Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Topics - John Davis

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 13
Suggestions & Concerns / Infinite Scroll
« on: September 20, 2017, 05:15:50 PM »
Would you like to scroll down, or do you like pages?

Flat Earth General / Convention At The Sunsphere
« on: September 20, 2017, 05:11:20 PM »
I'm just polling interest in those who would help run details at the national convention at the Sunsphere.

Announcements / Interviews, Radio and Paper
« on: August 22, 2017, 08:31:27 AM »
National Post. They took only a bit I said off handedly about the youtube community unfortunately due to them catching me right before publication while I was driving home from the eclipse. Get ready for the "John Is Illuminati" posts.

Secondly, this week on Idobi Radio Sam Scarlete will again be interviewing me, this time about  the non-existence of dinosaurs on her new show BLACKOUT. We will also touch on the flat earth. It will air Friday Night at 11pm EST / 8pm PST

Flat Earth General / Moon Madness Check-in
« on: August 21, 2017, 02:17:07 PM »
Making sure all our zetetics are here and accounted for - and sane - after the world wide viewing of the moon.

Simply reply with your current mental state.

Flat Earth General / Good point Bill Nye
« on: August 17, 2017, 04:00:08 PM »

Announcements / DOS Attack, Unscheduled downtime
« on: July 27, 2017, 03:30:29 PM »
Our server suffered a DOS attack today and was down. It is now (obviously) back up.

Flat Earth General / Thank you for all the mail!
« on: May 09, 2017, 11:49:13 PM »
The flat earth is stronger because of you!

Announcements / Downtime,Unplanned April 15-16
« on: April 16, 2017, 09:27:51 AM »
Our account got suspended in error. It is now resolved.

Announcements / New Platform - Beta Testers and Developers Needed
« on: February 28, 2017, 03:42:53 PM »
Anybody interested? I want to see if this improves our security / speed.

Flat Earth General / ASTROLOGY and the Flat Earth
« on: February 10, 2017, 05:15:43 PM »
In their scheme to hide god and his workings from us, The Roman Catholic Church - one of the first western bodies of power to take the banner of the globular pigswash that today eager students drink up,  has also hidden from us the truth about astrology.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss why and how this plays into their plans to hide God from us, if such plans exist, and how we might move forward with this knowledge. First to accomplish this nobel goal we must take on us the argument of whether Astrology is indeed a valid view of thought, whether its enemies (science and the Catholic church) acted rationally in their acceptance of it, and finally what their motives will be.  We start here at part I:


The Scientific Call To War: A Manifesto For Learned Men
Feyerabend, and others, report that in the October 1975 issue of the Humanist, 186 scientists - including a generous handful of Nobel Prize winners mind you - signed a manifesto against Astrology. They talk a great many words, and proudly proclaim astrology bunk with little to no argument. More than this, they include 186 signatures; if it was not clear the argument was not given, it should be when one considers the question - 'why so many signatures if their argument could be shown?'

 They are not interested in learned subjects here clearly - they act religiously. Now, mind you when I say religiously here what I, like the average globularist, actually mean is dogmatically; this is in contra-distinction to the definition I so often lean to from William James which I hold in the more general and less specific sense.

They are clearly trying to delude the mind of the common man with their position of power. Some have gone so far as to show the structure of this document was a replica of the Roman Catholic book on witchcraft. We will now destroy these myths, and publicly humiliate all those great men who signed such a ridiculous document. No, we will be kind enough not to 'name names.'

The Obvious Truth
Let us set aside now greater matters - that of the shape of the earth - and examine only those at hand. Don't worry flatists - we will come full circle and address the elephant in the room. The arguments presented will assume neither side, yet will fit the common flat earth model as well as the globular one. First we will turn to the definition presented here.

'the assumption that celestial events such as the positions of the planets, of the moon, of the sun influence human affairs'

This is the definition we will use for astrology. Here the avid Christian might laugh - there is no doubt from biblical context that these bodies indeed influence the earth. However, we march bravely on and face the fool on his own hill.

There is no doubt to the always staunt scientist that the heavenly bodies have a body of plasmas that are in a delicate balance with that of the sun. This of course is influenced by the relative placement of the planets - flat or round. For example, Bill Nye might find himself quite titillated at the thought that this interaction - and careful knowledge of the system at hand and the positions of the planets can predict solar disturbances with ridiculous clarity, in model independent mathematics. DeGrace just wouldn't know what he was looking at, but we all know what a silly man he is.

Further more, solar activity - and lunar as we know from other sources - has an almost all invasive hold on not only the basic functions of life itself, but of even chemical reactions. Though we've always known this; at least since Plato. More recently, the electric potential of trees depends not only on the activity of the sun, but on flares - which obviously tie to the position of the planets.

If you are an older fellow you might even remember the harvest moon - or not to put fish out in the dark of night. Now a days we go mad for 'super moons'.  Or heck, the interested fellow can direct himself to the nearest hospital. Here, he or she may ask the staff bluntly - 'do the crazies come out on the full moon?' This has particular effect on an actual full moon.

There is no doubt that any reasonable or reasonable led force (such as evolution) would lead us to a state that is not to appear as random chance and to appear created.

The effects of the moon are discussed in this forum at length. The effects, now, of the sun have been shown sufficiently or can be found by those interested. Or one can save their 20$ and simply use their common sense - of course the position of the sun, and thus the other planets, affect our lives.

Is there not always a chaos to the order? What of Sierpinski and his marvelous triangle? Even but a smidgen of order or evolution or holiness introduced into a chaotic system brings upon that system its own order - such that it can realize even in a pyramid of triangles in the simplest case. I digress...

There is no doubt the seasons affect our disposition. So much so, the ever growing book of psychological disorders now includes disorders for each season! The tale of astrology seems a little more likely, once we start talking about it discretely, doesn't it?

I do not have a physical copy, but it has been widely distributed. I source Feyerabend rather than others like Kurtz because I lean on some of his arguments - however the article is fairly well known and referenced in many astrological apologetics. I have reproduced it below:

Objections to Astrology

A Statement by 186 Leading Scientists

(The following statement first appeared in The Humanist of September/October 1975.)
Scientists in a variety of fields have become concerned about the increased acceptance of astrology in many parts of the world. We, the undersigned--astronomers, astrophysicists, and scientists in other fields--wish to caution the public against the unquestioning acceptance of the predictions and advice given privately and publicly by astrologers. Those who wish to believe in astrology should realize that there is no scientific foundation for its tenets.

In ancient times people believed in the predictions and advice of astrologers because astrology was part and parcel of their magical world view. They looked upon celestial objects as abodes or omens of the gods and, thus, intimately connected with events here on earth; they had no concept of the vast distances from the earth to the planets and stars. Now that these distances can and have been calculated, we can see how infinitesimally small are the gravitational and other effects produced by the distant planets and the far more distant stars. It is simply a mistake to imagine that the forces exerted by stars and planets at the moment of birth can in any way shape our futures. Neither is it true that the position of distant heavenly bodies make certain days or periods more favorable to particular kinds of action, or that the sign under which one was born determines one's compatibility or incompatibility with other people.

Why do people believe in astrology? In these uncertain times many long for the comfort of having guidance in making decisions. They would like to believe in a destiny predetermined by astral forces beyond their control. However, we must all face the world, and we must realize that our futures lie in ourselves, and not in the stars.

One would imagine, in this day of widespread enlightenment and education, that it would be unnecessary to debunk beliefs based on magic and superstition. Yet, acceptance of astrology pervades modern society. We are especially disturbed by the continued uncritical dissemination of astrological charts, forecasts, and horoscopes by the media and by otherwise reputable newspapers, magazines, and book publishers. This can only contribute to the growth of irrationalism and obscurantism. We believe that the time has come to challenge directly, and forcefully, the pretentious claims of astrological charlatans.

It should be apparent that those individuals who continue to have faith in astrology do so in spite of the fact that there is no verified scientific basis for their beliefs, and indeed that there is strong evidence to the contrary.

Sponsoring Committee

(Affiliations, as of 1975, given for identification only.)

Bart J. Bok, emeritus
Professor of Astronomy
University of Arizona

Lawrence E. Jerome
Science Writer
Santa Clara, California

Paul Kurtz
Professor of Philosophy
SUNY at Buffalo
Signed by 183 others, including 18 Nobel Prizewinners

The fact of the matter is that many of these signees know nothing about the subject matter which they claim false - this is evidenced by interviews with the subjects after the fact. Our friends at the BBC attempted to interview many of these nobel prizewinners and they declined - stating that they knew nothing of astrology and never studied it. Not only this, but within they make wild claims that 'In ancient times people believed in the predictions and advice of astrologers because astrology was part and parcel of their magical world view.' Where exactly did these men come by their convictions here? Not a one of them is an anthropologist...

Furthermore, I have shown with little to no effort that their base statement: "It is simply a mistake to imagine that the forces exerted by stars and planets at the moment of birth can in any way shape our futures" is complete bullocks. No argument is given here, except religious declaration, which I have shown false by simple use of solar flares.

Let us continue to show these men as religious nut jobs.

Oysters open and close their shells based on lunar events. Potatoes as well have their own lunar period. And man? what of him? Well, for one, solar flares have been linked to higher rates of cancer in pilots and astro'nots'. Some have even seen a brilliant flash of light due to them! This is an obvious fact. Standford goes so far as to call it 'space weather.' There is also no doubt that the movement of the heavenly bodies affects our seasons. Many insects are also affected by the heavenly bodies. One simply needs to shake a stick to find it pointing towards more evidence.

However, to full attack the claim "it is a mistake to imagine... [the] stars and planets at the moment of birth can in any way shape our futures" let us look at a 2012 study by Queen Mary University, London. In it, we see that month of birth indeed played quite the role in a great many lives. Winter babies are at the greatest risk for schizophrenia and bipolar disorder; spring babies depression. Other months show lows for these traits, thus again providing a correlative link between the planets locations and the 'shape of our futures'.

You can hardly pick out a sentence without finding complete bullocks. "They would like to believe in a destiny predetermined by astral forces beyond their control. " Is it not quite the popular opinion among scientists, and demonstrably some of those signees, that determinism is a valid point of view?

Flat Earth General / Does Trump Know The True Shape Of The Earth
« on: February 04, 2017, 10:34:01 AM »
Did they let him in on the secret when he became president? Did he already know?

Suggestions & Concerns / What time is it?
« on: January 31, 2017, 10:09:40 PM »

Announcements / Interview with Ectoplasm
« on: January 22, 2017, 05:20:10 PM »
Sorry for the delay.

Announcements / Stuff For Membership
« on: January 22, 2017, 05:18:27 PM »
We have finally received the plates for printing copies of Representation of the True World Map. I'll take a picture of the prototype.

Also, tshirts soon.

Also, I'll be processing the post memberships I've received up until now this week along with a youtube video showcasing the interesting postcards we've received.

Flat Earth General / The Shipping Crate Experiment
« on: January 22, 2017, 03:47:43 PM »
Any man, or able bodied woman, can view the flat earth for him or herself with ease using this simple experiment (and many others!)

Should they find themselves at a dock, they need only slip the foreman a 20 dollar bill to view the inside of a shipping crate. Be careful, and tread lightly as you likely won't be accustomed to the 'shipyard banter' that often fills these locations. Now, at sunrise, within your shipping crate that is facing sunrise, with one end unbarred, take note of how the light illuminates the crate during the sunrise. If, as we are told, the earth is round then we would expect the top of the crate to be illuminated first - as it should have a better vantage point for the sun as it rises above a horizon.

You might well save your time though, as any dockworker will testify - the crate is not lit in this manner at all. This is yet another proof that the earth is not a spinning round ball hurtling through space at ridiculous speeds in some sort of celestial race, but instead a plane as our senses and logic dictates it must be.

It serves as yet another reason any thinking sailor since the dawn of time has known - the Earth is Flat.

Suggestions & Concerns / Tasks For Today, Suggest some more!
« on: October 29, 2016, 12:07:00 PM »
These are the changes I'll be making this weekend.

  • Investigate slightly stronger password storage
  • Assess some of the hacking damage
  • Bigger Buttons on Mobile
  • Sign-up
  • Forum link on front page
  • Mail Correspondence
  • Examine custom caching mechanisms for 'unread posts' and possible custom algorithms for a similar page.
  • Chose a mobile platform for our webapp.
  • Review changes
  • Complete-nonsense lag on safari
  • Emails

Announcements / Hacked, Downtime today from 6am until 2pm.
« on: September 21, 2016, 10:57:59 AM »
We got hacked.

Flat Earth General / Evidences Of The Flat Earth (On Going @142)
« on: September 03, 2016, 10:09:00 PM »
The fact is I'm embarrassed with the riches of evidence that the Earth is not a Planet. This list is intended as an ongoing account of reasons and evidences I've read, heard, or otherwise have been related to me for belief in the Flat Earth.

  • Find the curve! You can't. Every experience we have says it's flat - from the beach to Mount Everest to a plane.
  • Lack of Curvature in Planes
  • Curvature has not been seen at heights of 38,000 ft+
  • The only evidence showing curvature is from Big Science.
  • Weather balloons routinely show a  flat earth unless distorted by the lens - often we'll see this happen as it appears concave/convex/ and flat alternating.  There is no law of optics that would allow a body to appear flat if it was indeed round.
  • You can see Rotspitze, Collalto, GroBglockner, Rote Spitze, Sass De Putia and Sass Rigais from the same spot with no curvature. Also Rauchkofel.
  • Shots of Blue Origin from space and from earth show that curvature is seen at ground level the same as from low earth orbit. This proves curvature seen from space is determined by how it was filmed.
  • We are too small to see curvature yet boats can be seen to dip below a hill of water?!
  • Water has been determined experimentally to be level. If the earth was round, and spun, water would not be level.
  • The Bedford Level Experiment (Rowbotham, Shenton, Blount, et al)
  • No distortion in reflections in ocean curvature.
  • Lake Quinsigamond is level. "The writer, with a first-class mechanic and a well-known up-to-date photographer, made a trip to Lake Quinsigamond on the 2nd day of June, 1908, and tried the same experiment in practically the same way, and took a photograph of the scene, which proved beyond any doubt in the minds of those present, that the water in that lake was level on the surface, and so acknowledged by the photographer who still believes the Earth is a Globe."  Charles William Morse (author of Unpopular Truth...)
  • No consideration is made in architecture of large constructions for curvature of earth.
  • No consideration is made in the construction of the Suez Canal - it forms a straight and level surface of water (Carpenter)
  • Danyang-Kunshan Grand Bridge, China. 102.4 Mile long bridge does not compensate properly for the curvature of the earth
  • The walls of tall buildings can be found to be parallel.
  • Lake Pontchartrain Causeway, Metairie, LA - 23.87 miles long with 380 Feet of missing curvature.
  • The locks at Gatun lake would be impossible on a globe.
  • Curvature not allowed for in construction of railways. The London and North Western Railway between London and Liverpool  forms a line of 180 miles. The highest point, midway, as at Birmingham station, which is 240 feet above the leve of the sea at london and Liverpool. On a globe the chord of the arc between London and Liverpool would be at Birmingham 5,400  feet above sealevel at london and Liverpool added to which the actual height of the station between of 240 feet and we have 5,640 ft. Not one inch was allowed for. (Terra Firma 126)
  • . The Great Canal of China, 700 miles in length, was made without regard to any allowance for curvature as the Chinese rightfully believed the Earth to be flat and stationary.  (Carpenter)
  • Likewise for the North Sea Canal.(TF 134)
  • Likewise for the Manchester Ship Canal. (TF 134)
  • We can see further than expected many places on earth. I get several messages a month from folks in distant areas showing me photographs of locations far beyond the curvature. I myself grew up on Lake Ontario and could see the CN tower far further away than I should have as well as the Toronto Skyline.
  • Lighthouses can be seen further than one would expect. Cape Hatteras is seen at 40 miles, which should be 900 feet above the sea level to be visible. This is not the case (Carpenter)
  • Balcony of the alps you can see for  190 miles - no curvature.
  • The Erego Light in Norway is 154 feet above water and visible from 28 miles - it should be 230 feet below the horizon.
  • You can restore the sunken hull of a ship using a telescope. Since telescopes don't peer through a hill of water, the earth must be flat. (Carpenter) This has been replicated by former forum user Tom Bishop.
  • At Rock City you can pay to "See Seven States" an impossibility on a round earth.
  • August 1890 C manoeuvre Fleet signalled with Search Light to colliers 70 miles away; "According to Astronomers these vessels should have been 3,200 feet below the horizon, allowing for a height of 40 feet on the signalling vessel, and 26 on the colliers!!!" Pearsons Weekly related through Terra Firma
  • Daily Mail of 10th Nov 1899 relates Search-light at Kimberley visible at a distance of 115 miles. (Terra Firma)
  • Everything we know and feel says it doesn't spin.
  • We'd feel the rotational acceleration.
  • Air does not feel this acceleration. Winds aren't rushing by us in one direction as gravity would dictate. (Ptolemy)
  • So would projectiles - we've talked to experts and they say the don't account for that. Snipers and Ballistics experts we have interviewed do not account for coriolis effects (Mark Sargent)
  • No difference in the distance bullets travel against or with the supposed rotation (Carpenter)
  • Train tracks degrade eveny on both sides - if the earth rotated they would be more worn on one side.  Railroads have even wear in spite of Coriolis effects.
  • A gun shot upwards, rather than with or against the curvature, falls near the gun - not a ridiculous distance away due to the movement of the planet. (Carpenter)
  • Foucault Pendulums must be controlled magnetically to achieve real results as they are in most museums
  • As often as not the Foucault pendulum travels the incorrect direction!
  • Long range ballistics don't take into account the shape of the earth or its rotation
  • If earth were rotating at 1,000 MPH while revolving at 66,600 MPH around the sun as the sun is traveling at 450,00 MPH gyroscopes would be going nuts.
  • Rotation would be noticed in rabbit eye photographs like those studied by Ter Braak.
  • Rotation would be noticed when moving latitudes, as per the Mulder Law.
  • A helicopter cannot hover in still motion and expect the earth to rotate below him. S. Shenton, Henriet
  • "They say the earth is round, both land and water, and that they are always moving around the sun. But if you ask them how the water keeps in its bed while the earth is turning, they will tell you to take a pail of water and swing it fast and see, for the water will not come out until the pail is slowed down.Who has seen the earth turn around in the way that a person turns a pail? No one. And as long as no one has ever seen or felt the earth turn, you need not believe it so."  Enlightenment of the World
  • Tycho Brahe argued against the rotating earth as if the earth revolved around the sun, the relative position of the stars would change a lot - they measured at intervals of six months and found that they were in exactly the same position as they had been. (Winship)
  • "If the Earth did move at a tremendous speed, how could we keep a grip on it with our feet? ... should find it slipping rapidly under our footsteps. ... Then, which way is it turning? If we walked in the direction of its tremendous speed, it would push us on terribly rapidly." Missen in The Sun Goes Round the Earth
  • Airplanes would stand still when flying at the rate of spin of the Earth in the same direction of spin. Henriet, Heaven and Earth
  • How are the moon phases are lit in seemingly impossible ways when both the sun and moon are in sky?
  • Daytime lunar eclipses as noted by Kepler.  Over 50 Lunar Eclipses have been reported while the Sun is in the sky. How can a lunar eclipse happen when the three bodies are not in a straight line? We are given the answer that its because of refraction. Charles Fort would call this attempted positivism and I happen to agree. The necessity to conform all damned facts to orthodoxy is strong within the indoctrinated. Luckily Samuel Rowbotham gives us a simple experiment to debunk this in ENaG.
  • The lunar eclipse is red. If this was caused by refraction and rayleigh scattering, we'd see a red tint to the everything during the lunar eclipse. Instead, only the moon is red.
  • The moon is semi-transparent. Many reports historically and in moderns times have been given where one can see stars through the moon.
  • The moon's light is of a different nature than the sun - it has its own set of dangerous properties.
  • "We have seen that during a Lunar Eclipse the Moon's self-luminous surface is covered by a semi-transparent 'something'; and this 'something' is a definite mass, because it has a distinct and circular outline, as seen during its first and last contact with the Moon. As a Solar Eclipse occurs from the Moon passing before the Sun, so, from the evidence above collected, it is evidence that a Lunar Eclipse arises from a similar cause. A body, semi-transparent and well defined, passing before the Moon; or between the Moon's surface and the observe on the surface of the Earth. " Zetetic Astronomy
  • Navigation at sea is done through "Plane Sailing"
  • The surveyor's plans for the first Atlantic Telegraph cable show that in 1665 miles - from Valentia Ireland to St. John's Newfoundland - the surface of the Atlantic ocean is a level surface. (Carpenter)
  • The Nile flows 1000 miles with a drop of only 1 foot , Terra Firma
  • Lake Baikal, Siberia - 400 Miles long. One of the flattest places on earth.
  • Impossibility of South based Circumnavigation.
  • Commercial air travel routes for the Southern hemisphere are wrong (Sargent)
  • As circumnavigation is often evidenced for the round earth, the fact that all possible circumnavigations are possible on a flat earth must also be evidence for the flat earth.
  • All flight paths in Northern Hemisphere work. Southern GPS has issues (Sargent)
  • The distance in the Southern Hemisphere is twice that of the Northern (Terra Firma)


  • Antarctic extended daylight times did not match up for me with expected values from almanacs and on board navigation experts
  • Shadows of sticks in various locations show a flat earth with a sun rotating above it (Rowbotham)
  • Shadows of sticks in various locations show a flat earth by Taoist scholars
  • Rays of light are not parallel when passing through clouds from sun.
  • Reflections of the sun on the earths surface
  • The vacuum of space would rip the gas off our planet
  • No vacuum has ever been created, yet we are to believe space is a vacuum
  • The changing heavens and the appearance and disappearance of stars is often cited as evidence for the round earth. It is also evidence towards the idea that "The stars are set in a hemispherical dome so close to the earth that all cannot be seen at the same time" - Voliva.
  • The North Star has been seen below the equator more than 20 degrees south. (Carpenter) This is only possible on a flat earth.
  • No pilot, ever, has adjusted for the Coriolis effect in any stage of flight. The Earth spins at 1040 miles per hour.

The Lounge / Flat Earth Music
« on: August 21, 2016, 07:22:29 AM »
I'd love to get a list of all the music done here by flat earthers about flat earthers and do a feature or blog post on it; maybe add it to the library if the creators don't mind.

I remember there were a few of these but would love any help procuring them.

Flat Earth General / Stability of the Infinite Plane Earth
« on: August 05, 2016, 05:44:35 PM »
An interesting study was done by Splitzer that gives very specific constraints to an infinite flat earth, namely if one was made of gas. Of course its use was for different purposes, but it still serves as a basis and jumping board.

Common sense tells us it will be stable - for each particle is influenced by a sum of vectors against it that will always tends toward 0, if not as a uniform plane - will be 0. However, when we look at in-plane stress as one of our forum users did, we see a different story - where the stress turns out to be infinite! Now, to me, I would make the axiom based on our common knowledge, sense experience and otherwise - not upon the frivolous and less elegant posture that claims far more axioms.

Above that, you can see due to the relatively small and diminishing affect of gravity, this only really has a notable area of examination in space, and usually there we are in microgravity.

But hey, even if it does collapse to an infinite sphere, which would have a flat curvature, at least we know it will take forever to reach it. If you could tell the difference between the two to begin with.

Announcements / Unscheduled Downtime: Aug 5, ~4am EST [NT]
« on: August 05, 2016, 01:55:21 AM »
Unscheduled Downtime: Aug 5, ~4am EST [NT]

Flat Earth General / So, who wants to play NASA Photoshop Tennis?
« on: July 31, 2016, 04:00:50 AM »
Because I really can't stop laughing at this one.

Those NASA guys really make this too easy, don't they? They are going to put me out of a job.

Announcements / Mark Sargent Interview
« on: July 30, 2016, 06:29:50 PM »
We did a quick interview with friend and member of the Society, Mark Sargent.

Transcript added.

Suggestions & Concerns / New Registration Captcha
« on: July 30, 2016, 02:04:29 PM »
Hopefully will help things. Added the no-captcha captcha.

Suggestions & Concerns / Themes
« on: July 30, 2016, 04:20:21 AM »
11 users are going to notice their themes are gone right now. I'm assessing the situation and will have an update on when and if they will return.

Announcements / Scheduled Downtime: Friday July 29th 2016 9:00am - ?
« on: July 29, 2016, 01:10:07 AM »
Performing maintenance.

Flat Earth General / Map Images
« on: July 28, 2016, 03:38:34 PM »
I'd love to expand our map section on the main site. Does anybody have any maps they'd like to submit?

Announcements / Unscheduled Degraded Performance - Today.
« on: July 28, 2016, 05:19:51 AM »
Doing stuff.

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 13