A question, good sirs

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unclegravy

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A question, good sirs
« on: February 18, 2007, 03:28:28 PM »
It seems my first attempt at replying to a gentleman's inquiries resulted instead in a topic. I have no excuse for this, and hope that the follies of new members be forgiven.

I have but one question, after reading your informative FAQ.

"The Earth is accelerating upwards at 1g (9.8m/s-2) along with every star, sun and moon in the universe. This produces the same effect as gravity. "

This was written as an explanation for gravity. While it seems logical at first, it would make it seem that either:

A) The whole universe is moving
B) The whole universe is expanding vertically at a rate of 9.8 meters per second, and a large portion of the universe is empty, due to all of the planets and stars moving upwards.

Now, if you pick A, then I would assume that you were a madman who believed in ridiculous things, since even if the universe moved a hundred miles per minute, then we would not feel a thing. This is comparable to a man riding in a moving train, and tossing a crumpled piece of paper upwards; it would still land on his feet (or, indeed, on his hand, if he had good reflexes).

On the other hand, if you pick B, then at a rate of 9.8 meters per second, and at the universe's age estimated at 11.2 billion (at least. Some experts say 20 billion), the universe would have expanded by 9.8 m/s x 31, 557,600 s/year x 11 billion years,  or 3,401,909,280,000,000 kilometers, which is approximately 11 trillion light years. Do all Flat Earthers then believe that the Universe has even more empty space than it had before, and that man's realization that we are but points in a vast space should be revised into "we are but poits upon vast space which is a point upon a vast space..." and so on?

I hope you could provide clarification with regards to this matter.

I thank you all in advance.
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BOGWarrior89

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2007, 03:32:01 PM »
Not to sound nit-picky, but acceleration is the time derivative of velocity, meaning that it's units are "meters/secondē" or "m/sē", not "meters/second" ("m/s").

Due to Lorentz transformations, we would not go faster than the speed of light; someone outside of our reference frame would see our acceleration diminsh as we approched the speed of light, but we wouldn't notice any difference.

A good, if not over-asked, question.

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Pyrochimp

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2007, 03:34:11 PM »
I think he was asking if FEers believe that the universe is at least 11 trillion light years "tall", due to the distance we've covered throughout the Earth's life.
Some people are ****ing stupid! ~ George Carlin

Mathematical proof of the flat Earth:
[{(Diameter of Earth)*(tan[distance from Earth to sun/distance from North pole to equator])}2]/0

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unclegravy

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2007, 03:37:37 PM »
Ah, yes, I seem to have overlooked that fact.

And yes, Pyrochimp has interpretted my question quite well.

I mean to say, if you believe everything in the universe is moving, and if a moving universe would not have any effects on anyone, then you must believe that the universe is expanding.

I am asking then, if FE'ers believe then that we have become even more infinitesimal.

Also, my good friend, who sits here now beside me, is asking if FE'ers believe that earth is the only flat planet.
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BOGWarrior89

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2007, 03:38:28 PM »
Quote from: "Pyrochimp"
I think he was asking if FEers believe that the universe is at least 11 trillion light years "tall", due to the distance we've covered throughout the Earth's life.


I apologize; I am too used to answering to "we're going to go faster than the speed of light!"

Have you heard of the "infinite yet finite" argument?  It was presented by Stephen Hawking, and basically states that the universe is similar to the surface of a sphere: it seems to be infinitely large, but it is actually finite.

In essence, Hawking says we're basically going in a very large circle.

Does that answer your question?

A question, good sirs
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2007, 03:42:19 PM »
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"


In essence, Hawking says we're basically going in a very large circle.



Much like every discussion on this message board then.

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unclegravy

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2007, 03:43:33 PM »
I am confused.
Hawking, as a modern man (this is not to say that all FE'ers are not modern men. This is just to say that MOST modern men of science believe the earth is flat) of science, believes the earth is round.

If he perchance, stated that the Earth was round, would you then believe him? I ask merely for information, seeing that you easily turn to his "infinite but finite" theory (by the way, I thank you for that little bit of fyi) for backup.
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BOGWarrior89

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2007, 03:43:49 PM »
Quote from: "kasroa"
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"


In essence, Hawking says we're basically going in a very large circle.



Much like every discussion on this message board then.


 :lol:   Not the first time we've been accused of circular logic.

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BOGWarrior89

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2007, 03:45:42 PM »
Quote from: "unclegravy"
I am confused.
Hawking, as a modern man (this is not to say that all FE'ers are not modern men. This is just to say that MOST modern men of science believe the earth is flat) of science, believes the earth is round.

If he perchance, stated that the Earth was round, would you then believe him? I ask merely for information, seeing that you easily turn to his "infinite but finite" theory (by the way, I thank you for that little bit of fyi) for backup.


Not unless he backed it up, but I wouldn't dismiss it as a possibility.  But, as I can see that the Earth is flat via my own two eyes, it's going to take some extraordinary evidence to convince me of that extraordinary claim.

A question, good sirs
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2007, 03:47:25 PM »
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
Not unless he backed it up, but I wouldn't dismiss it as a possibility.  But, as I can see that the Earth is flat via my own two eyes, it's going to take some extraordinary evidence to convince me of that extraordinary claim.


Just like the flat Earth theory has shown to you and the rest of the world?
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Tom Bishop

A question, good sirs
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2007, 03:48:52 PM »
Quote from: "MooBs"
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
Not unless he backed it up, but I wouldn't dismiss it as a possibility.  But, as I can see that the Earth is flat via my own two eyes, it's going to take some extraordinary evidence to convince me of that extraordinary claim.


Just like the flat Earth theory has shown to you and the rest of the world?


Flat Earth Theory has plenty of observational and experimental evidence behind it.

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BOGWarrior89

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2007, 03:49:41 PM »
Quote from: "MooBs"
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
Not unless he backed it up, but I wouldn't dismiss it as a possibility.  But, as I can see that the Earth is flat via my own two eyes, it's going to take some extraordinary evidence to convince me of that extraordinary claim.


Just like the flat Earth theory has shown to you and the rest of the world?


Quote from: "I"
But, as I can see that the Earth is flat via my own two eyes


Why should I trust you over my eyes?

A question, good sirs
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2007, 03:49:45 PM »
to tom - Like the shadow object!
to above - light can deceive the eyes, the Earth looks round but it is actually flat!
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In FE Literature there are three celestial bodies that inhabit the sky. The Sun. The Moon. And the Shadow Object.
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You have performed an illegal operation. Tom Bishop will now shut down, you will lose all unsaved arguments.

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unclegravy

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2007, 03:49:57 PM »
Ah, but good sir.

I myself have watched my friends automobile as it leaves my house, and I noticed that as it moved farther away, its wheels disappeared, but its top parts stayed visible.

But I digress.

The senses can be easily deceived. Why, just yesterday, my nephew showed me a fantastic trick with a glass of water, and a pencil, where the pencil appeared to be broken in the water, but was straight as could be when he removed it out of water's hold. My eyes saw it, yet, I would not make such a claim that water breaks pencils, and air mends them.
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The people who feast on exclamation marks will never go hungry agaaaain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A question, good sirs
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2007, 03:50:46 PM »
it wasnt your eyes that deceived you...it was the shadow object!

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unclegravy

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2007, 03:52:25 PM »
My, my.

I beg you good youths to please take your exclamation marks and sarcasms elsewhere. It annoys even the most patient one.
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The people who feast on exclamation marks will never go hungry agaaaain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A question, good sirs
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2007, 03:53:50 PM »
Quote from: "Tom Bishop"
Quote from: "MooBs"
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
Not unless he backed it up, but I wouldn't dismiss it as a possibility.  But, as I can see that the Earth is flat via my own two eyes, it's going to take some extraordinary evidence to convince me of that extraordinary claim.


Just like the flat Earth theory has shown to you and the rest of the world?


Flat Earth Theory has plenty of observational and experimental evidence behind it.

No it doesn't.
Crazy person!
 once saw a video of a monkey washing a cat, that's CRAZY!!
Quote from: "Tom Bishop"
In FE Literature there are three celestial bodies that inhabit the sky. The Sun. The Moon. And the Shadow Object.

A question, good sirs
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2007, 03:53:50 PM »
My my, I beg you to launch yourself out of the 17th century and stop speaking old oxford english, it annoys even the most english one.

A question, good sirs
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2007, 03:54:02 PM »
DO ALL FEers BELIEVE IN THE SHADOW OBJECT??
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In FE Literature there are three celestial bodies that inhabit the sky. The Sun. The Moon. And the Shadow Object.
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You have performed an illegal operation. Tom Bishop will now shut down, you will lose all unsaved arguments.

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BOGWarrior89

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2007, 03:56:42 PM »
Quote from: "unclegravy"
Ah, but good sir.

I myself have watched my friends automobile as it leaves my house, and I noticed that as it moved farther away, its wheels disappeared, but its top parts stayed visible.

But I digress.

The senses can be easily deceived. Why, just yesterday, my nephew showed me a fantastic trick with a glass of water, and a pencil, where the pencil appeared to be broken in the water, but was straight as could be when he removed it out of water's hold. My eyes saw it, yet, I would not make such a claim that water breaks pencils, and air mends them.


Right.  We believe a similar distortion occurs in the atmosphere at large distances.

So, try again, but from a different approach.

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unclegravy

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2007, 04:02:24 PM »
No, no, my dear, it seems you misunderstand.

My question is: FE'ers seem to prefer believing some visual observation more than others.

For example, if I said I had seen a Lunar Eclipse with my own eyes, and the shadow was round, I would be ready to stake all my monetary belongings that you would come up with some fancy explanation for it.

But if I said the earth looked flat to me, why, every Fe'er would agree.
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The people who feast on exclamation marks will never go hungry agaaaain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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BOGWarrior89

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2007, 04:04:02 PM »
Quote from: "unclegravy"
No, no, my dear, it seems you misunderstand.

My question is: FE'ers seem to prefer believing some visual observation more than others.

For example, if I said I had seen a Lunar Eclipse with my own eyes, and the shadow was round, I would be ready to stake all my monetary belongings that you would come up with some fancy explanation for it.

But if I said the earth looked flat to me, why, every Fe'er would agree.


That's because we can look and see that it's flat - the eclipse could be caused by something else.

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unclegravy

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2007, 04:08:37 PM »
Could you not as easily conclude that the earth appearing flat is caused by something else, and the shadow is in actuality, earth's?
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BOGWarrior89

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2007, 04:10:30 PM »
Quote from: "unclegravy"
Could you not as easily conclude that the earth appearing flat is cause by something else, and the shadow is in actuality, earth's?


1)  A disc can still cast a round shadow.
2)  There is an FE explanation for the shadow, so your proof of RE doesn't really convince us.

Try something else. coughFoucault'sPendulumcough

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unclegravy

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2007, 04:13:36 PM »
Whether the shadow is caused by a RE or not is not the issue. The question is, where do you people draw the line when it comes to believing visual observation?

Because, if you ask me, I would rather you did away with visual information altogether, if any a little boy could say "It is a hoax by the government" or "Your eyes are decieving you."

I say, we do without sight when it comes to the discussion of FE/RE, and use science instead.
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unclegravy

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2007, 04:50:22 PM »
For, as Socrates and Descartes have said, the senses can deceive, and are the most evil.
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Tom Bishop

A question, good sirs
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2007, 04:53:43 PM »
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For, as Socrates and Descartes have said, the senses can deceive, and are the most evil.


Then logically, RE is evil since it asks us to neglect our most basic of senses.

A question, good sirs
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2007, 04:56:32 PM »
Quote from: "Tom Bishop"
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For, as Socrates and Descartes have said, the senses can deceive, and are the most evil.


Then logically, RE is evil since it asks us to neglect our most basic of senses.


FE asks us to neglect all senses.

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unclegravy

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2007, 05:46:11 PM »
You are turning the discussion around; it does not matter at all if it is evil or not, we are discussing which is fact and not. Or was that the sound of you conceding?
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Temaki

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A question, good sirs
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2007, 06:32:42 PM »
Quote from: "Tom Bishop"
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For, as Socrates and Descartes have said, the senses can deceive, and are the most evil.


Then logically, RE is evil since it asks us to neglect our most basic of senses.


So, Tom, you totally have that argument all screwed up:

1) Socrates and Descartes say that the senses deceive.
2) Our sense of sight tells us that the horizon is flat, and therefore Earth is flat.
3) Considering the size of our planet, the appearance of a flat Earth could be/is a deception of our senses.
4) To believe the Earth is flat is to deceive yourself.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Disregard that, I suck cocks.