A Question for Flat-Earthers

  • 19 Replies
  • 12731 Views
?

HeidelbergKid

  • 2
  • +0/-0
  • User, I am your [species'] father.
A Question for Flat-Earthers
« on: September 05, 2011, 10:29:43 AM »
I recently came across ten pieces of evidence that support the fact the earth is round. You would probably wave off the last one saying the photos have been faked, but I would like to ask you about the other nine pieces of evidence. Any Flat-Earther is free to explain how each of the nine pieces of evidence can be explained with a flat earth.The evidence is available here.
I'm willing to have an intelligent (key word "intelligent") debate with anybody. To avoid wasting our time, please agree to follow and be bound by the rules set in http://atheistatlarge.org/articles/uploads/2010/12/Debate-Flow-Chart.jpg. Thanks in advance.

*

Tausami

  • Head Editor
  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 6758
  • +0/-0
  • Venerated Official of the High Zetetic Council
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2011, 10:46:01 AM »
All of these things are accounted for. Please read this FAQ:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=11211.0

You can also find it stickied at the top of all the upper fora.


You seem like a rather scientific individual. I recommend you stick around and learn of the extent of our theories; the FAQ barely scratches the surface.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 10:51:28 AM by Tausami »

?

Harutsedo

  • 1046
  • +0/-0
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2011, 10:51:27 AM »
If you don't want to read the FAQ:

1] The shadow on the Moon is not necessarily the Earth. http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za51.htm
2] http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za32.htm
3] I don't know
4] The statement "If the world had been flat, then two sticks in different locations would produce the same shadow" is incorrect.
5] You are seeing through less atmosphere, so naturally you can see farther.
6] Circumnavigation is explained in FET. You travel in a circle around the Earth.
7] Now this is just stupid. The Earth is planet therefore it is round? That is just classification. If need be, the classification of the Earth can change from being a planet or the other planets can be called something else.
8] The Sun travels in a circle along the equator. When the Sun is directly overhead an area, it is noon. Noon is at different times in different areas, ergo time zones are explained.
9] Gravity does not exist.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Unknown != Magic.

*

Tausami

  • Head Editor
  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 6758
  • +0/-0
  • Venerated Official of the High Zetetic Council
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2011, 10:52:47 AM »
To clarify: we believe that gravity is actually the acceleration of the Earth, which, according to Einstein's equivalence principle, is mathematically equal to gravity.

?

HeidelbergKid

  • 2
  • +0/-0
  • User, I am your [species'] father.
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2011, 11:36:08 AM »
If you don't want to read the FAQ:

1] The shadow on the Moon is not necessarily the Earth. http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za51.htm
2] http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za32.htm
3] I don't know
4] The statement "If the world had been flat, then two sticks in different locations would produce the same shadow" is incorrect.
5] You are seeing through less atmosphere, so naturally you can see farther.
6] Circumnavigation is explained in FET. You travel in a circle around the Earth.
7] Now this is just stupid. The Earth is planet therefore it is round? That is just classification. If need be, the classification of the Earth can change from being a planet or the other planets can be called something else.
8] The Sun travels in a circle along the equator. When the Sun is directly overhead an area, it is noon. Noon is at different times in different areas, ergo time zones are explained.
9] Gravity does not exist.

1. So what is it, then, if not the earth? It's like a weatherman saying "It's not sunny outside today". That answers next to nothing about what the weather really is. It could be cloudy, or it could be a thunderstorm. When you say "The shadow isn't the Earth's", it means it's something else. What is it?
2. The concept of perspective requires a round earth. See proof 3.
4. How would it be incorrect if light is coming to them from the same angle?
5. The atmosphere doesn't really interfere with how far you can see, unless it's foggy. The ability to see farther the higher you are works outside of fog.,
6. That still doesn't explain why you can see the curvature of the earth in a plane. If you don't believe the pictures, ride a plane yourself and look out the window.
7. Okay, that argument was a bit heavy on semantics. There are still other pieces of evidence.
8. You say the sun is only 32 miles wide. That isn't nearly wide enough to explain how sunlight could get to the poles.
9. You're kidding, right? How do you explain why things fall down, then?
I'm willing to have an intelligent (key word "intelligent") debate with anybody. To avoid wasting our time, please agree to follow and be bound by the rules set in http://atheistatlarge.org/articles/uploads/2010/12/Debate-Flow-Chart.jpg. Thanks in advance.

*

Tausami

  • Head Editor
  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 6758
  • +0/-0
  • Venerated Official of the High Zetetic Council
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2011, 11:37:50 AM »
9. You're kidding, right? How do you explain why things fall down, then?

To clarify: we believe that gravity is actually the acceleration of the Earth, which, according to Einstein's equivalence principle, is mathematically equal to gravity.

?

Harutsedo

  • 1046
  • +0/-0
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2011, 11:42:31 AM »

1. So what is it, then, if not the earth? It's like a weatherman saying "It's not sunny outside today". That answers next to nothing about what the weather really is. It could be cloudy, or it could be a thunderstorm. When you say "The shadow isn't the Earth's", it means it's something else. What is it?
2. The concept of perspective requires a round earth. See proof 3.
4. How would it be incorrect if light is coming to them from the same angle?
5. The atmosphere doesn't really interfere with how far you can see, unless it's foggy. The ability to see farther the higher you are works outside of fog.,
6. That still doesn't explain why you can see the curvature of the earth in a plane. If you don't believe the pictures, ride a plane yourself and look out the window.
7. Okay, that argument was a bit heavy on semantics. There are still other pieces of evidence.
8. You say the sun is only 32 miles wide. That isn't nearly wide enough to explain how sunlight could get to the poles.
9. You're kidding, right? How do you explain why things fall down, then?

1. I don't know, and it is irrelevant. It might not even be a shadow.
2. Incorrect.
4. It's not. The Sun is 3000 miles above the Earth. The rays are not parallel.
5. I would love to see how you can prove there is no fog. The atmosphere is NOT clear.
6. Commercial planes do not go high enough to be able to see curvature. But it's irrelevant, as curvature would be seen in both a round and flat Earth.
8. I don't, no. But even if it was, why would that affect how far the light can travel? I want to see the math that shows it can't.
9. Tausami

Also: 999 posts.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
If you don't know, whenever you talk about it you're invoking the supernatural
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Unknown != Magic.

*

Tausami

  • Head Editor
  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 6758
  • +0/-0
  • Venerated Official of the High Zetetic Council
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2011, 11:48:55 AM »
1. It is an unknown body referred to as the 'anti-moon'
2. Incorrect
3. There are a few answers for this. One is that the stars are actually quite close to Earth, and you are simply seeing a different set of them in the Southern hemisphere.
4. The light would be hitting them from different angles unless they are in the same place.
5. Go on any weather wobsite. It'll tell you the day's visibility. It's usually about 3 miles on a clear day. And oh, look! according to this chart, the horizon is about 3 miles away! What a coincidence!
6. You can't, unless you're in a U2 spy plane. The accepted height at which you can see curvature is 60000-90000 feet, which is higher than planes go.
8. Explain
9. See above post

Nice.

?

lapmarty

  • 14
  • +0/-0
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2011, 07:54:37 PM »
are you kidding me they always dimiss the last evidence by sayong it dont exist
iv ssen several disussion like this and one was australia at the end the y said australia does not exist they got a receipe peope to disprove all argumentation and stick wto it so scam and trolling

?

pitdroidtech

  • 580
  • +0/-0
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2011, 10:36:43 PM »
5. Go on any weather wobsite. It'll tell you the day's visibility. It's usually about 3 miles on a clear day. And oh, look! according to
Nice.


6. You can't, unless you're in a U2 spy plane. The accepted height at which you can see curvature is 60000-90000 feet, which is higher than planes go.


5. First of all visibility doesn't increase with height.  If the general visibility is 3 miles, it will still be three miles from the height of a tree, or a 10 metre cliff.  So weather visibility is not relevant to point 5.  Also, weahter visibility doesn't explain how objects at a distance appear to arise out of the ground as you climb higher.

Secondly,  the weather reports aren't saying there is zero visibility of anything after 3 miles.  This is obvious.  You just have to look at my photos of ships http://www.flickr.com/photos/pitdroidtech/sets/72157627536447220/, which were taken on a clear day, and the the closest ships was 9km, the furthest about 20-25km, and the distant mountains of Moreton Island were about 30km.  These were all visible to the naked eye, and identifiable.

Quote
Visibility is a measure of the horizontal opacity of the atmosphere at the point of observation and is expressed in terms of the horizontal distance at which a person should be able to see and identify: in the daytime, a prominent dark object against the sky at the horizon; at night, a known, preferably unfocused, moderately intense light source.
http://www.weather.gov/forecasts/wfo...isibility.html

Obviously a prominent dark object being something small enough but still identifiable at 7 miles (distance to the horizon) in the best of conditions. Any conditions that make the object unidenfiable bring the visibility down to something within the 7 mile radius.  So a sailboat on the horizon, identifiable as a sailboat, would indicate a visibility of 7miles.  If the same sailboat appears as an unidentifiable blob at the same distance, then visibility is less than 7miles.  Various means are used to measure visibility, including laser and smoke detectors and other methods,a s well as estimation.

Quote
The maximum visibility on a clear day is 11 kilometres (7 miles), after which a flat ground horizon will fall away to a point that surface conditions cannot be observed.
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/index.php?product=glossary&placecode=&pagecontent=visibility

Even on a clear day there can be reduced visibility.  ON a cool calm day, with low humidity, visibility should be at it's greatest.  Anything less than those conditions would reduce visibility.



6. Wrong but also right, sort of There is nothing particularly magic about the U2's ceiling.  It does however have considerable range advantage compared to interceptor aircraft such as the Mig25RB.
SR-71, 85,000
Mig25RB: 80,000 plus
U2: 70,000 plus
F15: 65,000
Concorde: 60,000
747-400, 45,000

So the Concorde is in that esteemed club. And U2 pilots have reported seeing curvature at 65,000 feet so 60,000 feet isn't out of the question. However what I think you are getting mixed up with is the general cruising altitude of airliners such as the 747, which is about 35,000 feet.  Curvature is not visible at this height.  So point six as reported on http://www.smarterthanthat.com/astronomy/top-10-ways-to-know-the-earth-is-not-flat/ is wrong for normal airliners, but true for Concorde and military spy and interceptor aircraft.

However, sciencemuseum.org.uk need a good slap around the head.  The picture they show on this link is most certainly not taken from a Concorde.  http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/antenna/concorde/122.asp

These pictures below however are from the Concorde.  The blackness of space is visible, and curvature is evident in the photos if measure carefully with a ruler, however this could be due to lens curvature.  http://xjubier.free.fr/en/site_pages/solar_eclipses/TSE_19990811_pg02.html



First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

?

squevil

  • Official Member
  • 3184
  • +0/-0
  • Im Telling On You
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2011, 02:50:45 AM »
you could really see that from concorde! thats amazing and almost unbelievable. if you saw that you would be like "dam its bloody round!" *facepalm

*

sandokhan

  • Flat Earth Sultan
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 7273
  • +7/-41
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2011, 04:19:19 AM »
Where were the photographs taken during the AF4500 flight, processed? At the EADS labs, by any chance?

Here is a photograph which is more realistic, taken from Concorde:


http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18209127


The photographs captured during the AF4500 flight look strangely like these ones, allegedly taken from ISS:





http://www.examiner.com/natural-disasters-in-national/hurricanes-from-space-nature-s-fury-as-seen-from-on-high-picture
http://www.wunderground.com/blog/PCG/archive.html?year=2010&month=08




Here is another one, allegedly taken from MIR:




And the fake photograph from E. Cernan:


http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/ABSTRACTS/GPN-2000-001495.html



http://openparachute.wordpress.com/2011/01/07/new-views-of-eclipses/

?

pitdroidtech

  • 580
  • +0/-0
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2011, 05:00:36 AM »
you could really see that from concorde! thats amazing and almost unbelievable. if you saw that you would be like "dam its bloody round!" *facepalm

Distortion in lenses does not make horizontal lines bend unless they are in the top or bottom area of the field of view.  This is even true for wide angle lenses, though the point at which horizontal lines bend is much closer to centre than a normal lens.

The images shown in the concorde link, are not awide angle lenses.  The first image I posted is likely to be a pretty accurate representation of the horizon.  I've also posted links in this forum to photos taken by weather balloons, and compared these with photos of the horizon viewed from the ground using the same model camera.  I also checked this camera spec against a known distortion index for that model and the distortion of the horizon in the weather ballon picture was too great to be accounted for by lens distortion.

I believe the above concorde photos are accurate.
First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

*

sandokhan

  • Flat Earth Sultan
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 7273
  • +7/-41
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2011, 05:01:57 AM »
Also, pitroidtech posted:

First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

You haven't done your homework...

Here is the real deal:

http://theflatearthsociety.net/talk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=606#p26271 (fake Gagarin, Leonov, and Sputnik soviet spaceflights)


How the Leonov flights were faked...

http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/histind/Fakes/Fakes.htm
http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/3/Kausch250-253.html

'Four months of solid research interviewing experts in the fields of photo-optics, photo-chemistry and electro-optics, all of whom carefully studied the motion picture film and still photographs officially released by the Soviet Government ... (indicate them to be) double-printed .. The foreground (Leonov) was superimposed on the background (Earth below). The Russian film showed reflections from the glass plate under which a double plate is made ... Leonov was suspended from wire or cables ... In several episodes of the Russian film, light was reflected from a small portion of wire (or cable) attached to Leonov's space suit ... One camera angle was impossible of achievement. This showed Leonov crawling out of his hatch into space. It was a head on shot, so the camera would have had to have been located out in space beyond the space ship.'




*

maserati

  • 142
  • +0/-0
  • Flat Earth Supporter
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2011, 05:23:40 AM »
we see the earth curvature from the high because lack of light and the earth indeed like a circle.... ::)
When DOGMA is so deeply embedded, LOGIC, REALITY and FACTS are replaced by STUPIDITY, MYTH and outright LIES

?

pitdroidtech

  • 580
  • +0/-0
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2011, 05:25:17 AM »
Where were the photographs taken during the AF4500 flight, processed? At the EADS labs, by any chance?

Here is a photograph which is more realistic, taken from Concorde:


http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18209127


Are you seriosu??  Alike in which way?

If you are talking about curvature, then look closer.  The Concorde pics, at 60,000 show far less curvature than the ISS pictures, at 350kms (1.1 million feet):


20030501ba002concorde31 by max_wedge, on Flickr


89f65b43a57aea003d19697b519f52b3 by max_wedge, on Flickr

If you are talking about the blackness of space, then notice in the concorde photos there is a think blue border, this is not present in the ISS photos.  It's obvious they are taken at extremely different heights.

Here's another image fromteh concorde, this one at 50,000 feet, (blacker sky than the example you gave):


It's possible that the overclockers image you posted is only at an altitude of 40,000 feet for example.
First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

?

pitdroidtech

  • 580
  • +0/-0
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2011, 05:30:14 AM »
we see the earth curvature from the high because lack of light and the earth indeed like a circle.... ::)
I've offered a refutation of this absurd proposition before and not one FE'er offered any attempt at counter argument.  I'll repeat the basic premise here: the transition from light to dark is not as delineated as the transition from light to dark is shown on the ISS photos.
First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

*

maserati

  • 142
  • +0/-0
  • Flat Earth Supporter
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2011, 05:41:50 AM »
we see the earth curvature from the high because lack of light and the earth indeed like a circle.... ::)
I've offered a refutation of this absurd proposition before and not one FE'er offered any attempt at counter argument.  I'll repeat the basic premise here: the transition from light to dark is not as delineated as the transition from light to dark is shown on the ISS photos.

what i know is the earth is flat  :D
When DOGMA is so deeply embedded, LOGIC, REALITY and FACTS are replaced by STUPIDITY, MYTH and outright LIES

?

pitdroidtech

  • 580
  • +0/-0
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2011, 05:49:58 AM »
Also, pitroidtech posted:

First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

You haven't done your homework...

Here is the real deal:

http://theflatearthsociety.net/talk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=606#p26271 (fake Gagarin, Leonov, and Sputnik soviet spaceflights)


How the Leonov flights were faked...

http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/histind/Fakes/Fakes.htm
http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/3/Kausch250-253.html

'Four months of solid research interviewing experts in the fields of photo-optics, photo-chemistry and electro-optics, all of whom carefully studied the motion picture film and still photographs officially released by the Soviet Government ... (indicate them to be) double-printed .. The foreground (Leonov) was superimposed on the background (Earth below). The Russian film showed reflections from the glass plate under which a double plate is made ... Leonov was suspended from wire or cables ... In several episodes of the Russian film, light was reflected from a small portion of wire (or cable) attached to Leonov's space suit ... One camera angle was impossible of achievement. This showed Leonov crawling out of his hatch into space. It was a head on shot, so the camera would have had to have been located out in space beyond the space ship.'
Four months of solid muck raking to  make a money spinning doucmentary based on a bare whif of controversy...

This site has a good explanation for most of the points you have raised. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-78358.html

I'm not going to get into this myself; I've already addressed the moon landing conspiracy and space walking claims I've come across since joining, without I might add any attempt at counter-argument.  This is just more of the same.  When you look at these, it's always the same.  Unprofessional non-experts, or experts in different fields, claiming to have irrefutable evidence that, when analysed, is shown to be conjecture without solid evidential backup.

I'm gona say one thing though, which is a hallmark of conspiracy theorists attempting to claim photographic evidence is fake, the example of the camera angle of leonov crawling out of his hatch.  Conspiracy theorists always claim authorities went to so much trouble, and convincingly faked footage that only experts can identify, and then do something unbelievably amateurish as to film something from a wrong angle or cast shadows from lights that couldn't have existed?  Just stop and think about how absurd that is.  But do the so called "experts" ever stop to think that the space mission planners, given that this was to be the FIRST EVER spacewalk, might have planted a camera on the outside of the spacecraft??  No, of course not.  That would be too obvious.

The same claim was made about the moon landing ffs.  Conspiracy theorists where jumping all over the fact that there are pictures of the lunar module blasting of leaving the lem behind.  Did they really think NASA are THAT stupid and careless?

It's really worth using a little discernment when watching these kinds of videos, and perhaps be a little (or a lot) less trusting of the producers.  They are in it for a buck, they are not trying to make the world a better place.

First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "

?

pitdroidtech

  • 580
  • +0/-0
Re: A Question for Flat-Earthers
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2011, 05:56:34 AM »
we see the earth curvature from the high because lack of light and the earth indeed like a circle.... ::)
I've offered a refutation of this absurd proposition before and not one FE'er offered any attempt at counter argument.  I'll repeat the basic premise here: the transition from light to dark is not as delineated as the transition from light to dark is shown on the ISS photos.

what i know is the earth is flat  :D
and I know the Earth is round.  :D
First human spacewalker, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov: “Lifting my head I could see the curvature of the Earth's horizon. ’So the world really is round,’ I said softly to myself, as if the words came from somewhere deep in my soul. "