Sunsets/Sunrises?

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Erasmus

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Sunsets/Sunrises?
« on: January 15, 2006, 01:57:25 PM »
In my earnest desire to comprehend flat-Earth cosmology, I must ask, "Am I right in thinking that in flat-Earth cosmology, the following things are both claimed:

a) The sun revolves around a line intersecting the north pole (which is at the center of the disc of the Earth) perpendicularly;

and

b) The sun remains above the disc of the Earth, and never intersects the plane in which the disc of the Earth lies.

And if the answer to this question is "yes", then why do we see sunrises and sunsets?

If the answer is "no", please specify in which claim(s) (a or b) my understanding is flawed.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2006, 04:37:27 PM »
The answer is the same as for why boats disappear over the horizon. The sun and moon are actually secretly submarines. When the sun has gone far enough out into the ocean, it begins to descend, eventually going completely  underwater. It then travels underwater until it is far enough away that the coast will not be affected by its light and then rises, giving the effect of a sunrise. It repeats once it hits the other ocean.

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Erasmus

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Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2006, 05:05:57 PM »
So, you're then saying that my statement (b) is incorrect?  That the sun does not simply revolve around the axis that goes through the north pole?

Problem 1: Everybody agrees that the sun sets in the west, or clockwise direction.  This was explained in flat-Earth cosmology by saying that the sun rotates around an axis from east to west, and that not everybody could see the sun at the same time for some other reason.  But now, the sun only sets in the west if you happen to be in one half of the disc.  In the other half, it will set in the east.

Imagine looking down on the disc.  Draw a curve on the disc through all the points that the sun is directly overhead during a given day.  To an observer on the disc above this curve, the sun appears to set in the east.

Problem 2: So, there are certain times in every 24-hour period in which nobody sees the sun?  This disagrees with some people's (not mine, though) observations.

Problem 3: Is the sun hot?  If so, is it hot enough to make the oceans boil when it goes underwater?  If not, why don't the oceans extinguish it, like a candle?  If the sun cannot be extinguished by immersion in cold water, then is it not in fact a gas at all?  How does the sun work?   If it is a ball of gas, then what is it that makes it able to sink in water?  For that matter, what makes it move across the sky at all?

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Cinlef

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Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2006, 06:01:26 PM »
Okay alex you know whats not a get out of explanation free card? CLaimning things are secretly submarines. Boats could have worked if people on the site hadn't actually been on or sseen boats before/during their voyages but now the sun and moon. What the hell? Thats just lazy I mean you want to defend this theory try to think up an at least remotly approaching plausible theory without such obvious holes as the fact if the sun was secretly submerging into the ocean the oceans heat would rize dramatically and in fact start to boil something it doesn't in fact do. Even bullhorn has higher intellectual standards than that and thats saying lots
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Cinlef
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Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2006, 09:19:25 PM »
well your idea of an orbiting earth around the sun sounds stupid to us too

see, your problem is that when given facts, you choose not to believe them, and disregard them saying they're "stupid" just because they disagree with what you've been brainwashed to think

Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2006, 04:59:17 PM »
I have evidence of my claim! As you can see from this footage, the Sun pauses for an instant while the submarine expands around it, then proceeds to sink into the ocean.


Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2006, 02:08:28 PM »
why doesnt the sky go dark?  ^

Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2006, 02:16:52 PM »
it's interesting to point out that different parts of the world have different seasons, which is explained pretty easy when having a round earth, but i just don't understand how it would happen with a flat earth.

also there are some parts of the world that are completely dark 24 hours a day for a number of weeks.  I've been to the Yukon and it happened and, although it was very cold, it was a site to see for sure.

can anyone explain how seasons change and the 24/hr/day for the flat earth idea?

Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2006, 05:01:14 PM »
Quote from: "putthepinback"
why doesnt the sky go dark?  ^
I don't have THAT much free time... well... I do, but I'm just lazy. Quite frankly, if you're dumb enough to believe that, then you're not exactly the kind of keen observer that would notice such details.

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Cinlef

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Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2006, 05:29:23 PM »
Quote from: "navak37"
well your idea of an orbiting earth around the sun sounds stupid to us too

see, your problem is that when given facts, you choose not to believe them, and disregard them saying they're "stupid" just because they disagree with what you've been brainwashed to think


Yet I can explain mine with logical argumetns something your side in general and you especially have never remotly been able to do. You navak and your side have never presented facts, the best of them (not you by the way) have explained facts in a falt earth model making it just as valid as a round earth model. none of that disproves the roundness of the earth. None of them have been able to find something the round earth model cannot explain. SO novak I dont diseregard things because I've been brainwashed I ignroe them because they haven't been proven. It's you who ignore logical chains of reasoning that dont fit your views.
In conclusion unless you have something productive to add to the disscussion jst shut up please
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Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

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Erasmus

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Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2006, 12:18:56 AM »
Quote
can anyone explain how seasons change


Well, I'm sure there's already a flat-Earth explanation, but there may be more mechanisms than those mentioned.  One of the most important factors in local weather is ocean currents.  The currents are fairly constant, as are the winds that blow over the ocean.  So, say you live in California.  Your weather is strongly influenced by the water temperature in the Pacific.  In fact, the Jet stream carries warm or cool air from the Pacific all the way across North America.  So if the water's warm for long periods of time, you have summer; if cool, you have winter.  Different parts of the world would have different weather patterns because the relevant ocean currents change temperature.

Now the seasons change throughout the year because there's only so much warm water in the oceans.  During the summer, the inner (northern) half of the disc has most of the warm water, and during the winter, it's mostly around the outer (southern) half.  It flows around with the currents in a regular fashion.

Here's another suggestion that may be justifiable: perhaps the diameter of the sun's orbit changes throughout the year.  Bigger in the winter, and smaller in the summer.  Thus in the summer it spends more time near the hub (aka North Pole) which is why we have longer days in the summer.  During the winter, it spends more time near the rim, so the South has the longer, warmer days.  Furthermore, the sun melts some of the rim wall, which flows into the ocean and builds up throughout the southern summer.  By the end of summer, there's enough cold water in the south to push them back into winter; the water refreezes, etc.  It's a vicious cycle.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Re: Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2006, 02:46:17 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
In my earnest desire to comprehend flat-Earth cosmology, I must ask, "Am I right in thinking that in flat-Earth cosmology, the following things are both claimed:

a) The sun revolves around a line intersecting the north pole (which is at the center of the disc of the Earth) perpendicularly;


If that were true, the sun would rise and set in the North Pole.

No, the sun obviously moves around the Earth, over the Equator.



Quote
b) The sun remains above the disc of the Earth, and never intersects the plane in which the disc of the Earth lies.


Correct.  It is always above the equator somewhere.


Quote
And if the answer to this question is "yes", then why do we see sunrises and sunsets?


Well, obviously, the sun appears at a grater angle when it's not over you.

View this kick-ass graphic I just made using Photoshop.




Soak it in... Does my Photoshop abilities astound you?  Well, they shouldn't. :p  Anyway, now, the sun is going to look a lot lower in the sky to someone in the right side of my simplified map.  To those on the left, though, it looks noonish.

Of course, that doesn't explain actual setting.  The answer is simple: gravity.

Yup.  Gravity pulls everythign down, including light, right?  Right.  

So my explanation is really simple when you think about it.

Now, I'm going to add some more stuff to my crappy picture.  But it will BLOW YOUR MIND!



Is your mind blown yet?  No?  I guess I need to work on my Photoshoping.  Please remember it isn't even remotely to scale.  Or anything.  Just a helpful illustration.  Anyway, light (represented here by crudely drawn yellow lines) is pulled down by gravity.  In fact, this same effect is what causes our blue sky (it affects different wavelenghts differently, dispersing the blue light in the atmoshpere.  It's also the reason you see a lot redder sunsets - that light has traveled through more atomoshpere, so all the smaller wavelenghts have been diffused, leaving red - the longest visible wavelength - predominant).  Anyway, I'm getting off track.

Light coming from the sun is hurled out like a baseball, and it can only travel so far before it must land.  People outside of the zone that can see the sun's light get night time, since the light couldn't travel that far.  On my crappy drawing, people right of point A are expereincing the night.

But still, you say, how does the sun set?  You havnen't answered that one yet!  Quit dodging the question!  To which I respond:  Hey!  Rhetorical voices shouldn't be so rude.  Sit down, I'm about to explain it.

Here's the deal: imagine you're standing at Point A, and the sun is slowly moving to the left.  The rays of light eminating from the lower altitude portions of the sun can't reach you, but the ones juuuuust from the top can.  As the sun moves further away to other parts of the Earth (here represented by moving to the left), you can see less and less, until you can only see the tippy top... and then it disappears too!  Viola, sunset!

Of course, for a sunrise, it's just reversed.  You see the top first, as the sun gets closer, until eventually all the rays of light, revealing the sun from the top down, for a sunrise.

Quote
If the answer is "no", please specify in which claim(s) (a or b) my understanding is flawed.


There ya go!

Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2006, 03:03:59 PM »
right... light gets pulled down by the earth's gravity cause it's such a heavy matter...

Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2006, 03:06:38 PM »
Quote from: "pablo"
right... light gets pulled down by the earth's gravity cause it's such a heavy matter...


And I thought the Round Earthers were complaining about flat earthers lack of insightful replies.  That's why I started posting!

Light is affected by gravity.  That's a basic fact that everyone believes in.  It's the main tenant behind Black Holes*, you know.


*: Not that I'm saying I believe in those either, but hey.  They could exist.

Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2006, 03:12:42 PM »
Quote from: "Hardhead"
Quote from: "pablo"
right... light gets pulled down by the earth's gravity cause it's such a heavy matter...


And I thought the Round Earthers were complaining about flat earthers lack of insightful replies.  That's why I started posting!

Light is affected by gravity.  That's a basic fact that everyone believes in.  It's the main tenant behind Black Holes*, you know.


*: Not that I'm saying I believe in those either, but hey.  They could exist.


That's why I specified earth's gravity moron... you're comparing the gravity pull of a blackhole to that of the earth... if the earth's gravity was enough to pull out all light beyond a portion of it's surface, there'd be no light beyond the planet...

Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2006, 03:34:33 PM »
Quote from: "pablo"
That's why I specified earth's gravity moron... you're comparing the gravity pull of a blackhole to that of the earth... if the earth's gravity was enough to pull out all light beyond a portion of it's surface, there'd be no light beyond the planet...


Due to the name calling, this is the last time I will respond to one of your posts.  However, (1) the light coming from the top of the sun in my crappy drawing could well escape Earth's gravity.  (2) Since I don't believe there have ever been non-doctored space photos, maybe the light of our sun doesn't reach into space.

Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2006, 03:43:17 PM »
so the moon is lit by...

Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2006, 04:50:27 PM »
Quote from: "pablo"
so the moon is lit by...


Quote from: "I"
Due to the name calling, this is the last time I will respond to one of your posts.


You could also apologize and promise a civil discussion from here on.

Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2006, 04:56:25 PM »
Quote from: "Hardhead"
Quote from: "pablo"
so the moon is lit by...


Quote from: "I"
Due to the name calling, this is the last time I will respond to one of your posts.


You could also apologize and promise a civil discussion from here on.


 i stand by my name-calling...

Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2006, 04:59:00 PM »
Fair enough.

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Erasmus

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Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2006, 07:57:58 PM »
Quote from: "pablo"
so the moon is lit by...


See my discussion of the lamps that the U.S.S.R. attached to the underside of the dome of the sky, on the spot where the moon is, in order to create the illusion of moon phases.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Erasmus

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Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2006, 08:39:00 PM »
Hardhead: if your gravity-pulling-light theory were correct, then we would see something other than what we do see.

The diagram below shows several light rays coming out of the sun and falling along parabolic arcs (everything falls along parabolic arcs).  The arcs you see are identical; they simply start from different places on the surface of the sun.  Now, imagine standing at the magenta tick mark on the ground.  The sun is moving to the left, away from you.  As the various arcs pass, different parts of the sun suddenly become too far for you to see, because light from them never makes it to you.  The order in which the parts of the sun disappear is given in the diagram: first the bottom, then the frontal bottom, then the top (???), then the front, then the frontal top.

This contradicts how we see sunsets: the sun disappears from bottom to top pretty linearly.



I created this image by making a single parabola, copying it, and cutting off whatever stuck below the ground; just in case you don't believe those are all the same curve, you can get the same result easily.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2006, 05:46:14 AM »
But, there's less gravity at the top of the sun.  Therefore, the rays of light wouldn't be pulled down as quickly as those at the bottom of the sun, giving a more even distribution of light, and making the top of the sun disappear last.

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Erasmus

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Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2006, 12:55:11 PM »
If gravity is so much stronger at the bottom of the sun, then it would appear redder than the top of the sun, due to the doppler effect.  Also, if the rays weren't parallel, then the sun wouldn't appear circular.

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2006, 05:13:15 PM »
Concerning the light pulled down by gravity theory?

I thought gravity didnt exist that it was the earth speeding through the sky  that made us fall?

As amazing as your photoshop skillz are the theory doesnt explain why it isnt light at all points *acroos*(around) the earth at once.

Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2006, 01:19:59 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"

Now the seasons change throughout the year because there's only so much warm water in the oceans.  During the summer, the inner (northern) half of the disc has most of the warm water, and during the winter, it's mostly around the outer (southern) half.  It flows around with the currents in a regular fashion.

Here's another suggestion that may be justifiable: perhaps the diameter of the sun's orbit changes throughout the year.  Bigger in the winter, and smaller in the summer.  Thus in the summer it spends more time near the hub (aka North Pole) which is why we have longer days in the summer.  During the winter, it spends more time near the rim, so the South has the longer, warmer days.  Furthermore, the sun melts some of the rim wall, which flows into the ocean and builds up throughout the southern summer.  By the end of summer, there's enough cold water in the south to push them back into winter; the water refreezes, etc.  It's a vicious cycle.

-Erasmus


Dood, it seems like you are accepting some of modern science and rejecting others - such as climatology and meterology (which is inextricably intertwined with geology and geography).  Popperians should be horrifed at this (me 2).  

Furthermore the sun's strange orbit suggestions by you clearly throws out the window newtonian physics (or if you enjoy solving higher maths relativistic physics) and kepler's laws on orbits.

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Erasmus

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Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2006, 09:08:43 PM »
Newton and Kelper were in on the lie!  And probably this Popper fellow too, with his haughty-taughty attitude about what I can and can't do with science.  Is this a free country, or an intellectual dictatorship!?

-Erasmus
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Sunsets/Sunrises?
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2006, 05:15:08 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Newton and Kelper were in on the lie!  And probably this Popper fellow too, with his haughty-taughty attitude about what I can and can't do with science.  Is this a free country, or an intellectual dictatorship!?

-Erasmus


Dood, you're welcome to provide a counter thesis against newton & kepler's work. (just a question how do you know newton and kepler were in on the lie?) they lived in 2 parts of the world and were separated by around 100 years.  

furthermore Popper does not have a haugty-taughty attitude about science  - he suggested a "philosophy" a model of science and the vast majority of scientists since the 1930s always talk about Popper's criterions for a good science.  falsifiablility, testibility, verisimilittude etc.

If you like Thomas Kuhn's Paradigms of "Scientific Research" 1960s is perhaps the 2nd most popular model for science (NB Kuhn and Popper's version of science do not fit well together).  

And if you are able to be on this msg board you are in a free country espousing the standard "Enlightenment Age" dogma.  where else will they accept this level of lunacy?  China most definitely has banned this website