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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth

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LucidObscurity

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« on: February 16, 2007, 04:07:39 PM »
I was in a discussion with Tom Bishop on a thread called "new" however I was on to something so the admin locked the thread.  Here's the rundown of the discussion:

LucidObscurity:

based on an accelleration of 32 feet per second per second, with the speed of light being approx. 186,282.397 miles per second (983,571,056.16 fps) the speed of light would be reached in approx. 356 days.

983,571,056.16 / 32 = 30,736,595.505

convert to minutes:

30,736,595.505 / 60 = 512,276.59175

convert to hours:

512,276.59175 / 60 = 8,537.9431958333333333333333333333

convert to days:

8,537.9431958333333333333333333333 / 24 = 355.74763315972222222222222222222

So if we are accellerating at 32 fps/s then we have long exceeded the universal speed limit.

LucidObscurity:

Oh, and BTW, once we reached the speed of light, we would be frozen in time since travelling through the first 3 dimensions at the speed of light means you are at a standstill in the 4th dimension.

Tom Bishop:

Uh, ever hear of Relativity? The earth would continue to approach the speed of light, without reaching it.

LucidObscurity:

So you're saying this flat Earth we live on has near infinite mass as well do all its inhabitants whom are moving at the same speed.

Tom Bishop:

Yes, and we're all gaining mass every moment of the day.

Don't you ever wonder why women always think they're getting fatter?

LucidObscurity: (this is what i would have posted if not for the thread being locked)

So being that it takes near infinite energy to modify the momentum of or otherwise move an object of near infinite mass then how is that I can stand up, walk or toss my buddy “YL Groper” another beer?
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EnragedPenguin

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2007, 04:09:58 PM »
Quote from: "The FAQ"
Q: "Doesn't this mean we'd be traveling faster than the speed of light, which is impossible?"

A: No, here is a detailed explanation.
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LucidObscurity

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2007, 04:15:36 PM »
You are correct.  It is impossible for anything with mass to travel the speed of light because at the speed of light the mass of the object would be infinite and therefore would take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate it futher.  Likewise as you approach the speed of light your mass approaches infinity. So being that at the accelleration of gravity the Earth and everything on it would approach the speed of light in about 356 days, all mass on Earth would be near infinite and thus changing the momentum of anything on Earth would take near infinite energy, which I'm pretty sure my muscles are not capable of producing.

So simply waving your arm in the air negates the possiblilty that we are approaching the speed of light, unless that is you are willing to accept that humans are capable of producing near infinite energy.
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EnragedPenguin

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2007, 04:19:18 PM »
Quote from: "LucidObscurity"
So being that at the accelleration of gravity the Earth and everything on it would approach the speed of light in about 356 days, all mass on Earth would be near infinite and thus changing the momentum of anything on Earth would take near infinite energy, which I'm pretty sure my muscles are not capable of producing.


Mass increase due to approaching c is relative. Earth's mass and the mass of everything on it remains constant from any frame of reference where Earth is not approaching c
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Pyrochimp

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2007, 04:19:39 PM »
relativity
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Mathematical proof of the flat Earth:
[{(Diameter of Earth)*(tan[distance from Earth to sun/distance from North pole to equator])}2]/0
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LucidObscurity

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2007, 04:39:41 PM »
OK, mass is relative, but there still needs to be an explaination for the near infinite amount of energy required to maintain the accelleration of the Earth at near light speed.
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GeoGuy

Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2007, 04:41:24 PM »
Earth is not traveling anywhere near lightspeed.
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EnragedPenguin

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2007, 04:43:09 PM »
Quote from: "LucidObscurity"
OK, mass is relative, but there still needs to be an explaination for the near infinite amount of energy required to maintain the accelleration of the Earth at near light speed.


The acceleration is not maintained near lightspeed. From the frame of reference of anyone not accelerating along with Earth, Earth's rate of acceleration will be constantly decreasing.
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DrunkardRP

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2007, 04:46:10 PM »
Quote from: "LucidObscurity"
OK, mass is relative, but there still needs to be an explaination for the near infinite amount of energy required to maintain the accelleration of the Earth at near light speed.


Quote from: "The FAQs"
Q: "What's underneath the Earth?" aka "What's on the bottom?" aka "What's on the other side?"

A: This is unknown. Some believe it to be just rocks, others believe the Earth rests on the back of four elephants and a turtle.


Turtle Power I guess.

Anyway... so the Earth is not accelerating, but is moving at a constant speed of 9.8 m/s?
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GeoGuy

Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2007, 04:46:49 PM »
No, Earth is accelerating.
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YL Groper

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Re: Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2007, 04:51:06 PM »
Quote from: "LucidObscurity"

So being that it takes near infinite energy to modify the momentum of or otherwise move an object of near infinite mass then how is that I can stand up, walk or toss my buddy “YL Groper” another beer?



Without beer I would be an angerly accelerated Groper
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DrunkardRP

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2007, 04:52:03 PM »
ok, so it is accelerating. at the speed of 9.8 m/s?
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myeyesareround

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2007, 04:52:13 PM »
Quote from: "GeoGuy"
No, Earth is accelerating.

so how do we not fly off if we dont have gravity? OOOOOOOOP GOT YOU NOW
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GeoGuy

Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2007, 04:52:42 PM »
No. It is accelerating at a rate of 9.8m/s^2
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Pablo the Incredible

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2007, 04:58:47 PM »
Quote
No. It is accelerating at a rate of 9.8m/s^2


If Earth is accelerating, and the key word here is ACCELERATING, we would eventually reach close to the speed of light. We cannot attain light speed because general relativity forbids it. The Earth's mass would become narly infinite. If what some people claim is true, and I am referring to the belief here that the earth is slowing down, we would be flung into space. If the deceleration was slow enough to NOT throw everthing into space, once it stopped, there would be no "gravity" without this, the next step you took would be your last because the force exerted on the ground would propel you up, and up, and up.
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myeyesareround

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2007, 05:00:03 PM »
Quote from: "Pablo the Incredible"
Quote
No. It is accelerating at a rate of 9.8m/s^2


If Earth is accelerating, and the key word here is ACCELERATING, we would eventually reach close to the speed of light. We cannot attain light speed because general relativity forbids it. The Earth's mass would become narly infinite. If what some people claim is true, and I am referring to the belief here that the earth is slowing down, we would be flung into space. If the deceleration was slow enough to NOT throw everthing into space, once it stopped, there would be no "gravity" without this, the next step you took would be your last because the force exerted on the ground would propel you up, and up, and up.

these people are full of shit because they didnt realize that, but of course the govt has a nifty time machine that will transport us all back to the year -00000000000000000000000000000000000000000.01bc where all things were good when sophicles was molesting little kids and bunnies were free to roam the pastures of the sky. right... :roll:
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Pyrochimp

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2007, 05:00:49 PM »
Relativity also states that acceleration is only relevant if you're outside the reference frame of the accelerating object.  To us, the Earth isn't going the speed of light.
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Mathematical proof of the flat Earth:
[{(Diameter of Earth)*(tan[distance from Earth to sun/distance from North pole to equator])}2]/0
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GeoGuy

Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2007, 05:03:21 PM »
Quote from: "Pablo the Incredible"

If Earth is accelerating, and the key word here is ACCELERATING, we would eventually reach close to the speed of light.

Only to an outside observer in an inertial reference frame. Which is entirely meaningless to us here on Earth.

Quote
The Earth's mass would become narly infinite.

No, Earth's mass would become neither gnarly nor infinite to us here on its surface. Only an outside observer in an inertial reference frame would notice any difference at all.

Quote
If what some people claim is true, and I am referring to the belief here that the earth is slowing down, we would be flung into space.

Earth's rate of acceleration would only appear to slow to an outside observer in an inertial reference frame.

 If the deceleration was slow enough to NOT throw everthing into space, once it stopped, there would be no "gravity" without this, the next step you took would be your last because the force exerted on the ground would propel you up, and up, and up.[/quote]
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DrunkardRP

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2007, 05:03:37 PM »
Ok... so if the Earth is accelerating at the rate of 9.8 m/s^2, then why is it not possible for the Earth to approach the velocity of the speed of light?
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GeoGuy

Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2007, 05:04:52 PM »
Because nothing with mass can reach the speed of light.
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myeyesareround

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2007, 05:06:18 PM »
Quote from: "GeoGuy"
Because nothing with mass can reach the speed of light.

and you've tested this?
oh wait its just a THEORY
K T H X
fuckin a
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GeoGuy

Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2007, 05:07:22 PM »
I admit I haven't tested it at all. I also must admit that I got the theory from some Swiss patent clerk, so it probably has no bearing in reality.
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LucidObscurity

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2007, 05:08:28 PM »
It has been prevously supposed on this thread that the Earth is accellerating upwards at a rate of 32 fps/s.  At this rate we would approach the speed of light in approx. 356 days.  As we approached the speed of light, the energy required to maintain this accelleration would approach levels beyond the total of energy in the universe.  As you stated, from an outside frame of reference we are slowing as we approach the speed of light, but the amount of energy required to get us to this point cannot be dismissed as irrelevent and must have a source.

The energy required to accellerate an object must act on the mass of the object as measured from a stationary reference.  It's just like the fact that you cannot lift youself up by pulling on your own hair.

Also, as the Earth increases in speed and thus mass, the amount of energy required to maintain an accelleration of 32 fps/s is constantly increasing.

This energy must come from somewhere.
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LucidObscurity

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2007, 05:13:09 PM »
And will someone please give YL Groper another beer before he sobers up and starts groping our sisters.
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DrunkardRP

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2007, 05:19:36 PM »
I get what they're trying to say. I guess I'll use a metaphor for what they're trying to say.

Imagine a tall drinking glass.

The top of the glass would represent the speed of light.

Now they're saying that we are accelerating at the rate of 9.8 m/s^2.

For the sake of the metaphor, lets say the rate of the acceleration of the Earth is the rate of water being poured into the glass.  

Now, lets say that there's a hole, just below the top of the glass, and every time reaches this point, water pours out of the glass, and the glass is never reaching "the speed of light".

"Water" is still being "poured" at the rate of 9.8m/s^2, it's just that we never quite get to the top of the glass.

Correct me if I'm wrong on my metaphor.


That is basically their argument on the whole speed of light thing.

Now what LucidObscurity is asking is where the "water" is coming from. What is providing the Acceleration.
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EnragedPenguin

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2007, 05:22:09 PM »
Quote from: "LucidObscurity"
As we approached the speed of light, the energy required to maintain this accelleration would approach levels beyond the total of energy in the universe. As you stated, from an outside frame of reference we are slowing as we approach the speed of light, but the amount of energy required to get us to this point cannot be dismissed as irrelevent and must have a source.

Also, as the Earth increases in speed and thus mass, the amount of energy required to maintain an accelleration of 32 fps/s is constantly increasing.

This energy must come from somewhere.


Earth's rate of acceleration decreases because the amount of energy required to accelerate its increased mass has also increased. Since more energy isn't applied, the rate of acceleration decreases.
None of this matters from our frame of reference howeve, because Earth's mass has never changed from our frame of reference, therefore the energy required to accelerate it has never increased.
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DrunkardRP

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2007, 05:27:33 PM »
He's not asking if the energy required to accelerate is increasing, he's asking where is it coming from. What is making the earth move 9.8m/s^2.
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ceadda

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Just clarify it already...
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2007, 05:27:48 PM »
You know if one of you FE people just explained relativity in ENGLISH rather than just blurting the word out every time someone mentions it, this issue would have been dead long ago!

So here we go, my best effort...

FE theory says the earth is accelerating at 9.8m/s^2. This acceleration rate is being observed by a person who is standing upon the earth, and is experiencing the acceleration.

Here's the big scary word... Relativity. This is why you will not hit the speed of light. Why?

Time. Time is relative.
Huh? What's that mean? I'll tell you with an example.

Lets say your standing on the earth, and it's now reached exactly 90% of the speed of light.  You shine a laser straight up. Since were already moving at 90% of the speed of light and light does not move faster just because the object it's on is moving... the laser shoots up, at only 10% of the speed of light. Oops, I think we'd notice this severe problem with the speed of light getting really, really slow...

It doesnt get really, really slow, because time, is relative. Relative to velocity I mean.  This means the faster you go relative to a stationary object, the slower time passes. So at 90% of the speed of light, time slows down enough to the observers who are traveling that speed, that light moves at it's normal speed.

Since the faster you are traveling, the slower time is passing, the slower time is passing, means the slower you are accelerating.

Second example just to clarify.

Your standing on a train. It's moving at 99.999999% the speed of light. You start running toward the engine as fast as you can. Did you exceed the speed of light? No, of course not. Because time is passing so slowly to you, that your run just got you up to 99.9999991% the speed of light.

Since FE theory has the earth continuously accelerating. Time, under this theory, is continuously slowing. If time is slowing, then the observer continues to see a rate of 9.8m/s^s, even though someone who is off the earth would watch the earth slowing in it's acceleration so that no matter how long it accelerates it's only moving that .000000000000000000000001% closer to the speed of light, and never over.


This concludes my mad and rambling effort to explain what someone should have just explained ages ago.

Now shutup about the speed of light. And stop dropping the word, "relativity" whenever someone asks this question...
 :evil:
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DrunkardRP

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2007, 05:30:22 PM »
Quote from: "DrunkardRP"
He's not asking if the energy required to accelerate is increasing, he's asking where is it coming from. What is making the earth move 9.8m/s^2.
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TheEngineer

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Relativity disproves accellerating Earth
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2007, 05:37:12 PM »
Ok,  first off, velocity does not add linearly in relativistic situations.  It asymptotically approaches the speed of light, without ever reaching it.  Second, to someone on the earth, the acceleration is constant, but to an outside observer, the acceleration will be decreasing, but the velocity still increasing.
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