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Messages - Curiouser and Curiouser

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991
Flat Earth Debate / Re: What IS the official map for FE discussions?
« on: January 08, 2018, 07:18:01 AM »
There are many FEers who will no longer accept "the Wiki" or "the FAQ", including of course, sceptimatic, JRoweSkeptic, brotherhood of the dome and now Curioser and Curioser and of course John Davis.
Whoa! Where did I ever say that I (despite your misspelling) was a FEer?

I did, however, tell you "The assumptions you make may not necessarily be true."

'Nuff said.

... I'm pretty sure Brotherhood and Curious are similar) ...

Nope.

992
If you are asking “how is it done”, the primary method for small spacecraft like satellites is reaction wheels.
While reaction wheels are the preferred method for satellites that require ultra-precision pointing and stability (astronomical telescopes and the like), for small satellites in low Earth orbit that need to change orientation slowly (like keeping pointed at Earth) a system using torque rods or "magnetorquers" is a much more reliable method. Electromagnets interact with the Earth's magnetic field to produce enough torque to rotate the satellite. No moving parts means much higher MTBF. Failure of a reaction wheel can cripple a mission, as in the case of Kepler.

993
No. I claim that Pinky's assertion that this "...settles the dispute Flat-Earth-vs-Spherical-Earth forever and ever!" is an invalid argument
Which is not what you said at all.
Have the intellectual honesty to quote me in full "No. I claim that Pinky's assertion that this "...settles the dispute Flat-Earth-vs-Spherical-Earth forever and ever!" is an invalid argument, because Pinky is assuming that one representation is an accurate map. It's not, hence you can't draw that conclusion. I don't assert anything else," and then go back and read my first post. If you can't see that they are equivalent, then we have no further basis for discussion.

994
That entry by Jack, an Administrator of the Society and the authority putting his name to the FAQ says rather more than the map is not definitive.
It also says with no ifs and buts, that the earth is in the form of a disk with the North Pole in the center and Antarctica as a wall around the edge This is the generally accepted model among members of the society..
Now, with those constraints there may be no definitive map, but there is little choice as to the general continental layout.

Logical fallacy of argumentum ad verecundiam, the "appeal to authority." Strike one.

If you disagree with "the Wiki" and "the FAQ", why don't you replace most of with, "The FES hasn't a clue on xxxxx, but the earth looks flat, so it must be flat."

Logical fallacy of onus probandi, "shifting the burden of proof," and the strawman fallacy. Strikes two and three.

Yes, certainly, "reading is fundamental". Now what was the point I missed again?
"Here is picture of a proposed, but certainly not definitive, flat earth." You insist the "map" is accepted and accurate. It's not. Therefore Pinky's experiment is logically invalid.

By the way I live in Australia and down here it would seem to my limited understand that any flat earth continental layout would indicate east-west distances at least twice the my GPS navigator map distances.

Like to comment?

Now *you're* chosing a map (call it a continental layout). Strawman, strawman, strawman.

PS Have you driven in Iceland and South Africa yourself?

Again, shifting the burden of proof. Irrelevant because I didn't make the arguments related to driving. Pinky did.

Ill-formed arguments littered with logical fallacies do nothing to support your viewpoint.

995
So many misinterpretations, so little time.

So you, like many others claim that we can't disprove the flat earth because even flat earth believers don't know what the flat earth looks like (no map), don't know how the sun moves and don't know even the accurate height of the sun or moon.

No. I claim that Pinky's assertion that this "...settles the dispute Flat-Earth-vs-Spherical-Earth forever and ever!" is an invalid argument, because Pinky is assuming that one representation is an accurate map. It's not, hence you can't draw that conclusion. I don't assert anything else.

If you would like, feel free to provide your own FE map.
If you would like something more solid, feel free to provide a FE map to compare with.
This is your go-to, isn't it, regardless of the fact that I've already told you no such map exists. I'm calling into question Pinky's assertion of unassailable logic that uses a FE map. He chooses the "map" picture and draws a conclusion. I don't have to provide a different map to show that his logic is flawed.

You see, the nice thing about this experiment is that we don't need absolute values for distances. We only need the ratios of distances.
Yes, but you use the ratios you gleaned from your selection of a "map" you think all FE agree on for its accuracy (especially to the point of making measurements). If you're not familiar with the term, look up "strawman."

So, Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss Curiouser and Curiouser, you in infinite wisdom, with a whole 27 (at last count) posts under your pinafore claim to know more about flat earth theory than Jack, Administrator and one of the most senior flat earther members here.
You think that number of posts equates to understanding of a topic? That's truly adorable!

I assume we can believe Jack when he writes in the FAQ!
Why? That may be your problem. The assumptions you make may not necessarily be true.

Hmmm. Let's see. "Here is picture of a proposed, but certainly not definitive, flat earth"

Reading is fundamental.

Seems my point is clear.

Perhaps you've missed it.

I am pointing out that Pinky's assertion of a "simple, undeniable, unmanipulatable experiment" that "settles the dispute Flat-Earth-vs-Spherical-Earth forever and ever!" relies on an assumption of the existance of a map that all FE ascribe to and that is accurate enough from which measurements can be made.

All Pinky has shown is that interpretations and measurements of that map are inconsistent with Pinky's other armchair measurements. I'll assume that Pinky hasn't actually done any of the driving suggested in Iceland or South Africa. I apologize in advance if that assumption is incorrect.

996
No. That map exists, as part of a FE model map.
As such, it does contradict it.

If you would like, feel free to provide your own FE map.

All it really means is that these specific FE models are shown to be crap, while the RE works fine.
There is no consensus among FE, or even a majority position, that the notional representations talked about so far are accurate maps from which distances can be determined.

You may wish that was the case for the sake of your argument, but that does not make it so.

Comparing the OPs distances to that notional representation does nothing to further the argument.

997
Depending on how you scale a FE-map, Iceland is either 467 km or 734 km in East-West-direction. (SE-maps claim that it's 490 km.)
Depending on how you scale a FE-map, South-Africa is either 1040 km or 1634 km in East-West-direction. (SE-maps claim that it's 655 km.)
And you can do the same calculations for many more examples.

Since no cartography of a FE world map has been performed, the maps you want to scale are based on RE maps, altered to fit FE ideas.

Hence no measurement of a real-world distance will do what you are looking for - contradict a FE model map - because no consensus model map exists. The map at http://www.3dham.com/blog/Flat_earthrot.jpg is just one idea.

All of your HYPERBOLIC BOLD ALL-CAPS CONCLUSIONS fail to take this into consideration and are, therefore, invalid.

Sorry.

998
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Real or fake?
« on: January 04, 2018, 02:49:29 PM »
It's obviously edited to compress time. But regarding real or fake, how is that relevant to any debate of interest?

999
Flat Earth General / Re: Flat Earth believer fired
« on: January 03, 2018, 10:22:00 PM »
Here’s one such claim, no idea how much truth there is to it.  Sounds like maybe the outburst and property damage is the “reason” he was fired.
Athletic Director Steven Spheresberg? Geology professor Roxi Stones? Even before getting to the end of the article "Editor’s note: This article is part of The Scoffayette, our satire April Fool’s edition," the jape should have been apparent.

Thanks for trying, though.

1000
Flat Earth General / Re: Flat Earth believer fired
« on: January 03, 2018, 10:07:58 PM »
Does this answer your questions?
Yes. While I still hope to hear from someone who can provide more information, you've at least done the courtesy of addressing the questions. Thank you.

1001
Flat Earth General / Re: Flat Earth believer fired
« on: January 03, 2018, 12:44:31 PM »
Thank you, but neither of the two previous posts answer the two original questions.

1002
Flat Earth General / Re: Flat Earth believer fired
« on: December 31, 2017, 11:12:52 AM »
Flat earthers don't work at jobs where it matters whether or not they were flat earthers. But they do have to put on plastic gloves before making the sandwiches.
Well, that was part of the reasoning behind asking the question. Since you seem to have a comprehensive knowledge of the subject, please provide information on your method of data searching that allows you to state that no FE believer has a job that conflicts with that belief.

Additionally, the question not only implies being fired for cause (you can't do your job because you won't accept as fact something critical to the performance of the job) but also being fired for prejudice against a belief (you think the Earth is flat, therefore I don't like you, therefore you're fired).

1003
Flat Earth General / Flat Earth believer fired
« on: December 30, 2017, 08:21:54 PM »
Does anyone know of and have references to an instance of someone being fired from a job because of their belief in Flat Earth theory?

If so, does anyone know of and have references to any lawsuits filed because of it?

1004
Flat Earth General / Re: New York area FEs
« on: December 29, 2017, 11:08:27 PM »
Plumb not level.
Pedantic not relevant

1005
Flat Earth General / Re: New York area FEs
« on: December 29, 2017, 10:42:19 PM »
I've got a job for you, on the Verrazano-Narrows bridge
Check to see if the 2 towers are vertical.

Use the longest bubble level you can find, steal, or borrow.
Place it on each of the towers to confirm they are in fact vertical.

Now comes the hard part.
You need to become a surveyor or hire one.

According to the global thingy,
The tops of the two towers are just over 41mm apart compared to their bases.
Just over 1.6 inches.

To prove flat earth and become the FE god,
Do the measurements.

I await your denials.
Seriously? A bubble level to determine the verticality of the towers?

Measure a difference of 1.6 inches between two towers 693 feet tall.

Since it's between two towers, the contribution for each tower would be 0.8 inches. 0.8 inches over 693 feet is an angle of 0f 0.0055 degrees. Good measuring practice dictates that a measuring tool be at least 5X (more often 10X) the precision of the quantity you're trying to measure. That means your "bubble level" requires a precision of 1/1000th of a degree.

Please give the manufacturer and model number for a bubble level capable of this precision, and tell me where you'll place it to assure the verticality of the towers.

"Use the longest bubble level you can find, steal, or borrow."
"Place it on each of the towers to confirm they are in fact vertical."

You're pretty good at a thought experiment ... not quite so good when it comes to practicality.

1006
Flat Earth General / Universal Acceleration questions
« on: December 29, 2017, 08:44:19 AM »
 Topic was hijacked and moved.

1007
Flat Earth Debate / Re: trigonometry
« on: December 28, 2017, 07:54:30 PM »
If mankind had studied sand as long and as hard as man has studied the Sun and literally centuries of observation by tens of thousands of scientists had produced statistical findings as checked and rechecked as the movements of the Sun, then if the NOAA or whatever equivalent bureau of weights and measures told me there were one million and seven grains on a particular beach, I would either take their word for it or go about conducting my own repeatable, falsifiable and peer-reviewable experiment of my own.

Because that is science.

As far as latitude and longitude, how could that possible mean anything else?

Now, are you going to attempt the puzzle or not?
Still failing to understand the basic premise.

If you don't understand how it could possibly mean anything else, then you don't have the ability to understand the basic premise.

Rabinoz does.

No, I told you in my second post on this topic that my interest in this was the source of your data, not in doing a calculation. I know that's your interest in this, but it's not mine.

1008
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Why Mathmatics so Uncommon in FE Theory?
« on: December 28, 2017, 01:55:22 PM »
For those naysayers, Science Without Numbers does a great start of proving this:
Mathematics, ultimately, is a tool. It can be used to aid understanding, but it can also be used for people to elevate themselves. It is one of the many things used as status markers in today's society, where numerical literacy is treated as a way for some people to feel superior to others.
Mathematics is not necessary for a true understanding of the world. That comes from within. If you will only listen to numbers, ask yourself why.

"A good decision is based on knowledge and not on numbers." - Plato

“When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarely, in your thoughts advanced to the stage of science.” - Lord Kelvin

Pick one.

1009
Flat Earth Debate / Re: trigonometry
« on: December 28, 2017, 01:25:34 PM »
What issues? It's a trigonometric question. Either the data I gave is right, or wrong. Pick one. Then if you think it's wrong, provide right data so I can correct the problem. If it's right, choose whether you want to try the problem or not.

This is math, not philosophy.

"How many grains of sand are on this beach?"
"One million and seven!"
"No, I think your data is suspect. I think there are a lot more than that."
"Then give me the right number!"
"I can't."
"Then you are wrong and I am right!"
"I don't have to have the exact number to think your data is suspect. In fact, I said that very clearly a few minutes ago."
"If you think you are right and I am wrong, then give me the right number!"
"I don't think you're quite getting the point ..."

Also, if you think this question is solely mathematical, you're also missing the point regarding the whole framework of common belief. Specifying a point by longitude and lattitude, for example. Not everyone agrees on what that means.

1010
Flat Earth Debate / Re: trigonometry
« on: December 28, 2017, 01:08:56 PM »

So, you are saying the data is wrong?

No, I simply asked you how you got this "data".

You've answered the question, and that is all I need to know about the thoroughness of your understanding of the issues.

1011
Flat Earth Debate / Re: trigonometry
« on: December 28, 2017, 12:53:38 PM »

My data was sourced from https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/azel.html based on latitude and longitude data provide by Wikipedia.

If you believe that data is faulty, I welcome you to use your zetetic skills to provide more accurate data as long as you submit it for peer review.

Calculations done by a government web site which already accepts round earth theory, based on data provided by a web-site where anyone can update data.

'Nuff said.

If I believe the data sources to be suspect, I can do so without providing more accurate data, as I am not attempting to do a calculation. I was simply asking about your sources before you continued any farther in this train of thought.

1012
Flat Earth Debate / Re: trigonometry
« on: December 28, 2017, 11:33:41 AM »
Here is a trigonometric problem to work out: On December 21st 2017(the solstice) in Ushuaia, Argentina (Lat 54° 48' S, Long 68° 18' W) at 09:00 UTC, the sun is at an azimuth of 121.59(to the southeast of one of the southernmost cities in the world) and an elevation of 7.0 degrees. At that same time, in Perth, Australia(31°57′8″S 115°51′32″E) the same sun is at an azimuth of 258.17(almost due west) an an elevation of 27.39 degrees.

Now, where is the sun on a Flat Earth map?

Please provide info on how you measured these values, especially at the same time.

Since all of Flat Earth theory relies on massive global conspiracies throughout every portion of government, industry, and academia, and since Zetetic Astronomy is based on observation (which most FE take to mean personal observation), then sourcing this information becomes a crucial question.

1013
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Flat Earth Rocket falls off truck.
« on: December 26, 2017, 11:55:17 AM »
That's one way to continue to avoid doing something stupid (a la Ken Carter). Way to go, Mike!

1014
Observations of the Sun and Moon show that the angular size of each is not related to the daily elevation angle thoughout a day. Rather than just point out the comparison at noon/sunset (something that is frequently done and which then can lead the conversation off into some unnecessary directions) it is prudent to observe that the angular size remains constant for all elevation angles from sunrise to sunset.

If the Flat Earth model to which you refer is that the Sun and Moon move away from the observer without any intervening optical effect altering the angular size, and that the edges of both are physically the same size, then you are correct. The Sun would change angular size during the day.

There is therefore an inconsistency with either the assumptions or the model. The observation is not in dispute.

1015
Flat Earth General / Re: Is a Flat Earth Rocket Scientist an oxymoron?
« on: December 11, 2017, 12:40:16 AM »
As I understand it, Mike Hughes is not necessarily a Flat Earther at the moment, but he will very likely become a true flat Earther after his next launch.

1016
Does the Flat Earth Society hold to this position? (I.e., that the argument of a straight line visible horizon at altitude contradicts the spotlight sun, and therefore should not be used to argue for a Flat Earth?)

1017
Experiments demonstrating the existance of Poisson's Spot (the diffractive "focus" point of an aragoscope) have been made and well understood for 200 years.

While the point is brighter than the surrounding shadow, the maximum power intensity on axis is no greater than the undisturbed wavefront (what would be present without the obscuration).

Even if everything else was correct (point source or collimated light, correct distances and sizes for whatever geometry you choose), the intensity at any point on the Earth would not be any greater than usual.

1018
Yes that would be a more correct way of stating it

Thank you. I believe we now have a common understanding.

Let me rephrase my question from a few posts ago, though, which remains unanswered. I think we got off on a tangent of terminology.

I see many YouTube videos, images, etc. where people have taken images of the Earth from balloons, rockets, etc. They have laid a straight line over the lit vs unlit portion of the image. Captions read "Straight as an arrow," "Real balloon. No curve at 121,000 feet," "Over 20 miles high, Horizon still 100% Flat," "22.9 miles (121,000 ft) NO curvature visible!!."

To me this suggests that the logic being presented is "If the edge of the light/dark area is a straight line, that is evidence that the Earth is flat." This is a different interpretation than you and I just discussed. I suspected and you confirmed that the edge between light and dark should have a bent shape, not a straight shape.

Does this mean that photographic evidence showing a straight line between light and dark (or any attempt to do an experiment whose purpose is to show a straight line between light and dark) is not a valid argument for FE theory (because FE theory says that it should be a bent shape)?

Or maybe to put it in simpler terms: "People who put a straight line over an image of the visible edge of the Earth ... what are they trying to show?"

1019
Round is how a flat, circular, horizon WOULD appear. It contradicts nothing.

Does that mean the interpretation of "The horizon always appears perfectly flat 360 degrees around the observer regardless of altitude. All amateur balloon, rocket, plane and drone footage show a completely flat horizon over 20+ miles high," is more precisely the following? (Let me add words to see if I get your meaning.):

"The horizon always appears perfectly flat which I see as the edge of an illuminated circle viewed from above the surface so I see its curved edge which extends 360 degrees around the observer regardless of altitude. All amateur balloon, rocket, plane and drone footage show a completely flat horizon surface and I also see the edge of the illuminated circle which has a bent shape rather than a straight shape which is misinterpreted by many to be the curvature of a globe, from over 20+ miles high."

1020
Sit on a flat surface and draw a circle around you. The edge being the limit of lighting.

The horizon will only appear flat when the observer is near the plane the circle resides on. Any distance upwards shrinks the circle's apparent diameter from infinite to 0.

So the author of  "The horizon always appears perfectly flat 360 degrees around the observer regardless of altitude. All amateur balloon, rocket, plane and drone footage show a completely flat horizon over 20+ miles high," is mistaken? And anyone who is trying to show that there is no apparent curvature at height therefore misunderstands the theory and is trying to prove a flawed premise? Is that right?


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