MADE them rob a bank. See God isn't bound by time as we are he perceives all creation as an simultaneous now (see the works of C.S Lewis especially the Srewtape Letters for a better more elegant explanation) As Narrow PAth Pilgrim before you dissmiss people you may wish to a) explain why your interpretations of Scripture are more valid than anyyone elses and b) remeber that ChristHImself opposed your style of self righteous judgement when he saved and adulterous women from being stoned (let he who is without sin cast the first stone.) A bit more compassion and kindness not hellfire and condemnation would be more Christian of you I feel

Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2006, 09:20:56 PM »
Cinlef:
I fully agree with your point of view of the first sentences you wrote, but I have another opinion about the last ones:

Quote from: "Cinlef"
Your making the mistake of assuming that if God knows everytrhing you dont make choices. but Statement A does not follow Statement B. While God is all knowing and knows whether or not I wil ultimatly choose to be (crudly) good or evil I make those descision.


If God or anyone else could know the future, it would be incompatible with free will. Think about it. The two ideas are not reconciliable.
And it is the major foundation of the predestination doctrine. If God knows what you' re going to do, then there is not free will (it would be something mechanical).

The confussion comes because in fact God knows some things about the future, but because some things follows a mechanical working, even in men's behaviour. For example: if He sees you are hungry, He realizes you are going to eat (it is just a coarse example).
He also knows some other things because He knows what He plans to do.
But He doesn't know everything about the future, and He doen's know a lot of things that depends on your will, your decisions.

Quote from: "Cinlef"
YOu watching someone rob a bank does not mena you MADE them rob a bank.

Part true, but if you have the power and the abilities to do something to prevent that and you do nothing, it makes you in some way responsible, or at least "not a very good person".
Unless... you can't do anything. I believe that God is tied to some rules He stated in the past, and now He has to respect them.
It is a vast subject and it would require a much longer explanation.
It have to be with some rights God confered in the past (to Adam and to Lucifer), and now He have to respect them. But I also believe that at the time that He confered that rights, He didn't know (at least for sure) that the things were going to be such as they are now (He didn't know that Adam was going to sin, and (before) Lucifer was going to betray Him).
That's the very nature of free will, and also love: freedom.

Quote from: "Cinlef"
See God isn't bound by time as we are he perceives all creation as an simultaneous now

God perceives the time in a different way that it is for us, but it is not simultaneous. Time is much faster for God than it is for us.

If you are going to reply, please use your own authority (not what someone else said).

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Cinlef

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People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2006, 09:24:30 AM »
Javier_Vierja said
Quote
God perceives the time in a different way that it is for us, but it is not simultaneous. Time is much faster for God than it is for us

Uh no.
Your right that simultaneously is not accurate however its the closest I could come to finding a word that expresses the correct concept. See you and I are bound bvy time. I proceeds for us in a linear fashion past present future (things that have happened things that are happening things that will happen) I hope we agree on this point.
Okay so for a human your point about foreknowledge and predestination is correct. If for example I was to see that you would tommorow be in Boston and kill some orphans at 5pm and did nothing (assuming of course I could get to Boston in time to stop you if I wished) I'd be condoning your action. Since God being omnipotent could always stop you then your argument appears to be valid....
EXCEPT
Your assuioming that God perceives time in basically the same way as you. He doesn't. God created time so He is (for lack of a better term) outside of it. Since He is omnisicient past present and future are irrelevant to him (he knows what has happened what is happening and what will happen.) He chooses to not interfere (so in essence He is condoning your right to choose) .When I said time occurs simultaneously for him I meant that He perceives past present and future silmutaneously. Just because God knows weheter or not oyur will be saved or damned is irrelevant if he doesnt interfer in your right to choose either path. YOu still choose.
My big objection to NArrow PAth Pilgrils whole view of the elcet is that it assumes that people are damnned because they ask God gfor the grace to resist sin and are refused. See that is bullshit as it would make God cruel.
In fact people are damnned because they never ask for divine grace or never repent. Chrits sacrificed himself to redeem humanity and purchase all mankind a chance at salvation.
An enraged
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

?

Erasmus

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People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2006, 11:46:52 AM »
I don't think that God's alleged ability to see the future is at odds with free will.  Perhaps he simply sees all possible futures, but doesn't know which one humans will choose.  Actually, I can see no better reason for a god to give humans free will: it makes his afternoons more interesting!

I suspect that he knows how things will turn out in the end, however.  Basically, with him and his kid as the winners over evil and doubt, and the people who sided with him hanging out with him in a new, combined heaven+Earth.  (Obviously he thinks this would happen; why else would anybody side with him if he wasn't going to be the winner?)  Since the end state is fixed (and thus, free will is not relevant in the very end), the possibilities become constrained near the end; as you go farther back (closer to the present), however, there are more possibilities.  Doesn't mean he doesn't know what they all are, however.

At least, I think that's a good interpretation of what modernized Judeo-Christianity proposes.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2006, 03:56:19 PM »
Quote from: "Cinlef"
Your assuioming that God perceives time in basically the same way as you. He doesn't. God created time so He is (for lack of a better term) outside of it. Since He is omnisicient past present and future are irrelevant to him (he knows what has happened what is happening and what will happen.)

Well, this reasoning is accepted in many religions, but it is not in the bible.

What is time? Time is movement. The past existed, but it doesn't exist any more, the future don't exist (but will exist hwen it becomes present), it is only taht the present exist.
Yes, I know you'll say it is this way only for us, but not for God.
Let's assume this as correct. God being outside the time, He sees all at the same time. Then He knew before you was born (and much earlier) what you'll do in 10 years, or tomorrow, or in a minute (for example: are you going to reply to this or not? can you decide that? God knows already it? Can you change that?).

Then... what can you decide today? Nothing at all.
Let's suppose that God knows that you are going to have an accident. Why He doens't warm you to avoid it?
Of course, the reigions that are not based in the Holly Scripture will invent some ideas, like the death is a friend (the blible says very clearly that it is an enemy) or that you go to heaven when you die (the bible don't say that, you'll go after the resurrection).
If God would know that something bad was going to happend to you and He does nothing, the He would be evil.

In the other hand, if God already know what you are going to do, you don't have any choice to choose what to do, that's simple logic.
The theologians may invent any dark and not understandable explanation, but it doens't make them true.
I know that God is so great and He is far from human capabilities, but He gave us a brain to think logically, not to believe things only because the one who said that is fameous.

If anyone, including God, knows the future, then, the future in some way already exist.
Then, time travel may be possible, etc.
Then, what is the game that God is playing, when He offer salvation to someone that He already knows that will reject?
BTW, quite boring that game.
I could ask a lot os questions, like: why did He create Lucifer, if He knew that he was going to sin and damage all the humanity?

Of course, the religious people and theologians will answer again to those questions with a lot of dark explanations, impossible to believe if you think well.

If you make something, it doen't neccesary mean that you are excuded in all ways of you created.
The time as it exist for us may be created, but it doen't necessary mean that there is not time and has no effect for God.

Quote from: "Cinlef"
My big objection to NArrow PAth Pilgrils whole view of the elcet is that it assumes that people are damnned because they ask God gfor the grace to resist sin and are refused.

Yes, but this point of view is more logical if God knows the future (Calvinist and Lutherans think more or less this way).

Quote from: "Cinlef"
See that is bullshit as it would make God cruel.

Of course, it is what I pointed above.

Quote from: "Cinlef"
In fact people are damnned because they never ask for divine grace or never repent. Chrits sacrificed himself to redeem humanity and purchase all mankind a chance at salvation.

That's right.

Quote from: "Erasmus"
Perhaps he simply sees all possible futures, but doesn't know which one humans will choose.

That's another possibility, it would be something according to superstring theory.
But if we care only of this universe, then He doesn't know what tou are going to do.

I already thought about that in the past.
So... in some universes I'll be saved, and in other not? And all Javier_Vierjas saved will go to the same heaven, or to different heavens...?
It is pretty weird... but I can't say that it is not valid thinking...
(May be you only wrote it for fun)

Quote from: "Erasmus"
I suspect that he knows how things will turn out in the end, however. Basically, with him and his kid as the winners over evil and doubt, and the people who sided with him hanging out with him in a new, combined heaven+Earth. (Obviously he thinks this would happen; why else would anybody side with him if he wasn't going to be the winner?) Since the end state is fixed (and thus, free will is not relevant in the very end), the possibilities become constrained near the end; as you go farther back (closer to the present), however, there are more possibilities. Doesn't mean he doesn't know what they all are, however.


I don't think that the free will will change at the end (but may be, I don't know for sure).

In a big mix of randomness, you can still know quite well how the whole thing will behave.
For example, in physics: in a gas, you can't physically know how each individual molecule will move, but you can know quite well how the whole mass of gas will do. You can't tell exactly where an electron will be at a specific time, but you can tell where a planet will be.

But that reasoning make me wonder what happen with the people with much power (and I don't mean presidents, but spiritual power), can they change things more than what God took into account?

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Cinlef

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« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2006, 05:31:52 PM »
Man first off just as you cannot believ theologians solely because they are theologians you cant dissmiss them sololy because they have fame there arguments must be judged on there own merits.
Your logic implies that there are somethings that God does not know. Since God is omniscient that is a logic fallacy (also since God reveales the future many times to prophets in the Bible that would also indicate he knows the future.)
God knows the descisions you will make HE DOES NOT MAKE THEM FOR YOU.

Simple enought for you?The random elemment is our free will. I choose to accept Gods grace or not. Period. God's omnisicinet so does he know what descisionsI will make? Yes> THat doesn't mean I dont have free will.
Your objection to this as I understand it seems to be that if God knows I will choose to get drunk near a cliff due to this fall to my death and He does nothing then He is in esence killing me.Which would make God evil. Since He isn't I loose. Correct?
Alright to explain this we need to first make a distinction between to types of what we call evil. Type 1 is true evil (read sin) which comes from people CHOOSING to reject Gods will. Okay?
Type 2 is what we call evil viz disease natural disasters the fatal consequence of the laws of nature (gravity causing us to fall to deaths etc)
Type 1 is a product of our free will. Its the price God pays for the chance of us becoming his loving children.
Type 2 isnt really evil. Sure the world is dangerous and filled with pain but who said it was supposed to be paradisical? Life is menat to shape us and give us a chance to accept or reject God thus the danger. Without type 2 evil there would be noi virtues no suffering means no compassion no danger means no courage, no poverty no charity. Okay
Thus God may know I'm going to reject Him and do evil things but if he interferes then he's focing me to love him and forced love is no love at all.
An enraged
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2006, 06:32:30 PM »
i'd like to believe that no one is silly enough to believe that the earth is flat.

but i know oterwise.

People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2006, 05:06:06 AM »
Quote from: "Cinlef"
Man first off just as you cannot believ theologians solely because they are theologians you cant dissmiss them sololy because they have fame there arguments must be judged on there own merits.

The only authority is the Word of God in the Bible, not what a man could think, including me of course. So, if what a man says in according to what the bible says, believe that, otherwise, don't believe the man but believe the bible.

And the merits must be merits based in finding truths in the bible, not others. The merits can also be showing how they exercised power of God in practice, not to suffer and other things that are not the will of God.

(please select the bible version that you trust better)

Corinthians 2:13

1 Corinthians 2:1,4-5

Colossians 2:20-23

Quote from: "Cinlef"
Your logic implies that there are somethings that God does not know.

Yes, YES.

Quote from: "Cinlef"
Since God is omniscient

God's omniscience consist in that He has the solution to a situation in any given circunstance, not that He knows the future.
BTW: the words omniscient and omniscience I don't remember to appear in the bible.

Quote from: "Cinlef"
also since God reveales the future many times to prophets in the Bible that would also indicate he knows the future.

To know some things of the future it doen't mean that you know all. I already explained that two times.
We being just human, also know some things of the future. God with infinite more capabilities, can know more and more accurate. But He doesn't know things that depends on your free will. But not everything is free will, there are many things and also human behaviour that are cause-effect, that can be predictable with all the information required for the case.
Another case are the things that He predicted because He is (or was) going to do.

Quote from: "Cinlef"
Simple enought for you?The random elemment is our free will.

I made a comparison, I didn't say "it was" free will. It was only an ilustration with something that even when it's different, there are points in common.

Quote from: "Cinlef"
Your objection to this as I understand it seems to be that if God knows I will choose to get drunk near a cliff due to this fall to my death and He does nothing then He is in esence killing me.Which would make God evil. Since He isn't I loose. Correct?

He is not killing you, but obviously He doesn't care about your life.

But anyway, this brings another subject. Because in fact, even not knowing the future, God can realize that something wrong is going to happen. That's why we need to be in communion with God, and as close as possible (it is not the only reason). So we open the door to God to help us.
We need to believe that God's will is to protect us, and He'll do it any time we need. We need to believe that the death is an enemy (not a friend that brings you to God presence), and we need to believe that God is good, not evil, without darkness: 1 John 1:5
And we need to be prudent, that's all our part. God doens't fail doing his part.

Quote from: "Cinlef"
Type 2 isnt really evil. Sure the world is dangerous and filled with pain but who said it was supposed to be paradisical?

It is important to check what you are believing with the bible:
God's first intention was putting the mankind in a paradise (Genesis 1 and 2).
But the ground became "cursed": Genesis 3:17
The ground became cursed not because God cursed it, but it was a consecuence (with another cause - I can explain it better -).

Quote from: "Cinlef"
Without type 2 evil there would be noi virtues no suffering means no compassion no danger means no courage, no poverty no charity. Okay

And the problem is...?
If it is a problem you better don't go to heaven (in the future).

Quote from: "Cinlef"
Thus God may know I'm going to reject Him and do evil things but if he interferes then he's focing me to love him and forced love is no love at all.

May know or may not know. Anyway it is correct that He doen't force anybody, and it wouldn't be love if He does it.

1 Timothy 2:4
It is not a force, but a wish of God.
Based also on this verse, we can expect from God to clear us all this subject (about what He knows of the future) better than we know now. And also on this other verse: 1 Corinthians 14:33

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Cinlef

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« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2006, 11:01:44 AM »
I believe I uderstand why continuing this disscussion is pointless. We are both arguing two different thins. You are trying to show how we have free will because God is not omniscient. I was trying to show how divine omniscience does not preclude free will. Which for the record was more directed at Narrow Path Pilgrim (who judging by his posts does believe in divine omniscience). FUrther disscussion of this is an excersice in futility unless you and I agree on whether or not God is omniscient. I believe I could with effort explain to you why I believe that must be true (I will do so if you like) but that would be a topic for a different thread.
A respectful
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

?

Erasmus

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« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2006, 11:36:11 AM »
Quote from: "Javier_Vierja"
Quote from: "Cinlef"
Man first off just as you cannot believ theologians solely because they are theologians you cant dissmiss them sololy because they have fame there arguments must be judged on there own merits.

The only authority is the Word of God in the Bible, not what a man could think, including me of course. So, if what a man says in according to what the bible says, believe that, otherwise, don't believe the man but believe the bible.

And the merits must be merits based in finding truths in the bible, not others. The merits can also be showing how they exercised power of God in practice, not to suffer and other things that are not the will of God.


I think you're still trying to get truth that has no basis except in human authority.

As far as I know, God never sat down with pen and papyrus and wrote any biblical passages.  In fact, he was never directly responsible for any verse, book, edition, translation of the bible -- there was always some human intermediator.  In most cases, we have no idea who this intermediator was, and in many of the cases where we have some idea, there are serious doubts as to the veracity of the claim that so-and-so wrote the Book of Such-and-such.

All you have is the assurance of humans that God is indirectly responsible for the biblical text, in that he put words into somebody's head and that person wrote them down.  What you haven't got is any reason to believe any of the following:

1) That the message was in the form of explicit sentences, and not just a general idea.

2) That the person who got the message wrote it down himself, instead of passing it along orally.

3) That the people who passed it along orally, or the person who finally did write it down, didn't change it, reinterpret it, or forget parts of it and make up stuff to fill in the holes, as this occurred.

4) That the people who translated the book from whatever language it was written in didn't change the meaning, either in error or intentionally.

5) That the early Church, as a result of its constant internal power struggles and disagreements over what should be taken as canonical and what was apocryphal or even heretical, actually maintained any of the original text.

6) That early Israelite tribes, as a result of their constant internal power struggles, actually maintained any of the original text.

7) Any way of checking any of points 1-6.

So basically, why do you have any faith in what the Bible says at all?

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2006, 07:58:16 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
As far as I know, God never sat down with pen and papyrus and wrote any biblical passages. In fact, he was never directly responsible for any verse, book, edition, translation of the bible -- there was always some human intermediator. In most cases, we have no idea who this intermediator was, and in many of the cases where we have some idea, there are serious doubts as to the veracity of the claim that so-and-so wrote the Book of Such-and-such.

All right.

Quote from: "Erasmus"
All you have is the assurance of humans that God is indirectly responsible for the biblical text, in that he put words into somebody's head and that person wrote them down. What you haven't got is any reason to believe any of the following:

I have reasons, I'll write about them below.

Quote from: "Erasmus"

1) That the message was in the form of explicit sentences, and not just a general idea.

2) That the person who got the message wrote it down himself, instead of passing it along orally.

3) That the people who passed it along orally, or the person who finally did write it down, didn't change it, reinterpret it, or forget parts of it and make up stuff to fill in the holes, as this occurred.

4) That the people who translated the book from whatever language it was written in didn't change the meaning, either in error or intentionally.

5) That the early Church, as a result of its constant internal power struggles and disagreements over what should be taken as canonical and what was apocryphal or even heretical, actually maintained any of the original text.

6) That early Israelite tribes, as a result of their constant internal power struggles, actually maintained any of the original text.

7) Any way of checking any of points 1-6.


1) I believe that's correct.
2) Also correct.
3) It was not orally.
4) That happened sometimes. Translations are not inspired by God.
5) I believe that didn't happen.
The original texts are supposed to be lost (may be because they got too old and were not readable any more), but that's not sure, the Vatican may have texts that the rest of the word don't have access, so we cannot be sure what is lost and what isn't.
6) Similar to 5)

Quote from: "Erasmus"
So basically, why do you have any faith in what the Bible says at all?

OK, This is the "big question".

I see to ways that could help to answer this question.
A) To explain why the human are now in such a problem.
B) To explain in practice what can someone do to solve this problem.

B) is practical while A) is more intellectual and also will have the same problem, because I'll explain A) with what the bible says; but at least you'll have a logic that explain what happen (may be you could like to call it "a theory", but for the one that already believe, it is not just a theory).

So... I'll start with B):
After God revealed his Word, He didn't go on vacation. He is still working. He is a spiritual being, nor matter neither energy, spirit is another thing. Spirit is in another level, but spirit can interact with material level.
From the material level there is no way to see spirit: you cannot put spirit in a particle accelerator and see something. You cannot take a tester and measure spirit. I don't know for sure if the physics will ever be able to see spirit interacting, but it is more likely not.
Of course, you can say: but why do you think that? OK, I learned all that after what I'll explain as the "practical" of point B).

The practical thing is: someone that really want to know the truth, that has the questions:
I) Why there is this universe?
II) Why we live? What is life's purpuse?
III) Is there a God?
IV) What is the truth?
V) What do I do here?
VI) What happen after death? Is there anything or is it the end?

And the more important one (at least in practice), but it's not a question: If there is a God I want to know Him.

People that has an internal power that diligently think and seek for these answers, people that internally whould like to believe that God exist, will find the answers.
Because God is seeing that situation and attitude, and He sees the interest of the person and the problem that he/she has to believe.
The experience of the person may vary from one to another, it is something very personal, but God will do what's necessary to help you to convince (whatever is needed for you, every person is different and require different things to be convinced).
For example: some people in a situation may pray: "if there is a God, please help me with "something", and he got an answer that it would be very unlikely to happen otherwise.
But it is only for some people, because other ones will think: may be it was a coincidence, or may be it was my mind interacting with the environment, etc. So they would need another thing to be convinced.

I am not telling you my own experience because it was something personal, but I am trying to extract the general truth involved. But better let's see what is what God himself says about that in the bible:

Matthew 7:7-8
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

After crossing that line (a cliff, if you prefer) and you start to believe, now other things are available to you.
When someone start to believe (He need to believe specifically at least Romans 10:9-10) he receives holly spirit, and it allows a direct comunication with God (impossible before).

But at this point I'll start with point A):

At Genesis 1 God created the man, and they (Adam and Eve) had three parts: body, soul and spirit. Body is physical, soul is the life, and spirit is the part that had a direct conection with God (because God is spirit).
So, the man had three parts, two of which were for comunicating with the world, the environment, all that you can see, hear, taste, etc with the five senses, and the other part, the spirit was for comunicating with God.
(I can give you all the bible scriptures to show you that, but it would be too long to put all here now).

God said: don't do something, because when you do that you will die. But you can see that they didn't die physically when they did that, but what happened is that they died spiritually, they lost the third part, the spirit. So they became just body and soul, without spirit.
They still could have comunication with the environment (because they didn't lose body and soul), but not with God directly thru the spirit as they used to have. They became limited to the five senses to acquire information. When God said "you'll die" it meant to lose the holy spirit part.
I can explain more about what happened there but I am trying to keep it short.

Then God inmediately promised a redeemer (remember omniscience in the other thread? God has the solution to any given situation, at the moment). God promised a solution to this situation, He had a plan to solve that (and also to solve other things).

The consecuences of losing holly spirit were critical. After that every time that God wanted to comunicate with someone He needed to do something physical, like the burning brier to Moses and other examples.

Also when some people believed, He put holly spirit on them, but conditionally. Some people in the old testament, mostly prophets, had holly spirit on them, but if they went appart from God, they lost the holly spirit.
In this way they could comunicate with God directly, as Moses and other prophets did.
Jesus Christ also had holly spirit on him, and he received it only when he started his ministry, not before.

Look: Ephesians 2:1,5
Why the bible says that we are dead (before we believe in Jesus Christ), if we are in fact alive? Because we have not spirit. We are dead spiritually, without spirit.
What does this of "transgressions and sins" means? This is not talking about something that you did, it is talking about the consecuence of what Adam did. We all now are born spiritually dead as a consecuence of what Adam did. It was not a punishment from God, but is is how the things works, spiritually are also rules, like in other fields. Because, if it was a punishment, then why God endeavors in changing all that with a redeemer? God doen't punish people, He is good, and He always try to help the people.

OK, let's see. Then when someone accept Jesus Christ, he receives holly spirit. He/she again has three parts: body, soul and spirit.
The person with spirit now has the possibility of direct comunication with God. (That's why the veil of the temple was broken when JC died. meaning direct access to God now - a priest is not needed any more to be intermediary with God as it used to be in the old testament, because in the OT the common people didn't have spirit on them -)

As an ilustration I'll say that the holly spirit is like a radio receiver. The waves are there, but you can't here anything... unless you have the proper receiver.
God is there, but people don't have the receiver - holly spirit - to comunicate with Him. Of course you can pray, but it is only a one way comunication in such a situation.

After you receive holly spirit, the receiver, then you have the tool that allow you to understand spiritual things.
Look: 1 Corinthians 2:14
The "natural" man is the term the bible uses to refer to the man without spirit.
It is very important this verse, please read it.

see also: 1 Corinthians 2:15
The spiritual man (with holly spirit, and using it) can understand spiritual things and of course also natural things.

But this man is already on the other side, he crossed the line that can be crossed only believing.

There is a problem to the man too scientist, that only believe what he sees, because he won't see spirit, never. But as I already said, God himself will help to anyone that really would like to know Him and believe. He would do whatever is necessary for you.
But one warn:
Don't try to force God into something: for example demanding some miracle or a demostration.
The one with the problem is you, not God. The one who need help to believe are you. So be humble in front of God.
God sees your attitude, your heart, and He will answer to you.
James 4:6
God will do what He knows is necessary, but don't try to command God in some direction that you think is what you need (or you want).

After you can believe in JC and receive holly spirit, there will be a direct comunication, so God can reveal things to your heart and guide you to know and understand the truths in the scripture.

Of course I know I didn't cover all here, but at least I tryed an explanation.

Life gets another dimension with God. You pass from a "flat" life to a three dimension life (of course it is a figure).
It is something similar as in the Matrix movie: do you want to take the blue pill or the red one?
Life don't get a paradise instantly, but you awake to another reality that always was there: the spiritual reality. You'll also see a lot of problems that you didn't see before, even though they were there all the time you didn't realize of the spiritual nature involved behind them.
Of course, the best of all is God's blessing (and to have a relationship with Him), and to know the truth, at least some of them, it can't be priced, and worth all. I am not regretful of what pill I took.

So, going back to your questioning of the bible, I think that the information to "cross the line", I mean the information needed to receive the holly spirit - and by the way, this is the moment when we become son of God, not when we are born from our natural parents - is clear enough: to accept Jesus Christ as our Lord, and to believe that God rised him from the death. After that we have the holly spirit, the tool to help us, along with studying the scripture, to discover the truths there, even with the translations and copys and all the problems that you pointed above.

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2006, 11:05:46 AM »
Well I am, or have been in the past, concerned with this sort of thing, so I'll try to address some of your points with thoughts of my own.  Starting with the biblical fallibility issue.

So I claimed we don't know certain things or in fact have any evidence for them.  They were:

Quote from: "Javier_Vierja"

2) That the person who got the message wrote it down himself, instead of passing it along orally.

2) Also correct.


First off, I assume that when you say "I believe that's correct" you mean "I believe that the fact you've just called into question is nonetheless a fact."

Okay, so this is a big point of contention for me.  There are many, many events described in the bible that could not have been written down by the people experiencing them.  My favourite is the all-important Gethsemane scene, where Jesus goes off on his own and prays that God may let the cup pass from his lips.  Nobody was with him -- in fact they fell asleep!  When it was over, he was already getting arrested.  So how did that stuff get into the Bible?  Jesus didn't have a chance to mention it to anybody, as far as I know, and I can hardly see him up on the cross calling John or Mary over and bringing up the subject.

Then you've got, basically, the whole of Genesis and probably lots of Exodus.  Probably the creation story was not written down by Adam or his sons.  So did God one day just put it into somebody's head?  And they wrote it down themselves?  Not likely.  I think it much more likely that it was a story passed down by oral tradition over many generations.  This is a standard pattern for preservation of knowledge in the era in question.

I personally find the issue of biblical authorship fascinating; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis for a description of the notion that the Torah was not exclusively authored by Moses, for example.  But even if it was exclusively authored by Moses, it's almost certainly the case that oral traditions about the religion of Abraham were being passed along and would be known to Moses.  

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3) That the people who passed it along orally, or the person who finally did write it down, didn't change it, reinterpret it, or forget parts of it and make up stuff to fill in the holes, as this occurred.

3) It was not orally.


Well, I think the claim "Biblican doctrine was never a purely oral tradition" is pretty hard to defend (though you are welcome to try) especially considering nobody claims that anybody before Moses was writing bible.  And if there was oral tradition, isn't it likely that it influenced what Moses (or whoever) wrote?

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5) That the early Church, as a result of its constant internal power struggles and disagreements over what should be taken as canonical and what was apocryphal or even heretical, actually maintained any of the original text.

5) I believe that didn't happen.


Another great one.  In fact the Roman Catholic Church records that there were such struggles, in particular between James and Paul; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Christianity for that.  You will also want to know about the ecumenical councils, in which the Church picked and chose among all available writings what they wanted to include in the bible, and what they would declare apocryphal.  In particular, they tossed out the gospels of James and Peter.  And for raw power struggles, nothing of course beats the Great Schism in which the church divided and the pope and archbishop of Constantinople excommunicated each other!

Just returning to the councils for a moment.  Maybe you'll claim that divine inspiration was guiding the councils.  But since some people wanted certain books in the bible and certain books out, and some wanted certain doctrines to be part of the Christian faith and some not, they couldn't all have been divinely inspired (unless you would agree that God was playing pranks).  So how do you know that the ones who had their way were the ones who were inspired by God?

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6) That early Israelite tribes, as a result of their constant internal power struggles, actually maintained any of the original text.

6) Similar to 5)


And so my response will be similar.  History -- including that recognized by the Church -- records just such struggles!  Remember how Jacob had twelve sons, and they became the twelve tribes of Israel?  Well, you'll notice that it's called "Judaism", and not "Israelism" or "Abrahmism".  The Jewish faith is the religion of the kingdom of Judea.  The others, with the exceptions of Benjamin and Levy, eventually became enemies of Judea when they allied with the Caananites and formed Samaria.  In the meantime, much of Hebrew writing was highly politically charged, especially in the time of Solomon, when many pagan religious practices were tolerated (basically I see the "prophets" as right-wing political commentators).

What does this mean for doctine?  Well, since the Torah had been around much longer than the rift (which occurred in Palestine), then considering the political strife that was going on, it's reasonable that what was eventually accepted as canonical was the writings of the eventually dominant political force: history is written by the victors, they say.

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7) Any way of checking any of points 1-6.


Not addressed?  Of course, this really was the centerpiece of my argument...

Anyway, history lesson aside, we can get to coming to our own conclusions now.

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I see to ways that could help to answer this question.
A) To explain why the human are now in such a problem.
B) To explain in practice what can someone do to solve this problem.


What are humanity's problems?  Hunger?  War?  Cruelty?  Those things have always been around.  What hasn't always been around is liberty, education, egalitarianism, creativity, and exploration.  As serious our problems are, I think we're doing a lot better than just about anybody in history, including Adam and Eve (who knew nothing of creativity or exploration).

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So... I'll start with B):
After God revealed his Word, He didn't go on vacation. He is still working. He is a spiritual being, nor matter neither energy, spirit is another thing. Spirit is in another level, but spirit can interact with material level.
From the material level there is no way to see spirit: you cannot put spirit in a particle accelerator and see something. You cannot take a tester and measure spirit. I don't know for sure if the physics will ever be able to see spirit interacting, but it is more likely not.


I actually don't have any problems with this; at least, not that are germane to the current discussion (I think).

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The practical thing is: someone that really want to know the truth, that has the questions:
I) Why there is this universe?
II) Why we live? What is life's purpuse?
III) Is there a God?
IV) What is the truth?
V) What do I do here?
VI) What happen after death? Is there anything or is it the end?


Yeah, I think these questions are simultaneously really important and evident of deep-seated human delusions.  They are all based on some assumptions -- that everything has to have a purpose, that objective truth exists -- and on fears -- of death, uncertainty, responsibility.

The questions also reflect sentiments that I consider "nonindividualistic" for a lack of a better word.  Basically, there are many philosophical schools that address these questions by putting the focus on the individual as an end in himself rather than as a cog in a greater machine.  Usually, such schools come with no burdensome "gnostic" ideas and no dogma: every person is invited to consider what the author -- who claims no special access to truth -- has to say, and reflect on whether they want to adopt his ideas into their lives.

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The consecuences of losing holly spirit were critical. After that every time that God wanted to comunicate with someone He needed to do something physical, like the burning brier to Moses and other examples.


This is another thing I don't understand -- why did God have to do it that way?  And I'm talking about omnipotence here.  You're basically postulating rules about how spiritual energies are allowed to work, but with no reason to do so aside from the events of a story that could just as easily be considered a work of fiction.  It just seems to me like these "rules" are a convenient way of justifying ecclesiasticism and setting up an impenetrable defense against rational inquiry.

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Also when some people believed, He put holly spirit on them, but conditionally. Some people in the old testament, mostly prophets, had holly spirit on them, but if they went appart from God, they lost the holly spirit.


This gets me back to the ecumenical council business.  How do we know which ones had the holy spirit upon them?  We've basically decided after the fact.  What if we're wrong?  What if some "lunatic" from the desert who had his own ideas about spirituality came and preached and was declared a heretic, but it was in fact he who had the holy spirit upon him?  Recall that Jesus was in fact just such a lunatic, and was punished for his heresy.

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What does this of "transgressions and sins" means? This is not talking about something that you did, it is talking about the consecuence of what Adam did. We all now are born spiritually dead as a consecuence of what Adam did.


This was something that used to enrage me, until I realized that it's the way things work.  People have always been considered responsible for the debts of their forebears.  This is just the spiritual extension of that "rule".  Jews believed that dementia, paralysis, and other debilitating illnesses were signs that the victim's ancestors had sinned.  The "original sin" concept fits neatly into that sort of belief.  Interestingly, Jesus asserted that it was unjust to blame a child for his parents' sins.  Did he come to save us?  or just to point out that we didn't need saving?

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It was not a punishment from God, but is is how the things works, spiritually are also rules, like in other fields.


Here we go again with the postulation of rules in a system about which we know nothing at all except for what we are postulating, for the sole purpose of justifying the other things that we have postulated (which would otherwise be completely void of basis).

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Because, if it was a punishment, then why God endeavors in changing all that with a redeemer?


Didn't you parents ever send you to your room for being bad?  They let you out eventually, didn't they?  And even though it was only five minutes that you were in there, didn't it feel like three thousand years?

On God as punisher: see... aw, heck, the entire Old Testament!  If having your city obliterated by a meteor shower isn't punishment, I don't know what is.

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OK, let's see. Then when someone accept Jesus Christ, he receives holly spirit.


That's certainly what it looks like on TV evangelist shows....

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He/she again has three parts: body, soul and spirit.
The person with spirit now has the possibility of direct comunication with God. (That's why the veil of the temple was broken when JC died. meaning direct access to God now - a priest is not needed any more to be intermediary with God as it used to be in the old testament, because in the OT the common people didn't have spirit on them -)


More circular reason: once you accept Jesus, Jesus becomes easy to accept.  It seems to me that once I've gone through all the work of believing in God, my brain is perfectly happy to let me think I've gained something out of the deal.  I believe the parieto-temporal lobe is involved with this experience -- if you stimulate that part of the brain (or if the brain suffers from epilepsy originating in that area), you can make a person have a "religious" experience basically indistinguishable from that of Paul upon his conversion!  Neat, huh?

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Look: 1 Corinthians 2:14
The "natural" man is the term the bible uses to refer to the man without spirit.
It is very important this verse, please read it.


Okay, but the same reasoning has been used to support elitism throughout history.

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Life gets another dimension with God. You pass from a "flat" life to a three dimension life (of course it is a figure).
It is something similar as in the Matrix movie: do you want to take the blue pill or the red one?


It's also similar to falling in love -- an event identifiable with the release of certain neurotransmitters, and which typically fades away in about six months.  Point is, the benefit you experience can be explained by a theory about observables that has predictive value.

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I am not regretful of what pill I took.


Well, I'm glad for you (in all seriousness).  I've considered the pill and found its side effects not to my liking.  I'd much rather just watch my diet and stay in good shape and keep my immune system strong.  Then I'll get something that while less ecstatic I believe will be more real and more lastic, and not dependent on any sort of magic (spiritual or otherwise).

The bit before about being sent to your room reminded me of a view I have of the evolution of spirituality: it mirrors the growth of an individual from childhood.  Infants (Adam and Even) have no cares, just a loving parent who supplies them with all they need.  But they also have no real awareness.  As they develop awareness, with it comes a striving for independence, and they begin to grow away from their parents, creating tension.  I think the Hebrew creation myth is a metaphor for this transformation.

As troublesome children, people get into a pattern of reward and punishment  with their parents/gods, with whom the children have their closest relationship.  The world of the children revolves around the parents/gods.  The parent/god instructs them verbally in what to believe, and gives them myths to explain things they don't understand or to give them solace or fill them with awe.

I would say that ancient religions (especially Judaism) were spiritually childish in this respect.

But this is only temporary, as eventually the rift between parent/god and child grows wide enough that the children outwardly rebel, or, experience an age of reason.  They want their own ideas and thoughts; in particular, they want them to be different from what their parents/gods say.  I think that we are now living in an age of spirtual adolescence that started a few centuries ago.

Eventually, the children toss aside the old myths, the stories about Santa Claus and the tooth fairy, and they permanently separate themselves from their parents/gods.  They take on full responsibility for their own lives, and strive to have independent thoughts (though the "rebellion" is over; they no longer insist that these thoughts be different from those of their parents/gods).  The relationship with the parents/gods becomes one of respect and admiration, and the interactions are those of mature adults with common interests and goals.

For no other reason than that it follows the pattern, I expect that humanity will eventually fall into the last category.  We will see God as somebody who can't really do anything for us anymore, but with whom we still want to have aa loving and mature relationship.  People will still pray, but they won't pray for anything; they'll just be calling to say hello.  God will have lost all his mysterious power over what we say and do and think, and instead become an appreciated and respected friend.

As for myself, I am trying to adopt this attitude.  If I'm to have a relationship with God, I want it to be based on mutual respect and admiration, not what some book or mystery has to say.  As I mentioned in another thread (or was it this thread?), the God I'd be most interested in is one who is interested in sitting down and having a chat with me, to see what I've been thinking about and doing.  He'd want me to be a good person, but I wouldn't be one for that reason -- I'd be one because I thought it was the right way to be -- and he would appreciate me all the more for that reason.

Thanks for the discussion.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2006, 06:05:15 PM »
OK Erasmus. If you are planning a trip and you would like to visit South America, I invite you to Argentina. We could talk a lot for sure.
My English is not so good spoken as it is written (that is already far from perfect but I think you can understand), but anyway we will understand each other, I'm quite sure.

I didn't verify the time, but the last post took me more than two hours to write.
I have read all your last post, and I could answer many things you said there (and also in the two links to Wikipedia), but not all. Anyway it is my hope and will to have more answers in the future.

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Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2006, 12:19:32 AM »
Okay, I'll look you up if I'm ever down there :)  And yeah, mine also took pretty much all morning to write as well :P

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2006, 04:27:46 PM »
GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

That got your attention didn't it?  Actually I may have been too bold since god obviously exists as a concept or belief or I would not be typing this now.  The unfortunate truth for all you religio-psychos is that no logical argument for the existence or indeed the possible existence of god stands up to scrutiny.

Firstly take the most basic question of "Must the universe have a cause?".

The temporal and modal cosmological arguments fail since the arguments themselves also prove that god does not exist (ie.  the universe exists therefor there must be a creator,  ergo who created the creator etc. ).

If anyone has any argument against this other than the contents of an old crusty and boring book please answer.  I await in baited conscioussness!

Answers on a postcard
ts obvious isn't it.  No one can prove a damn thing.  Especially in this of all possible worlds. LOL

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Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
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People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2006, 06:29:36 PM »
Actually I never said that I believed in god.  I agree that there are no arguments for his existence that stand up to scrutiny.  However, I would also claim that there are no arguments against his existence that stand up to scrutiny either.  A well-behaved scientist would therefore suspend judgement on the question.  I mean, if you *want* to believe one way or the other, it doesn't bother me, since it's consistent with what I believe.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

[u]People Are Sheep![/u]
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2006, 06:29:59 AM »
Have you ever seen someone smile as a computer tells them information about themself, or laughed as they put details into a computer, and it filled half of it in for them? 'clever thihng!' peoople say. bah.

The truth is people want, even need to be contoled. people enjoy it, like to think that they are on the path higher than all others because they follow and have understanding for some unexistant truth.  for example, GOD, and the churches, influence those who have little else to worry about in their lives.
Since the beginning, humans have banded together for protection, allowing a leader to make decisions for them because they belive its safer. afterall, they can blame any conciquence of action on this 'lead' figure. just as those who have little dareing to think for themselves allow everything to be seen as the work of this lead, 'god' figure.
Just my thoughts. people are sheep.
Easy as 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679

People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2006, 07:16:50 AM »
free will is an illusion. With the advent of scientific predestination we find that we only call our actions "of free will" because we lack the capacity to calculate what will or has happened, even though we are close to having the tools to do it. When the theory of everything is found, hopefully in the next 10-20 years, it means that even though we could never calculate the past of future of something as complicated as a human being, we will still know for sure that all is predestened scientifically if all must follow the rules of the theory of everything.

rules
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2006, 07:28:21 AM »
following the rules of what? our limited human understanding? phyisics?
Easy as 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679

People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2006, 07:28:31 AM »
Since when was the bible written by god?

Everytime I hear the "word of god", it's coming out of the mouth of other people.

Re: rules
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2006, 07:31:47 AM »
Quote from: "Beeper"
following the rules of what? our limited human understanding? phyisics?


I see you know nothing about modern physics to make such a statement.

People believe what they want to believe
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2006, 08:10:56 AM »
why would modern phyisics mean anything? the physics as we know them may be completely wrong or irellivent to anywhere else in the universe. just because everything follows the same laws here, it may not elsewhere. most people who 'understand modern physics' fail to grasp this idea, or prehaps it scares them, knowing all they have learned could mean nothing
Easy as 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679