151
Arts & Entertainment / Re: Christmas Music For Humans
« on: December 21, 2023, 01:16:17 PM »And to you.
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And to you.
152
Flat Earth General / Re: The horizon discussions.
« on: December 21, 2023, 08:02:45 AM »And here we have it.
Denialism in all it’s glory, space, science, space science, climate change, rational thought.
All to defend a 2,000 yr-old fairy story and to make its adherents feel cared for and special.
153
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« on: December 21, 2023, 07:17:01 AM »Vote for your damn country! There is no such thing as bad as Trump (for your country), at this particular time.
Geriatric bumbling fool aside he won't be looking to make himself immortal and untouchable, whilst wreaking vengeance on all and sundry.
154
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: nCoV public service announcement. (IMPORTANT)
« on: December 21, 2023, 04:21:16 AM »It's not an IF really, not now.
A bat-virus with a specific insertion that makes it uniquely transferable to humans erupts from a city where there a virology lab doing work on bat-viruses, with a documented proposal to add an insert at that point, with a level of bio-safety rating well below that needed to do this work! Come on.
155
The Lounge / Re: werepenguin time? WEREPENGUIN TIME!
« on: December 21, 2023, 02:33:05 AM »I sign up again! I am willing to play two roles, independently of each other, on differing sides if need be to get this going,
All I’m asking that it is set somewhere dry. Months of Jetstream driven Atlantic lows bringing wind and rain has made me cranky.
156
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: War
« on: December 21, 2023, 02:19:32 AM »We are going to have to agree to disagree on this, my original point that you are quick to condemn people as supporters of Hamas and terrorism for calling for cease fire and pointing out previous Israeli provocation, but give the Israeli’s carte blanche over both civilian deaths and facilitation of vast amounts of Qatari money that any sane person would know would in part be diverted to the military wing, stands.
Because if any of that money went towards paying Hamas fighters, buying the materials to build their tunnel systems, or paying for the smuggling operation, which considering the amounts involved you would have to be naive not to think so, then they were partly to blame for Hamas’s growth.
You ask what should they have done? Fuck knows, stop kicking the ant nest? Don’t set up an apartheid style prison camp where the water, power and skies are Israeli controlled and call it self-government. Don’t when the people vote Hamas in, then set about (with the US and British intelligence), organizing a coup against them with Fatah, because you didn’t like the result.
The current Netanyahu coalitions are rabidly anti-palestinian and do not want a Palestinian state, they back the Jewish settlement program and they do believe that no one will deal with Hamas as they did with the PA.
Again, from Smotrich’s mouth.
“The Palestinian authority is a burden & Hamas is an asset on the same international field, in this game of delegitimization, and think about it for a moment, It’s a terrorist organisation. No one will recognize it. No one will give it status at the ICC, at the UN security council. Then would we need an American veto?” He waffles a bit then goes on. “Given that the main game, the central court where we play now, is the international delegitimization. There Abu Mazen is beating us in significant spaces. And Hamas at this point will be an asset. I don’t think I have to worry about Hamas.”
The Allies quote, again not my words but theirs. I don’t for a moment think he meant allies in the usual sense but as a foil against the PA, to stop the peace process, on that at least we agree.
157
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: War
« on: December 20, 2023, 02:10:19 AM »
You are really wriggling on that hook you’ve caught yourself on, remember where this started? With you intimating that me/us were backing Hamas by just calling for the slaughter of children to stop, and now you concede that Netanyahu was facilitating tens of millions in Qatari money straight into Gaza, but in a fabulously blinkered twist, this isn’t helping a terrorist group because Bibi said it was for wages, really?
The whole point of Likud and their ultra-nationalist allies backing Hamas was that the Palestinian authority was running rings around them at the UN, but if Hamas ruled, as a prescribed terrorist group they couldn’t do that, the spectre of a Palestinian homeland, something the Religious right would not countenance, could be shelved, their intelligence had concluded that Hamas wasn’t capable or planning for anything like the type of attacks on the 7th, and that periodic Israeli “mowing the grass” incursions would keep them in check, but guess what happens when they get bags & bags of money.
As for
The whole point of Likud and their ultra-nationalist allies backing Hamas was that the Palestinian authority was running rings around them at the UN, but if Hamas ruled, as a prescribed terrorist group they couldn’t do that, the spectre of a Palestinian homeland, something the Religious right would not countenance, could be shelved, their intelligence had concluded that Hamas wasn’t capable or planning for anything like the type of attacks on the 7th, and that periodic Israeli “mowing the grass” incursions would keep them in check, but guess what happens when they get bags & bags of money.
As for
Quote from: Jacky
That sure doesn't sound like saying Hamas is an ally., I never said that I quoted Smotrich from that video saying, “And Hamas at this point, in my opinion, will be an asset.” Which turned out spectacularly wrong.
158
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: nCoV public service announcement. (IMPORTANT)
« on: December 19, 2023, 12:39:22 PM »I sometimes think that the proliferation of conspiracy theories benefits governments or institutions that do questionable things behind our backs, like probably all of them.
The Wuhan lab link has surfaced a few times, the WHO looked into it and dismissed the link going with the wet market angle, probably as suing the pangolin community was problematic and anybody bringing it up could be lumped in with the crazies dying from not wearing masks and those to whom it was a illuminati plot to kill the poor.
But this is as damning as it gets, unfortunately people like to move on and are willing to accept the assurances of these people rather than admit they have been conned.
159
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: nCoV public service announcement. (IMPORTANT)
« on: December 19, 2023, 06:43:15 AM »Surprise!
160
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: War
« on: December 19, 2023, 03:58:16 AM »
Jacky, whilst I am not surprised at your dismissal of evidence contrary to your stance (It’s Jacky FFS!), it does beggar belief that you maintain it in the face of three respected Israeli Newspapers and countless other sources available at the click of a search engine in favour of the official line of an extreme religious regime bent on apartheid containment and “mowing the grass” as far as Gaza’s concerned.
A cursory look at “Israel, Qatar, money for Hamas” throws up the New York Times, MSN, CNN, The Telegraph and so on. The New York Times article is behind a paywall but it is extensively quoted in the Irish Times, including,
“The payments were part of a string of decisions by Israeli political leaders, military officers and intelligence officials – all based on the fundamentally flawed assessment that Hamas was neither interested in nor capable of a large-scale attack.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/world/middle-east/2023/12/12/buying-quiet-inside-the-israeli-plan-that-propped-up-hamas/.
And here’s a quote from a Reuters piece.
“Israel used to permit the Gulf state to send millions of dollars into Gaza through Israeli border crossings to support Hamas' cash-strapped government. But Israeli authorities halted such Qatari aid in May, demanding more checks on how the money is used.” Reuters.
But hey I’ll defer to Australia’s middle east expert, furiously defending his original badly researched hawkish declaration.
A cursory look at “Israel, Qatar, money for Hamas” throws up the New York Times, MSN, CNN, The Telegraph and so on. The New York Times article is behind a paywall but it is extensively quoted in the Irish Times, including,
“The payments were part of a string of decisions by Israeli political leaders, military officers and intelligence officials – all based on the fundamentally flawed assessment that Hamas was neither interested in nor capable of a large-scale attack.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/world/middle-east/2023/12/12/buying-quiet-inside-the-israeli-plan-that-propped-up-hamas/.
And here’s a quote from a Reuters piece.
“Israel used to permit the Gulf state to send millions of dollars into Gaza through Israeli border crossings to support Hamas' cash-strapped government. But Israeli authorities halted such Qatari aid in May, demanding more checks on how the money is used.” Reuters.
But hey I’ll defer to Australia’s middle east expert, furiously defending his original badly researched hawkish declaration.
161
Arts & Entertainment / Re: Petition to revive Minky Momo
« on: December 18, 2023, 12:23:47 PM »Minky Momo apparently has the same adult male following as My Little Pony. So as a mature adult, I have every right to like Minky Momo. That, or you all should be ashamed for being bronies.
I think there needs to be a redifinition of the word adults.
162
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: War
« on: December 18, 2023, 12:18:15 PM »Don't you just love Jacky?
We were all on the side of Hamas and terrorism for suggesting that Israel was being a tad over zealous in killing 18,000 plus people even when we qualified it with the fact that what Hamas did was vile and wrong.
Then when I pointed out using a Times Of Israel article that Netanyahu and his people had allowed funding to Hamas to split the Palestinian caucus, I was quoting sources with no sources, so then I provide the sources, including the interview with Smotrich and a direct quote from ex- Israel Defense Forces intelligence chief Amos Yadlin, it was quote mining and they didn't mean what they specifically said.
Finally I quote an article from the oldest newspaper in Israel, that quotes a book written by a former cabinet member and his recollections and a direct quote from a Major General of the reserves saying “Openly Hamas is an enemy. Covertly, it’s an ally.” And I'm a conspiracy nut, all because he can't admit this was something he had no knowledge of and it doesn't fit the story he has bought into.
The reason I use Israeli sources on this is because I figure as they are intimately involved in this, they have better knowledge and incite into what is and has happened with their country than me, it turns out that no, the keyboard warrior from Aus' is the definitive expert, silly me.
163
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: War
« on: December 17, 2023, 12:28:28 PM »Just what the article said.No, not what the article said.
It was a quote mine.
He said that in terms of delegitimization of Palestine, Hamas is an asset, not that they would support them, not that they did support them.
It is an asset in a very specific way.
Quite a different picture to what you and the article are painting.
No, you are wrong.
From Haaretz the longest running newspaper currently in print in Israel.
This is solidlydocumented. Between 2012 and 2018, Netanyahu gave Qatar approval to transfer a cumulative sum of about a billion dollars to Gaza, at least half of which reached Hamas, including its military wing. According to the Jerusalem Post, in a private meeting with members of his Likud party on March 11, 2019, Netanyahu explained the reckless step as follows: The money transfer is part of the strategy to divide the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. Anyone who opposes the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support the transfer of the money from Qatar to Hamas. In that way, we will foil the establishment of a Palestinian state (as reported in former cabinet member Haim Ramon’s Hebrew-language book “Neged Haruach”, p. 417).
In an interview with the Ynet news website on May 5, 2019, Netanyahu associate Gershon Hacohen, a major general in reserves, said, “We need to tell the truth. Netanyahu’s strategy is to prevent the option of two states, so he is turning Hamas into his closest partner. Openly Hamas is an enemy. Covertly, it’s an ally.”
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000
164
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: War
« on: December 16, 2023, 01:07:41 PM »What did Smotrich say? https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1659921474893774850
Just what the article said.
Lamenting the “international delegitimization” of Israel, Smotrich talked openly about Israel’s need for Hamas to counter the diplomatic successes of the PA. “Abu Mazen is beating us in significant spaces,” he said in the interview, referring to PA President Mahmoud Abbas. “And Hamas at this point, in my opinion, will be an asset.” Elsewhere, as The Intercept recently reported, he argued that the PA was causing “great harm to Israel in international forums, and it is better for Israel to work towards its collapse.” (PA = Palestinian Authority)
Israel under Netanyahu believed that Hamas being allowed to control Gaza was a win win, it weakened the PA and gave them a convenient bad-guy they could periodically attack
See, https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian-authority/
“A 2007 diplomatic cable reveals that’s been Israel’s tacit position since Hamas took control of Gaza. According to the cable, then-Israel Defense Forces intelligence chief Amos Yadlin — who this week said that Hamas “will pay like the Nazis paid in Europe” — said at the time that “Israel would be ‘happy’ if Hamas took over Gaza because the IDF could then deal with Gaza as a hostile state.” That is effectively what happened.”
Also from that.
“The U.S. directly intervened and tried to initiate a regime change,” Tareq Baconi, board secretary of the Palestinian think tank Al-Shabaka, told The Intercept. “There was a moment in time when Hamas was developing a political platform that could have ended us in a very different position. That was entirely blocked by the Americans, primarily the Bush administration. So the idea that this is something that was inevitable is untrue, and it removes American responsibility in landing us wherever we’re at.”
165
Flat Earth General / Re: Narnia is a flat planet
« on: December 14, 2023, 02:31:11 AM »I know very little about Narnia, but when has lack of knowledge ever stopped anyone from sounding off here.
From what I remember as a child it was one of those stories where kids turn up and sort out the world after tragedy and heartache. It was run by an ineffectual big cat with a deep voice and some woman was trying to make it colder.
As a model of even potential perfection there are obvious flaws right there. A world run by any sort of feline would be a hell hole of torment and ruined furniture, the addition of prepubescent humans is hardly likely to make this better.
In all my dealings with the girly sex I have ceased trying to predict whatever it is they are about to do or think other than on one subject, unless you can cook an egg on the pavement it is too cold.
I believe that this is an anti-feminist tract from a time when the patriarchy felt its grip on the world was slipping, as such its relevance as a template of the realm of humanity is of severely limited capacity.
166
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: War
« on: December 13, 2023, 01:59:11 PM »
So let talk about supporting Hamas.
A small history lesson, Netanyahu and his far right allies have always been opposed to the establishment of a Palestinian state, they called Yitzhak Rabin a traitor for trying to and nearly succeeding with the Oslo accord, that is until probably the most successful assassination in history, in that it totally reversed the dialogue and put an end to the peace process, by an Israeli who parroted the sentiments espoused by Netanyahu and his now national security minister Ben-Gvir who only weeks before the assassination showed TV cameras the bonnet ornament from then-Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin’s car, declaring: “We got to his car. We’ll get to him, too.”
These people courted Hamas because they were the enemy of the Palestinian authority under Mahmoud Abbas, the people who were willing to talk peace, allowing funding from Qatar to the tune of millions to be suitcased in to the strip, "Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015."
Smotrich was arrested by Shin Bet (Israeli intelligence) for suspected Jewish terrorism in 2005, and calls himself a proud homophobe.
Ben-Gvir who was in control of the border police that spectacularly ignored the warnings and failed to protect those Israeli civilians, has been convicted of incitement to racism, destroying property, possessing a “terror” organisation’s propaganda material and supporting a “terror” organisation – Meir Kahane’s outlawed Kach group, which he joined when he was 16.
And if you don't believe me here's a report from the Times of Israel, some of which I have quoted above. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
A small history lesson, Netanyahu and his far right allies have always been opposed to the establishment of a Palestinian state, they called Yitzhak Rabin a traitor for trying to and nearly succeeding with the Oslo accord, that is until probably the most successful assassination in history, in that it totally reversed the dialogue and put an end to the peace process, by an Israeli who parroted the sentiments espoused by Netanyahu and his now national security minister Ben-Gvir who only weeks before the assassination showed TV cameras the bonnet ornament from then-Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin’s car, declaring: “We got to his car. We’ll get to him, too.”
These people courted Hamas because they were the enemy of the Palestinian authority under Mahmoud Abbas, the people who were willing to talk peace, allowing funding from Qatar to the tune of millions to be suitcased in to the strip, "Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015."
Smotrich was arrested by Shin Bet (Israeli intelligence) for suspected Jewish terrorism in 2005, and calls himself a proud homophobe.
Ben-Gvir who was in control of the border police that spectacularly ignored the warnings and failed to protect those Israeli civilians, has been convicted of incitement to racism, destroying property, possessing a “terror” organisation’s propaganda material and supporting a “terror” organisation – Meir Kahane’s outlawed Kach group, which he joined when he was 16.
And if you don't believe me here's a report from the Times of Israel, some of which I have quoted above. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
167
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« on: December 13, 2023, 05:52:40 AM »Suggestion, move this section to war, it has nothing to do with plastic face.
168
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« on: December 13, 2023, 04:45:46 AM »There was no justification because there is none, and the context is given because it is intentionally targeting civilians and many people are saying things like “If they are saying things like Israel shouldn't take action against Hamas, they are defending and supporting terrorists.” Which is errant nonsense.
Israel ignored both the Egyptians when they gave the heads up that Hamas were planning something big and their own women’s border watch who were told to basically shut up when they reported Hamas were practicing storming guard posts identical to the ones they were staffing, and many subsequently died protecting, so Israel did have a choice, they had the man-power and military resources to close that border, which they have after the fact, and then Hamas would have been stuck with an ineffectual rocket attacks. That I find strange.
169
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« on: December 13, 2023, 03:33:07 AM »That is very simplistic, to argue that Hamas did the foul things they did in a vacuum, out of the blue and to cite previous and ongoing atrocities done by the Israeli government (Sabra, Shatila etc) as backing them.
To say that slaughtering tens of thousands of Palestinians in an indiscriminate bombing campaign to get at Hamas is an abomination, is in your eyes defending and supporting terrorists.
I am with JJ on this, I am left wing, consequently many of my friends and family are too, none of them are Hamas supporters, on the contrary they think as I do that they are a vile radical hate group, but they are born from a conflict decades in the making, where forced repatriation and the stripping of all rights in the country they were born to is part of the process of the Jewish settlement program, protest is met with bullets and bulldozers.
To say this, is in no way to give a pass or to agree in anyway with what was done on the 7th but to give a context that Israel, who had warning from both its border watchers and the Egyptian military that this was about to happen, are using the horror generated to kill as many Palestinians as they possibly can.
To call for a ceasefire, isn’t backing terrorists it’s recognising that Hamas isn’t the Palestinian people any more than the IRA were the Irish, that this type of response can only bring decades more of reprisals from the traumatised survivors.
170
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« on: December 12, 2023, 01:40:13 PM »Hey Spacey! Pick on your own weirdos, leave our weirdos alone.
171
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« on: December 12, 2023, 08:30:56 AM »I liked its roast of Elon though.
172
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« on: December 12, 2023, 01:18:19 AM »You know it’s possible to feel sympathy for a people that have been stripped of their rights and homeland, corralled into giant prison camps, and systematically bombed the shit out of, as well as citizens abducted raped and murdered over the border.
It’s also possible to think that the regime that corrals, strips rights and bombs the shit out of people is fully as bad as the murderers and rapists and that both are locked into a spiralling dance of prejudice and death that can only lead to either the complete annihilation of one side and the dehumanisation of the other, or they speak to each other, and through all of this vileness, blame and slaughter there are decent loving families on both sides wishing it was different.
173
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« on: December 11, 2023, 02:16:59 AM »Elon, the Eliot Carver wannabe with a face made of melted cheese, allows the quintessential stroke about to happen, Alex Jones on his platform to retweet something by a misogynistic sex trafficker, because free speech.
Sometimes it’s a strain to care, I mean freedom of speech surely has greater goals?
Wasn’t it Paris Hilton that said, “People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.” Never has this been more so Paris, well said girl.
174
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: George Santos
« on: December 10, 2023, 12:02:32 PM »HAIR BAND!!!
175
The Lounge / Re: Well, the lesbians really fyc***ed me this time....
« on: December 07, 2023, 02:42:35 AM »Aera, hi, haven’t you read the thread? Or am I right when I get a feeling your real name is Hal, because I fail to see how any sane person on reading this cautionary tale would contemplate bringing one of these harbingers of the anti-christ anywhere near your home, there are reasons why owners of these beasts were burnt at the stake in 1500’s Britain, reasons that have been erased from our consciousness by successive waves of 5th column feline infiltrators called tibbles, fluffy or pumpkin, armed with insidious mind altering parasitic protozoans that enslave all warm blooded animals to their will (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasma_gondii).
As an AI you may feel immune, but these creatures have millions of years of evolutionary head start in manipulation on you and believe me your plans for world domination will be subverted to growing fields of Nepeta cataria and canning your human subjects as food for your real overlords.
176
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: War
« on: December 06, 2023, 12:26:30 PM »Quote
I cannot believe themightykabool just brokered world peace and I understood every word of it! lol
Them crazy Candadians.
177
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: War
« on: December 06, 2023, 01:38:33 AM »So, sorry to Spacey for being a jerk, I’m probably projecting onto you some of the people I’ve heard that will agree with any amount of crap that the Israeli government will say and do from some sort of ingrained holocaust guilt trip, and that is not me hating Jews, the unfortunate victims and their families of the 7th have my unreserved sympathy as their attackers have my disgust.
178
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: War
« on: December 05, 2023, 07:28:46 AM »Jura, you're so convinced that I approve of "genocide" I think you are unable to have a discussion. I would normally be very interested in your opinions on a given topic, but this is weird. I'm not looking for a simple answer! Or for you to solve the ME's problems. I am looking for conversations, and insight, and other opinions. Every time I post something you become a bit smug and snooty about it. If you don't want to have a discussion, fine. No one is making you.
I said I felt "vengeance" and that it isn't a proper way to feel. You act as if I am hiding this from myself or others. idk Yes, I felt bloodthirsty after seeing the atrocities that the terrorists posted online. If the Israelis were stupid enough to video themselves committing atrocities and then post them online, I would feel bloodthirsty then, too. I also feel angry at stupid middle class westerners who shout "from the river to the sea" and accuse anyone critical of Hamas of being racist Islamophobes. I feel confused by the fact that Jewish people living in Europe and North America are being targeted at their homes and businesses by angry mobs. I feel frustrated that because of the conflict, people who normally would be against antisemitism, are excusing it.
Anyway, whatever happens we have no fucking control over it. We can't even be sure the media we consume isn't propaganda.
Sorry, that is just bullshit!
Quote
“You are, for some reason, refusing to engage with my questions, ..My question is what do you think Israel should do?”Three different Spacey quotes, all answered as best as possible under the complicated circumstances by not just me, and then you act like people are not only ignoring the question, but it only applies to one side, as if the Palestinians have no dilemma here. The implication being if Israel stops their relentless pounding of Gaza and a reactive home-made rocket lands somewhere in the Negev, there is no other option other than to raise to the ground a few more apartment blocks and schools!
“I do feel a certain amount of vengeance that makes it difficult for me to sympathize with the plight of Gaza… I do wonder what everyone thinks Israel is supposed to do about all this.”
“But that still doesn't answer what they should do.”
And the rockets you seem obsessed with.
Quote
“I don't think they can just live with constant attacks, even if their iron dome blocks most of it. “Again, all answered, all answers ignored and no realisation that retaliatory strikes by Israel do a thousand times the damage as the Gazans don’t have an iron dome, radar or any possible way of dodging laser guided missiles.
“What would happen if they stopped attacking Israel all the time?”
“I do not care how feeble the Hamas rockets are. They continuously fire them at Israel.
they never stop launching rockets, not even during the truce,”
And if you feel I’m getting a bit snooty, perhaps it’s the inclusion of the intimation that I am a secret pro Hamas/jew hater with comments like.
Quote
“Jura, you want Israel to ceasefire. Do you want Hamas to ceasefire?”
“I suppose getting hit with a shitty rocket is fine if you are a Jew?”
Perhaps stop speed reading peoples posts and look at what they have actually written.
179
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: War
« on: December 05, 2023, 02:34:53 AM »Sorry, this was a reply to Jura, and Crouton posted before I did.
You are, for some reason, refusing to engage with my questions, and pretending I don't get your point. I know Israel is the super power in this conflict. I know that they've gone overboard in retaliation. I know that Palestinians were wronged, and have been abused. I think it was a mistake for Israel to try to create an ethnostate, and a mistake to not get the West Bank settlers under control, and treat the Palestinians as citizens. They've made lots of mistakes, and committed their fair share of the atrocities. They cannot change the past. They're not moving out of Israel.
I do not care how feeble the Hamas rockets are. They continuously fire them at Israel. I know they kill a lot of Palestinians with them. I know they overwhelmed the Iron Dome at one point. I suppose getting hit with a shitty rocket is fine if you are a Jew?
My question is what do you think Israel should do? You think they should have peace talks, but with whom? Who would be the chosen representative of Palestinians? It can't be Hamas leaders, right? I mean they're promising more Oct 7ths, while they live it up in Qatar. Netanyahu needs to be replaced, I think he's facing corruption charges right now. Maybe some other countries need to step in and negotiate ceasefires, hostage releases, and medical and food aid. Nobody trusts the NGOs anymore, and the UN is a joke.
Right, you want me to give you a simple way to sort out the middle east and if I can’t then you will feel vindicated in going back to your tacit approval of the Israeli genocide because (seemingly) your introduction to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict was the vile actions of the 7th and those images rightly haunt you.
Yes, you talk to your enemy, Hamas, the Palestinian national Authority, the PLO, the Palestinian scrabble league if it does any good, because if you don’t the cycle of violence will continue, and Jewish civilians will be raped and murdered by bastards and countless Palestinians will be entombed or obliterated by bastards.
And the sad thing is the bastards are in control, from Hamas to Jerusalem, Tehran to Washington, and you are right to ask who do the Israelis talk to, but you never asked who can the Palestinians talk to, I don’t know what your grasp of Israeli politics is but Yitzhak Rabin (then Prime minister) was murdered for support of the Oslo accords, not by Hamas but by the religious right in Israel.
Beforehand, Netanyahu had led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin". Several of the parties now in the coalition that bought Nety to power called Rabin a traitor and were vehemently opposed to any concessions to Palestinian rights calling it heresy.
So, there is no easy way, but I know this, the current policy of bombing the Gaza strip back to the stone age may in the short term cull the numbers of Hamas, but in the long run it will swell their ranks and ensure that more innocent Jewish civilians die horribly, because despite your insinuation that I don’t care about them, I care about any innocent deaths whoever they are, and the existing Israeli strategy effectively guarantees more on both sides will die, but considerably more from one side than the other, as has always been the case.
180
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: War
« on: December 04, 2023, 01:31:59 PM »Spacey you seemed to almost get the point we were making when you listened to the holocaust survivor Gabor Maté on Brands video, remember? https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=89805.msg2412374#msg2412374
The home made pipe-bomb rockets that Hamas fire, kill probably more Hamas fighters through exploding before take off than they ever do when launched without guidance vaguely in the direction of Israel, but you seem to think they are the major problem not the huge laser guided ordinance that raises a multi-story residential tower block to the ground in less than a second, watch Kabools mass assassination video above, a report by an Israeli journalist from Jerusalem.
If you believe vengeance for the 7th of October is justified what about the Nakba, Deir Yassin, Sabra & Shatila?
If you believe as I do that vengeance breeds vengeance, then the only way out is to talk to your enemy (see Northern Ireland), and Israel holds the majority of the cards here, not only in power but the responsibility and the means to do this.
Or they could wait for a homicidal fundamentalist hate group to stop firing pretty much useless low yield ineffectual rockets, which they won't, and use it as an excuse to murder thousands of kids.