Should evil exist?

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Areweonfiya

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2009, 05:29:33 PM »
The best answer is that God created the world and made it the way it is for a reason, as part of a plan. He obviously meant for us to struggle, to make hard decisions, to learn that there are dangers and pitfalls in life. He made us imperfect, and he gave us free will. Obviously he did this on purpose, so he must have had some purpose. It stands to reason that much of God's plan would be beyond our ability to understand.
How is that an answer? It translates to "God is smarter than us so leave the uncomfortable dilemmas alone and blindly trust him".

It's the best RELIGIOUS answer. Really I don't know why you have high argumental standards when debating with a Christian.

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James

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2009, 07:43:52 AM »
So if god is limited to logical laws, did he not create them? Does logic supersede god's will and existence?

Logic is subject to itself, such that it could be no other way, so dominion over logical principles (which are valid or invalid only by virtue of the meanings of the constituent parts rather than by any material contingency) does not fall under the category of "all possible powers",  because it is not a possible power.
I just find it interesting that you suggest that logic existed prior to the creation of the universe, just because I don't see that argument often.

I do not suggest that at all, you've mistakenly extrapolated that proposition from my post, probably due to some kind of clarity deficit on my part. Could you elaborate on how the pre-universal existence of logic is derived from what I posted?

I'd like to verify that I don't believe anything existed prior to the existence of the universe, by definition of the employed terms, the universe implicitly containing all existing things.

I'd also like to suggest that discussing logic as existing or not is a misleading use of terminology, because logic does not have corporeal existence independent of human syntax - logical validity "exists" in virtue of the use of terms, it is roughly a by-product of systems of denoting - so that taking one of our test cases back into the spotlight for example: a complete understanding of the terms "omnipotent being", "triangle", "square" etc., ellucidates the impossibility of creating a square triangle and affirms the truth-value of the proposition "an omnipotent being cannot create a square triangle". We cannot meaningfully discuss square triangles, they do not fall within the possible scope of any reality. The appearance of meaningful discussion can be effected by judicious employment of terminology, but this is a deception. Any discussion which implies the coherence of a square triangle denotes nothing about reality.

There is not some nebulous spirit of logic which can be said to have any corporeal existence. Logic is intrinsic to any coherent system of description and definition, it is trivial, mundane and I believe it can be fully understood in terms of human analysis. Subjecting God to the rules of logic does not constitute some sort of belittling, it merely affirms his potential status as part of the coherent reality afforded by a system of denoting, and as a candidate for some kind of description and analysis. "Omnipotence", in this linguistic system, refers to possession of every power within the set containing all possible powers. If it were used to refer to possession of every possible power and all/some/any impossible powers, it would no longer be a tool of useful denoting because it is definitionally impossible to possess an impossible power. The term is tautologically false, no agent can possess an impossible power, and even considering impossible powers is pointless within the scope of discussing reality. It would be a failure of words, not a failure of God. By abusing logically coherent definitions, the utterer would turn their own discourse into a nonsense which no longer has anything to say about the state of things, but merely retains the appearance of meaningful discourse.

If we are willing to respect the internal coherence of definitions, we can arrive at coherent conclusions about our subject matter. I take such issue with notions that divinity is "logically impossible" because they inevitably involve flouting or distorting the definitions employed in the discourse. I make no special claims about the particular truth or falsehood of the claims of Christianity, apart from their logical validity - I do not care to guess at the truth-value of their premises, but can appreciate their internal consistency by careful and correct usage of the denoting system furnished to us by language, such that WERE all premises true, so would all conclusions be. A critique of those claims must demonstrate the falsehood of their premises, I find no LOGICAL incoherence except that which is begotten by the clumsy terminology-abuse of apostate philosophasters.

Demonstrating the contingent falsehood of Christianity's truth-claims is not particularly difficult. Atheist militants ought to forbear that gross hubris which wrongly proposes the impossibility of Christianity (Islam, Sikhism or any other theological system), wherein in their frothing indignation they forget the distinction between impossibility and falsity, and in compensation offer a muddle of bad definitions to bridge the gap.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2009, 08:16:58 AM »
I do not suggest that at all, you've mistakenly extrapolated that proposition from my post, probably due to some kind of clarity deficit on my part. Could you elaborate on how the pre-universal existence of logic is derived from what I posted?
Since you seem to say that it models the universe, instead of restricts the universe then we no longer disagree. My faulty interpretation made me think this: "If god was subject to logic, and god created the universe, logic would have to have predated the universe."

This is what confused me:
Logic is subject to itself, such that it could be no other way.
Depending on the context of the sentence, (in or out of the universe) it could be taken to mean that no other logical laws could exist for a universe with different laws. Since you've already clarified, I realize that this probably was meant in a universal view as opposed to an 'extrauniversal' view.  :P
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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James

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2009, 06:01:18 PM »
Good call. I could have been a good deal clearer about that. I apprehend that logical systems are descriptive rather than legislative.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2009, 08:21:54 PM »
"Good!"  "Evil!"

Outmoded concepts for an antique age!  Can't you see?  There is no good, there is no evil in our new world!

Look at us!  Are we not proof that there is no good, no evil, no truth, no reason?  Are we not proof that the universe is a drooling idiot with no fashion sense?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2009, 08:31:52 PM »
I now nominate Roundy for 'FES Man of the Year.'    

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Areweonfiya

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2009, 10:12:39 PM »
"Good!"  "Evil!"

Outmoded concepts for an antique age!  Can't you see?  There is no good, there is no evil in our new world!

Look at us!  Are we not proof that there is no good, no evil, no truth, no reason?  Are we not proof that the universe is a drooling idiot with no fashion sense?

"Good and evil" are social byproducts of human development.

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James

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2009, 04:15:45 AM »
"Good!"  "Evil!"

Outmoded concepts for an antique age!  Can't you see?  There is no good, there is no evil in our new world!

Look at us!  Are we not proof that there is no good, no evil, no truth, no reason?  Are we not proof that the universe is a drooling idiot with no fashion sense?

I believe you're mistaken about their being genuinely outdated. Since the rise of philosophical emotivism, which has trickled into the rest of society from the ivory towers of academia, it has been "the fasion" to declare the bankruptcy of non-subjective values. The casting off of religion is narrowly viewed as an enlightening success by Western culture, because yes, there is a trivial, mechanical sense in which the universe has no preference for one type of human action over another, and it seems increasingly unlikely that there is literally a dude in the clouds telling everyone what to do. From Hume to Moore, the shrill denial has become ever more frantic in philosophical discourse. However, what the so-called enlightened scholars of modernity have completely missed is that Christianity's most important role for Westerners in the last two millenia has not been as an accurate set of truth-claims about the state of the universe (though hilariously, it actually came far closer than modern science in its account of astronomy), rather it has been as an unwitting transmission vessel for Aristotelian teleology, the elegant meta-ethical framework within which pretty much all Western moral terminology was designed to be understood. The ethical writings of Thomas Aquinas assured Christianity's status as a lifeline to Aristotle.

Aristotle advanced a theory of moral value which shaped moral and ethical discourse for thousands of years and which provides the framework in which ethics can cease to be the incomensurable slinging of incomparable ideals which it has become since social scientists and philosophers forgot teleology. It concentrates on the nature of the subject matter to which any moral evaluation is predicated. What is good for a horse is not good for a man. What is good for fuel is not good for food. What is good for a soldier is not good for a monk, &c. Aristotle's account offers a functional characterisation of ethical subject matters, such that in asking a question such as "what ought I to do with my life", one is invited to consider the specific values appropriate to one's function. There is a level of functional human biology, which reveals fairly obvious injunctions for how to keep the body healthy and functioning as it should. Aristotle defined the end of a subject's function as a "final cause", a kind of potential to be reached. So since the lungs are designed to breathe clean air, they will function correctly if they don't breathe smoke, and since they're designed by evolution to supply enough oxygen for an active body, they'll function even better if their VO2-max is increased by rigorous exercise. Through adherence to their proper function, the lungs' owner brings them from potentiality into actuality and makes them the best lungs they could possibly be. There are super-biological levels of human function though. To consider a human as a moral agent can be performed by functional characterisation (and notional idealism) in much the same way as an appraisal of lungs. There are a number of functional roles which dictate the proper characteristics of a given individual. There are fulfillable potentials for sons, mothers, husbands, scholars, soldiers, citizens of a state, &c. Now instead of looking for some nebulous, general "good" floating around in metaphysics, finding what it is to be a good father, a good son, a good husband or a good scholar simply consists in examining the functional essence of that particular kind of thing. At last, the word "good" is reunited with its full implications. It was a given in the aftermath of Aristotle that good was suited to predication in this way. Lungs have a function just as mothers have a function. Since the function of a lung is to supply oxygen to the body, a good lung is not impeded by tar, and not weakened by a sedentery lifestyle. Since the function of a mother is to raise well-adjusted, healthy children, a good mother prevents her children from physical harm and danger, and at the appropriate stages in their lives offers the kind of interaction appropriate to proper development (picture books, the alphabet, simple fiction, etc).

Finally, some goods can be derived by considering in the same fashion what it is to be a good person. It's not difficult, and there is more or less a concensus. People will differ on piddling specifics, but most sane-minded people will agree, for example, that a good person is brave, just, wise, healthy, strong, temperant, polite, sincere, etc. These virtues and others will be afforded greater or lesser importance depending on the functional teleology supplied by specific roles (we expect soldiers to be braver than scholars, though there is no harm in a brave scholar). It is not difficult to have an accurate conception of the potentiality of a human life when fully considered in the light of teleology - attention to final causes in all things. How ought I to live? What characteristics ought I to have? Well, what is the final cause of a human life, the totality of human excellence (arete in Greek)? The best possible person? Imagine a superhero. And people did. The Sumerians imagined Gilgamesh. The Greeks imagined Hercules, Achilles, Odysseus. Hindus imagined Rama. Still others looked into history to find their flesh and blood heroes. Plato, Alexander, Rameses, Caesar, Shakespeare, Franklin, Lincoln, Ataturk. What is the potential of a human life? The Western world imagined Christ - what would Jesus do? Therein, often unbeknownst even to itself, lay the West's eternal debt to Aristotle, the connection with teleology, potentiality/actuality, and the notion which is required for the coherence of the ethical terminology now being banded ineptly around by clueless philosophasters from the cutting edge of research and the houses of parliament to the most retarded barside lay-debates - the simple fact which is ignored now by pretty much everybody - that ethics consists not in some hopeless quest for nebulous, ethereal, universal ideal like "Absolute Good" or "Human Rights" or anything else - that it is the straightforward examination of teleology with regard to particular subject matters, and that just as a doctor learns a lot about what it is to be a good lung by imagining or examining the best lungs, just as a rider learns a lot about what it is to be a good horse by imagining or examining the best horses, so ethicists learn a lot about what it is to be a good person by imagining or examining the best people.

I highly recommend that anyone in the throes of modernity's value-crisis (i.e., the mistaken conviction that good and evil are nonsensical superstions, and the correct conviction that "good" as it is used today seems to lack concerete meaning) accquire and read After Virtue by Alasdair MacIntyre, which I consider to be the single most important ethics text of the twentieth century, and which offers fascinating insights into how ignoring the history of ethics has set the somewhat retarded tone of contemporary moral debate. MacIntyre offers compelling reasons why most of our current political, moral, ethical issues appear to be completely incomensurable, and compelling innuendos about how to fix the problem.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2009, 05:09:13 AM »
The problem is that Aristotle includes subjectivity within his 'common sense/mean' concept of what is 'good'. He actually acknowledges subjectivity, but then simply ignores it and presses on with his analaysis. The great criticism of Aristotle's ethical framework is that it somewhat undercuts itself; good is found in the mean, but the mean is different for every person, so that there is in fact no practical measure of goodness. Relating this to what you're saying, it makes it very hard to decide which people are 'best'.


The thing is, I always feel that however beautiful Plato's ideas on morality are, the criticism that they are impractical because of their idealism and their contrariness to human nature (not to mention the actual flaws in his metaphysical framework) is valid. However, the same charge can be held against Aristotle's concept of morality, because as intuitive and common sense as it seems, it doesn't really get us anywhere, and hence is not practical.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 05:19:59 AM by Lord Wilmore »
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2009, 05:23:21 AM »
"Good!"  "Evil!"

Outmoded concepts for an antique age!  Can't you see?  There is no good, there is no evil in our new world!

Look at us!  Are we not proof that there is no good, no evil, no truth, no reason?  Are we not proof that the universe is a drooling idiot with no fashion sense?

Damn you Roundy.  After a little while I remembered that sounded familiar.  And here I had thought, at last, something in one of these dreary good and evil threads that had some life in it.  Now I have to nominate you for 'Man on the Week' and kick myself for having a poor memory. It is still good though.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2009, 07:19:05 PM »
"Good!"  "Evil!"

Outmoded concepts for an antique age!  Can't you see?  There is no good, there is no evil in our new world!

Look at us!  Are we not proof that there is no good, no evil, no truth, no reason?  Are we not proof that the universe is a drooling idiot with no fashion sense?

Damn you Roundy.  After a little while I remembered that sounded familiar.  And here I had thought, at last, something in one of these dreary good and evil threads that had some life in it.  Now I have to nominate you for 'Man on the Week' and kick myself for having a poor memory. It is still good though.

You actually recognized this?  Do you know what it's from?  If so I'm officially in love with you.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2009, 09:04:01 PM »
Well, I thought it was from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. That really isn't some obscure thing, is it?  
Anyway, it was great of you to think of it and liven the thread up.  It was like an unexpected encounter with horseradish.  ;D



*Edit*  Hmmm.  I can't find it so I suppose I'm wrong.  Where is it from and why did I recognize it?  Puzzlements, puzzlements!
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 09:51:25 PM by Mrs. Peach »

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2009, 09:59:58 AM »
It's a 20-year-old quote from Grant Morrison's run on Doom Patrol by a brilliant character named Mr Nobody.  That's pretty obscure, especially if you're not a comic book geek (like I am).
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2009, 06:26:28 PM »
Maybe that explains it.  A member of my family is a comic book connoisseur and often peppers conversation with tidbits like that one;  I 'll ask him.  It's strange how things store themselves in people's heads.  Mine needs a thorough defrag.

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Crudblud

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2009, 01:55:57 AM »
It's a 20-year-old quote from Grant Morrison's run on Doom Patrol by a brilliant character named Mr Nobody.  That's pretty obscure, especially if you're not a comic book geek (like I am).
I have finally encountered someone else who likes comic books!

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Thank_you

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2009, 08:03:29 AM »
Should evil exist?

When I tried to know what a 'Hell' could mean practically, I found out it is just what Jesus used to call as "everlasting fire".

This denotes, to me in the least, that only the joy of unconditional love (if lived by any) could belong to what we may call "eternal life" while anything else will return back to voidness (it is like an eternal empty life). The best worldly description of how to end into this void state is by using the word 'fire'. Because I may say (perhaps some of you do too)... when anything becomes no more worth to keep around (becomes totally useless)... "Let us threw it into fire"... of course not to torture it but just to get rid of it... once and forever.

So, anything may prevent one to love unconditionally, it may be a sort of evil. In this sense of the word, evil exists only for those who are given to live beyond their animal instincts (because true love and survival have different, if not sometimes opposing, rules in guiding the human flesh).

But the same word 'evil' is welcomed by almost the majority on earth who have agreed that their Creator is a sort of an Ultimate Judge limiting ITself by ITs own set of laws. Here 'evil' is whatever lets one to ignore those claimed laws said ... of 'god'. Therefore, a very hot prison called 'Hell' should exist to god's enemies (though they are tiny tiny creatures) who refused to obey. In other words, for such a god to exist, an eternal hell (a torturing place) should also exist.

As you may have noticed, I believe in 'evil' and 'hell' but surely not as described anywhere on the internet. And I don't expect anyone to agree with me, I just liked to show here another perspective for these two words. This is all. 

Thank_you