LUNAR THEORY

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JackBlack

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Re: LUNAR THEORY
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2018, 02:31:29 PM »
A The sun exerts tidal forces on the moon which affects its orbit.
Irrelevant, even if it were true!
Really? So rather than focus on possibilities you just dismiss it as irrelevant, and then wonder what the problem is?

If you wish to claim it is irrelevant, prove it.
You are the one trying to assert there is a problem, as such, the burden of proof is on you.

This is not irrelevant (not at all), because at equinoxes when (an apsis of moon's orbit is elongated in North-South direction constantly according to HC diagrams)
What HC diagrams?
They typically show the system from above and thus there is no N-S direction.

Why does the position of the sun relative to the moon change the effect of the eccentricity of the moon?

This (10 % eccentricity of moon's orbit) makes our "monthly variation" problem much worse for you HC guys. So, thanks for pointing this out!
Nope. It is just you further not understanding it, acting like some things are irrelavent and just making up how things should work.

D The effects of tidal forces change as the Earth and Moon move closer to or further from the sun.
Irrelevant!
Prove it.

E The moon is also a lot closer and thus more prone to parallax errors in measurements.
O.K., so what?
So where are your measurements? Did they account for error due to parallax or get around them by always measuring the moon at the same position? If the latter, how did they accommodate the effect of the position along the ecliptic which would result in a variation in the angle of elevation?
Could that be part of the reason why they observed such variation?

Those expectations were based on the lunar tables widely used up to Tycho's time
So you don't even have variations based upon the actual speed. Instead you have a variation from the predicted speed/position based upon something you haven't even explained.

That means the moon isn't necessarily going faster at new moon or full moon and slower at the quarters.
It could actually be the opposite, where it is going slower at the new moon or full moon, just not as much as expected and thus going slower than expected.

What were those tables based on?
What factors did they account for?
More importantly, what factors didn't they account for?

And now with all the different wording you have provided for the same claim it is quite unclear if that is measured as an angular velocity as measured on Earth, as you first seemed to indicate or if it should be taken as a motion against the background stars, where then Earth's rotational motion becomes irrelevant.
If the latter, it is also unclear if it is along its apparent path in the sky or just the east-west motion.
If the former, then tilt becomes irrelevant.

So all you are doing with this is making your position more and more flawed.

Get the data for the actual motion, making it clear what this motion is.
Then show what this motion (making sure you match this motion and not another motion) should be for the HC system, explaining each contributing factor.
Then see if there is still this problem.


This included a proof that the Variation is one of the results of the perturbation of the motion of the Moon caused by the action of the Sun [snipped because they can read it in your post]
Do you actually read what you post, or just copy and paste because you think it supports you?
This shows that you  are completely wrong.
It shows that it isn't focusing on the apparent speed of the moon as observed from Earth.
It shows that it isn't actually focusing on the actual speed of the moon and how that varies.
It shows that it is actually focusing on the difference from the expected.
That means, as I said above, the moon can be going slower than average, but still faster than expected and thus all your comparisons based upon the speed as observed from Earth are irrelevant.

Meanwhile it also shows that this variation is explained by HC theory, but with the approximations used it isn't perfectly accurate.
In fact, it shows that tidal forces from the sun are the cause.
You know, that thing you decided was irrelevant, without any justification at all.
So are you still going to claim it is irrelevant?
In case you didn't know, your quote is effectively saying the tidal forces of the sun affect the moon and cause the variation observed by Tycho, i.e. you are completely wrong, wrong in thinking the tidal forces are irrelevant and wrong in thinking there is a problem.

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cikljamas

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Re: LUNAR THEORY
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2018, 05:38:35 AM »
If Tycho thought the moon's orbital speed was related to its phase, he was, quite simply, wrong. This wouldn't be the only time he was wrong, either. We've learned a lot about the motion of solar system bodies in the four centuries since Tycho's and Kepler's time.

What, exactly, are you complaining about? The moon doesn't actually behave in a way suggested by Tycho? OK. So what?

Again, do you have any reliable data that suggests the moon moves in a way contrary to what the modern heliocentric model predicts? If you do, let's see it. It appears that all you have are quibbles about obsolete ideas. They're obsolete for a reason: they don't work, while others do work.

In astronomy, the variation of the Moon is one of the principal perturbations in the motion of the Moon.

The variation was discovered by Tycho Brahe, who noticed that, starting from a lunar eclipse in December 1590, at the times of syzygy (new or full moon), the apparent velocity of motion of the Moon (along its orbit as seen against the background of stars) was faster than expected. On the other hand, at the times of first and last quarter, its velocity was correspondingly slower than expected. (Those expectations were based on the lunar tables widely used up to Tycho's time. They took some account of the two largest irregularities in the Moon's motion, i.e. those now known as the equation of the center and the evection, see also Lunar theory - History.)

The main visible effect (in longitude) of the variation of the Moon is that during the course of every month, at the octants of the Moon's phase that follow the syzygies (i.e. halfway between the new or the full moon and the next-following quarter), the Moon is about two thirds of a degree farther ahead than would be expected on the basis of its mean motion (as modified by the equation of the centre and by the evection). But at the octants that precede the syzygies, it is about two thirds of a degree behind. At the syzygies and quarters themselves, the main effect is on the Moon's velocity rather than its position.


In 1687 Newton published, in the 'Principia', his first steps in the gravitational analysis of the motion of three mutually-attracting bodies. This included a proof that the Variation is one of the results of the perturbation of the motion of the Moon caused by the action of the Sun, and that one of the effects is to distort the Moon's orbit in a practically elliptical manner (ignoring at this point the eccentricity of the Moon's orbit), with the centre of the ellipse occupied by the Earth, and the major axis perpendicular to a line drawn between the Earth and Sun.

The Variation has a period of half a synodic month and causes the Moon's ecliptic longitude to vary by nearly two-thirds of a degree, more exactly by +2370"sin(2D) where D is the mean elongation of the Moon from the Sun.

The variational distortion of the Moon's orbit is a different effect from the eccentric elliptical motion of a body in an unperturbed orbit. The Variation effect would still occur if the undisturbed motion of the Moon had an eccentricity of zero (i.e. circular). The eccentric Keplerian ellipse is another and separate approximation for the Moon's orbit, different from the approximation represented by the (central) variational ellipse. The Moon's line of apses, i.e. the long axis of the Moon's orbit when approximated as an eccentric ellipse, rotates once in about nine years, so that it can be oriented at any angle whatever relative to the direction of the Sun at any season. (The angular difference between these two directions used to be referred to, in much older literature, as the "annual argument of the Moon's apogee".) Twice in every period of just over a year, the direction of the Sun coincides with the direction of the long axis of the eccentric elliptical approximation of the Moon's orbit (as projected on to the ecliptic).

Thus the (central) elliptical distortion of the Moon's orbit caused by the variation should not be confused with an undisturbed eccentric elliptical motion of an orbiting body. The variational effects due to the Sun would still occur even if the hypothetical undisturbed motion of the Moon had an eccentricity of zero (i.e. even if the orbit would be circular in the absence of the Sun).

Newton expressed an approximate recognition that the real orbit of the Moon is not exactly an eccentric Keplerian ellipse, nor exactly a central ellipse due to the variation, but "an oval of another kind". Newton did not give an explicit expression for the form of this "oval of another kind"; to an approximation, it combines the two effects of the central-elliptical variational orbit and the Keplerian eccentric ellipse. Their combination also continually changes its shape as the annual argument changes, and also as the evection shows itself in libratory changes in the eccentricity, and in the direction, of the long axis of the eccentric ellipse.

OK. That was a cogent and easy to follow description (and vastly better than a video trying to express the same thing).

So what's the "problem" you keep asking about? If Tycho's observations show the moon was moving differently than the tables existing at the time predicted, then either his observations (or conclusions) were wrong, or the tables (which were probably based on observations) were wrong, or the moon's motion suddenly changed by a noticeable amount (which seems exceedingly unlikely). My first guess would be the tables being not sufficiently precise. Where's the problem?

Is the moon's motion behaving as predicted by competent modern techniques, which are based on Newtonian gravity (and lots more than just the moon, earth, and sun being considered) with a dash of relativity when needed for really precise predictions? Yes or no? The reliability and precision of lunar occultation predictions suggests that yes, it is. If you say no, where's your data supporting this conclusion? In other words, where's the problem?

The problem is an absence (in reality) of THE TILT OF THE EARTH factor (which would contribute A : to even faster apparent motion of the moon at equinoxes when the moon is in opposition (syzygy), (if the moon is lagging less behind the sun at that time), and B to even slower apparent motion of the moon at equinoxes when the moon is in a position 90 degr. wrt the syzygy line (at quadrants) OR which would contribute A to even slower apparent motion of the moon at solstices when the moon is in opposition (syzygy), (if the moon is lagging more behind the sun at that time), and B to even faster apparent motion of the moon at solstices when the moon is in a position 90 degr. wrt the syzygy line (at quadrants)!!! - A REMINDER :
Quote
What would make the difference if we tried to apply Alpha's explanation (see reply #1 above) for the differences in the length of the apparent solar days (due to the amount of the tilt of the earth wrt the sun) in relation to the differences in the length of the apparent moon days (due to the amount of the tilt of the earth wrt the moon)???

TILT OF THE EARTH FACTOR :

When the moon is close to the tropics then the apparent moon's day has to be slower (due to the amount of the tilt of the earth wrt to the moon) because the moon goes faster to the east (lags more behind the sun). Going faster to the east contributes to the slower apparent motion of the moon.

When the moon is in the vicinity of the equator, her apparent day has to be faster for the same reason (with the opposite effect, this time).

TYCHO BRAHE'S VARIATION FACTOR :

 2.   The lunar longitude has a twice-monthly Variation, by which the Moon moves faster than expected at new and full moon, and slower than expected at the quarters.
 3.   There is also an annual effect, by which the lunar motion slows down a little in January and speeds up a little in July: the annual equation.

1. TILT OF THE EARTH FACTOR :

SOLSTICES = FAST motion
EQUINOXES = SLOW motion

OR

SOLSTICES = SLOW motion
EQUINOXES = FAST motion

2. TYCHO BRAHE's VARIATION FACTOR :

FULL MOON / NEW MOON = FAST motion (moon lags to the lesser degree behind the sun) or vice versa
AT THE QUARTERS = SLOW motion (moon lags more behind the sun) or vice versa

When we combine these two factors we get this result (next picture shows the situation in which MOON'S VELOCITY SYNERGY should (if HC theory were true) occur at solstices presuming that at syzygies (not at equinoxes) the moon lags to a greater degree behind the sun) :




Do you see the problem?

At equinoxes = moderate situations (moderate/equilibrate length of moon's apparent days throughout all 4 moon's phases)
At solstices = extreme situations (very fast moon's apparent motion at quarters, very slow moon's apparent motion during full moon/new moon phases)

Hypothetical situation in which MOON'S VELOCITY SYNERGY should (if HC theory were true) occur at equinoxes presuming that at quarters (not at syzygies) the moon lags to a greater degree behind the sun) should be presented differently, but MOON'S VELOCITY SYNERGY wouldn't vanish, it would only occur at equinoxes, instead of at solstices.

One similar HC conundrum (so called DEADLY SYNERGY) has already been pointed out (some 4 years ago), here :

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62300.msg1639873#msg1639873

@Jack, it doesn't matter what causes Tycho's variations, what matters is that Tycho's noticed real phenomena :

The main visible effect (in longitude) of the variation of the Moon is that during the course of every month, at the octants of the Moon's phase that follow the syzygies (i.e. halfway between the new or the full moon and the next-following quarter), the Moon is about two thirds of a degree farther ahead than would be expected on the basis of its mean motion (as modified by the equation of the centre and by the evection). But at the octants that precede the syzygies, it is about two thirds of a degree behind. At the syzygies and quarters themselves, the main effect is on the Moon's velocity rather than its position.

ON TOP OF THAT :

In a letter to Dr. Bentley. Feb. 25th, 1692, Newton says ;— “ That gravitation should be innate and inherent in matter, so that one body can act upon another at a distance — is to me SO GREAT AN ABSURDITY, that I believe no man who has, in philosophical matters, a competent faculty of thinking, can ever fall into it .” Yet many have fallen into this “great absurdity.”

Such men therefore—according to Newton — have not "a competent faculty of thinking” in philosophical matters. I am happy to be in agreement with Sir Isaac on this important point.

Sir Robert Ball says: — “The law of gravitation ... underlies the whole of Astronomy.” (Story of the Heavens, p. 122). It does not speak very well for the Astronomy, if it is founded on an acknowledged “great absurdity.”

“The theory that motions are produced through material attraction is absurd. Attributing such a power to mere matter, which is passive by nature, is a supreme illusion. It is a lovely and easy theory to satisfy any man's mind, but when the practical test comes, it falls all to pieces and becomes one of the most
ridiculous theories to common sense and judgment.” -Professor Bernstein, “Letters to the British Association”



IN ADDITION :

"Astronomers, and scientific men generally, strenuously oppose any comparison between their theories and the Bible, knowing that they cannot be reconciled. Of what use is it for them to say that their magnificent ideas of innumerable suns and worlds show forth the glory of God, if they cause men to have less respect for the Bible? Revelation and nature cannot disagree : if they seem to do so, man is to blame for it. Sir Horace Walpole became an infidel, because he could not reconcile Christianity with the plurality of worlds, and Modern discoveries in Astronomy and Geology with a divine revelation and the infidel Thomas Paine, and a host of other persons have based their strongest arguments upon the assumption that the Copernican theory is true, which system has been a strong fort with the infidels for many generations. Do the heavens set forth the glory of Newton, or do they declare the glory of God? In the Bible we are led to believe that the sun, moon, and stars are subservient to the earth ; that in consequence of events having taken place on the earth, these heavenly bodies were darkened; that God took five times as long to make the earth as He did the heavenly bodies. Who has a right to say that God, in giving to man an account of His creation, as contained in the First Chapter of Genesis, misrepresented the order and nature of the facts to suit man's capacity? As if man could not have understood them as easily from the Word of God as he does from the mouths of the Astronomers?"
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 07:30:14 AM by cikljamas »
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Alpha2Omega

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Re: LUNAR THEORY
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2018, 09:32:20 AM »
You never answered this question. Trying again.

Is the moon's motion behaving as predicted by competent modern techniques, which are based on Newtonian gravity (and lots more than just the moon, earth, and sun being considered) with a dash of relativity when needed for really precise predictions? Yes or no?

Yes or no?

Spoiler: here's the answer, whether you like it or not.

Quote
Quote
The reliability and precision of lunar occultation predictions suggests that yes, it is.

If you say no, where's your data supporting this conclusion? In other words, where's the problem?

Quote
The problem is an absence (in reality) of THE TILT OF THE EARTH factor (which would contribute A : to even faster apparent motion of the moon at equinoxes when the moon is in opposition (syzygy), (if the moon is lagging less behind the sun at that time), and B to even slower apparent motion of the moon at equinoxes when the moon is in a position 90 degr. wrt the syzygy line (at quadrants) OR which would contribute A to even slower apparent motion of the moon at solstices when the moon is in opposition (syzygy), (if the moon is lagging more behind the sun at that time), and B to even faster apparent motion of the moon at solstices when the moon is in a position 90 degr. wrt the syzygy line (at quadrants)!!! - A REMINDER :
Quote
TILT OF THE EARTH FACTOR :

The tilt of the earth has nothing to do with the speed of the moon in its orbit. It will affect the moon's rate of change in RA, but not its speed around the ecliptic.

Quote
Quote
TYCHO BRAHE'S VARIATION FACTOR :

<repetition>

Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true. Those statements came from the same section of a Wikipedia article as this statement, which is true.

This section does not cite any sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources.

Quote
1. TILT OF THE EARTH FACTOR :

SOLSTICES = FAST motion
EQUINOXES = SLOW motion

OR

SOLSTICES = SLOW motion
EQUINOXES = FAST motion

Equinoxes and solstices are an artifact of the earth's tilt with respect to the ecliptic. They have no relationship to the moon's orbital speed.

Quote
2. TYCHO BRAHE's VARIATION FACTOR :

FULL MOON / NEW MOON = FAST motion (moon lags to the lesser degree behind the sun) or vice versa
AT THE QUARTERS = SLOW motion (moon lags more behind the sun) or vice versa

When we incorrectly combine these two factors we get this hopelessly confused result (next picture shows the situation strawman argument ...

<image and text>

Do you see the problem?

Yes. You still insist there is a problem where there isn't one.

Quote
At equinoxes = moderate situations (moderate/equilibrate length of moon's apparent days throughout all 4 moon's phases)
At solstices = extreme situations (very fast moon's apparent motion at quarters, very slow moon's apparent motion during full moon/new moon phases)

Equinoxes and solstices are an artifact of the earth's tilt with respect to the ecliptic. They have no relationship to the moon's orbital speed.

Quote
ON TOP OF THAT :

In a letter to Dr. Bentley. Feb. 25th, 1692, Newton says ;— “ That gravitation should be innate and inherent in matter, so that one body can act upon another at a distance — is to me SO GREAT AN ABSURDITY, that I believe no man who has, in philosophical matters, a competent faculty of thinking, can ever fall into it .” Yet many have fallen into this “great absurdity.”

Such men therefore—according to Newton — have not "a competent faculty of thinking” in philosophical matters. I am happy to be in agreement with Sir Isaac on this important point.

You omitted part of the quote:

"Gravity must be caused by an agent acting constantly according to certain laws; but whether this agent be material or immaterial, I have left open to the consideration of my readers."

That was written 326 years ago.  Understanding of the nature of gravity was new and less complete in Newton's time than it is now. Newton thought there had to be an "agent", but, as we now understand, was simply wrong about that. I suppose it could be argued that allowing an "immaterial agent", whatever that means, gave him somewhat of an out.

Quote
Sir Robert Ball says: — “The law of gravitation ... underlies the whole of Astronomy.” (Story of the Heavens, p. 122). It does not speak very well for the Astronomy, if it is founded on an acknowledged incorrectly asserted “great absurdity.”

Just because someone, even Newton, calls something a great absurdity doesn't mean it is one. Don't forget that one of Newton's day jobs was alchemist. We now know that alchemy didn't work because it was based on an incorrect understanding of the nature of matter, but this was not known when Newton was doing his alchemy experiments. His careful work in it (although fruitless in terms of the intended results - there is no universal solvent, philosopher's stone, and you can't transmute metals using what are now known as chemical reactions) led him to what we now call classical physics and helped lead others to the development of the science of chemistry, both of which are productive because they do have a basis in reality.

Quote
“The theory that motions are produced through material attraction is absurd. Attributing such a power to mere matter, which is passive by nature, is a supreme illusion. It is a lovely and easy theory to satisfy any man's mind, but when the practical test comes, it falls all to pieces and becomes one of the most
ridiculous theories to common sense and judgment.” -Professor Bernstein, “Letters to the British Association”

Still seeking the "agent". Do you have a proper citation for that quote? When was it written?

Quote
<link to video>

IN ADDITION :

<unattributed irrelevant quote rambling about the relationship between science and religion>
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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JackBlack

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Re: LUNAR THEORY
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2018, 02:14:56 PM »
The problem is an absence (in reality) of THE TILT OF THE EARTH factor
You are yet to show there is this absence.
The variation claimed, at least according to one quote, seems to indicate it the speed of the moon along its apparent path relative to the stars.
The tilt of Earth has no effect on that, except due to parallax error.

So again, the problem is you pretending there is a problem when there is not.

@Jack, it doesn't matter what causes Tycho's variations, what matters is that Tycho's noticed real phenomena :
Yes, it does matter.
You are claiming there is a problem due to this variation.
This variation is explained.
You are yet to show any actual problem.

How about you stop with the copy paste of previous nonsense and clearly explain exactly what you think the problem is.

Appealing to quotes to try and blatantly misrepresent them, or appealing to religious nonsense doesn't help your case.

Newton didn't think gravity was absurd. He didn't like action at a distance.
Others disliked matter itself doing things without some agent.
Them not liking it doesn't mean it is wrong.
There objections are not more valid than people disliking Earth being round.

They are opinions nothing more.

Just like the opinions that the Bible must be perfectly true and God must be real and Earth must be supreme.
It is a baseless opinion not backed up by any facts.


Now like I said, clearly explain exactly what you think the problem is.

This should be in the form of "we expect X but instead get Y" or something of the like.

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cikljamas

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Re: LUNAR THEORY
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2018, 03:41:19 PM »
This should be in the form of "we expect X but instead get Y" or something of the like.

No problem, here we go :

"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

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Alpha2Omega

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Re: LUNAR THEORY
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2018, 04:55:54 PM »
This should be in the form of "we expect X but instead get Y" or something of the like.

No problem, here we go :

<political video>

No, thanks... argument by youtube is bad enough. Can we keep politics out of what should be technical discussions, please.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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JackBlack

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Re: LUNAR THEORY
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2018, 05:56:40 PM »
This should be in the form of "we expect X but instead get Y" or something of the like.
No problem, here we go :
That's a video, likely nothing to do with the topic.
Now can you explain exactly what you think the issue is?