Viewing distance is pure optics not curvature!

I posted this in another thread but it's a commonly asked question so I reposted it in it's own thread for extra exposure.

If you go out to see and watch a ship fade from the Hull to the Mast you can then use a telescope and the ship will "straighten" out to your line of sight. This is because the hull of the ship disappears from view faster then the mast because the mast has greater illumination then the hull. A lighthouse can be seen from a distance of typically 12-16 miles before fading but with a high powered telescope can be viewed from 400 miles away or more. Granted even if Earth was a Globe it would only dip 1 Degree every 81 miles which even over 400 miles would only be 5 degrees of viewing distance shift downwards to an average man that would translate to about a 162 feet drop which the Average ship is about 175-200 feet tall and the average ship can only see around 1.2 miles before small objects fade.

20 feet square object
Feet From Viewer / Viewing Percentile

10 feet / 90%
20 feet / 45%
30 feet / 30%
40 feet / 22.5%
80 feet / 11.25%
160 feet / 6.125%
320 feet / 3.0625%
640 feet / 1.56125%
1280 feet / 3 Degrees
2560 feet / 1 Degree
5280 feet / .78 Degrees
6761 feet / .5 Degrees

Less then .5 degrees is impossible to pick up from Light Deflection alone for greater distances to be seen you must either A: Have a high powered telescope or B: Be looking at an illuminated target.

150 Feet Tall Lighthouse for example would be in Vertical distance

150 feet away / 45%
300 feet away / 22.5%
600 feet away / 5.625%
2400 feet away / 1.4%
4800 feet away / 2 degrees
9600 feet away / 1 Degree
19600 feet away / .7 Degrees
27740 feet away / .5 Degrees / Fade Distance

So about 5.2 Miles the Lighthouse should fade due to optical distance yet the light illuminated from within gives the lighthouse 3 times the penetration distance as light always travels in 3 directions and increases it's optical footprint 3 times therefore the 5.2 mile lighthouse becomes and 15.6 Mile lighthouse.

However if you use a 50 degree magnification telescope you are going to get increased distances.

27740 feet away / 50.5 Degrees
55480 Feet away / 25.25 Degrees
110960 Feet away / 12.125 Degrees
443840 Feet Away / 3.03 Degrees
1775360 Feet Away /.75 Degrees
2690780 Feet Away / .5 Degrees.

509 Miles = 1527 Miles of Viewing distance, however telescope magnification always looses optical range due to subsurface scattering therefore your eyes can see objects at .5 degrees yet a telescope only picks up objects that are 2 degrees or greater. Thus 1527 miles is cut down to 381 Miles of viewing optical range.

If you go out to see and watch a ship fade from the Hull to the Mast you can then use a telescope and the ship will "straighten" out to your line of sight.

No, it won't.  Whatever you see will only be enlarged with magnification.  If it's half 'sunk' over the horizon, it will still be half sunk with more magnification.

If you feel otherwise, by all means, feel free to get pictures of a half sunk sunk ship, and more pictures of it 'rising out of the water' as you increase the magnification.

20 feet square object

Feet From Viewer / Viewing Percentile

10 feet / 90%

Are you confusing percentile with percent?  A "percentile" cannot be written as a percentage.  Do you mean by 90% the 90th percentile?  And either case, what does the term "viewing percentile" mean?  It's a term I'm unfamiliar with.

Or are you totally confused?

Quote from: Sculelos on December 23, 2013, 05:59:13 PM

20 feet square object

Feet From Viewer / Viewing Percentile

10 feet / 90%

Are you confusing percentile with percent?  A "percentile" cannot be written as a percentage.  Do you mean by 90% the 90th percentile?  And either case, what does the term "viewing percentile" mean?  It's a term I'm unfamiliar with.

Or are you totally confused?

By Percentile I mean viewing distance it takes up in your eyesight which anything above that level is not the object which I am referring to. Even if your standing next to a wall it won't take up more then 90% of your vision because you can actually see to your left and right behind you about 11%.

As for Curvature and Optics there is a well known fact that if you straighten the Horizon using Optics everything else curves but if you straighten to object the Horizon curves. This can be seen in digital imagery but when you straighten the top the bottom slants more this is how you tell your perspective. (And it's also why I always look at mirrored images to tell if alteration has been done)

http://snaptricks.blogspot.com/

Are you confusing percentile with percent?  A "percentile" cannot be written as a percentage.  Do you mean by 90% the 90th percentile?  And either case, what does the term "viewing percentile" mean?  It's a term I'm unfamiliar with.

Or are you totally confused?

By Percentile I mean viewing distance it takes up in your eyesight which anything above that level is not the object which I am referring to. Even if your standing next to a wall it won't take up more then 90% of your vision because you can actually see to your left and right behind you about 11%.

As for Curvature and Optics there is a well known fact that if you straighten the Horizon using Optics everything else curves but if you straighten to object the Horizon curves. This can be seen in digital imagery but when you straighten the top the bottom slants more this is how you tell your perspective. (And it's also why I always look at mirrored images to tell if alteration has been done)

[/quote]

You obviously have no idea of the meaning of the word "percentile".  Please check your dictionary.

If I'm looking at a 20ft x 20ft object at a distance of (say) 200ft, I will in fact see the entire object.

I assume you're talking about the keystone effect with correcting perspectives and/or errors of parallax in 2-dimensional images?  Again, it's all logical; no magic necessary.

Obviously, you can't "straighten" the distant horizon in real life.  It looks curved because... ta daa... it is.

[EDIT: spelling mistakes... grrrrr]

As for Curvature and Optics there is a well known fact that if you straighten the Horizon using Optics everything else curves but if you straighten to object the Horizon curves. This can be seen in digital imagery but when you straighten the top the bottom slants more this is how you tell your perspective. (And it's also why I always look at mirrored images to tell if alteration has been done)

http://snaptricks.blogspot.com/

What are you talking about?  The horizon appearing tilted if the camera isn't level?  Or the distorted horizon one can get with the slight wide-angle effect shooting at 1x without rectilinear correction?

Also, what do you see in a mirror images that tells you it was altered?

Quote from: Sculelos on December 25, 2013, 08:15:41 AM

As for Curvature and Optics there is a well known fact that if you straighten the Horizon using Optics everything else curves but if you straighten to object the Horizon curves. This can be seen in digital imagery but when you straighten the top the bottom slants more this is how you tell your perspective. (And it's also why I always look at mirrored images to tell if alteration has been done)

http://snaptricks.blogspot.com/

What are you talking about?  The horizon appearing tilted if the camera isn't level?  Or the distorted horizon one can get with the slight wide-angle effect shooting at 1x without rectilinear correction?

Also, what do you see in a mirror images that tells you it was altered?

Unlevel Tilting or Wide Effect Distortion are both easy to spot especially with mirrored images because they always form patterns that tells you how the image was warped or digitally distorted either by real life optic effects or by digital alteration.

Basically not everything you think is fake is fake and not everything you think is real is real optics can be deceiving.

So about 5.2 Miles the Lighthouse should fade due to optical distance yet the light illuminated from within gives the lighthouse 3 times the penetration distance as light always travels in 3 directions and increases it's optical footprint 3 times therefore the 5.2 mile lighthouse becomes and 15.6 Mile lighthouse.

going by ordinance survey maps I can see a house on a hillside 5 miles away.

I can also see trees at a minimum of half that distance, I'd need another hill to check further.

Quote from: Sculelos on December 23, 2013, 05:59:13 PM

So about 5.2 Miles the Lighthouse should fade due to optical distance yet the light illuminated from within gives the lighthouse 3 times the penetration distance as light always travels in 3 directions and increases it's optical footprint 3 times therefore the 5.2 mile lighthouse becomes and 15.6 Mile lighthouse.

going by ordinance survey maps I can see a house on a hillside 5 miles away.

I can also see trees at a minimum of half that distance, I'd need another hill to check further.

I can distinguish the outline of trees on a hill 30km away, and a tv tower 40km away.

I can distinguish the outline of trees on a hill 30km away, and a tv tower 40km away.

I probably could if I had a bigger hill.

Quote from: Scintific Method on December 26, 2013, 02:33:24 PM

I can distinguish the outline of trees on a hill 30km away, and a tv tower 40km away.

I probably could if I had a bigger hill.

More than likely.

BTW, the TV tower is still pretty easy to see even when the day is fairly hazy. Not bad for a little stick of metal 40km away! Just thought you might find that interesting.

Quote from: Scintific Method on December 26, 2013, 02:33:24 PM

I can distinguish the outline of trees on a hill 30km away, and a tv tower 40km away.

I probably could if I had a bigger hill.

It's well known that the farther upward you are the farther outward you are able to see. My Mathematics is only referring to optics at sea level on a flat plane if you start adding elevation or bigger objects especially highly reflective objects like metal buildings you can see them much further away. Optically though you never see the objects themselves but you only see the reflection of the object but this is true in life that we never see anything except how the reflection looks to us. Square objects Illuminated from within will look circular at a distance. Circular objects illuminated within will look oval at a distance. Objects with no interior illumination typically appear squarish.

If you are 30,000 feet high (about 6 miles) you can see about 24 miles farther then if you were on flat ground (1-16 Miles) bringing optical range up to around 40 Miles max with eyes alone. This can be extended to hundreds of miles with a good telescope on high elevation. However this is due to the way optics work and not due to any curve as 6 miles wouldn't make a bit of difference anyways on a Globe like Earth. 

 

Quote from: Spank86 on December 26, 2013, 11:53:04 PM

Quote from: Scintific Method on December 26, 2013, 02:33:24 PM

I can distinguish the outline of trees on a hill 30km away, and a tv tower 40km away.

I probably could if I had a bigger hill.

It's well known that the farther upward you are the farther outward you are able to see. My Mathematics is only referring to optics at sea level on a flat plane if you start adding elevation or bigger objects especially highly reflective objects like metal buildings you can see them much further away. Optically though you never see the objects themselves but you only see the reflection of the object but this is true in life that we never see anything except how the reflection looks to us. Square objects Illuminated from within will look circular at a distance. Circular objects illuminated within will look oval at a distance. Objects with no interior illumination typically appear squarish.

If you are 30,000 feet high (about 6 miles) you can see about 24 miles farther then if you were on flat ground (1-16 Miles) bringing optical range up to around 40 Miles max with eyes alone. This can be extended to hundreds of miles with a good telescope on high elevation. However this is due to the way optics work and not due to any curve as 6 miles wouldn't make a bit of difference anyways on a Globe like Earth.

I don't know about where you are but trees and houses round me tend to be wood and brick not metal.

As for optics allowing you to see further higher up, how does that work? And why do narrow long objects not disappear quicker than square or round ones if this is the true effect? Why do bottoms disappear before tops?

Square objects Illuminated from within will look circular at a distance. Circular objects illuminated within will look oval at a distance. Objects with no interior illumination typically appear squarish.

Any proof, or are you just making things up as you go?

If you are 30,000 feet high (about 6 miles) you can see about 24 miles farther then if you were on flat ground (1-16 Miles) bringing optical range up to around 40 Miles max with eyes alone. This can be extended to hundreds of miles with a good telescope on high elevation. However this is due to the way optics work and not due to any curve as 6 miles wouldn't make a bit of difference anyways on a Globe like Earth.

So a higher elevation will allow you to see further on a flat earth, but a higher elevation won't allow you to see further on a globe?  Is this what you're saying?

Quote from: Sculelos on December 28, 2013, 09:10:12 AM

Square objects Illuminated from within will look circular at a distance. Circular objects illuminated within will look oval at a distance. Objects with no interior illumination typically appear squarish.

Any proof, or are you just making things up as you go?

Well for his first point 1980's motorbike headlights when seen in the dark would suffice.

As would many of that era's car lights however pairing two lights makes things harder to see.

Quote from: Sculelos on December 28, 2013, 09:10:12 AM

Square objects Illuminated from within will look circular at a distance. Circular objects illuminated within will look oval at a distance. Objects with no interior illumination typically appear squarish.

Any proof, or are you just making things up as you go?

Quote

If you are 30,000 feet high (about 6 miles) you can see about 24 miles farther then if you were on flat ground (1-16 Miles) bringing optical range up to around 40 Miles max with eyes alone. This can be extended to hundreds of miles with a good telescope on high elevation. However this is due to the way optics work and not due to any curve as 6 miles wouldn't make a bit of difference anyways on a Globe like Earth.

So a higher elevation will allow you to see further on a flat earth, but a higher elevation won't allow you to see further on a globe?  Is this what you're saying?

I don't have camera proof but if you go outside and pick any point in your horizon then walk to it you will see that it appears to drop the further you get to it and distant objects seem to climb in relation to said object this is because light travels in a circular motion and not a straight line. In fact light can travel faster then 186,282 MPS but it becomes invisible space after that point (darkness).

But essentially yes, for the Earth to be a globe light would have to travel in a straight line and not bend. Since you can do the first experiment and view light bending depending on where you are standing then that itself is proof that the Earth is flat and rectangular. If you view the Sun at Horizion you will notice that when the false Sun sets the True Sun takes 1.5 Hours to Finish the Circuit and appear on the Other side of the Sky. However immediately after going below the Horizion you can see the Sun on the Opposite Side of the Sky but it doesn't look like the Sun it looks like a star but that star always follows the Sun because that Star is the True Sun and what we See is the False Sun. (Optical Sun)