Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« on: January 20, 2006, 01:07:06 PM »
A lot of people say no.  I say yes.  

Evolution means that organisms adapt to their enviornment.  Wouldn't that mean that, if Evolution exists (and I believe it does), that the races must have diverged a little bit.  Specialized here and there?

Discuss.

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pspunit

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2006, 03:25:07 PM »
Doesn't evolution take longer than that? Humans only evolved 100,000 years ago. I suppose it's possible though.
Three people of different nationalities walk into the bar. Two of them say something smart, and the third one makes a mockery of his fellow countrymen by acting dumb."

Re: Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2006, 03:25:26 PM »
Quote from: "Hardhead"
A lot of people say no.  I say yes.  

Evolution means that organisms adapt to their enviornment.  Wouldn't that mean that, if Evolution exists (and I believe it does), that the races must have diverged a little bit.  Specialized here and there?

Discuss.


The concept of evolution is "survival of the fittest", not straight adaptation.

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Cinlef

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2006, 05:49:07 PM »
The word for this is called rascism.
Cinlef
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Cinlef

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2006, 05:55:16 PM »
It is a flawed belief that has caused human bbeings nothing but misery. Surely there are neo-nazi forums on the net where you scum can disscuss how much better you are than people who look different from you? We just got rid of Dionysios and his Holocaust denial BS surely we're allowed a month of peace from rascist scum. If you have scientific evidence you want to present to prove your points do it then I can reduce it to shreds and shut you up otherwise stop posting things like "I feel that evolution must justify my inflated sence of self worth and belief that people who are different and I secretly fear must be inferior to me" crap.
An enraged
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

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Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

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Erasmus

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2006, 06:20:36 PM »
Hm, well, there's lots to comment on so far.  I'll go in last-in-first-out order.

Quote from: "Cinlef"
It [racism] is a flawed belief that has caused human bbeings nothing but misery.


First, exactly whether racism is a flawed belief is what has been put up for debate here.  Second, while yes, it has caused much misery, that doesn't make it a flawed belief in and of itself.  Third, while it has caused much misery on large scales, it's arguable that it has prevented misery on small scales.

To briefly expand on my last point, consider why racism exists.  I refer not to the ignorant redneck's desire to inflate his own ego, but to the somewhat subtler instinct.  One evolutionary trait that most advanced animals seem to share is the ability to tell "us" from "them", whether it's "my wolf pack vs. your wolf pack", "my African tribe vs. your African tribe", or simply "my species vs. your species."  I call this an evolutionary trait because since most animals seem to prefer not to eat their own kind, but rather to breed with them, selectively being mistrustful of other species and somewhat preferential to your own is obviously an asset.  Also, since packs and tribes form around the principles of shared resources and mutual defense, preferentially trusting one's own tribe is also a sensible strategy.

I guess my point is that I believe racism itself is a naturally selected trait.

As for other traits, well, it's commonly held that skin color is selected best suit an individual to his expected exposure to the sun.  Other gross physical features that different the so-called races are probably also naturally selected.  However, it's extraordinarily difficult to tell whether the same thing applies to psychological features, such as mathematical skills or tendency towards criminal behavior.  I would say, probably not.  At least, not yet.

As already mentioned, evolution is a slow process.  Not very long ago, people all over the world had very similar societies.  It is only in the last hundred years that literacy has been anyhow close to common.  So I doubt that such things could have been naturally selected yet.  Also, I do not think there's much environmental pressure to be smarter than the average human: people seem to be just as sexually attracted to dumb people as they are to smart people (on average), and certainly you can survive long enough to breed despite being sublimely stupid, as evidenced by many of the people who spend their time arguing on the internet.

Now that I think of it, this doesn't address the question, which is much stronger.  "Are some races genetically superior?"  What does 'superior' mean here?  Better fit for survival, I suppose.  Maybe.  The populations of Africa and India and China are certainly soaring, despite what Westerners consider to be deplorable living conditions.  Maybe this means that Africans and Indians and Chinese are "genetically superior" to Caucasians...

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Erasmus

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2006, 06:31:39 PM »
I guess my stance is:

1)  Does natural selection induce differentiation among disparate human populations?  Yes, I believe it does.

2)  Is any of the differentiation psychological in nature?  I believe not, since the environmental pressure for psychological adaptation has not been around for long enough, if it is present at all.

3)  Do different "races" show statistically significant differences in behavior or psychological abilities?  Yes, I believe they do, but the trends are probably learned rather than genetic.

4)  Are some races genetically superior to others, by any useful understanding of superiority?  No, I believe not.

5)  Is racism = bigotry?  No.  I consider myself a racist, insofar as I believe that assigning a race label to an individual is not an incoherent idea.  I have been informed by people who care about this sort of thing that this makes me a racist.

6)  Did the Holocaust happen?  I have third-hand knowledge that it did, via sources I trust, and second- and first-hand knowledge via sources who I do not believe to have the capability or the interest to fake something on such a scale.  In short, yes, I believe it did.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Cinlef

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2006, 08:02:29 PM »
Quote
5) Is racism = bigotry? No. I consider myself a racist, insofar as I believe that assigning a race label to an individual is not an incoherent idea. I have been informed by people who care about this sort of thing that this makes me a racist.

Eramus what does that mean exactly?
An bemused
Cinlef
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Erasmus

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2006, 04:05:57 PM »
Quote from: "A bemused Cinlef"
Eramus what does that mean exactly?


Well, a lot of the discussions I've had with people who care about ending racism say that not only is racism "wrong" but also meaningless, in the sense that if I were to meet you, Cinlef, and say to myself or to somebody else, "I think Cinlef is Asian" (for example), then all I'm doing is somehow giving a reflection of my personal experience and upbringing, and that I'm not really making a statement about Cinlef.  In other words, "racial distinctions" are an invention of the minds of the people making the distinctions; the distinctions aren't really there.

This view would usually be termed "postmodernist", and I think it's nonsensical.  You will often here similar claims: "There are no such things as 'male' and 'female': gender distinctions are invented by society;" an idea I also disagree with.  In both cases, I think you can do some sort of meaningful statistical study of race or gender demographics, and find "modes".  For race, you'd have some sort of multimodal distribution, and for gender, a binary distribution.  Sure, there would be outliers (people with Native American, Irish, Egyptian, and Mongolian ancestry, for example; or people who due to a genetic disorder share both male and female traits)... but I do not believe that the existence of outliers proves that a data set has no regularities or features.  Basically what postmodernists seem to be claiming is that the universe has no real, objective features; all observations of events or objects are essentially inventions of the observer.

In the eyes of people who adhere to such philosophy, I am a racist and a sexist, because I believe that such distinctions are real and useful for at least some purposes.  Okay.

Postmodernists publish a journal called "Social Text", which in its capacity to harm a rational society makes The Flat Earth Society look like.... I dunno, chuch Bingo on Fridays.  There was in recent years a rather damning hoax demonstrating the ignorance and rather scary mentality of the journal's editors and reader base, perpetrated by accomplished realist physicist Alan Sokal.  See http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/.  Prepare to be enraged and frightened.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Re: Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2006, 04:20:14 PM »
Quote from: "Hardhead"
A lot of people say no.  I say yes.  

Evolution means that organisms adapt to their enviornment.  Wouldn't that mean that, if Evolution exists (and I believe it does), that the races must have diverged a little bit.  Specialized here and there?

Discuss.


Humans have opposable thumbs. Therefore we are genetically superior at giving the thumbs-up to things.

: )

I think a problem with the PC culture is one echoed in Terry Pratchett's Strata - in the global culture the Eskimo Hunter learns Finance but the German Banker doesn't learn Spear-Fishing.

This is the drawback of a truly equal society - no identity. Utopian.

Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2006, 04:22:03 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
You will often here similar claims: "There are no such things as 'male' and 'female': gender distinctions are invented by society;" an idea I also disagree with.


I agree.

Here is one gender distinction between male and female: Males have external genitalia.

Invented by society? How? Baby-Surgery?

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Erasmus

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2006, 04:28:18 PM »
Quote from: "Panda"
Invented by society? How? Baby-Surgery?


Sometimes!  Occassionally the genitalia, initially female during gestation, fail to fully differentiate to the guy variety.  So a decision (usually 'male', say the activists) will be made as to which way the baby's gonna go, a surgeon is brought in, and the decision is "put in writing", you might say.  Very often, later in life, the child will freak out and decide he or she is in the wrong body.  Pretty creepy, but it happens.  Postmodernists usually give this as evidence that gender is decided by something non-objective.  The fact that such cases of gender ambiguity are rare (there are other kinds of gender ambiguity, btw, also rare) -- and that that's important -- doesn't seem to register with these people.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Cinlef

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2006, 07:59:06 PM »
Ah Erasmus your correct at least partly.Post modernists are basically the sophists of today (and I dont mean that in a nice way, but more in the sense that that Plato would use it) except that rather than attempting to convince people that things that are true are in fact false they attemp to convince people that true and flase are just arbitrary labels applied to our reality construct blah blah blah. This is to someone with with a Catholic/Plato based philosophical worrldview (like say me) absolute bs. (I refer you to the book How Mumbo Jumbo Conquered the World
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/158648348X/sr=1-3/qid=1137901528/ref=pd_bbs_3/104-6120856-0124740?%5Fencoding=UTF8 which has an excellent chapter on post modernists and the obvious flaws and fallacies of it)
However my point above is not that racial distinctions do not exists obviously some people are Caucasian some people are Africam some epople are Indian some people are Amerindian some people are Polynesian some people are Asian some people are Arabs etc. My point is that no race is superior or inferior to any other race. Nor does someones race influence there abillities in any way. THe difference between races in any ability is due to cultural and social factors and any actual "racial advantages" are either completly nonexistent or only so infentesimal as to be irrelevant. I'm great but its not because I'm a man or a Scottish Canadian but because of my individual choices and personality
An enraged
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

?

Erasmus

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2006, 08:13:36 PM »
I must admit, I basically knew that that conception of racism (i.e., superiority) is what you were referring to, but I saw an opportunity to Make a Point.

I'll have a look around the neighborhood libraries for this book you recommend.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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bullhorn

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2006, 06:17:16 PM »
Race doesent exist in regard to humans so your post is not valid.

Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2006, 06:49:03 PM »
Quote from: "bullhorn"
Race doesent exist in regard to humans so your post is not valid.

The last time I looked, race really, really did seem to exist, and is all too present: how on earth do you think that it doesn't? I've suffered racial prejudice a number of times; what the hell are you talking about?

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Erasmus

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2006, 07:02:37 PM »
Quote from: "bullhorn"
Race doesent exist in regard to humans so your post is not valid.


See what I'm talking about??  SEE?!?!?!?

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2006, 07:07:07 PM »
Yes, I do, although I've known this for a while. Bullhorn, are you the biggest troll the internet has ever known, or what? Race doesn't exist? Please. Oh, and the world's flat.

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Cinlef

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2006, 12:20:28 PM »
One begins to hope he is a troll since otherwise he's more or less the embodiment of irrationality. Like an ignorant sophist tripping on acid.
An enraged
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2006, 12:27:47 PM »
That's almost poetic, Cinlef: perhaps your muse is tickling you.

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Cinlef

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2006, 12:29:50 PM »
Heheheh 8-)
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2006, 06:53:29 PM »
That there are differences, cultural differences, also translated into different skills, is quite evident. But my question is if the differences are lerned, I mean, because of the upbringing, education, environment, etc. or if there are genetic differences. It is also evident that there are genetic differences regarding to skin color, eyes, tallness, but there are also differences about brain?

This is my question and I don't know the answer.
Is there any serious study about that?

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Erasmus

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2006, 12:20:03 AM »
Javier: such studies are often done, but they are always highly controversial.  It is usually claimed that the studies are not properly controlled, or that they reflect the expectations of the experiments' designers.  While this may well be true (since distinguishing nature from nurture is one of the hardest problems in behavioral psychology), I feel that very often the opponents of the studies are only reflecting their *own* prejudices, and have not really examined the details of the experiment.

If you are interested in this problem, I suggest you seek what has been written about "Nature vs. nurture", which is the usual catch phrase for the question.  I'm sure there is a ton of "nurture" literature.  For some "nature" literature by a very respected cognitive scientist, read "The Blank Slate" by Steven Pinker (or maybe Stephen Pinker) from MIT.

I have already posted my personal opinions on this matter earlier in this thread.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2006, 03:41:07 AM »
Thanks Erasmus. I'll search about that.

I think that it could be easy to find some childs from countries in Africa or somewhere else, I mean, with family history of very poor development, and adopted by well positioned families in other countries, giving them education and so, and see what happened.

The hard part is to find the opposite, childs born from families in good situation, cases that one would expect to have studies and so, but nurtured in a degraded environment.

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Erasmus

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2006, 04:24:06 PM »
Quote from: "Javier"
I think that it could be easy to find some childs from countries in Africa or somewhere else, I mean, with family history of very poor development, and adopted by well positioned families in other countries, giving them education and so, and see what happened.


This has happened!  Many well-known early abolitionist writers, considered quite brilliant by their peers, were African slaves educated and freed by their owners.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Setting the Record Straight on Darwin and Race
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2006, 07:22:46 PM »
the

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bullhorn

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2006, 08:08:36 AM »
DY, Understand that I really dont care what you have to say.  You come here as a rasist trying to pretend that you actually are not.  The holocaust happened. END OF STORY. There is no debate, it should not be debated. Dont ever address me again, Do you understand my simple instructions.

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bullhorn

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2006, 08:09:31 AM »
Dont address me again you rasist pig.

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pspunit

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Re: Setting the Record Straight on Darwin and Race
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2006, 09:25:58 AM »
Quote from: "Dionysios"
awful  disasters brought upon humanity (like world wars and genocides) which are the effects of flawed philosophies like evolution (the cause)


How does an idea like evolution cause wars and genocide? Please explain this to me.

Quote from:  "Dionysios"
I do not mean by this to go to the extreme and sound like John C. Calhoun (the South Carolina senator and patriarch of the confederates who advocated the spread of slavery to the western american states and who was in fact in the service of the New England puritan August Belmont, the Rothschild's chief agent in antebellum america - all this was at a time when ideologies like Darwins were extremely popular in certain circles)


I think by this, you are trying to imply that all people that believe in evolution are racist. Is that right?
Three people of different nationalities walk into the bar. Two of them say something smart, and the third one makes a mockery of his fellow countrymen by acting dumb."

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Cinlef

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Are Some Races Genetically Superior At Some Things?
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2006, 12:33:26 PM »
HOLD EVERYTHING
Dionysios did mena to say that people who believe in evolution (viz that all human being came from the same ancestors and that all the superficial differences in appearance are the result of responce to enviromental conditions)
ARE MORE RASCIST
than people who believe that races of men were divinly ordered b Goids will at creation.
Because if so thats idiotic.
I'm not saying that EVOLUTION if misunderstood and/or misinterpreted cannot be used to justify rascism it can be but thats true of any theory if your a)rascist enought and b)have the ingenuity
However believing that different races are results of divine will and not just in the sense that everything is the product of divine will but in the sense that God created different races of man to excel at different things is INHERENTLY RACIST. It's stating not what evolution is (that basically all men are equal and at a genetic level practicaly the same) or what all mainstream religions teach (all humans are created and are equal in the eyes of God) but that some races are better and some are worse. See the thing s with evolution/mainstream religions its about people for example I m a clever popular tolerant democratic guy not because I'm Scottish Canadian and not because of my innate genetic gifts or my upbringing but becuase of how I choose to use all of those things. Orther then my choices the difference between me and someone who had all the same oppertunities I did but had a different skin colour is nil. Race does exists but its irrelevant every person regardless of race is equal and should be judged based on their descisions.Something a belief in divinly ordered race precludes
An enraged
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom