So according to denpressure..

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panoslydios

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #90 on: April 16, 2022, 03:36:34 AM »
So he had the water in the bottle. No air contact.
No, they had the water in the bottle, with air at the top.

Then he poured the chilled water into a chilly surface with lots of air.
With no heat due to both the chilling surface and the chilled water, water and air crystallized into ice.
No, they poured it onto a surface which had a nucleation site, allowing water to start forming ice crystals and freeze.

Again, why can we have 2 colours of light where each can pass through a filter for it, but not the other filter for the other one?
Minimal air on top of the bottle.Lots of air when he poured it out.
Air and water soldered together for a little bit creating ice.
I don't inderstand your comment with the filters ,want to elaborate further, what do you find mysterious about this?

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Calen

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #91 on: April 16, 2022, 04:32:05 AM »
So he had the water in the bottle. No air contact.
No, they had the water in the bottle, with air at the top.

Then he poured the chilled water into a chilly surface with lots of air.
With no heat due to both the chilling surface and the chilled water, water and air crystallized into ice.
No, they poured it onto a surface which had a nucleation site, allowing water to start forming ice crystals and freeze.

Again, why can we have 2 colours of light where each can pass through a filter for it, but not the other filter for the other one?
Minimal air on top of the bottle.Lots of air when he poured it out.
Air and water soldered together for a little bit creating ice.
I don't inderstand your comment with the filters ,want to elaborate further, what do you find mysterious about this?

You say air and water solder together.   Explain the mechanism for this. 

What is the nature of the bonds between air and water molecules?

How are the air and water molecules arranged? 

Do all the molecules in air play a role? If not, which do?

Why does it not happen at room temperature?

What about the various known forms of solid phases of water - how do they occur? There are 19 known forms of crystalline solid water, nearly all of them requiring very specific conditions to form.
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JackBlack

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #92 on: April 16, 2022, 05:05:28 AM »
Minimal air on top of the bottle.Lots of air when he poured it out.
Yet no ice when in the smooth bottle, but ice formed when presented with a nucleation site.

I don't inderstand your comment with the filters ,want to elaborate further, what do you find mysterious about this?
I don't find anything mysterious about it, at least not with a decent understanding of physics and chemistry, with how light of varying wavelengths are absorbed or not based upon the electronic properties of the substance.
This is based upon light being a photon, a massless particle, with significant wave nature, which is capable of passing through solid material and is negligibly affected by gravity.

But with your idea, where light is a massive particle, which falls through the air, and is able to penetrate the air and other objects due to its greater density and pores makes no sense.

This is because particles, like air and water and light in your idea should be able to be ranked based on their density/ability to penetrate matter.
Likewise "solid objects" should be able to be categorised based on their porosity/ability to be penetrated.

This should mean that if you have 2 things that can penetrate, you can rank them such that L1 is more penetrating than L2.
This means anything that L2 can penetrate, L1 can also penetrate.
Likewise, we can rank the filters as F1 and F2, such that anything that can penetrate F1 can penetrate F2.

In total, there are 9 possible options with how these 2 objects could be ranked (including them being equal). But we can consider it purely focusing on the order of the light.
Either red light is more penetrating than green light; green light is more penetrating than red light; or both are equally penetrating.

We can then look at their ability to penetrate the green light filter and we see that red light can't but green light can.
This means green light must be more penetrating.
We can then look at their ability to penetrate the red light filter and we see that red light can but green light can't.
This means red light must be more penetrating.
This means each colour of light must be simultaneously more penetrating and less penetrating than the other.

This is impossible and shows that the idea of more penetrating light being able to penetrate things doesn't work.

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Timeisup

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #93 on: April 16, 2022, 06:59:50 AM »
Ιce must be some kind of soldering between water and air.
When ice melts we see that the water had less volume than what we expected when seeing it in ice form.
Light can pass through air ,so ?

Ice is really cold (frozen) water, no soldering required. Have you ever filled an ice tray with water, put it in the freezer, hours later, pop out some ice cubes and made a cocktail? First it was a guarded cabal secret how glass is made and now ice cubes?
You put it in the freezer so you removed what seperated air from water which is temperature/light/warmth...

This doesn't make any sense.
You have three layers here.Water ,warmth/light/heat and air.
Water is heavier than light.Air is lighter than light.Air is lighter than everything.
Light is heavier than air.You remove the warmth so there is no middle layer to separate these so they become ice.
You need warmth to separate water from air. Otherwise it freezes.

Woha cowboy. You speak about things you have no understanding of.

1. you say:- 'Water is heavier than light'

Have you personally tried to weigh a photon?

2. You then say:-

'Air is lighter than everything'?

Do you know what air is composed of? Do you think it's the one substance? What about Hydrogen not normally a component of air as its so reactive?

3.  Then you say:-

'Light is heavier than air.'

Have you actually tried weighing both? as I previously said how did you actually weigh a photon or photons? and how did you determine it was heavier than air?

4 Then you say:-

'Light is heavier than air.You remove the warmth so there is no middle layer to separate these so they become ice'

Are you saying light is a component of ice? What is this mysterious middle layer?

You sound very confused about some pretty basic stuff that any good book on chemistry will soon remedy.

If light was  lighter than air it would not fall from above. It also falls in the shape of penetrating rays .
Air and water are components of ice with light energy being absent .

Only according to you. Only according to your unfounded unscientific opinion.  You can believe what you like but none of what you say has any scientific validity despite what you think.
What makes you imagine light has any 'weight'?  The air that composes the atmosphere has quite significant weight, what do you think does all the damage in a hurricane?  Does the light from the sun have any effect on structures on the earth. Watch tall grass on a still day do they bend over when stuck by sunlight? Compare that to how they react to the moving air on a windy day?
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Now that is a laugh!

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panoslydios

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #94 on: April 16, 2022, 07:28:02 AM »
Ιce must be some kind of soldering between water and air.
When ice melts we see that the water had less volume than what we expected when seeing it in ice form.
Light can pass through air ,so ?

Ice is really cold (frozen) water, no soldering required. Have you ever filled an ice tray with water, put it in the freezer, hours later, pop out some ice cubes and made a cocktail? First it was a guarded cabal secret how glass is made and now ice cubes?
You put it in the freezer so you removed what seperated air from water which is temperature/light/warmth...

This doesn't make any sense.
You have three layers here.Water ,warmth/light/heat and air.
Water is heavier than light.Air is lighter than light.Air is lighter than everything.
Light is heavier than air.You remove the warmth so there is no middle layer to separate these so they become ice.
You need warmth to separate water from air. Otherwise it freezes.

Woha cowboy. You speak about things you have no understanding of.

1. you say:- 'Water is heavier than light'

Have you personally tried to weigh a photon?

2. You then say:-

'Air is lighter than everything'?

Do you know what air is composed of? Do you think it's the one substance? What about Hydrogen not normally a component of air as its so reactive?

3.  Then you say:-

'Light is heavier than air.'

Have you actually tried weighing both? as I previously said how did you actually weigh a photon or photons? and how did you determine it was heavier than air?

4 Then you say:-

'Light is heavier than air.You remove the warmth so there is no middle layer to separate these so they become ice'

Are you saying light is a component of ice? What is this mysterious middle layer?

You sound very confused about some pretty basic stuff that any good book on chemistry will soon remedy.

If light was  lighter than air it would not fall from above. It also falls in the shape of penetrating rays .
Air and water are components of ice with light energy being absent .

Only according to you. Only according to your unfounded unscientific opinion.  You can believe what you like but none of what you say has any scientific validity despite what you think.
What makes you imagine light has any 'weight'?  The air that composes the atmosphere has quite significant weight, what do you think does all the damage in a hurricane?  Does the light from the sun have any effect on structures on the earth. Watch tall grass on a still day do they bend over when stuck by sunlight? Compare that to how they react to the moving air on a windy day?

Yes the grass falls because it has a  vertical SURFACE that is being hit by the invisible horizontal layers of AIR,and because air does not penetrate the grass ,it pushes it .
A wave comes at you at the beach. Water can not penetrate solid skin with minimal air holes.Especially water with such a big surface as in a wave form.Thus it pushes you .Sometimes it may splash at the body.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2022, 07:30:50 AM by panoslydios »

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panoslydios

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #95 on: April 16, 2022, 10:12:51 AM »
Minimal air on top of the bottle.Lots of air when he poured it out.
Yet no ice when in the smooth bottle, but ice formed when presented with a nucleation site.

I don't inderstand your comment with the filters ,want to elaborate further, what do you find mysterious about this?


Either red light is more penetrating than green light; green light is more penetrating than red light; or both are equally penetrating.

We can then look at their ability to penetrate the green light filter and we see that red light can't but green light can.
This means green light must be more penetrating.
We can then look at their ability to penetrate the red light filter and we see that red light can but green light can't.
This means red light must be more penetrating.
This means each colour of light must be simultaneously more penetrating and less penetrating than the other.

This is impossible and shows that the idea of more penetrating light being able to penetrate things doesn't work.

First of all how do we know that 'white light' contains all others colours and how do we assume that the filter accepts to be penetrated by a specific colour of that white light?
These all are accepted assumptions.

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panoslydios

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #96 on: April 16, 2022, 10:29:25 AM »
Why do rainbow like patched colours appear on wet roads sometimes (i think there is also an oil on the floor?).

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Stash

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #97 on: April 16, 2022, 10:35:22 AM »
Why do rainbow like patched colours appear on wet roads sometimes (i think there is also an oil on the floor?).


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panoslydios

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #98 on: April 16, 2022, 02:00:51 PM »
So he had the water in the bottle. No air contact.
No, they had the water in the bottle, with air at the top.

Then he poured the chilled water into a chilly surface with lots of air.
With no heat due to both the chilling surface and the chilled water, water and air crystallized into ice.
No, they poured it onto a surface which had a nucleation site, allowing water to start forming ice crystals and freeze.

Again, why can we have 2 colours of light where each can pass through a filter for it, but not the other filter for the other one?
Minimal air on top of the bottle.Lots of air when he poured it out.
Air and water soldered together for a little bit creating ice.
I don't inderstand your comment with the filters ,want to elaborate further, what do you find mysterious about this?

You say air and water solder together.   Explain the mechanism for this. 

What is the nature of the bonds between air and water molecules?

How are the air and water molecules arranged? 

Do all the molecules in air play a role? If not, which do?

Why does it not happen at room temperature?

What about the various known forms of solid phases of water - how do they occur? There are 19 known forms of crystalline solid water, nearly all of them requiring very specific conditions to form.

I don't know how it really works.
I just believe that water stays water ,it does not turn into solid or gas.
In ice form it forms a union with air. When you boil it does not turn into gas,but the heat makes the air rise and this air now carries tiny droplets of water that we can't see,but when we put a surface on top again they  easily make a union with the other tiny droplets and bigger drops form.
Same idea with rain. Tiny droplets fall from the sky.They create a union with the others droplets that are in the air (humidity) and they become bigger drops of water.They then are forming bigger streams,rivers and go to the huge ocean. Τhe thing is that if we were to believe in transformation of matter ,we would believe in metaphysics.

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JJA

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #99 on: April 16, 2022, 02:19:49 PM »
I don't know how it really works.
I just believe that water stays water ,it does not turn into solid or gas.
In ice form it forms a union with air. When you boil it does not turn into gas,but the heat makes the air rise and this air now carries tiny droplets of water that we can't see,but when we put a surface on top again they  easily make a union with the other tiny droplets and bigger drops form.
Same idea with rain. Tiny droplets fall from the sky.They create a union with the others droplets that are in the air (humidity) and they become bigger drops of water.They then are forming bigger streams,rivers and go to the huge ocean. Τhe thing is that if we were to believe in transformation of matter ,we would believe in metaphysics.

Try this experiment.  Put some water in a sealed plastic container with no air and put it into the freezer.

It will freeze.

No air required.

Water freezing isn't metaphysics, it's just physics. The science of how water molecules behave with temperature changes is very well understood.

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JackBlack

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #100 on: April 16, 2022, 02:29:05 PM »
First of all how do we know that 'white light' contains all others colours and how do we assume that the filter accepts to be penetrated by a specific colour of that white light?
These all are accepted assumptions.
We can split white light into its component colours by a prism or diffraction grating.
We can see that filters allow some light through and not others by splitting the light into its component wavelengths and trying to pass each wavelength through, measuring the light with and without the filter.

Yes the grass falls because it has a  vertical SURFACE that is being hit by the invisible horizontal layers of AIR
Yet when struck by light, there is no noticeable movement.

I just believe that water stays water ,it does not turn into solid or gas.
Liquid water is water.
Solid water is water.
Gaseous water is water.

All are composed of H2O molecules.
You can do the same with nitrogen and oxygen, the main components of air.
You can liquify them and solidify them.

I have already given the example of degasses water in a balloon with no air being frozen in a freezer.
It is quite clear air isn't required.

When you boil it does not turn into gas,but the heat makes the air rise and this air now carries tiny droplets of water that we can't see,but when we put a surface on top again they  easily make a union with the other tiny droplets and bigger drops form.
When you boil it, it does turn into a gas. When you place a COOL surface on top, the water vapour cools down and condenses.


If what you said was the case, there would be no reason for that magic 100 C, which only varies with pressure.
There would be no reason for it to change when you put in a bunch of sugar to make toffee.
There would be no reason for it to change when you use ethanol instead.
Instead, it would be you heat it up and once there is enough airflow, it starts to "boil".

If what you said was the case you would easily be able to keep heating water above 100 C, but you can't. Instead as it hits 100 C it begins to change phase and go to a gas, and this continues until all the water is gone.

There are many ways to see it isn't the air.
One is with an appropriately shaped vessel.
One possible shape is a tall necked vessel to prevent air flowing over the surface.
Another would be an inverted U-tube, so there is no reason for the low density hot air to leave the container as it would need to go down.

If you have appropriate safety measures in place, you can also remove the air from the equation.
You can a vessel, and fill it with water, then seal it, and measure the pressure.
There will be negligible change until it hits 100 C at which point it would normally change phase and start boiling.
But as it does this to some extent, the pressure increases dramatically, increasing the boiling point.

Alternatively, you could find a flexible, heat resistance, and air and water tight material like kapton, and form a large pouch with it, which is flattened out with only a small amount of water inside. Then heat it up and watch the water turn into gas, without any air needed.

Another option, requiring more equipment, is to have a sealed set up and lower the pressure inside by removing the air.
If what you claim is true, this should make it much harder to take the water away, so it should require a lot more heat to get the air flowing to take it away in small droplets.
Instead we find it takes a lower temperature to boil the water.

Τhe thing is that if we were to believe in transformation of matter ,we would believe in metaphysics.
No, we would believe in quite basic physics/chemistry.
The key parts are thermal energy and intermolecular forces.

All substances have some amount of intermolecular forces trying to hold it together.
At very cold temperatures, they cannot overcome these and are held together as a rigid solid.
But as you heat it up, they start moving around, with more and more energy.
Eventually they gain enough energy such that they can overcome the intermolecular forces between it and one of its neighbours, allowing it to move away from that neighbour and get a new one.
This is now a liquid, where the molecules can move around, exchanging neighbours, but only by staying close to other molecules.
But eventually, they gain enough energy to overcome the forces holding them together and they break free, flying around as discrete molecules. This is where they are a gas.

Even below this temperature, some of the fast moving molecules (they don't all have the exact same speed, instead they have a distribution where the average kinetic energy corresponds to the temperature) will have enough energy to overcome the forces holding it together and turn into a gas. This is why water evaporates below its boiling point.

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panoslydios

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #101 on: April 16, 2022, 02:49:44 PM »
Light falls like poking penetrating rays. Why would they make the grass fall?
While air currents are waves with big surface.Generally air doesn't have a penetrating nature.
Which one can push you further? A mist sprayer aiming at you or a flowing river and ocean waves?

No you don't have to put a cool surface on top.When we boil water for cooking the top plate is pretty hot .
I don't believe there is such a thing as water in gas form. Humidifiers prove this.There are invisible tiny water droplets all around .
« Last Edit: April 16, 2022, 02:59:04 PM by panoslydios »

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Stash

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #102 on: April 16, 2022, 03:03:24 PM »
Light falls like poking penetrating rays. Why would they make the grass fall?
While air currents are waves with big surface.Generally air doesn't have a penetrating nature.
Which one can push you further? A mist sprayer aiming at you or a flowing river and ocean waves?

No you don't have to put a cool surface on top.When we boil water for cooking the top plate is pretty hot .
I don't believe there is such a thing as water in gas form. Humidifiers prove this.There are invisible tiny water droplets all around .

Try this experiment.  Put some water in a sealed plastic container with no air and put it into the freezer.

It will freeze.

No air required.

Water freezing isn't metaphysics, it's just physics. The science of how water molecules behave with temperature changes is very well understood.

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JackBlack

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #103 on: April 16, 2022, 03:40:57 PM »
You yet again failed to address the filters.
This shows your claims about penetrating light are wrong.
Why did you not address it?

Light falls like poking penetrating rays. Why would they make the grass fall?
Do they penetrate the grass, or do the hit it and bounce off to reach our eyes so we can see the grass?

No you don't have to put a cool surface on top.
Yes, you do.
Note that this "cool" is in relation to the water vapour. In order to not be cool, it would need to be over 100 C, above the boiling point of water.

I don't believe there is such a thing as water in gas form. Humidifiers prove this.There are invisible tiny water droplets all around .
And rejecting reality wont save you.
I provided several methods you can use to confirm it is water in gas form.

Humidifiers don't prove your claim at all.
Some, so called "misting" humidifiers show what happens where there are droplets, they are quite visible as droplets.
Others boil the water meaning no droplets.

Just how do you think they prove you are correct?

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JJA

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #104 on: April 17, 2022, 05:03:46 AM »
I don't believe there is such a thing as water in gas form. Humidifiers prove this.There are invisible tiny water droplets all around .

Only if you consider a single molecule of water a "droplet".

Where do you read all this nonsense? Or is it all gained from watching YouTube videos?

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Themightykabool

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #105 on: April 17, 2022, 06:23:03 AM »
Physcists who painstakingly put the psychrometric chart together and the PT-E charts will be very insulted

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boydster

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #106 on: April 17, 2022, 07:34:23 AM »
Get yourself tongs, a hotplate, and an empty aluminum can. Set a bowl of ice-cold water near by. Place a little bit of water in the can and put the can on the hotplate. Let it come to a boil. The headspace in that can is now full of water vapor. Now use the tongs to grab the can and place it upside down in the water bowl (with the opening completely underwater. The can is immediately crushed because the water vapor changes phases from gas back to liquid, creating a vacuum inside the can.

Follow those steps and you've just seen a live demonstration of water turning into a gas and then turning back into a liquid.

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blademan9999

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #107 on: April 17, 2022, 08:02:32 AM »


There, water freezing without air.

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Timeisup

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Re: So according to denpressure..
« Reply #108 on: April 19, 2022, 01:34:49 PM »
Light falls like poking penetrating rays. Why would they make the grass fall?
While air currents are waves with big surface.Generally air doesn't have a penetrating nature.
Which one can push you further? A mist sprayer aiming at you or a flowing river and ocean waves?

No you don't have to put a cool surface on top.When we boil water for cooking the top plate is pretty hot .
I don't believe there is such a thing as water in gas form. Humidifiers prove this.There are invisible tiny water droplets all around .

Looks like you’ve never experienced a steam turbine in action!
Is it not ironic that most of the electricity you use has been produced by the help of a gas you dont believe in! So all those steam tables I sweated over all those years ago were for naught!

You really are so ignorant about so many things.
"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!