Bendy light?

So let's do a thought experiment really quick to make sure my brain is working.

Two parallel, vertical, perfectly reflective mirrors are a distance apart. One has a tiny hole drilled through to allow a TINY laser beam to enter between the two mirrors that is perfectly horizontal.

With straight light, it will go straight to the other mirror, hit it at at a perpendicular, and reflect straight back upon itself.

With bendy light, it would have bent slightly, and finding the tangent line at the point it hits the mirror, we could calculate the angle at which it would reflect off the mirror. This angle would NOT reflect the light off horizontally, so the angle that the tangent line of the curve hits the mirror at should increase with each reflection.

You should look at the diagram of the experiment I proposed. In Parsifal's model of light, light bends with an even function to the vertical, such as y=A*x^(4/3). If you assume that the light path follows this equation, all you need is for the second mirror to be perpendicular to the path of the light, and it will reflect the light right back to its source. The light in this model does not bend with some constant curvature as it travels away from its source. If it is emitted at some angle to the horizontal, its curvature after traveling some horizontal distance will be much less than if it is directed horizontally.

Quote from: SupahLovah on January 28, 2010, 07:42:14 PM

So let's do a thought experiment really quick to make sure my brain is working.

Two parallel, vertical, perfectly reflective mirrors are a distance apart. One has a tiny hole drilled through to allow a TINY laser beam to enter between the two mirrors that is perfectly horizontal.

With straight light, it will go straight to the other mirror, hit it at at a perpendicular, and reflect straight back upon itself.

With bendy light, it would have bent slightly, and finding the tangent line at the point it hits the mirror, we could calculate the angle at which it would reflect off the mirror. This angle would NOT reflect the light off horizontally, so the angle that the tangent line of the curve hits the mirror at should increase with each reflection.

You should look at the diagram of the experiment I proposed. In Parsifal's model of light, light bends with an even function to the vertical, such as y=A*x^(4/3). If you assume that the light path follows this equation, all you need is for the second mirror to be perpendicular to the path of the light, and it will reflect the light right back to its source. The light in this model does not bend with some constant curvature as it travels away from its source. If it is emitted at some angle to the horizontal, its curvature after traveling some horizontal distance will be much less than if it is directed horizontally.

I get that if you had them bent slightly, it would send it right back. But the degree that you would have to bend the mirrors at would be pretty small over a short distance. With reflection back and forth, the light would bend each time if light were bendy, and giving it a slight start at a downward angle, straight light would continue bouncing back and forth downward with even and constant gaps between hits. Bendy light would start at a slightly downward angle and be accelerated to bend upwards, decreasing the angle it would bend each time until it was horizontal, and at that point it would turn around and begin to back up between the two mirrors.

When I get my photoshop working a bit better I'll be able to show what I mean more clearly.

Quote from: ERTW on January 28, 2010, 09:24:24 PM

Quote from: SupahLovah on January 28, 2010, 07:42:14 PM

So let's do a thought experiment really quick to make sure my brain is working.

Two parallel, vertical, perfectly reflective mirrors are a distance apart. One has a tiny hole drilled through to allow a TINY laser beam to enter between the two mirrors that is perfectly horizontal.

With straight light, it will go straight to the other mirror, hit it at at a perpendicular, and reflect straight back upon itself.

With bendy light, it would have bent slightly, and finding the tangent line at the point it hits the mirror, we could calculate the angle at which it would reflect off the mirror. This angle would NOT reflect the light off horizontally, so the angle that the tangent line of the curve hits the mirror at should increase with each reflection.

You should look at the diagram of the experiment I proposed. In Parsifal's model of light, light bends with an even function to the vertical, such as y=A*x^(4/3). If you assume that the light path follows this equation, all you need is for the second mirror to be perpendicular to the path of the light, and it will reflect the light right back to its source. The light in this model does not bend with some constant curvature as it travels away from its source. If it is emitted at some angle to the horizontal, its curvature after traveling some horizontal distance will be much less than if it is directed horizontally.

I get that if you had them bent slightly, it would send it right back. But the degree that you would have to bend the mirrors at would be pretty small over a short distance. With reflection back and forth, the light would bend each time if light were bendy, and giving it a slight start at a downward angle, straight light would continue bouncing back and forth downward with even and constant gaps between hits. Bendy light would start at a slightly downward angle and be accelerated to bend upwards, decreasing the angle it would bend each time until it was horizontal, and at that point it would turn around and begin to back up between the two mirrors.

When I get my photoshop working a bit better I'll be able to show what I mean more clearly.

There would be no cumulative deviation from the path. Just take for example a parabola (or any even function). Draw two perpendicular lines anywhere along it. If the light bounces between those two mirrors it will stay on the same path forever, if it is following that path. Of course the physical reason for it following some random even function path is not being discussed here, only how it would be observed if it did. I believe that someone is working on a theory of Electromagnetic Acceleration, but until I see it I have no way to critique. Until then I can only deal with observations and speculate what kind of model they might fit.

Quote from: SupahLovah on January 28, 2010, 09:35:54 PM

Quote from: ERTW on January 28, 2010, 09:24:24 PM

Quote from: SupahLovah on January 28, 2010, 07:42:14 PM

So let's do a thought experiment really quick to make sure my brain is working.

Two parallel, vertical, perfectly reflective mirrors are a distance apart. One has a tiny hole drilled through to allow a TINY laser beam to enter between the two mirrors that is perfectly horizontal.

With straight light, it will go straight to the other mirror, hit it at at a perpendicular, and reflect straight back upon itself.

With bendy light, it would have bent slightly, and finding the tangent line at the point it hits the mirror, we could calculate the angle at which it would reflect off the mirror. This angle would NOT reflect the light off horizontally, so the angle that the tangent line of the curve hits the mirror at should increase with each reflection.

You should look at the diagram of the experiment I proposed. In Parsifal's model of light, light bends with an even function to the vertical, such as y=A*x^(4/3). If you assume that the light path follows this equation, all you need is for the second mirror to be perpendicular to the path of the light, and it will reflect the light right back to its source. The light in this model does not bend with some constant curvature as it travels away from its source. If it is emitted at some angle to the horizontal, its curvature after traveling some horizontal distance will be much less than if it is directed horizontally.

I get that if you had them bent slightly, it would send it right back. But the degree that you would have to bend the mirrors at would be pretty small over a short distance. With reflection back and forth, the light would bend each time if light were bendy, and giving it a slight start at a downward angle, straight light would continue bouncing back and forth downward with even and constant gaps between hits. Bendy light would start at a slightly downward angle and be accelerated to bend upwards, decreasing the angle it would bend each time until it was horizontal, and at that point it would turn around and begin to back up between the two mirrors.

When I get my photoshop working a bit better I'll be able to show what I mean more clearly.

There would be no cumulative deviation from the path. Just take for example a parabola (or any even function). Draw two perpendicular lines anywhere along it. If the light bounces between those two mirrors it will stay on the same path forever, if it is following that path. Of course the physical reason for it following some random even function path is not being discussed here, only how it would be observed if it did. I believe that someone is working on a theory of Electromagnetic Acceleration, but until I see it I have no way to critique. Until then I can only deal with observations and speculate what kind of model they might fit.

I'm talking about parallel mirrors, you're talking about mirrors aligned with the curve of bendy light.

With the curved mirrors, they'd have to be a decent distance apart to get a good idea of the curve of light, and then any adjustments made to the mirrors could be chalked up to either:
a. bendy light, or
b. earth is round, so straight light has to be bent.

At least, until we go and flip your rig, which changes the whole thing.

My experiment would involve two much closer, parallel, vertical mirrors.

Quote from: ERTW on January 28, 2010, 11:18:30 PM

...
There would be no cumulative deviation from the path. Just take for example a parabola (or any even function). Draw two perpendicular lines anywhere along it. If the light bounces between those two mirrors it will stay on the same path forever, if it is following that path. Of course the physical reason for it following some random even function path is not being discussed here, only how it would be observed if it did. I believe that someone is working on a theory of Electromagnetic Acceleration, but until I see it I have no way to critique. Until then I can only deal with observations and speculate what kind of model they might fit.

I'm talking about parallel mirrors, you're talking about mirrors aligned with the curve of bendy light.

With the curved mirrors, they'd have to be a decent distance apart to get a good idea of the curve of light, and then any adjustments made to the mirrors could be chalked up to either:
a. bendy light, or
b. earth is round, so straight light has to be bent.

At least, until we go and flip your rig, which changes the whole thing.

My experiment would involve two much closer, parallel, vertical mirrors.

Ahh, I understand now. How will you project a laser into two mirrors that are vertically parallel, yet have the beam be perpendicular to both? If you have a hole in one mirror that you shoot a laser through, the beam (with straight light) will leave through the same hole after bouncing off the opposing mirror, assuming they are truly parallel, very flat, and the laser very tight. There will also be experimental uncertainty in the flatness of the mirror and the parallelism of the mirrors, but that can always be dealt with.

My experiment is designed to measure how much light could bend by putting an upper limit on the bendy-ness. This is the same as Fermilab's approach to the Higgs boson. While they wait for the LHC to perhaps discover it, they claim to be 'weighing' it by conducting tests that should force it to appear if it was that weight. By doing this they are putting limits on how much the Higgs weighs, by not observing it under certain conditions.

My experiment is designed to measure how much light could bend by putting an upper limit on the bendy-ness. This is the same as Fermilab's approach to the Higgs boson. While they wait for the LHC to perhaps discover it, they claim to be 'weighing' it by conducting tests that should force it to appear if it was that weight. By doing this they are putting limits on how much the Higgs weighs, by not observing it under certain conditions.

That's clever. By the same token can we claim all instances so far noted of light travelling in a straight line count as experiments to show how no bend is observed?

Quote from: ERTW on January 29, 2010, 07:44:54 AM

My experiment is designed to measure how much light could bend by putting an upper limit on the bendy-ness. This is the same as Fermilab's approach to the Higgs boson. While they wait for the LHC to perhaps discover it, they claim to be 'weighing' it by conducting tests that should force it to appear if it was that weight. By doing this they are putting limits on how much the Higgs weighs, by not observing it under certain conditions.

That's clever. By the same token can we claim all instances so far noted of light travelling in a straight line count as experiments to show how no bend is observed?

Of course, within the bounds of uncertainty under which those measurements were made.

Quote from: SupahLovah on January 29, 2010, 02:08:57 AM

Quote from: ERTW on January 28, 2010, 11:18:30 PM

...
There would be no cumulative deviation from the path. Just take for example a parabola (or any even function). Draw two perpendicular lines anywhere along it. If the light bounces between those two mirrors it will stay on the same path forever, if it is following that path. Of course the physical reason for it following some random even function path is not being discussed here, only how it would be observed if it did. I believe that someone is working on a theory of Electromagnetic Acceleration, but until I see it I have no way to critique. Until then I can only deal with observations and speculate what kind of model they might fit.

I'm talking about parallel mirrors, you're talking about mirrors aligned with the curve of bendy light.

With the curved mirrors, they'd have to be a decent distance apart to get a good idea of the curve of light, and then any adjustments made to the mirrors could be chalked up to either:
a. bendy light, or
b. earth is round, so straight light has to be bent.

At least, until we go and flip your rig, which changes the whole thing.

My experiment would involve two much closer, parallel, vertical mirrors.

Ahh, I understand now. How will you project a laser into two mirrors that are vertically parallel, yet have the beam be perpendicular to both? If you have a hole in one mirror that you shoot a laser through, the beam (with straight light) will leave through the same hole after bouncing off the opposing mirror, assuming they are truly parallel, very flat, and the laser very tight. There will also be experimental uncertainty in the flatness of the mirror and the parallelism of the mirrors, but that can always be dealt with.

The way you would get around that is to have two parallel mirrors. One will be a normal mirror, and the other will be a one-way mirror. You shoot the laser through the one-way mirror, and the laser will then reflect between the two mirrors in one path back and forth. If light does bend, then the laser beam would go slightly more upwards with each bounce. I don't believe the distance between the mirrors would matter all that much since even if the light one moved a few nanometers per reflection, reflections at the speed of light happen pretty quickly so those nanometers would add up very fast.

I could make a diagram if you want a more clear idea.

Quote from: ERTW on January 29, 2010, 07:44:02 AM

Quote from: SupahLovah on January 29, 2010, 02:08:57 AM

Quote from: ERTW on January 28, 2010, 11:18:30 PM

...
There would be no cumulative deviation from the path. Just take for example a parabola (or any even function). Draw two perpendicular lines anywhere along it. If the light bounces between those two mirrors it will stay on the same path forever, if it is following that path. Of course the physical reason for it following some random even function path is not being discussed here, only how it would be observed if it did. I believe that someone is working on a theory of Electromagnetic Acceleration, but until I see it I have no way to critique. Until then I can only deal with observations and speculate what kind of model they might fit.

I'm talking about parallel mirrors, you're talking about mirrors aligned with the curve of bendy light.

With the curved mirrors, they'd have to be a decent distance apart to get a good idea of the curve of light, and then any adjustments made to the mirrors could be chalked up to either:
a. bendy light, or
b. earth is round, so straight light has to be bent.

At least, until we go and flip your rig, which changes the whole thing.

My experiment would involve two much closer, parallel, vertical mirrors.

Ahh, I understand now. How will you project a laser into two mirrors that are vertically parallel, yet have the beam be perpendicular to both? If you have a hole in one mirror that you shoot a laser through, the beam (with straight light) will leave through the same hole after bouncing off the opposing mirror, assuming they are truly parallel, very flat, and the laser very tight. There will also be experimental uncertainty in the flatness of the mirror and the parallelism of the mirrors, but that can always be dealt with.

The way you would get around that is to have two parallel mirrors. One will be a normal mirror, and the other will be a one-way mirror. You shoot the laser through the one-way mirror, and the laser will then reflect between the two mirrors in one path back and forth. If light does bend, then the laser beam would go slightly more upwards with each bounce. I don't believe the distance between the mirrors would matter all that much since even if the light one moved a few nanometers per reflection, reflections at the speed of light happen pretty quickly so those nanometers would add up very fast.

I could make a diagram if you want a more clear idea.

The light would get less bright each reflection off the one way mirror.

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on January 29, 2010, 11:25:30 AM

Quote from: ERTW on January 29, 2010, 07:44:02 AM

Ahh, I understand now. How will you project a laser into two mirrors that are vertically parallel, yet have the beam be perpendicular to both? If you have a hole in one mirror that you shoot a laser through, the beam (with straight light) will leave through the same hole after bouncing off the opposing mirror, assuming they are truly parallel, very flat, and the laser very tight. There will also be experimental uncertainty in the flatness of the mirror and the parallelism of the mirrors, but that can always be dealt with.

The way you would get around that is to have two parallel mirrors. One will be a normal mirror, and the other will be a one-way mirror. You shoot the laser through the one-way mirror, and the laser will then reflect between the two mirrors in one path back and forth. If light does bend, then the laser beam would go slightly more upwards with each bounce. I don't believe the distance between the mirrors would matter all that much since even if the light one moved a few nanometers per reflection, reflections at the speed of light happen pretty quickly so those nanometers would add up very fast.

I could make a diagram if you want a more clear idea.

The light would get less bright each reflection off the one way mirror.

You would still see the effect, it just wouldn't continue forever.

Quote from: SupahLovah on January 29, 2010, 11:41:54 AM

Quote from: EnglshGentleman on January 29, 2010, 11:25:30 AM

Quote from: ERTW on January 29, 2010, 07:44:02 AM

Ahh, I understand now. How will you project a laser into two mirrors that are vertically parallel, yet have the beam be perpendicular to both? If you have a hole in one mirror that you shoot a laser through, the beam (with straight light) will leave through the same hole after bouncing off the opposing mirror, assuming they are truly parallel, very flat, and the laser very tight. There will also be experimental uncertainty in the flatness of the mirror and the parallelism of the mirrors, but that can always be dealt with.

The way you would get around that is to have two parallel mirrors. One will be a normal mirror, and the other will be a one-way mirror. You shoot the laser through the one-way mirror, and the laser will then reflect between the two mirrors in one path back and forth. If light does bend, then the laser beam would go slightly more upwards with each bounce. I don't believe the distance between the mirrors would matter all that much since even if the light one moved a few nanometers per reflection, reflections at the speed of light happen pretty quickly so those nanometers would add up very fast.

I could make a diagram if you want a more clear idea.

The light would get less bright each reflection off the one way mirror.

You would still see the effect, it just wouldn't continue forever.

I think lack of ability to control the beam width would be more of an issue as far as resolving what "bent" is as mirrors can be made almost perfectly reflective, especially for a laser.  Each reflection would result in a wider and wider beam, which may be enough to skew the results.

In the case of a yes/no type experiment, it becomes tricky because you also have to be 100% confident in the flatness and parallelism of the two mirrors, and I don't see how you can do this over any distance. Even MEMS surfaces have imperfections.

We don't need to worry about this experiment any more though, because someone did an experiment where neutrinos were fired into the ground and detected on the other side of the planet. So we know the horizon effect is due to curvature, not bendy light.
Oh no, I've just realised this negates Parsifal's reason to exist.

Aww, but I was having fun too.
 

We don't need to worry about this experiment any more though, because someone did an experiment where neutrinos were fired into the ground and detected on the other side of the planet. So we know the horizon effect is due to curvature, not bendy light.
Oh no, I've just realised this negates Parsifal's reason to exist.

Don't ya know neutrinos bend as well? Unicorns drag them along with their horns.

Quote from: Thermal Detonator on January 29, 2010, 05:01:36 PM

We don't need to worry about this experiment any more though, because someone did an experiment where neutrinos were fired into the ground and detected on the other side of the planet. So we know the horizon effect is due to curvature, not bendy light.
Oh no, I've just realised this negates Parsifal's reason to exist.

Don't ya know neutrinos bend as well? Unicorns drag them along with their horns.

Damn, you've just made Parsifal pop back into existence. 

We don't need to worry about this experiment any more though, because someone did an experiment where neutrinos were fired into the ground and detected on the other side of the planet. So we know the horizon effect is due to curvature, not bendy light.

Source?

your kidding right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_neutrino_experiments

your kidding right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_neutrino_experiments

I asked for a source for the specific experiment Thermal Detonator is referring to, not a comprehensive list of experiments involving neutrinos to sift through. If he's going to make a claim, I expect him to back it up.

Well lets start with the big ones,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T2K (is the best one but then im a little biased although technically it has no data yet)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINOS
has been running for a few years.

K2K doesn't have a wiki page but if you go on arXiv theres reams of publications. That was the predecessor to T2K now finished and largely decomissioned.

KamLand was a little different but still technically long baseline a guess, a fantastic experiment deffo worth a look, again loads on arXiv.

Nova is starting sometime soon.

ooooo almost forgot CNGS worth a look certainly been running for a while may even have finished, I forget.

Ultimately neutrino factory will fire neutrinos at very large angles into the Earth. For example a bean at CERN (Geneva) could leave the Earth in India.

I would like Thermal Detonator to provide me with a specific one so that I can address it in particular.

I know I am not TD, but if you really want to discuss neutrinos you should go to the Beam Neutrinos thread. I am sure you all agree that bendy neutrinos would also deserve its own thread.

Quote from: bowler on January 29, 2010, 05:26:41 PM

your kidding right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_neutrino_experiments

I asked for a source for the specific experiment Thermal Detonator is referring to, not a comprehensive list of experiments involving neutrinos to sift through. If he's going to make a claim, I expect him to back it up.

See the link in my signature and then check out the rest of the information posted by ERTW and others in that thread.