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Messages - Canadark

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31
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« on: June 19, 2010, 05:43:47 AM »
Some Christians are of the belief that the gifts of knowledge, wisdom, tongues, and prophecy ended with the era of the Apostles.

32
I agree with Babs here, and his position is representative of the prevailing view among Protestants. All believers are saints and are part of the Christian priesthood. We are all equally entitled to access to God and to perform Christian rites and ceremonies (such as baptism and communion).

33
Yes, but the point is that the Pope actively denies having that combination, he denies condoms! The church has made aid conditional on not giving out condoms, the pope has spread the lie that condoms make it worse!

When are you going to get it into your head that not all Christians believe the same thing.

As soon as it stops being an oxymoron. They're a single religion, if they didn't believe the same thing then they wouldn't be.

Do you think that all Christians have to believe that one flavour of ice cream is superior to all the others?

If the scriptures say so, then yeah. There would probably be genocides over which one though, unless that was very clearly specified.

So then you believe that Christians should only be expected to agree over those things that are clearly explained in the Bible. I agree.

34
Yes, but the point is that the Pope actively denies having that combination, he denies condoms! The church has made aid conditional on not giving out condoms, the pope has spread the lie that condoms make it worse!

When are you going to get it into your head that not all Christians believe the same thing.

As soon as it stops being an oxymoron. They're a single religion, if they didn't believe the same thing then they wouldn't be.

Do you think that all Christians have to believe that one flavour of ice cream is superior to all the others?

35
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« on: June 18, 2010, 05:16:41 PM »
Guys, it's very simple:

This is a guilt story.  This story is designed to make us feel guilty about being Human and not following God's rules.  Without guilt, why would we follow religion?


But assuming God is real...

I think that God put that fruit there hoping they'd eat it.  By disobeying God, they show they have their own will.  They show that they are more than mindless servants of God.  And it shows that they are ready to move on into the world and make their own decisions.  We do that to our children.  We coddle them, tell them what to do, where to go, how to dress, ect... but eventually we hope that they make these decisions themselves.  When they do, they can go out into the world and survive without their parents.

God didn't put the fruit there hoping the would eat it, he put it their knowing they would eat it.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« on: June 18, 2010, 05:14:48 PM »
Quote
Even if Adam and Eve understood at the most basic level that what they were doing was wrong and still did it

But. They. Didn't!

That is the whole point of the tree of knowledge!

Give me the chapter and verse you are referring to because I can't find it.

The fact that God told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge is evidence enough that they at least were capable of understanding that they were not supposed to eat it, even if they did not understand sin beyond that single act. Otherwise why would God have told them anything?

That's a good question. Why did God bother telling them anything when He's all knowing and would already know what Eve would do.

They needed to be tested. The covenant he made with Adam and Eve was that they could stay in fellowship with him so long as they were obedient. He decided not to throw them out before they ate the fruit on the grounds that they hadn't actually committed any sin yet. Sort of like The Minority Report.

Why did Adam and Eve need to be tested? God already knew what would happen, because it was planned.

37
Perseverance of the Saints FTW.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« on: June 18, 2010, 05:11:41 PM »
Canadark, why won't you actually answer any questions? The fuck?

What question? *sob*

Canadark, which you love more?

CANADA or GOD?!

lol :P

39
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« on: June 17, 2010, 01:57:22 PM »
Quote
Even if Adam and Eve understood at the most basic level that what they were doing was wrong and still did it

But. They. Didn't!

That is the whole point of the tree of knowledge!

Give me the chapter and verse you are referring to because I can't find it.

The fact that God told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge is evidence enough that they at least were capable of understanding that they were not supposed to eat it, even if they did not understand sin beyond that single act. Otherwise why would God have told them anything?

That's a good question. Why did God bother telling them anything when He's all knowing and would already know what Eve would do.

They needed to be tested. The covenant he made with Adam and Eve was that they could stay in fellowship with him so long as they were obedient. He decided not to throw them out before they ate the fruit on the grounds that they hadn't actually committed any sin yet. Sort of like The Minority Report.

If you're talking about the movie, the people were stopped before they committed the murder. Which would make sense: if the apple wasn't meant for humanity, why was it even put in the Garden, and why, knowing they'd eat the apple, did God not throw them out before then so they wouldn't suffer from the 'curse' of the apple?

And can anyone answer the question that started off this thread?

The moral dilemma of the movie wasn't that the people were being stopped, but that they were being punished for committing the crimes that hadn't even happened yet.

The OP didn't seem to understand that the verses from Deuteronomy and Ezekiel related specifically to the sins of the Israelites under the Mosaic covenant. By the simple fact that all generations are still guilty, we can see that the declarations from Deuteronomy and Ezekiel didn't cover original sin.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« on: June 17, 2010, 01:51:43 PM »
Well Gen 2 9 is clear that this is the tree of good and evil. genesis 2 25 says they felt no shame.

to be fair it doesn't go into a great deal of detail about the levels of conscience and knowledge of good end evil that Adam and Eve have in the single chapter dealing with it but it is interesting that when the snake asks them whether they can eat from the tree Eve repeats God's instructions parrot-fashion.

In C3 V6 Eve has no qualms about eating the fruit after the snake has told her to, no moments of moral dilemma, no serious pondering, which is interesting since she just repeated the instruction seconds before, to me that tells me that when the snake said it was ok she believed instantly, this is not the action of someone who has any sense of right or wrong.

(before you ask, my Bible is the NIV youth Bible given to me when I was confirmed at about 15)

I understand your interpretation, but it is not spelled out explicitly so. Likewise, scripture is not specific enough for me to rule out the possibility that you are indeed correct. Thus I see two possible and perfectly valid explanations:

God deprived them of the knowledge of all good and evil and set them up for failure so that his master plan for humanity could proceed.

God gave them knowledge of good and evil insofar as how it related to the fruit, while depriving them of all other understanding, but still knew that they would fail his test so that his master plan for humanity could proceed.

Either way, I suppose God was behind it all.

41
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« on: June 17, 2010, 01:44:39 PM »
Quote
Even if Adam and Eve understood at the most basic level that what they were doing was wrong and still did it

But. They. Didn't!

That is the whole point of the tree of knowledge!

Give me the chapter and verse you are referring to because I can't find it.

The fact that God told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge is evidence enough that they at least were capable of understanding that they were not supposed to eat it, even if they did not understand sin beyond that single act. Otherwise why would God have told them anything?

That's a good question. Why did God bother telling them anything when He's all knowing and would already know what Eve would do.

They needed to be tested. The covenant he made with Adam and Eve was that they could stay in fellowship with him so long as they were obedient. He decided not to throw them out before they ate the fruit on the grounds that they hadn't actually committed any sin yet. Sort of like The Minority Report.

42
Yes, but the point is that the Pope actively denies having that combination, he denies condoms! The church has made aid conditional on not giving out condoms, the pope has spread the lie that condoms make it worse!

When are you going to get it into your head that not all Christians believe the same thing.

43
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« on: June 17, 2010, 01:30:14 PM »
Quote
Even if Adam and Eve understood at the most basic level that what they were doing was wrong and still did it

But. They. Didn't!

That is the whole point of the tree of knowledge!

Give me the chapter and verse you are referring to because I can't find it.

The fact that God told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge is evidence enough that they at least were capable of understanding that they were not supposed to eat it, even if they did not understand sin beyond that single act. Otherwise why would God have told them anything?

44
My favourite quote on this is from Stephen fry, who has done a great deal of work with AIDS in Africa

"There was a time when [Uganda] had the highest incidence rates of HIV/AIDs in the world but through an amazing initiative called ABC:

Abstinence,
Be faithful
Correct use of condoms

Those three, and I'm not denying that abstinence is a very good way of not getting AIDs it really is, it works; so does being faithful but so do condoms and do not deny it!"

I don't really care what combination of techniques works best so long as it works, and neither should you. In a lot of these countries there exists a strong taboo against using condoms. Education on safe-sex can do a lot, but for many, encouraging abstinence from sex with multiple partners is the most realistic solution to curbing the spread of HIV.

45
Quote
so long as it works

And clearly it doesn't.

I was under the impression that the abstinence program in Uganda had been relatively successful.

Who told you that?

The BBC and the Guttmacher Institute. :-[

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4433069.stm
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/5/gr060501.html

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« on: June 17, 2010, 01:18:39 PM »
If God didn't want them to have knowledge of good and evil (right and wrong).  Then why did he put the tree there in the first place?

I don't accept the premise of your question.

No, the fruit gave them the knowledge of good and evil. Until then they could not make an informed decision. How could they know what a lie or a deception is? As far as they are concerned the word of the serpent is equally valid to the word of God as they have no standards by which to assess knowledge.

They understood completely that God told them not to eat the fruit, and that the serpent to whom they owed no allegiance told them to do the exact opposite. We can see this in Genesis 3:2-3.

Are you arguing that because they did not fully comprehend the consequences of their actions insofar as understanding at a philosophical level what is good and what is evil, that they are absolved of any wrongdoing?

I'm not disputing the snake told them to do the exact opposite, in fact it's central to my argument.

But they did not know that following allegiances was right and breaking them was wrong. If they could then in what respect can the fruit be said to have imparted any knowledge?

It's like a baby stealing a biscuit, we know it's wrong, the baby doesn't and we try to impart that knowledge to the baby by telling it off, we don't throw it out onto the streets!

The point I am trying to make is that I see no reason to believe that Adam and Eve did not have knowledge of the value of allegiance, but even if they didn't, we are starting to get into the whole issue of God's sovereignty all over again.

Even if Adam and Eve understood at the most basic level that what they were doing was wrong and still did it, the fact remains that God knew that this would take place, and as the author and creator of the universe, he willed that it would happen. Their disobedience plays an important part in the story of humanity which eventually culminated in the coming of Jesus Christ and the redemption of mankind. Not all Christians would agree with me, but I am of the belief that God not only knew, but planned that he would eventually send his son to die for our sins from the very beginning.

47
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Faust
« on: June 17, 2010, 01:05:19 PM »
To Christians and other believers in the Devil. Do you believe it is possible to 'do a deal' with the devil? And would you ever consider it?

No, although I am curious as to where this question is leading.

48
Quote
so long as it works

And clearly it doesn't.

I was under the impression that the abstinence program in Uganda had been relatively successful.

49
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« on: June 17, 2010, 12:56:44 PM »
No, the fruit gave them the knowledge of good and evil. Until then they could not make an informed decision. How could they know what a lie or a deception is? As far as they are concerned the word of the serpent is equally valid to the word of God as they have no standards by which to assess knowledge.

They understood completely that God told them not to eat the fruit, and that the serpent to whom they owed no allegiance told them to do the exact opposite. We can see this in Genesis 3:2-3.

Are you arguing that because they did not fully comprehend the consequences of their actions insofar as understanding at a philosophical level what is good and what is evil, that they are absolved of any wrongdoing?

50
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« on: June 17, 2010, 12:40:40 PM »
God told them not to eat the fruit, but then the serpent came along and told them it would be OK. They didn't have the ability to detect evil in the snake, because they were innocent.  I don't understand why God punished Adam and Eve, when he should have punished the serpent for tricking them.

Will, God did punish the serpent but regardless, are you assuming that they weren't able to tell the difference between God and the snake and make an informed decision about who they should follow?

If you have no sense of right or wrong, you can't know that the serpent is lying because as far as you're aware everything is the truth.

They obviously did have a sense of right and wrong insofar as it related to the fruit on the tree. God and the serpent both gave them completely contradictory instructions regarding the fruit. They made a deliberate decision not to obey their creator.

51
Back to the sex ed stuff...

I went to an all male private catholic school in one of the southern states and they taught us to use condoms.  You may understand why I find it odd that other schools in other places teach abstinence only.

Some states demand Abstinence Only. Like Texas. Heck, Bush made a bill for groups to go into Africa and teach them abstinence as a way to control the spread of AIDS.

What a succesful campaign. South Africa is now the AIDS capitol of the world

I heard it worked pretty well in Uganda. I imagine that in some of these places it is hard to get condoms.

Especially when you have pricks like Darth Sidious telling them that they'll go to Hell for using them...

I don't really care what combination of techniques works best so long as it works, and neither should you. In a lot of these countries there exists a strong taboo against using condoms. Education on safe-sex can do a lot, but for many, encouraging abstinence from sex with multiple partners is the most realistic solution to curbing the spread of HIV.

52
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: A Thought On Original Sin
« on: June 17, 2010, 10:13:40 AM »
In the Bible, it states that Adam and Eve's sons, Cain and Abel, "found wives." How the hell?

Their sisters. This has been answered a few time now.

An additional comment, if man did not know the difference between good and evil before eating the fruit of knowledge, how could they have known that eating of the fruit was wrong?  God did not give us the ability to reason right and wrong, why punish us when we end up doing something wrong?

God told them not to eat it, I don't think this has anything to do with good or evil. They were obviously aware that eating it would go against what their father had instructed them to do, so in that respect their knowledge of what was right and wrong was narrowed to a single decision. Just as children might not be able to wrap their head around the concept of sin, they are capable of making decisions to follow the directions of their parents.


Then, later, God wipes out the world except for about 12 people, all related by blood or marriage.  We now have close to 10 billion people of varying skin color, facial features, and genetic profiles.  AND  the minimum population to retain genetic diversity and ensure a stable population is about 120 people. 

Kinda makes you wonder doesn't it?

Yeah! It is almost as if God had something to do with it.

53
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Does design = designer?
« on: June 17, 2010, 10:05:51 AM »
Science by definition doesn't allow for supernatural explanations for things that we can observe. It provides a perfectly valid and sufficient means of explaining the origins of the universe and the human race, but only if you choose to believe that supernatural explanations are always invalid.

And no, the appearance of design does not require a designer, but it would seem to suggest it.

54
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« on: June 17, 2010, 09:59:12 AM »
Is Heaven a physical place? Is hell? Are they both "real" in a sense that they are available to us, but we just haven't "crossed the boundary" to these realms, or do they, as God, exist outside of the natural universe? If so, why? And how do our souls, which arguably exist in the natural universe bound to us, cross over, if we can't?

I dunno.

Oh, and I gotta question regarding gays.

You know how some people say that a gay can become straight if he has the will to? Does the same apply to straights; could they become gay if they have the will to?

You'll have to ask the people who say that a gay can become straight.

Quote
Who are you to say...

I'll tell you who I am.

I am the product of a thousand thousand generations of successful parents, I am the sum of the million million cells which compete and cooperate to be me. I am the totality of my thousands and thousands of events and experiences, of loss and of joy, of memories and dreams.

Through all my victories and defeats, I am human and I am a free man, I have the sole sovereignty over my body and mind and fuck anyone who tries to claim otherwise.
Fucking sigged.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, Maximus.

55
Back to the sex ed stuff...

I went to an all male private catholic school in one of the southern states and they taught us to use condoms.  You may understand why I find it odd that other schools in other places teach abstinence only.

Some states demand Abstinence Only. Like Texas. Heck, Bush made a bill for groups to go into Africa and teach them abstinence as a way to control the spread of AIDS.

What a succesful campaign. South Africa is now the AIDS capitol of the world

I heard it worked pretty well in Uganda. I imagine that in some of these places it is hard to get condoms.

56
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« on: June 12, 2010, 03:17:26 PM »
To say that God is immoral for allowing and preordaining sin to exist in the world and for punishing those of us who commit acts of sin is to reject the idea of God's sovereignty.
So in other words, God can be as sadistic and cruel as he wants to us and it's perfectly moral, because he created us? That the relationship between Man and God is the same as between slave and master, owned and owner?

Absolutely.

@BiJane; this isn't exactly rocket science. If we accept that God is omnipotent (and seeing as how he created the universe, it would make sense that he is) then it stands to reason that he asked them those questions for some other reason than him being confused.

Is Satan evil?
What about the being who created and knew everything Satan was going to do? Surely the being which chooses to damn billions for eternity and who creates the devil must be considered a greater evil.

Who are you to say that the sovereign God of the universe cannot use those individuals he has selected to fulfill his ultimate plan? Is he not sovereign? Are we not depraved? The Bible says that God is sovereign, man is depraved, and Satan actively works against the kingdom of God. Who am I to argue that God's plan is not good enough for me? I can only take joy in the knowledge that he saw me as being worthy of election and, as far as you and I can possibly know right now, you as well.

57
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: FUBAR
« on: June 12, 2010, 03:12:01 PM »
I'm just saying that it's silly to automatically assume that the BP executives are just going to skate over it.

I agree, that sounds dangerous. You'd think it would clog up the props on the boats.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« on: June 12, 2010, 03:07:57 PM »
To say that God is immoral for allowing and preordaining sin to exist in the world and for punishing those of us who commit acts of sin is to reject the idea of God's sovereignty.
So in other words, God can be as sadistic and cruel as he wants to us and it's perfectly moral, because he created us? That the relationship between Man and God is the same as between slave and master, owned and owner?

Absolutely.

@BiJane; this isn't exactly rocket science. If we accept that God is omnipotent (and seeing as how he created the universe, it would make sense that he is) then it stands to reason that he asked them those questions for some other reason than him being confused.

59
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« on: June 11, 2010, 08:09:50 PM »
A being of infinite knowledge, even if it is of just the present, would already know where Adam and Eve were hiding, would already know who told them they were naked, would already know that they ate from the tree, and why, and would have no need to ask.  So why would he?

It is the same thing as a mom asking her kid what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar when his face is covered in crumbs and chocolate chips.


You are making the mistake of applying your own morality to God, When you come to understand that God is not human and bound by human perceptions of what is right and wrong, you will understand

Like so many people on this forum, the pieces of scripture you refer to are either taken out of context or invented in your own mind.

60
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Ask a Christian anything.
« on: June 11, 2010, 08:01:27 PM »
These are all perfectly valid points, but what does this have to do with God's morality? We have already established that God is supreme, and that man, for lack of a better word, is a lump of clay. I am not denying that God created the conditions that allowed for sin to enter the world, I am only saying that his ability to predict our actions doesn't give us a free pass to commit sin or reject the gospel of Christ. All the sin and suffering in the world fits into the story of the universe, of which we are all pieces, and God is the ultimate author because he set it into motion.

To say that God is immoral for allowing and preordaining sin to exist in the world and for punishing those of us who commit acts of sin is to reject the idea of God's sovereignty.

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