If space was folded...

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If space was folded...
« on: February 22, 2007, 11:32:29 AM »
If you could open a pocket in space and slip in, what would be the effects?
Quote from: BOGWarrior89

I'm giving you five points for that one


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Ulrichomega

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2007, 01:10:47 PM »
Cheese. That is what would happen.
I'm so tempted to put a scratch and sniff at the bottom of a pool and see what you do...

Avert your eyes, this is too awesome for them...

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Miss M.

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2007, 01:12:18 PM »
I'd probably suffocate in a blanket of nothingness.....
Quote from: TheEngineer
I happen to like GG.
Quote from: Z, the Enlightened.
I never thought in my life I'd write the sentence "I thought they were caught in a bipolar geodesic?"

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Ulrichomega

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2007, 01:24:02 PM »
You would either come out in another location in this universe millions of billions of light years away, you would enter another dimension, or you would enter another universe.
I'm so tempted to put a scratch and sniff at the bottom of a pool and see what you do...

Avert your eyes, this is too awesome for them...


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unclegravy

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2007, 01:23:56 AM »
If people discovered you coiuld fold space, the Origami fans will go crazy.
Quote
The people who feast on exclamation marks will never go hungry agaaaain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2007, 05:55:57 AM »
If people discovered you coiuld fold space, the Origami fans will go crazy.


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Erasmus

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2007, 03:32:45 PM »
If you could open a pocket in space and slip in, what would be the effects?

Could you be more specific?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Pyrochimp

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2007, 03:40:34 PM »
If there's space...and you have a pocket in space...then the pocket is different from the space that pocket resides in.  Therefore, you would be exiting space.  You might enter a different space, but you won't be in the same space.
Some people are ****ing stupid! ~ George Carlin

Mathematical proof of the flat Earth:
[{(Diameter of Earth)*(tan[distance from Earth to sun/distance from North pole to equator])}2]/0

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Erasmus

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2007, 04:41:31 PM »
If there's space...and you have a pocket in space.

What is a "pocket in space"?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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unclegravy

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2007, 04:48:54 PM »
Where all the loose change dissappears into, eventually?
Quote
The people who feast on exclamation marks will never go hungry agaaaain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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EvilToothpaste

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2007, 05:58:05 PM »
If there's space...and you have a pocket in space.

What is a "pocket in space"?

I think it's Mother Nature's kangaroo pouch. 

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Pyrochimp

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2007, 06:03:00 PM »
It's like a pocket in your pants, but with space instead of pants.
Some people are ****ing stupid! ~ George Carlin

Mathematical proof of the flat Earth:
[{(Diameter of Earth)*(tan[distance from Earth to sun/distance from North pole to equator])}2]/0

Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2007, 06:24:50 PM »
If there's space...and you have a pocket in space.

What is a "pocket in space"?

A point that exists outside of normal space.
Quote from: BOGWarrior89

I'm giving you five points for that one


Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2007, 08:37:58 PM »
If people discovered you coiuld fold space, the Origami fans will go crazy.

Completely off-topic, but I have to post this because its unbelievable.

http://www.langorigami.com

All of them, except some of the geometric figures, are made from a single square of uncut paper

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Miss M.

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2007, 03:52:14 AM »
If people discovered you coiuld fold space, the Origami fans will go crazy.
why don't we have a rofl emote? *sigh* I'll get one later from my photobucket.
Quote from: TheEngineer
I happen to like GG.
Quote from: Z, the Enlightened.
I never thought in my life I'd write the sentence "I thought they were caught in a bipolar geodesic?"

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2007, 01:38:39 PM »
A point that exists outside of normal space.

In that case it's not really a pocket in space, is it?  If it's outside, I mean?  Basically, if these hypothetical "pockets" are in no way connected to "normal space" (meaning, I suppose, the universe we live in), then they don't really exist -- they aren't anywhere.  Maybe they're sometimes connected to our universe and sometimes not connected to our universe?  If so, where are they when they're not connected?  How far away are they?  What direction are they in?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Pyrochimp

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2007, 02:03:46 PM »
A point that exists outside of normal space.

In that case it's not really a pocket in space, is it?  If it's outside, I mean?  Basically, if these hypothetical "pockets" are in no way connected to "normal space" (meaning, I suppose, the universe we live in), then they don't really exist -- they aren't anywhere.  Maybe they're sometimes connected to our universe and sometimes not connected to our universe?  If so, where are they when they're not connected?  How far away are they?  What direction are they in?

Well if they did exist, we wouldn't be able to comprehend them.  Everything we operate in and think about takes place in space.  If there was a point in non-space (which would be impossible, since in order for a point to have a location, it would be in space), it wouldn't have a location or distance from us since it doesn't occur in space.

I confused myself.
Some people are ****ing stupid! ~ George Carlin

Mathematical proof of the flat Earth:
[{(Diameter of Earth)*(tan[distance from Earth to sun/distance from North pole to equator])}2]/0

Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2007, 05:32:23 AM »
A point that exists outside of normal space.

In that case it's not really a pocket in space, is it?  If it's outside, I mean?  Basically, if these hypothetical "pockets" are in no way connected to "normal space" (meaning, I suppose, the universe we live in), then they don't really exist -- they aren't anywhere.  Maybe they're sometimes connected to our universe and sometimes not connected to our universe?  If so, where are they when they're not connected?  How far away are they?  What direction are they in?

I suppose you would cease to exist in normal space, but since your pocket of space has a universe that ends in your immediate vicinity I'd say normal space's universe would begin around you. Light wouldn't exist inside that space, but you would be able to see normal space beyond your universal boundaries. And since the normal universe does not end at the edge of your space, everything would simply fold around it and nothing could interact with you.

I'm just attempting to come up with ideas for a fictional novel, for those of you who are confused as to why I ask this.
Quote from: BOGWarrior89

I'm giving you five points for that one


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EvilToothpaste

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2007, 05:52:49 AM »
If you [in the pocket] could see normal space, then couldn't someone in normal space see you? 

Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2007, 08:30:10 AM »
If you [in the pocket] could see normal space, then couldn't someone in normal space see you? 

If existence (and therefore light) bent around you, no. Because light would reflect off an object and bend around the pocket to reach your eyes. Since the pocket wouldn't block light, you would never see it or anything in it. Even if you walked into it, you would simply bend around it and never feel it.

But again this is my take on the whole thing.
Quote from: BOGWarrior89

I'm giving you five points for that one


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EvilToothpaste

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2007, 10:07:34 AM »
If light bends around the pocket then there is no light entering the pocket.  You could definitely surprise someone by jumping out of the pocket, but I don't think you would be able to see regular space from inside the pocket. 

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BOGWarrior89

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2007, 10:17:06 AM »
Did we get an adequate definition for "pocket'?  Wolfwood's question intrigues me.

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EvilToothpaste

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2007, 10:28:29 AM »
Did we get an adequate definition for "pocket'?  Wolfwood's question intrigues me.

That all depends on your definition of "adequate".  I'm just entertaining Wolfies idea for the sake of fiction everywhere. 

This is similar to the "invisible man" idea, too.  It always bugged me that an invisible man has the ability to see when light passes through his eyes completely. 

Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2007, 10:53:42 AM »
Did we get an adequate definition for "pocket'?  Wolfwood's question intrigues me.

That all depends on your definition of "adequate".  I'm just entertaining Wolfies idea for the sake of fiction everywhere. 

This is similar to the "invisible man" idea, too.  It always bugged me that an invisible man has the ability to see when light passes through his eyes completely. 

That is a good point.

But the basic idea was that a wizard in fiction could fold time and space to form a pocket. I'd like to figure out the reality of what might actually happen to decide where I need to alter stuff. What would the wizard need to do in order to exist properly.

As for an answer to what I mean, that would be impossible because the concept is new to me too  ???

Let's say that a human removes himself from time and space and remains at a specific location without existing in that location. Were he to step out of that pocket and back into normal space, he would appear exactly where he had left. I guess the original idea came from whats-his-name's theory about faster then light travel. He theorized that if you could bend space around yourself (yourself being a space ship I would imagine) you could have space act as the infinite source of energy to propel you. Kind of like squeezing toothpaste out of a tube :D

EvilToothpaste can I do an experiment?
Quote from: BOGWarrior89

I'm giving you five points for that one


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EvilToothpaste

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2007, 12:44:37 PM »
:o
If it involves squeezing I'm going to have to decline your experiment. 

I'm not very familiar with that space-bend travel theory (unless it's like the movie Event Horizon . . . but little else can approach that level of stupid).  I think we'll have to get EricTheRed in here; he seems to know a lot about different space-time geometries and what-not. 

Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2007, 05:21:29 PM »
:o
If it involves squeezing I'm going to have to decline your experiment. 

I'm not very familiar with that space-bend travel theory (unless it's like the movie Event Horizon . . . but little else can approach that level of stupid).  I think we'll have to get EricTheRed in here; he seems to know a lot about different space-time geometries and what-not. 

Probably wasn't considered by the scientific community since I cought it on a discovery channel special... Most scientists who make an appearence there are, for the most part, simply publisizing their theory in the hopes of swaying the masses into believing them (the cosmic-rays-responsible-for-global-warming guys for example).
Quote from: BOGWarrior89

I'm giving you five points for that one


Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2007, 04:00:25 PM »
I regret to inform you that these people clearly aren't trained in science to answer your question. I'm not, but I'm just 14 years old.

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Miss M.

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2007, 02:10:44 AM »
I regret to inform you that these people clearly aren't trained in science to answer your question. I'm not, but I'm just 14 years old.
and that's referring to....?
Quote from: TheEngineer
I happen to like GG.
Quote from: Z, the Enlightened.
I never thought in my life I'd write the sentence "I thought they were caught in a bipolar geodesic?"

?

Erasmus

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Re: If space was folded...
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2007, 12:03:26 AM »
But the basic idea was that a wizard in fiction could fold time and space to form a pocket. I'd like to figure out the reality of what might actually happen to decide where I need to alter stuff. What would the wizard need to do in order to exist properly.

You want the wizard to change the topology of spacetime.  This is a bit more than just folding (see below).

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Let's say that a human removes himself from time and space and remains at a specific location without existing in that location.

I don't think that that's meaningful.

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Were he to step out of that pocket and back into normal space, he would appear exactly where he had left.

If you can step out of the pocket, it's not really outside normal space (see below).

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I guess the original idea came from whats-his-name's theory about faster then light travel. He theorized that if you could bend space around yourself (yourself being a space ship I would imagine) you could have space act as the infinite source of energy to propel you. Kind of like squeezing toothpaste out of a tube :D

I think you're thinking of Gene Roddenberry.  That's his explanation for warp drive, iirc.

So, thinking about space and time.  Space and time -- or rather, in modern parlance, spacetime -- is what is called a "manifold".  This means that it doesn't do anything weird anywhere.  It's also a single manifold.

An analogy that I usually hate but which suffices here is that of a bedsheet or tablecloth -- such things are both manifolds (except that they're not infinite, but whatever).  Imagine a sheet that has no irregularities or flaws.  No holes, no tears, no loose threads.  For the most part, our universe works like this.  Well, imagine if you had a bedsheet, and also a napkin.  They are not "connected" in any way: a bed bug on the bedsheet cannot crawl onto the napkin.  Your "pocket in space" is sort of like this napkin: it's not connected to normal space.  The problem is that there is a universe outside the manifold of the bedsheet -- the bedroom -- so it's meaningful to talk about the bedsheet and the napkin which are in no way connected, but there's no universe outside the manifold of our universe.

At least, maybe that's what you want your pocket to be like.  It's not clear.  You have to decide on one of the following options:

1)  There is (in spacetime) a two-way path from our universe to the pocket.  In this case, the pocket is part of our universe.  There are a lot of sub-options here: it can be a distant part of our universe that's connected by a wormhole, for example.

2)  There is (in spacetime) a one-way path from our universe to the pocket.  This is basically a black hole; you'd have to come up with some explanation as to how the inside of the hole isn't a singularity.

3)  There is (in spacetime) a one-way path from the pocket to our universe.  This is basically a white hole; you'd have to come up with some explanation as to how the inside of the hole isn't a signularity.

4)  There is no path (in spacetime) from our universe to the pocket, or vice versa.  This case is not physically meaningful since if the pocket isn't connected to our universe, it isn't anywhere; it doesn't exist.

So, decide which option best matches what you're going for and we can discuss it further.  Note that exactly one of them has to match what you're looking for; pockets that are any combination of those options (perhaps at different times) are really just the lower-numbered option (2 and 4 is really still 2).
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?