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Topics - joffenz

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The Lounge / Desktop Earth
« on: May 14, 2006, 02:59:02 AM »

"Desktop Earth is a wallpaper generator for Windows. It runs whenever you're logged on and updates your wallpaper with an accurate representation of the Earth as it would be seen from space at that precise moment."

It's pretty cool but you need to be always online for it to update.

Right recently there's been a HUGE influx of new members asking questions. This is understandable as it's the first thing everyone does when they arrive here.

We created the FAQ to save us having to answer tons of these threads but it seems some of you don't understand parts of the FAQ.

So, I ask you: Which parts of the FAQ are unclear and need to be improved?

Also, the FAQ was never meant to refute RE arguments, it was just meant to prevent mass strawman farming. However I think we will need a list of commonly refuted points to keep the same ones coming up (particularly an explanation as to why the Earth doesn't approach the speed of light)[/b]

The Lounge / "Illusions" by Richard Bach
« on: April 27, 2006, 02:12:38 PM »
"Illusions: Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah" by Richard Bach (the full title didn't fit in the title bar :))

So, have you read it? If so, what did you like/dislike about it?

My favourite part was the vampire analogy, the way it was done was quite skilful. The way it just came in and opened a can of logic on philosophical anarchy's ass was great.

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Democracy?
« on: April 20, 2006, 01:35:29 PM »
"Democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others that have been tried from time to time. " - Winston Churchill

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. " - Winston Churchill

To me, these two statements sum up democracy. If a random hobo turned up on your door you probably wouldn't let him in, but you'd let have a say in who runs the country.

Despite that, democracy is better than the other governments as the rulers will inevitably become corrupt.

As a socialist I feel I should comment on the issue of Democracy within a Marxist system. The literal meaning of democracy is "the people rule". To an extent you could consider Marxist systems extreme forms of democracy. A common complaint leveleed against communist systems is that they don't have democracy, this is false: they simply aren't communist. Any communist or socialist system that does not use democracy is just another form of capitalism.

However in a socialist state democracy is rather different from the kind of democracy used in a capitalist state, which I only support because it's better than the other capitalist systems.

So I think Churchill was right, Democracy is better than the other systems of government that have been tried, as proper Marxism has never been tried. Democracy is of course the best system for a capitalist state. It's only a half-hearted step towards people ruling, but it's better than totalitarianism.


The Lounge / Elecktronik Supersonik
« on: April 19, 2006, 12:48:59 PM »

The Lounge / I am so very sorry.
« on: April 14, 2006, 05:49:54 AM »

The Lounge / A guide to Glasgow
« on: March 30, 2006, 07:29:59 AM »
If you are ever in Glasgow, pay heed to this survival guide:

Technology, Science & Alt Science / Does the bible condemn abortion?
« on: March 16, 2006, 08:58:46 AM »
In my opinion, no. Well, it does in some area but I don't find it acceptable to condemn abortion because of it.

There are many examples, too many to go through so if anyone is against abortion biblically then post your evidence here and I'll tell you why I don't agree with it (or possibly you'll change my mind)

Flat Earth Q&A / Flat-Earther's, I challenge YOU to disprove this logic!
« on: February 17, 2006, 01:27:18 PM »

I have just proved the Earth is round.

Clear Explanation:

o We start with the following sub-argument.

o Premise, just for this sub-argument: "If A is true, the Earth is round". Call this premise A.

o Suppose A is true. Then:

+ If A is true, the Earth is round

+ So the Earth is round (still supposing A).

o That's the end of the sub-argument.

# We've shown that if A is true then the Earth is round

# But that's what A says.

# So A is true.

# But if A is true, the Earth is round

# So the Earth is round!

Mathematical Set Notation:

Let us denote by Y the proposition to prove, in this case "the Earth is round". Then, let X denote the statement in the box, which asserts that Y follows from the truth of itself. Mathematically, this can be written as X = (X → Y), and we see that X is defined in terms of itself. The proof proceeds:

1. X → X


2. X → (X → Y)

    substitute right side of 1, since X = X → Y

3. X → Y

    from 2 by contraction

4. X

    substitute 3, since X = X → Y

5. Y

    from 4 and 3 by modus ponens

I look forwards to your replies.

Technology, Science & Alt Science / Devil Worship?
« on: February 14, 2006, 12:42:08 PM »
I have a quick question here:

What is actually wrong with Devil worship?

And please give proper answer not just "It's evil".

Flat Earth Q&A / The Flat Earth FAQ Thread
« on: February 08, 2006, 02:19:42 PM »
Alright, quite a lot of threads are questions from people wanting to find out more about the flat earth theory. Quite often they're repeated or unanswered, so I thought I'd make a sort of "FAQ" thread.

Basically ask questions about the theory and any Flat-Earthers should answer (or round-earthers, since this is not a debate thread). Do not debate the answers given here, if you want to do that then start another thread.

When someone answers a question I'll edit it onto this post so people don't have to search the whole thread.


FE (theory/model): Flat Earth (theory/model), a theory which states that the Earth is flat.
FE'er: Flat Earther, someone who believes in the FE theory.

RE (theory/model): Round Earth (theory/model), a theory which states that the Earth is round.
RE'er: Round Earther, someone who believe the RE theory.

Q: "Is this site for real?"

A: This site is real. There are people who seriously believe the Earth is flat. However, there are also people on this site who do not.


Q: "Why do the all the world Governments say the Earth is round?"

A: It's a conspiracy.

Q: "What about NASA? Don't they have photos to prove that the Earth is round?"

A: NASA are part of the conspiracy too. The photos are faked.

Q: "Why has no-one taken a photo of the Earth that proves it is flat?"

A: The government prevents people from getting close enough to the Ice Wall to take a picture."

Q: "How did NASA create these images with the computer technology available at the time?"

A: Since NASA did not send rockets into space, they instead spent the money on developing advanced computers and imaging software instead

Q: "What is the motive behind this conspiracy?"

A: The motive is unknown.

Q: "How are the world governments organised enough to carry out this conspiracy?"

A: They only appear to be disorganised to make the conspiracy seem implausible.

The Earth in space

Q: "What is the circumference and diameter of the Earth?"

A: "Circumference: 78225 miles, Diameter: 24,900 miles

Q: "What about the stars, sun and moon and other planets? Are they flat too? What are they made of?"

A: The sun and moon, each 32 miles in diameter, circle Earth at a height of 3000 miles at its equator, located midway between the North Pole and the ice wall. Each functions as a "spotlight," with the sun radiating "hot light," the moon "cold light." As they are spotlights, they only give light out over a certain are which explains why some parts of the Earth are dark when others are light. Their apparent rising and setting are caused by optical illusions.

In the "accelerating upwards" model, the stars, sun and moon are also accelerating upwards.

The stars are about as far as San Francisco is from Boston. (3100 miles)

Q: "Why are other celestial bodies round but not the Earth?"

A: When you look at these celestial bodies, even with a telescope, they're entirely two-dimensional.

Q: "What about satellites? How do they orbit the Earth?"

A1: They don't, satellite signals come from radio towers.

Q: "What's underneath the Earth?"

A: This is unknown. Some believe it to be just rocks, others believe the Earth rests on the back of four elephants and a turtle.

Q: "What about gravity?"

A1: The Earth is accelerating upwards at 1g (9.8m/s-2) along with every star, sun and moon in the universe. This produces the same effect as gravity.

The force causing everything to accelerate is Dark Energy.

A2: Gravity comes from an external source (to be discussed)

Q: "Isn't this version of gravity (A1) flawed? Wouldn't planes/helicopters/paragliders crash into the Earth as the Earth rises up to them?"

A: No. If that were to happen, then no planes could fly right now as gravity would pull them into the Earth. The reason that planes do not crash is that their wings produce an upthrust which, when the rate of acceleration upwards equals that of gravity's pull downwards, and so their altititude does not change.

The same thing happens if the Earth is moving up. The plane is accelerating upwards at the same rate as the Earth, which means the distance between them does not change. Therefore, the plane stays at the same height and does not crash.

Q: "Doesn't this mean we'd be travelling faster than the speed of light, which is impossible?"

A: From any relative frame of reference in the universe, the Earth is travelling below the speed of light.

The theory of relativitity states that no observer in an inertial reference frame will ever measure the speed of a massive body to be greater than or equal to that of light."

Q: "If the world was really flat, what would happen if you jump off the disc's edge?"

A: You would enter an inertial reference frame, moving at a constant velocity in the direction the Earth was moving before you jumped. The Earth would continue accelerating upwards past you at a rate of 1g, so it would appear to you that you were falling into space.

Q: "If the Earth was indeed a flat disc, wouldn't the whole planet crunch up into itself and eventually transform into a ball?"

A1: If the Earth generated a gravitational field, yes, it would eventually happen, after a billion years maybe. FE assumes that the Earth does not generate a gravitational field. Also, I'm not sure what FE's stance on the age of the world is, but it's plausible that it's a younger estimation than the RE claim.

A2: There is a counter-mass which pulls the Earth back into a disc shape.

Q: "Why does gravity vary with altitiude?"

A: The moon and stars have a slight gravitational pull.


Q: Exactly what shape is the Earth if it's flat? Square or circle?

A: Circle, like in the UN logo

Q: "Why doesn't water run off the Earth?"

A: There is a vast ice wall that keeps the water where it is. The ice wall is roughly 150ft high. This also explains why you can find a vast plane of ice when you travel south.

Antarctica as a continent does not exist.

Q: "How does global warming affect the ice wall?"

A1: Global warming is melting the ice wall, but the government isn't doing anything because cutting carbon emissions would damage the economy, and they only care about making money.

A2: Global Warming doesn't happen. It and it's counter-theory (Global Cooling) are effects that cancel each other out. Remember, these "greenhouse gasse" can reflect heat back out into space as well as keep it on Earth. Yes, there are recorded rises in temperature, but the only records we have go back, at most, around 150 years. This is very likely an occurence that happens every [x>150] years, that's happened before (perhaps many times), and that the Earth has thus survived before.

Q: "What about tides?"

A: The tides exist due to a slight see-saw effect on the earth. As it goes back and forth, the water rushes to the side that is lower. Note, this is a very slight wobble. Remember, these wobbles are created by very minor earthquakes. They keep the tides in check. Notice that large earthquakes result in large tides or "tsunami".

Q : "Why is the North pole colder than the equator?"

A: The sun orbits over the equator, not the North pole

Q: "How do volcanic eruptions happen?"

A: The Earth is thick enough to have a core of molten lava. Once there's too much of it in too confined a space, it finds it's way out, just like the water will come out of a full bottle if you squeeze it too hard

Q: "What about time zones?"

A: The sun is a spotlight which shines light on a concentrated area, so not everywhere on Earth will be lit at once. Times zones exist so that everyone's clock will be at 12:00 around the time the sun is approximately directly overhead.

Q: "What about Lunar Eclipses"

(Possible A) The moon isn't a spotlight; it glows with light from the sun, reflected off the Earth. Different parts of the Earth are more reflective than others (the seas, the polar cap, the ice wall, for example). Sometimes, the position of the sun (which is a spotlight) means that only very low-reflective or non-reflective parts of the Earth's surface are illuminated, so the moon is abnormally dark. This could potentially explain lunar phases as well.

Q: "How come the travel time by air from South America to New Zealand, via the polar route, is SHORTER than the travel time going North first and then South again?"

A: (Presumed answer: The airline pilots are misled by their GPS, or are deliberately conspiring to make it appear that the flights take different times)

Q: "When traveling in a straight direction, you will always reach the same point on the globe from where you started. How can this happen if the world is flat?"

A: You need to have evidence for this to be true. Also, define "straight." Remember, the northern point on the compass is, under most circumstances (unless near the centre or deep in the ice wall), pointing toward the centre of the Earth. Therefore, if you follow your compass due east or due west, ending up at the same point you started from, you've just gone around the world in a circle.


Q: "Are most or all FE's Biblical literalists, who feel like their religious belief system would be threatened by a round (i.e. spherical) earth, or are there any atheists/agnostics who are FE's as well?"

A: Not all FE's are biblical literalists. This poll has more details: Poll

Flat Earth Q&A / Wikipedia article on Alternate Science
« on: February 08, 2006, 11:38:19 AM »

Interesting read. Especially the reasons for anything being an alternate science:

1. Asserting claims without supporting experimental evidence;
2. Asserting claims which contradict experimentally established results;
3. Failing to provide an experimental possibility of reproducible results; or
4. Violating Occam's Razor (the principle of choosing the simplest explanation when multiple viable explanations are possible).

I believe the Flat Earth theory covers them all.

But more interesting is this part:

"Many of these theories are considered pathological science: a psychological process in which believers in a theory, who may have originally conformed to the scientific method, unconsciously veer from that method and begin a pathological process of wishful data interpretation. The term ironic science was used by John Horgan in his book The End of Science to describe a "speculative, non-empirical mode" that mainstream science sometimes enters."

I think it describes the flat earth theory quite well, don't you?

Flat Earth Q&A / There are four elephants and a turtle under the Earth!
« on: February 07, 2006, 01:37:03 AM »
The Earth is flat and it is pushed up by four elephants standing on a turtle!

Seriously though, what is making the Earth accelerate upwards?

Flat Earth Q&A / How do you know how high the ice wall is?
« on: February 06, 2006, 10:04:09 AM »
Flattie friends, how do you know how high the ice wall is? I thought no one had climbed it?

Flat Earth Q&A / Question to Flat-Earthers: What shape is the Earth?
« on: January 24, 2006, 01:25:17 PM »
This is not an argument, but in the spirit of fairness I'd like to learn something about your point of view.

Could you tell me what shape the Earth is (round, square, etc) and why?


Flat Earth Q&A / If God created the Earth...
« on: January 23, 2006, 01:27:42 PM »
if God created the Earth, and he is omnipotent, can he create an object so heavy that he can't lift it?

If he can't create it, he's not omnipotent.

If he can't lift it, he's not omnipotent.

What do you have to say to that?

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