Question for the Round Earthers

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Question for the Round Earthers
« on: January 19, 2006, 02:56:25 PM »
I just want to clear something up.  In your world, the Sun exerts a greater gravitational pull on the Earth than the Moon does, thus, we revolve around the Sun.  Correct?

Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2006, 03:04:44 PM »
keep going....

Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2006, 03:38:50 PM »
Keep going where?  I'm just asking a question.  You keep asking us questions.

Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2006, 03:42:06 PM »
keep going means "yes, and..."

Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2006, 04:17:32 PM »
Quote from: "pablo"
keep going means "yes, and..."


Then why, if the sun exerts a greater gravitational pull, is the Moon's gravity what dictates the tides, and not the Sun's?  The Sun has a greater pull on land, but the Moon does on water?  That isn't very intuitive.

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bullhorn

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Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2006, 04:32:42 PM »
They will now throw some "Scientific Argument" your way.

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Cinlef

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Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2006, 04:36:03 PM »
Your logic is flawless and would totally destroy the round earth theory if you had not omitted a fairly vital point.
The Moon is significantly closer to the earth than the Sun thousands of times closer in fact. This means while the moons gravity is less than that of the sun its also closer and therefore does exert itself on the tides. Thats the basic idea however poorly explained
Say how do falt earthers explain tides anyway?
An enraged
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2006, 04:46:11 PM »
Quote from: "Hardhead"
Quote from: "pablo"
keep going means "yes, and..."


Then why, if the sun exerts a greater gravitational pull, is the Moon's gravity what dictates the tides, and not the Sun's?  The Sun has a greater pull on land, but the Moon does on water?  That isn't very intuitive.


No one said that the sun didn't have any effect on the tides... It actually ahs alot to do with it... When you have a full moon or a new moon, that's to say when the earth, the sun and the moon form a line, you get the strongest tides... whereas when the moon is at the first and 3rd quarter, when the moon and the sun are at a right angle, you get the weakest tides.

Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2006, 04:47:51 PM »
Quote from: "Cinlef"
Your logic is flawless and would totally destroy the round earth theory if you had not omitted a fairly vital point.
The Moon is significantly closer to the earth than the Sun thousands of times closer in fact. This means while the moons gravity is less than that of the sun its also closer and therefore does exert itself on the tides. Thats the basic idea however poorly explained
Say how do falt earthers explain tides anyway?
An enraged
Cinlef


I didn't leave that out.  Look at my original post.

Quote
In your world, the Sun exerts a greater gravitational pull on the Earth than the Moon does, thus, we revolve around the Sun. Correct?


While I'm aware that you believe the Sun to be much more massive but far away, my questoin regarded the final amount of pull.  

But, OK... if the Moon exerts a greater pull (due to much less distance), then why do we revolve around the Sun and not the Moon?

Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2006, 04:54:09 PM »
Quote from: "Hardhead"
Quote from: "Cinlef"
Your logic is flawless and would totally destroy the round earth theory if you had not omitted a fairly vital point.
The Moon is significantly closer to the earth than the Sun thousands of times closer in fact. This means while the moons gravity is less than that of the sun its also closer and therefore does exert itself on the tides. Thats the basic idea however poorly explained
Say how do falt earthers explain tides anyway?
An enraged
Cinlef


I didn't leave that out.  Look at my original post.

Quote
In your world, the Sun exerts a greater gravitational pull on the Earth than the Moon does, thus, we revolve around the Sun. Correct?


While I'm aware that you believe the Sun to be much more massive but far away, my questoin regarded the final amount of pull.  

But, OK... if the Moon exerts a greater pull (due to much less distance), then why do we revolve around the Sun and not the Moon?


The earth is bigger than the moon, the sun is bigger than the earth, and because the moon is close enough to the earth it is subjected to the earth's gravity which is in turn subjected to the sun's... that's to say that the moon is also subjeted to the sun's gravital pull, it just happen's to also be stuck in orbit around the earth.

Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2006, 04:55:48 PM »
But we're being pulled around the Sun, not the Moon.  So that would certainly imply that it has the greater gravitational pull.  Yet, the tides are influenced by the Moon....

Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2006, 05:07:32 PM »
Quote from: "Hardhead"
But we're being pulled around the Sun, not the Moon.  So that would certainly imply that it has the greater gravitational pull.  Yet, the tides are influenced by the Moon....


We are not actually pulled around the sun. We are simply stuck in orbit around it, and when compared, the moon's gravitational pull is twice as powerful as the sun's because it's much closer.

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6strings

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Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2006, 05:32:53 PM »
Interesting fact; there are two high tides every day.
One of them is caused by the moon, another is caused by the sun, because, you're right, the sun does exert a gravitational pull on the earth.

Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2006, 05:40:41 PM »
Ummmm...

OK, it looks like I'm going to have to explain the general RE postion to the Round Earthers.  Oh, the irony.

Yes, there are two tides per day.  One, when the moon is directly overhead.  The other, when it is on the opposite side of the Earth (on a Roundworld).

If the Sun caused a high tide, there would be one at Noon every day.

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6strings

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Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2006, 05:41:41 PM »
Ouch.  Touche.

Actually, I think the actual reason the moon controls the tides, rather than the sun is because the moon is, as Cinlef stated, significantly closer to the earth, and, while it isn't close enough to pull the earth towards it, it has enough force to pull some of the water towards it.

Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2006, 06:20:01 PM »
[Edited] I will leave the original post intact, but I posted wrong information here, please read my new post below [/Edited]

In fact the moon exert to the earth a greater gravitational force than the sun, and from the moon reference frame, the earth is revolving around the moon.
From an external reference frame, such as the point of view from the sun, it is more apparent to see that the moon is the one revolving around the earth, whiles the earth only totter (this is because the earth is more massive than the moon). But in fact, the two are revolving around the other one.

Then the two together revolve around the sun, even when the gravitational force is less, because they already have compesated their gravitational forces revolving around each other.

The same happens to the sun, it totter a litle bit because of the gravitational forces of the planets.

Here you have an explanation of the tides: http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT307/HTML/AT30706.HTM[/b]

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Erasmus

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Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2006, 07:50:58 PM »
Since the moon/Earth system is rotational, it is a non-inertial reference frame.  This means that it does make more sense to say (in this case) that it is the moon rotating around the Earth, and not vice versa.  We can tell where the center of the rotating system is.

For instance, we could measure the centripetal acceleration of the Earth, and use that to calculate the distance between the center of the Earth and the center of rotation.  I believe we will find it to be less than the radius of a round Earth.  Presumably, in a flat-Earth model, this center will be much closer to the Earth than it is to the moon.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2006, 03:41:03 AM »
You're right Erasmus, but..

Consider two planets of an hypothetical solar system, two planets in the same orbit and pretty close to the other, revolving one around the other one.

Question: Wich one will revolve?
Answer: the two. They will be revolving at the same time around the other one.
Do you agree with that?
OK

But do the two planets have exactly the same mass?
I guess not (there always be a difference, at least small, but they won't be equal in mass.

But then, should the smaller planet revolve around the greatter one?
Yes, and no. We still could see the two planets revolving around the other one.

But now consider that the two planets have different masses, one bigger and one smaller.
What would we see? We'll see the smaller one revolving, and the greater one tottering.
But it is the same effect amplified. We can see it as the two planets revolving, or one revolving and the greater one just tottering.

The same case is for the earth-moon system, but in this case the moon has far less mass than the earth.

Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2006, 05:31:21 AM »
Hrm.  OK, it still seems somewhat counterintuitive to me, but I think I understand your system.

Now, in your system, the center of the Moon/Earth rotation is somewhere below the surface (but not at the exact center).  The center of the Sun/Earth rotation is certainly inside the Sun.  

So... it would still, to me at least, seem that that must mean the Sun is exerting a stronger gravitational pull than the Moon, since it is what curves the Earth's path through space.

Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2006, 08:20:02 AM »
Quote from: "Hardhead"
So... it would still, to me at least, seem that that must mean the Sun is exerting a stronger gravitational pull than the Moon, since it is what curves the Earth's path through space.


In fact, the moon curves the earth space more than the sun does, but when the earth begin to move a little bit to revolve around the moon, then moon already changed the position to the other side of the earth, so the effect is compensated (and the earth only totter because of the gravitational field of the moon).
That's why the earth can follow the path around the sun, even when the gravity of the sun curves the space less.

And I don't know where the center of the rotation moon-earth is, if inside the earth or outside it, but of course it is much more closer to the center of the earth than the center of the moon.

The same for the sun-earth system, but it is more complicated because there are other planets in the system.

Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2006, 06:07:08 AM »
I have posted:
Quote
In fact the moon exert to the earth a greater gravitational force than the sun

It is wrong.

The sun exert a greater gravitational force to the earth than the moon (about 179 times bigger), but the explanation of why the tidal influence of the moon is greater than the one of the sun is another one.

It is related of the radious of the earth and the distance to the moon. It is a bit complex, so you can read about tidal forces here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tide#Tidal_physics
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/time/tides.html
http://140.90.121.76/restles1.html

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fb

Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2006, 11:20:34 AM »
Quote from: "Hardhead"
Quote from: "pablo"
keep going means "yes, and..."


Then why, if the sun exerts a greater gravitational pull, is the Moon's gravity what dictates the tides, and not the Sun's?  The Sun has a greater pull on land, but the Moon does on water?  That isn't very intuitive.



Well, the round earthers say that
(1) The tides doi not depend on the gravitys pull, but on its derivative;
(2) For the moon, that derivative value is about 2 or 3 times that for the sun, even though the force is larger for the sun;
(3) There are tides also for the soil and the air, but these are usually not noted; though they can be measured.

I have this form a text that is more on the side of the hollow earth
(with pictures and discussions of the hollow earth on pages 55, 56, 458 and 459: http://www.motionmountain.net .)

But to flat earthers believe in a finite size or an infinite size earth?

Felix

Question for the Round Earthers
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2006, 01:19:11 PM »
The reason taht we orbit the sun and not the moon is all based on one of Newton's laws of gravity. I can't remember the exact figures myself, but it proves that gravity gets stronger the further away it is - thus the sun has a huge gravitational effect due to being further away than the moon. But this effect isn't centred on the earth - it's centred on a point between the earth and sun based on their respective sizes (which happens, due to the sun's size, to be somewhere under the solar surface).

Although the moons gravity can pull the earth's tides (which the sun, to a lesser extent, also does, which is why we get tides on both sides of the earth at the same time) the sun's distance means we orbit around a point that isn't the sun's core (but near it due to the sun's size.

Newton's law is explained far better here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newtons_Laws_of_Gravity#Newton.27s_law_of_universal_gravitation

Whilst it could be argued that Newton's law is fabricated, this sort of conjecture is pointless (we might as well say that nothing exists apart from ourselves (we must exist due to 'cogito, ergo sum' or 'I think therfore I am')).