Spanish Book on the true discoveries of America by Duchess Medina Sidonia

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drevko

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I found it recently, very interesting, talks about Piri Reis but much much deeper, a true gem, by Spanish Duchess Medina Sidonia, who had access to ancient documents on her and other's archives.

For those who read Spanish

http://www.webislam.com/?idl=203

If not, link with Google translate

http://translate.google.com/translate?client=tmpg&hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webislam.com%2F%3Fidl%3D203&langpair=es|en

Of course, I too support new chronology, so, take what you can from it, don't focus on the dates, but on the rest.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 06:44:53 AM by drevko »

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Horatio

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How is this relevant to Flat Earth Theory?
How dare you have the audacity to demand my deposition. I've never even heard of you.

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17 November

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How is this relevant to Flat Earth Theory?

Wikipedia has this revealing comment about the book:

"During her extensive research in the archives she discovered documents which convinced her that America was discovered a long time before Columbus by Arab-Andalusian or Moroccan sailors trading with ports in Brazil, Guayana and Venezuela and she published her views in 'No fuimos nosotros' ('It wasn't us') and in 'Africa versus America.'"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luisa_Isabel_%C3%81lvarez_de_Toledo,_21st_Duchess_of_Medina_Sidonia

The history of exploration is connected to the history of geographical ideas.  If the Arabs do indeed possess a genuine history of trans-oceanic sailing and trading before Columbus, then such a history is potentially rich with facts that would be valuable to the study of geography.  
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 07:39:36 PM by 17 November »

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Username

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How is this relevant to Flat Earth Theory?

My post was simply trying to make the OP more understandable by pointedly stating the main point of the book, but to more directly answer your question I would say that the history of exploration is connected to the history of geographical ideas.  

If the Arabs do indeed possess a genuine history of trans-oceanic sailing and trading before Columbus, then such a history is potentially rich with facts that would be valuable to the study of geography.  
Its my belief you are right on the mark;  If we are to find the issues in current methodologies with navigation we must look beyond to the past, where the honest treasure lies.
if you can'd awguxe bodh zidez, you undewzdand neidew

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17 November

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'The Pre-Columbian Discovery of the American Continent By Muslim Seafarers'
By Professor Fuat Sezgin
http://www.laits.utexas.edu/gma/mappamundi/docs/precolumbamerica.pdf

This lecture by Turkish science professor Fuat Sezgin is the best analysis of pre-Columbian transoceanic travel that I have ever read.
The occasion is the refutation of the popular and highly erroneous book '1421:  The Year China Discovered America' by Gavin Menzies.
In accordance with the critical examination of evidence throughout this paper, this thesis appears on pages 37 and 38:

"There is historic evidence that muslims resp. Arabs tried repeatedly to travel westward across the Ocean from the first half of the 10th century on, at first from Portuguese and later from West African harbours.  The aim was quite often defined as reaching "the opposite End of the Ocean."  Based on our knowledge of the cartographic achievements and the remarkably advanced navigation in the Arab/Islamic culture area along with the cartographic materials mostly surviving in European copies, I arrive at the considered opinion that it must have been Muslim navigators who had not only reached the new oceanic continent certainly by the beginning of the 15th century but even started to survey it.  The passage from Fra Mauro already quoted above in which he states (in the year 1457) that in 1420 a ship coming from the Indian Ocean had passed the Cape of Good Hope and travelled via the Cape Verde islands apparently on course to the "Isles of Men and Women" in the Caribbean and back to the Cape of Good Hope, implies at least that this route was already known in 1420 and that reports about these activities had reached Venice by 1457"


Turkish Professor Fuat Sezgin is the foremost scholar of Islamic science in the world.  Earning a Ph.D. from Istanbul University in 1961, Fuat Sezgin was dismissed from his job after the 1960 coup of Turkey's government by fascist Grey Wolves founder Alpaslan Turkes and thus resettled in Germany.  In 1982, Sezgin established the 'Institute of the History of the Arab Islamic Sciences' which now houses the most comprehensive collection of texts on the history of Arabic-Islamic science in the world.  Sezgin has founded museums of many hundreds of replicas of historical scientific instruments, tools and maps, mostly belonging to the Golden Age of Islamic science in Germany and Istanbul.  His 13-volume work 'Geschichte des Arabischen Schrifttums' (1967-2000) is the cornerstone reference on the history of science and technology in the Islamic world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuat_Sezgin

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'Royal Commentaries of the Incas'
By Garcilaso "Inca" De La Vega
http://www.reformation.org/garcilaso-de-la-vega.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comentarios_Reales_de_los_Incas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_Garcilaso_de_la_Vega

Alonzo Sanchez
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alonso_S%C3%A1nchez

'The Royal Commentaries of the Incas' is the complete and definitive history of the Incas from their first king to the Spanish conquest and was written in the 1500's by the son of an Incan princess and a conquistador.  It incidentally contains a controversial account about the Spanish mariner Alonzo Sanchez who sailed to the Carribean islands in the 1480's and returned to the Madeira islands just north of the Azores in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean where he met Columbus who took his information and then killed him.  That Columbus lived in Madeira in the 1480's is an established fact.  The 'Royal Commentaries of the Incas' makes an ideal companion to 'A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies' by Bartolome de Las Casas (which chronicles the destruction of the Aztecs) and is also one of the sources used by the Duchess of Sidonia in her book 'Africa versus America' which concerns Arab navigation to the americas before Columbus.

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17 November

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'They Came Before Columbus:  The African Presence in Ancient America'
By Ivan Van Sertima
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0394402456/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_5?ie=UTF8&m=A343JBH8AKUORS

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3924842503305971166#


'Africa and the Discovery of America' (circa 1902)
By Leo Weiner
http://www.amazon.com/Africa-Discovery-America-Leo-Wiener/dp/1881316025/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307692029&sr=1-1

'Dawn Voyage:  The Black African Discovery of America'
By Michael Bradley
http://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Voyage-African-Discovery-America/dp/1881316122

'Atlantis in Mexico'
By Clyde Winters

The Mali Discovery of America

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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What strikes me as fascinating 17 is the African influence on ancient culture within Central America in particular. Food, stories, language, and even fetures of natives provide clues to such history.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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I wonder 17 if you have also read about the Asian explorers that preceded Columbus as well and found the Americas.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Thork

I wonder 17 if you have also read about the Asian explorers that preceded Columbus as well and found the Americas.

I wonder if you have read this ...

Quote from: http://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/BestifBrits.htm
In 1170 Welsh prince Madog ab Owain Gwynedd sailed from Wales in search of new lands and reached America. He then returned to Wales to tell his fellow countrymen of the great wonders that he had found. They are believed to have landed at Mobile Bay, Alabama and then travelled up the Alabama river along which there are several forts said by the local Cherokee Indians to have been constructed by "White People". These structures have been dated to several hundred years before Columbus and are of a similar design to Dolwyddelan Castle. An Indian tribe was discovered in the 18th century called the Mandans. This tribe were described as white men with forts, towns and permanent villages laid out in streets and squares. They claimed ancestry with the Welsh and spoke a language remarkably similar to it. Unfortunately the tribe was wiped out by a smallpox epidemic introduced by traders in 1837. A memorial tablet has been erected at Port Morgan, Mobile Bay, Alabama which reads: "In memory of Prince Madog, a Welsh explorer, who landed on the shores of Mobile Bay in 1170 and left behind, with the Indians, the Welsh language."

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17 November

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I wonder 17 if you have also read about the Asian explorers that preceded Columbus as well and found the Americas.

I wonder if you have read this ...

Quote from: http://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/BestifBrits.htm
In 1170 Welsh prince Madog ab Owain Gwynedd sailed from Wales in search of new lands and reached America. He then returned to Wales to tell his fellow countrymen of the great wonders that he had found. They are believed to have landed at Mobile Bay, Alabama and then travelled up the Alabama river along which there are several forts said by the local Cherokee Indians to have been constructed by "White People". These structures have been dated to several hundred years before Columbus and are of a similar design to Dolwyddelan Castle. An Indian tribe was discovered in the 18th century called the Mandans. This tribe were described as white men with forts, towns and permanent villages laid out in streets and squares. They claimed ancestry with the Welsh and spoke a language remarkably similar to it. Unfortunately the tribe was wiped out by a smallpox epidemic introduced by traders in 1837. A memorial tablet has been erected at Port Morgan, Mobile Bay, Alabama which reads: "In memory of Prince Madog, a Welsh explorer, who landed on the shores of Mobile Bay in 1170 and left behind, with the Indians, the Welsh language."


I have read about Hui Shan and a group of Buddhist monks from Afghanistan sailing to a land called Fusang circa A.D. 500.  As to Gavin Menzies popular book '1421' - Fuat Sezgin's essay linked above includes a learned refutation of it.

I have also read about trans-oceanic Welsh travel during the high middle ages in Raymond Beazeley's 'Dawn of Modern Geography' and elsewhere, but I have not yet devoted significant time to study it. 

Two caves resembling the beehive huts of early Christian monks of western Ireland which were built with windows positioned according to the equinoxes and which were discovered about a mile from the submarine base in Groton, Conneticut were subsequently found to be in the vicinity of an ancient Christian XR symbol and thought by some to have been visited by Saint Brendan of Ireland in the sixth century A.D. on his voyage to the "End of the Western Ocean" (as the Arabs called the western terminus of the world).

- Rick Steve's Ireland "The Voyage of Saint Brendan"
http://books.google.com/books?id=yK1bkKn0r1oC&pg=PA207&lpg=PA207&dq=st+brendan+groton+ct&source=bl&ots=HoPZFOrncD&sig=5TTOCfNS3984KJ_KFcPFxjLDmeY&hl=en&ei=bnAiTsWmLYactwedv53BAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

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17 November

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'Madoc'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoc

This article seems well informed about the possibility and history of pre-Columbian Welsh living in North America.

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Thork

I had a dig about in my memory and remembered where I had seen Piri Ri'es before. The answer is on the same site that houses Earth not a globe.

An ancient map of the world was found on the boat.



Below is a link to a full translation of the map. My favourite bit is "II. This country is inhabited. The entire population goes naked."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/piri/pirikey.htm

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17 November

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Concerning the famous map of Ottoman Admiral Piri Reis, the veteran Turkish scientific historian Fuat Sezgin writes in 'The Pre-Columbian Discovery of the American Continent By Muslim Seafarers':

"First, I would like to put two maps under closer examination: “the lost Columbus-map of America dated 1498” in a version of the Ottoman Admiral Pīrī Reīs and the Portuguese copy of a Javanese map showing the east coast of South America. The Pīrī Reīs-map was discovered in the library of the Topkapı Sarayı in 1929 and published by Paul Kahle in 1931. It was examined some years later by Kahle and by several other historians of cartography who followed him. Interest in this map has once more increased during the past two decades and even expanded beyond circles of experts.

I had previously studied this map but my focus then was confined to aspects that had been dealt with by Kahle, whose treatise I believe is still the most thorough one dedicated to the subject. Hence I assumed that this map, drawn by Pīrī Re¸īs at Gallipoli and  presented in 923/1517 to Sultan Selīm the Grim, consisted of two parts: one part comprising the eastern regions of Middle America and the Caribbean, the second part with the eastern shores of South America. The northern part would supposedly correspond to the lost Columbus-map. Kahle suggested that Pīrī Reīs had obtained this source from a Spanish mariner whom (his uncle) Kemāl Reīs had captured on a seized Spanish vessel in 1501. According to his own account this captive had accompanied Columbus on his first three journeys across the Atlantic. The importance of this map—which mainly shows several archipelagos in the Caribbean mistaken as part of the coastline of East Asia—would then primarily be imputed to it being a copy of the Columbus-map that had long been considered lost. As far as the southern part was concerned one had to presume it was based on a Portuguese map.

In the course of preparations for a lecture on the topic of pre-Columbian discovery of America I dealt with the Pīrī Reīs map once more at some length whereupon I came to revise my opinion. When I first read the detailed and excellent description of the South American part of the Pīrī Reīs map in Paul Kahle’s commendable article, I received the impression that Pīrī Reīs was the first cartographer who undertook to compile a map of the new continent using all the results from encounters of Portuguese navigators with the shores of South America (between the southern part of the Caribbean to about 50° south of the equator) that we know today and even some that have meanwhile fallen into oblivion, with astounding exactitude—actually quite incredible by the standards of European navigators and cartographers of that time. This however would lead to new questions: would these mariners who reached South America mostly by coincidence and stayed only briefly, be at all in the position to determine longitudes?

Did Pīrī Reīs use a graduated map of South America from which he extracted his data? According to Kahle, Pīrī Reīs supposedly based his map on a model of Portuguese provenance. Let us therefore compare the Pīrī Reīs map with the earliest surviving Portuguese maps up to 1502. Although the representation of a part of South America found there betrays a certain affinity with Pīrī Re¸īs’, it is still substantially less developed both in terms of content and the area covered. An example that Kahle had already noticed is the estuary of the river La Plata in the vicinity of modern Buenos Aires which is clearly delineated by Pīrī Reīs even though it was supposedly not discovered until 1515. Particularly perplexing too is the result of superimposing the Pīrī Reīs-map on the modern atlas with a computer. The coordinates of the La Plata estuary (Parana, ca. Long. 58°; Lat. 35° south) for example turn out almost congruent. As seen on a map, the match is very close in the northern part of the coastline between about Long. 75° in the north-west to about Long. 45°. In other words, the coastline of the Pīrī Reīs map deviates in longitudes and latitudes in some points hardly at all, in some points only 0.5° to 2° from the modern atlas. This is a degree of exactitude which was unknown in the history of European cartography prior to the 18th century ..."

http://www.laits.utexas.edu/gma/mappamundi/docs/precolumbamerica.pdf

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For the record, compare the high degree of exactitude in the Piri Reis map with the lack of detail in extant maps of Columbus upon whom many claim Piri Reis's map is allegedly founded bearing in mind the ominous factor of the contribution of Arab Islamic science.  Ignorance of Arab science has been an essential characteristic of the education systems of western colonialism and post-medieval western civilization generally:

Columbus's Map of the West Indies (1492-1493)
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ren/Ren1/302.html

Map of the Discoveries of Columbus (1493)
By Christopher Columbus & Carolus Verardus
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ren/Ren1/303.html