No sense of scale

I think the biggest reason people could possibly think the earth is flat is simply due to having no sense of scale.

Case in point: people arguing that perfectly flat industrial glass requires a flat surface. The reality of the situation is that the glass is effectively perfectly flat due to the massive scale of the curvature of the earth causing the flaws to be effectively unnoticable.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale

You flat-earthers would probably make great Sci-Fi writers.

What if a situation calls for perfectly flat glass?  Do the manufactures simply say, "Sorry, Chap.  You'll just have to deal with glass that bends with the earth."?

What if a situation calls for perfectly flat glass?  Do the manufactures simply say, "Sorry, Chap.  You'll just have to deal with glass that bends with the earth."?

yes.

Quote from: Pongo on March 07, 2011, 11:32:11 PM

What if a situation calls for perfectly flat glass?  Do the manufactures simply say, "Sorry, Chap.  You'll just have to deal with glass that bends with the earth."?

yes.

I suppose then, that you can conclusively prove the roundness of the earth by testing any sample ever made for a curve?

well, the float proces invovles making the glass on a liquid, and liquids have surface tension.
the same thing causes the meniscus of water in a graduated cylinder.

now, if we were to use that, and make it the opposite curve caused by gravity, the glass will be flat


but in real life, there is no such thing as perfectly flat.  it will always have imperfections and such, due to a lot of factors, such as, but not limited to

differences in heat of the glass=uneven cooling
differences in densities of materials=uneven surface
differences in glass composition in parts of the glass
not a perfectly smooth glass
cooling before the glass can make a perfectly flat shape
glass flowing (glass is or acts like a supercooled liquid)

Quote from: Demouse on March 07, 2011, 11:33:45 PM

Quote from: Pongo on March 07, 2011, 11:32:11 PM

What if a situation calls for perfectly flat glass?  Do the manufactures simply say, "Sorry, Chap.  You'll just have to deal with glass that bends with the earth."?

yes.

I suppose then, that you can conclusively prove the roundness of the earth by testing any sample ever made for a curve?

Yes.

If you had tools sensitive enough.

In a window-sized pane of glass however you would need some pretty impressive equipment to notice a significant curvature once you take into account the diamiter of the earth.


(unless the process of creation takes the curvature into account)

(unless the process of creation takes the curvature into account)

Are you now postulating that perfectly flat glass can be created?  So your argument is perfectly flat glass can't be created unless it can.  Well, sounds like it's win/win bulletproof argument for you here.  I guess we should just pack it up.

exactly

there is no counterpoint.

so i win!!

my point was actualyl just that using flat glass in support of flat earth theory is stupid because the level of difference the durvature of the earth makes on it due to scale is more negliugable than the fact that glass acts like a supercooled liquid

What if a situation calls for perfectly flat glass?  Do the manufactures simply say, "Sorry, Chap.  You'll just have to deal with glass that bends with the earth."?

Pongo, I'm not sure if you really understand the properties of glass.  If a situation calls for perfectly flat glass, then it would be ground perfectly flat.  Besides, what possible situation would require perfectly flat glass on a scale where the curvature of the earth would need to be taken into account? 

glass acts like a supercooled liquid

Um.

my point was actualyl just that using flat glass in support of flat earth theory is stupid because the level of difference the durvature of the earth makes on it due to scale is more negliugable than the fact that glass acts like a supercooled liquid

You are correct that it is a bad argument, but your reasoning apparently rests on a common misconception. Glass is not a liquid but rather an amorphous solid.

Quote from: Demouse on March 08, 2011, 02:17:54 AM

my point was actualyl just that using flat glass in support of flat earth theory is stupid because the level of difference the durvature of the earth makes on it due to scale is more negliugable than the fact that glass acts like a supercooled liquid

You are correct that it is a bad argument, but your reasoning apparently rests on a common misconception. Glass is not a liquid but rather an amorphous solid.

oh... is there a difference?

oh... is there a difference?

Yes. Quite a bit. The exact definition of an amorphous solid is complicated, but the most relevant distinctions are that amorphous solids don't flow. However, they aren't like crystals in that they don't exhibit overarching patterns the way crystal solids do. There are some weird behaviors related to what happens when you heat amorphous solids up (as I understand it rather than a sudden phase transition they sort of start behaving more and more like liquids, without a substantially distinct heat of fusion temperature). I don't have enough chem background to discuss this in substantially more detail.

Quote from: Pongo on March 07, 2011, 11:32:11 PM

What if a situation calls for perfectly flat glass?  Do the manufactures simply say, "Sorry, Chap.  You'll just have to deal with glass that bends with the earth."?

Pongo, I'm not sure if you really understand the properties of glass.  If a situation calls for perfectly flat glass, then it would be ground perfectly flat.  Besides, what possible situation would require perfectly flat glass on a scale where the curvature of the earth would need to be taken into account? 

This response confused me so I left it alone for a few hours.  Perhaps you can explain to me the properties of glass that you think I don't understand.

Quote from: markjo on March 08, 2011, 06:37:30 AM

Quote from: Pongo on March 07, 2011, 11:32:11 PM

What if a situation calls for perfectly flat glass?  Do the manufactures simply say, "Sorry, Chap.  You'll just have to deal with glass that bends with the earth."?

Pongo, I'm not sure if you really understand the properties of glass.  If a situation calls for perfectly flat glass, then it would be ground perfectly flat.  Besides, what possible situation would require perfectly flat glass on a scale where the curvature of the earth would need to be taken into account? 

This response confused me so I left it alone for a few hours.  Perhaps you can explain to me the properties of glass that you think I don't understand.

Well, for one thing, glass is flexible.  If you need a sheet of "perfectly" flat glass so large that the "supposed" curvature of the earth is an issue, then you must have already overcome the far more significant issue of that sheet of glass sagging due to gravity (or UA if you prefer).  This is why I ask what sort of application you had in mind for a sheet of "perfectly" flat glass this large.

P.S.  Don't forget the thermal expansion properties of glass as well.

See, the problem with accusing people who believe in the earth being flat as having no sense of scale is that you attempt to portray yourself as superior to those people you are accusing. It is somewhat offensive that you consider all people who lack a sense of scale as believers in either the flat or science fiction. That bothers me, and when things bother me I usually tell people that it bothers me and I would like them to stop bothering me. In this specific instance I shall elaborate by explaining why people who believe in a round earth are also lacking a sense of scale. You see a round earth would be larger than a flat earth because of the greater amount of surface area and internal volume. That would make it harder to comprehend as a physical object and therefore more difficult to conceptualize as a thing. From this information one can conclude that a round earth is a more difficult thing to believe in and is therefore, due to the use of Occam's Razor, probably not as likely or possible as the flat earth.

So please, in the future, be polite when disagreeing with others.

Thank you.

See, the problem with accusing people who believe in the earth being flat as having no sense of scale is that you attempt to portray yourself as superior to those people you are accusing. It is somewhat offensive that you consider all people who lack a sense of scale as believers in either the flat or science fiction. That bothers me, and when things bother me I usually tell people that it bothers me and I would like them to stop bothering me. In this specific instance I shall elaborate by explaining why people who believe in a round earth are also lacking a sense of scale. You see a round earth would be larger than a flat earth because of the greater amount of surface area and internal volume. That would make it harder to comprehend as a physical object and therefore more difficult to conceptualize as a thing. From this information one can conclude that a round earth is a more difficult thing to believe in and is therefore, due to the use of Occam's Razor, probably not as likely or possible as the flat earth.

So please, in the future, be polite when disagreeing with others.

Thank you.

You're wrong about everything following your first point.

Quote from: Pongo on March 08, 2011, 06:39:21 PM

Quote from: markjo on March 08, 2011, 06:37:30 AM

Quote from: Pongo on March 07, 2011, 11:32:11 PM

What if a situation calls for perfectly flat glass?  Do the manufactures simply say, "Sorry, Chap.  You'll just have to deal with glass that bends with the earth."?

Pongo, I'm not sure if you really understand the properties of glass.  If a situation calls for perfectly flat glass, then it would be ground perfectly flat.  Besides, what possible situation would require perfectly flat glass on a scale where the curvature of the earth would need to be taken into account? 

This response confused me so I left it alone for a few hours.  Perhaps you can explain to me the properties of glass that you think I don't understand.

Well, for one thing, glass is flexible.  If you need a sheet of "perfectly" flat glass so large that the "supposed" curvature of the earth is an issue, then you must have already overcome the far more significant issue of that sheet of glass sagging due to gravity (or UA if you prefer).  This is why I ask what sort of application you had in mind for a sheet of "perfectly" flat glass this large.

P.S.  Don't forget the thermal expansion properties of glass as well.

I see, but why do you assume that the need for perfectly flat glass requires that the glass be large?  Why couldn't someone need a sheet of perfectly flat glass that's small?

no matter how small, it should still warp a bit. so no "perfectly flat" and no glass is without inperfections, which can slightly alter the shape

I see, but why do you assume that the need for perfectly flat glass requires that the glass be large?  Why couldn't someone need a sheet of perfectly flat glass that's small?

There are a great many uses for small sheets of perfectly flat glass.  I just don't know of any uses for perfectly flat glass need to worry about the curvature of the earth in the manufacturing process.