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Messages - NewtSmooth

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61
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Transit of Mercury
« on: May 09, 2016, 07:41:04 AM »
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There are no consumer telescopes strong enough to see Mercury. They're tightly regulated by NASA so people can only get them if NASA allows it. I know this because I do not have a telescope.
Ha, you totally had me going until this one.

Not here? :P
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Mercury was constructed by NASA to preserve the Conspiracy.

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You've heard of Poe's law?

It's virtually impossible to tell the difference between real FE rhetoric and a parody of it.
I hadn't heard of it yet, but it certainly makes sense that it's documented by now.

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Joking apart, I photographed the transit of Venus myself a few years ago.  Didn't even need a telescope, just a camera on a tripod and a piece of welders glass as a filter.  The result wasn't particularly high quality, but the small disc of Venus was clear enough.

It's cloudy where I am today, otherwise I'd photograph today's transit.
Neat! More curious to get an answer to
So, Flat Earthers.
...
How do you lot explain that, I wonder?
Predictions: That wasn't actually Venus, you were hallucinating, you're a shill.

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Flat Earth Debate / Re: Transit of Mercury
« on: May 09, 2016, 07:18:15 AM »
So, Flat Earthers.

There's a transit of Mercury today.  If you have a telescope and can project an image of the sun on to a screen, you can watch it for yourself.

No there isn't. Mercury was constructed by NASA to preserve the Conspiracy.

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Its timing and duration has been predicted to great accuracy using standard astronomical models of our heliocentric solar system.

But it's wrong.

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How do you lot explain that, I wonder?

The burden of proof lies with you to prove Mercury is real.

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How also do you explain the live satellite streaming of the transit both from Nasa and the European Space Agency.
CGI.

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Images from which obviously correspond exactly with the images that are available from various places on the ground that have clear sight of the sun today.

There are no consumer telescopes strong enough to see Mercury. They're tightly regulated by NASA so people can only get them if NASA allows it. I know this because I do not have a telescope.

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It's a bit much to expect that all the terrestrial observers are faking their images and reports, don't you think?

No real observers. All shills.

Edit: Also, thread number has 666 in it, you can't be trusted.


Alright, now let's see how many of my objection predictions pan out.

First one and the edit were jokes, I'm pretty sure somebody will use the second through fourth and the sixth, and I've actually seen a form of number five here. They said there just weren't any telescopes with a required zoom level though, not that NASA handed them out to their shills.

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<Logical demonstration that your response is irrelevant to the question being considered.>

<Reminder that we're talking about gravity/UA here.>
Wow, great non response.  Did you pull that straight out of the shill book, or did you come up with that garbage on your own? 
That was absolutely not a non-response, it addressed everything you said.
It was absolutely not "straight out of the shill book" because my point was that what you said doesn't support or refute either theory.
It was absolutely not garbage seeing as it's perfectly clear that nothing you said has anything to do with this thread.

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Your argument is that the Earth must be like the other planets, and I asked, "What if Earth is not a planet?"  It is not my fault that you can not use logic and reasoning.
I see the misunderstanding. My argument is not that Earth must be like the other planets, but that regions of Earth manifest obvious attraction of masses, and that the other planets manifest attraction of masses. How would you explain different downward forces on Earth and the orbits of moons and rings without gravity?
OH, so your argument is not that the Earth is like the other planets, but that it shares the same properties?  ::)
Yes, that's my understanding of things. What else could you attribute it to? was the original question.

Do the other planets have life on them?  Do they have liquid oceans?  Do the have blue skies?  It would appear to me that the Earth is not like the other planets.
Surface contents =/= properties

RET mathematics has found the sun to be just the right distance away to not kill life and boil the oceans away while FET instead assumes the sun is the right temperature for the same effect, and the color of the sky is based on atmospheric contents in RET and the Firmament in FET. So life, oceans, and the color of the sky would naturally vary drastically by location, and are all completely unrelated to why things are held to Earth's surface no matter which model you follow, therefore none of these things are valid evidence either way and should be ignored in this particular discussion.

Any actual information on how the "downward force" could vary near ore deposits and mountains or how moons and rings could stay in orbit around the other planets if gravity didn't exist?

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Your argument is that the Earth must be like the other planets, and I asked, "What if Earth is not a planet?"  It is not my fault that you can not use logic and reasoning.
I see the misunderstanding. My argument is not that Earth must be like the other planets, but that regions of Earth manifest obvious attraction of masses, and that the other planets manifest attraction of masses. How would you explain different downward forces on Earth and the orbits of moons and rings without gravity?
OH, so your argument is not that the Earth is like the other planets, but that it shares the same properties?  ::)
Yes, that's my understanding of things. What else could you attribute it to? was the original question.

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Your argument is that the Earth must be like the other planets, and I asked, "What if Earth is not a planet?"  It is not my fault that you can not use logic and reasoning.
I see the misunderstanding. My argument is not that Earth must be like the other planets, but that regions of Earth manifest obvious attraction of masses, and that the other planets manifest attraction of masses. How would you explain different downward forces on Earth and the orbits of moons and rings without gravity?

67
Flat Earth Debate / Re: GPS (as a flat earth believer)
« on: May 09, 2016, 05:15:25 AM »
I would say that that is what your mom told me, but I would likely get banned again.  Instead, I will agree with your mom about being disappointed.
:(

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Perhaps the Earth is not a planet?
B-but, Addresser of Content, Prover of Claims, Omniscient Sage of Science--the other planets clearly are planets and hold their moons in orbit, and even if the Earth were not a planet we do have ores and mountains. The shape of the Earth has no bearing on these things, and yet these things bear evidence of the attraction of masses. I do not mean to be rude, but I was hoping for more sagely addressing and proving.
B-but, what if the Earth is not a planet?  Where does your argument go then?
Earth's being a planet has absolutely nothing to do with my argument. This is evidence of gravity independent of that.

69
Flat Earth Debate / Re: GPS (as a flat earth believer)
« on: May 09, 2016, 04:55:05 AM »
One could hack the receiver just to watch it do its work and see how structured it all is.
How do you know what it broadcasts?  Oh, wait, is that what the NASholes told you?  lol
Honestly, you're usually better at derailing than this, and that was why I was disappointed with your post lol.

70
Flat Earth Debate / Re: GPS (as a flat earth believer)
« on: May 08, 2016, 10:10:23 PM »
Okay, so: GPS.

GPS satellite constantly broadcasts the time, its location, then a garbled binary string. The receiver reads the binary string until it fully loops so it knows when in the satellite's output the receiver first started "listening", why I can't tell you for sure. I'd have to see the receiver's code. The time difference from the timestamp in the code to the time known by the receiver is how long it took the EM waves. This, combined with the broadcasted location of where each signal came from, allows the distance from each satellite to be calculated, and thus the receiver can determine its location.

A fourth signal is also used to help ensure accuracy and help synchronize the receiver's time.

The satellite's are maintained by everybody's friend the US gov. They synch the satellites' atomic clocks every day and ensure their location data is up to snuff.

Now for the garbled binary: here's where synching and the fourth satellite come in, again if I understand it right. You need n linear equations to solve any system of n variables, in this case 3D + time. Distance-rate-time is linear. So if you have three satellites you might have a range of points you could be at because you have many figures for plausible coordinates, all dependent on the time deviation of the receiver.

If all of the satellites are synched, the point of entry in that garbled binary string can reliably tell you exactly how long each signal took from all four satellites and you can definitively narrow down what the fourth variable time deviation is, so that fourth satellite is necessary in computing the actual time it took for the other three signals to reach the receiver and resynching the receiver clock.

So, tl;dr
 
Here is my question: how do you (RE-ers who use that argument) know that GPS satellites are not natural celestial objects (some invisible, very slow-moving "star").
From my own plain old technically baseless common sense:
  • Widely observed satellite launches.
  • One could hack the receiver just to watch it do its work and see how structured it all is.

From this post:
  • Stars don't broadcast binary loops.
  • Stars don't broadcast their locations with a timestamp. Sure would make astronomy easier, though.
  • Contrary to popular belief, the stars aren't maintained by NASA.

71
Flat Earth Debate / Re: GPS (as a flat earth believer)
« on: May 08, 2016, 09:24:18 PM »
Well, one last off-topic post. Then GPS. Too much is off about air pressure to leave it be.

If there is no gravitational acceleration, the air pressure should be zero. Air pressure is simply hydrostatic pressure (p=rho*g*h). So, if g is 0, so should be p, right?
This applies only to atmospheric pressure, where there is no ceiling. Instead the gas is held together by Earth's gravity holding it against the planet (RET of course), so instead of an upper boundary there's increased downward force, dependent on p, the density of the gas, and h, the height of the column of air. As one progresses away from the center of gravity (up) g decreases, the air pressure decreases because less air presses down from above and with less weight.

Edit: Last sentence had a flawed sequence of ideas. Fixed it.

Any sealed container becomes an isolated system, however, and the ideal gas law applies instead. Note: atmospheric pressure. So no, zero gravity would not set the pressure to 0. Where would all the kinetic energy anyway?

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And people die when the air pressure lowers just slightly.

Extremely healthy people can manage to survive climbing Everest, whose summit has a third the air pressure  of sea level. So no. People don't just die with that small a change in air pressure.

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Here is my list of possible responses and why I think they are wrong:
1. They create pressure using ventilation.
They can't. You can only lower the pressure with a ventilation. In every point in a path of a single particle the sum of dynamic pressure and static pressure should be equal. So if you increase the dynamic pressure (the kinetic energy of the particles), the static pressure actually lowers, and not increases.

^ legit afaik.
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2. They create pressure by compressing air using the walls of the ISS (and probably bringing Pascal's law into debate just to sound smarter).

If you're going to say applying proven physics is arrogant, please stop condoning it by saying it on the Internet of all places.

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Well, keep this in mind: outside of the ISS, there is zero pressure. Inside, there is then atmospheric pressure.

So the ISS only has to contain one atm. Are you implying NASA can't do that?
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What force would be acting on that wall (and the bigger area this wall has, the stronger the force is)?
No. The bigger the area, the weaker that force is per square inch.

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I am pretty certain no material could sustain that!

One atm could easily be contained by modern alloys shaped by modern structural engineering.

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Also, shouldn't then the air in the ISS be much denser than the air here on the Earth? After all, we all know that p*V=n*R*T. If it is, how come would the astronauts survive?!

Full of no.

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3. They survive because the pressure of air inside them is also zero (it gradually decreases when they travel to the ISS).
So, how could they possibly breathe then? I mean, look, breathing is possible because, when the volume of air inside the lungs increases, the static pressure decreases. But, since the sum of statical and dynamical pressure has to stay constant, the air flows into the lungs. And when the volume of lungs decreases, exactly the opposite happens and the air flows away from the lungs. And if the static pressure is always zero, that simply couldn't happen.
So, what are the other possibilities (or maybe one of my refutations is wrong)?
Well, you're right, this potential response would be pretty dumb. Just because their internal pressure decreases doesn't mean they defy human anatomy.

Tl;dr they did some math (how haughty of them) to get the pressure about right, and have the right amount of air in the ISS for the volume and desired pressure. If you think no material can withstand 1 atm you need more trust in materials science. (Yes that's a thing.)

Aaaand nnnooooowww GPS. Sorry folks.

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Flat Earth Debate / Re: GPS (as a flat earth believer)
« on: May 08, 2016, 08:07:36 PM »
Cringe thread?
Quote from: Rabinoz
I would not claim to know how to do it either, but the engineers that design aircraft, etc do know!
Here we go again! That's one of the stupidest RE arguments, yet one of the most common. . .
"Well, I know I sure don't get it, so it must not be possible. . ."
Quote from: SamePost
But can't you at least TRY to reach the truth?!
One of the stupidest FE arguments, yet one of the most common. "I don't get it ==> It's not true. / You don't get it ==> You're lazy and/or stupid." Based on the logical fallacy of a double standard. If you have enough understanding of a concept to demonstrate that the loose ends don't meet up, then go ahead and argue against it.

Until then, everybody who doesn't know much about it is to some extent ignorant and nothing gets disproven, but the engineers keep successfully applying their knowledge and constantly proving it. So because they understand it they can keep generating more evidence while not even participating in the discussion, and you've still got nothing to say about it.

What is more likely: that they were deceived by the instruments or that they really reached the altitude they thought was impossible?

Those instruments apply fundamental physics, so if you're going to deny those instruments, you'd better be prepared to disprove. . . you know. . . everything? Whereas reaching an altitude higher than what they thought they could is plausible. Rounding down for safety and simplicity in intermediate calculations (not saying that's what they did), environmental conditions, etc. Do you or I know what happened there? No. But I and everybody else knows those instruments are extremely reliable. 

See, the same goes for the story you just told. If airplanes exist, they are too complicated for anyone to understand exactly how they work (each part). Even if an engineer says that they couldn't explain how could the instruments show that they are higher than possible, that doesn't mean that the RE is the most probable explanation.
Thrust/drag/lift/gravity, each part can be considered individually, let the engineers fuss about the big picture and individual parts for optimization. If anybody knows all that, chances are an industrial espionage suit is following, or they just have an airplane and know it works.

Wing: contour forces air to pass faster over the wing than under, reducing dynamic pressure and causing pressure below to lift the wings, when it is forced forward.
Elevators and rudders: same thing except you can turn it to change the orientation of the plane with the "lift" generated.
Ramjets: when forced through the air, the air is pressurized and mixed with fuel. Once ignited it stays lit for the same reasons a Bunsen burner does, and this pressure increase from the burning jet fuel generates thrust.

It doesn't really take much to understand an airplane if you try.

And I really shouldn't even be attempting to prove that ISS doesn't exist. The burden on proof is definitely on you. Don't take it as an attack, take it as a fact.
Yes. I should have to prove that an artificial observable object in the sky exists. Get a telescope, look up where it should be at, go outside, and look at it. Done? No conspiracy stuff? You can see it for yourself?

all, as a FE-er, I am not allowed to believe in submarines until I see enough evidence of them.
Implying the Allies pretended to almost lose WWI in the Atlantic and that anti-submarine convoy tactics remain in use purely to preserve the Conspiracy.

Sorry, I know that post ended with "let's get back to GPS" but this hurt too much to just pass this up. I'll get to GPS now.

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I took these arguments to someone quite highly placed in this Society, because he had NEVER countered these arguments - he always side-stepped them. I got a bit frustrated and PMed him. The answer was basically that he had no counter to these arguments.

Congratulations on your high placement, jroa.

Even Flat Earthers recognize him by his content-dodging track record lol. :P

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While on the topic,  did anyone ask Intikam how come we get rain at night..  If rain is caused by the sun melting the firmament,  it couldn't ever rain at night.  :)

Yeppers  ;)

OP's explanation would have us believe that the sky has a firmament of ice, and the presence of the sun melts the ice to create rain. This would naturally make the following true:
1. Either clouds or rain or both are always forming during the day.
2. Neither clouds nor rain are ever forming at night.

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Flat Earth Debate / Re: If you can answer this I will believe you.
« on: May 08, 2016, 06:55:35 PM »
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A personal perspective.....

We are taught that the ancients were somewhat primitive in thought process (contradicting the philosophy of the time clearly and evident to be conditioned in education that only noble and educated men can and, could ever think for themselves) Wise men pondered on global Earth while a stupid and primitive layman had belief in an Earth in which we could fall off the sides.

I get so annoyed at this because it is simply not true and there is no evidence other than modern scholars stating this was a fear for the silly uneducated fools - There is no documented evidence that people believed they would fall off the edge - Many people mock the Flat Earth understanding on this fiction. The misleading of actual historic belief - the religious evident a dome like protection, if not religious, an understanding of walls protecting the inner `circular` Earth model - Egyptians, Hebrews, Babylonians..... All very wise and non primitive examples.

This is very relatable. It really isn't true that people dreaded the thought of falling off the earth, it's a result of ignorance-based stigmatism. Sadly that ignorance cuts both ways, with some FEers claiming that if gravity existed, it would still pull people downwards in an astronomical frame of reference and make people and objects in the Southern Hemisphere fall off, rather than pulling inward. One somewhat more reasonable cause of the condescension is that many of the concepts of nature at the time were based more on philosophy than observation.

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Nothing we are taught and given to date provides accuracy it only ever is met with defiance if questioned - The point I am making, the agenda in which to be taught something and a demand you believe it seems more important in the world today by those providing the what we should be educated and this will never sit right with me. Not religiously, scientifically, politically, philosophically.... 

This is the case because "guaranteed facts" of science are based very heavily in proofs and logic. RET is considered fact by science because of the proofs and logic behind it, and that's why many think it's so ridiculous to claim it's false. (Note: I'm speaking subjectively about how people feel about it, not objectively about whether that statement is true here.) Some things, because they undeniably are based on undeniable logic and proofs, can really be considered facts--this happens a lot in mathematics, for example. If one don't believe the Pythagorean Theorem to be true, people will naturally think that person is stupid.

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Nothing we are taught and given to date provides accuracy. . .
Many other things, like the theory of gravity or relativity, are accepted as the most probable explanation of something, generally on a best-fit basis. Based on observation, theories are made more and more accurate and can sometimes predict other phenomenon. For example, Einstein actually predicted the recent discovery of gravitational waves. [nb]While it's not really a theory, the Periodic Table is another good example. Mendeleev found that by organizing the elements by mass (and therefore also proton count and neutral-charge electron count), they were grouped by their properties (because of the electron counts). Because of this, Mendeleev predicted the properties of unknown elements with remarkable accuracy, and some of those were even found because scientists searched for them by those properties. Because they're grouped by mass, valence electrons, and properties all at once, it's the same organization we use to this day. [/nb] If someone were to say they don't believe a theory like this to be the case, they'd most likely be told to prove it wrong or prove something else is more accurate, only because that's how science works. If someone really does prove it wrong, it's accepted as wrong, a new theory is searched for and developed, and science moves on.

If someone were to say they don't believe another theory to be true, one less substantiated by conclusive observation and experiments like evolution, less people lose their minds over it, because less-proven theories are judged more on a best-fit basis than absolute proofs due to the lack of more conclusive evidence. (I don't mean to turn this into a creation/evolution thread, there is notable division over whether evolution properly explains things, so I'm using it as an example.)

In short, science really is all about accuracy, and people are only ridiculed and opposed if they try to deny something without a proof that it's false or a better suggestion; the more accurate the better, and the less mutable it becomes. It gets harder and harder to come up with a better suggestion, so less and less reasonable to doubt it. If somebody strays beyond this reasonable boundary and forces a belief without proper proof, then no, it shouldn't sit well with anyone.

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I cannot determine a belief other than an understanding of we very well could be the complete opposite of what we have been taught we are - Like yourself, I need not only explanations but, hard evidence 

Science!
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That's the point and mentality of science, all is possible unless proven otherwise. The most probable best-fitting remaining theory is the one assumed to be the explanation until scientifically proven otherwise. New theories should cover more of the observable universe and/or have less logical holes in it.

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The southern stars.... An interesting one - I like the mirror ball explanation that expresses lights contradicting movement of clockwise/anticlockwise but, know it would take more than one experiment and understanding to grab and decide upon (as should we all concerning the alleged great minds of which science lays its foundations upon today and have many arguing as to whether we could think for ourselves and contradict )

The main thing about that theory is that the stars still rotate in the same direction when viewed from the equator. The reason they move CW/CCW in the North/South according to RET is a difference in viewer orientation on a uniformly rotating Earth.

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How have I misunderstood the scales involved in perspective? (again I ask respectfully because I truly do not understand)

First off, remember the horizon is (RET) where the curvature of the earth blocks our vision from seeing any farther.

The size ratio of us to Earth is much smaller than that of an ant to that crystal ball. Our eyes are about an inch or less in diameter and Earth has a diameter of thousands of miles; curvature is imperceptible through unaided observation. Especially when we're looking out over land, because the surface is very irregular, unlike that crystal ball. Also, when we're looking around us from the surface, the horizon will be just about level because of the irregularity and the scale. If someone is in a plane or orbit, they have a more distant view of things. From a higher level, you're not looking out at the horizon so much as down at the horizon.

Essentially, when you view it from the elevation of your own height, you're up too close and the curvature is imperceptible due to the size of our eyes. The higher up you go, the more of Earth comes into view, until you definitively the horizon block out the other side of the world in a manner befitting a spherical shape. Perspective shows less overall detail when close up, and allows more when you get farther away. (Again to everyone please don't just say "That's wrong cuz it's flat," OP is asking for an explanation of how it would work on a round Earth and that's all this is.)

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I am leaning more and more towards a belief of the ancient understandings of a circular Earth surrounded by walls mainly because there is so much evidence of history having been mocked and rewritten to fit an agenda of learning and memorizing other peoples understandings and deliberations of fact (again, religiously, politically, scientifically and especially historically) - There is much documentation proving ancient civilizations knew about stars and locations millenia before NASA (in fact the majority of our modern understanding stems from ancient knowledge - yet still we are told how idiotic they were). This alone cannot be ignored (for me at least)  I will indeed look into the southern stars because that is very interesting :)
It's good to reconsider the basics and consider all possibilities every now and then. It's important not to let subjective things--what's been stigmatized and by who--affect our view of empirically verifiable matters. The difference between what was adopted by modern science and what was mocked by history is who had more proof of what they were saying, which is the most important thing. Letting a conspiracy theory be your primary proof is another sure-fire way to break up proofs of your beliefs. They're rarely ever conclusive evidence logically speaking. [nb]For example, even if NASA faked space travel to win the Space Race and help boost Cold War morale, it could very well be that they got stuck on a slippery slope technologically and that's why we don't have space travel, rather than because Earth isn't round. Conversely, if Earth is round that doesn't mean NASA does have space travel. Just because the Freemasons or Illuminati believe Earth is round doesn't mean it's not. Et cetera. In matters of conspiracy, nothing can be viewed in black and white. Many conspiracies have been exposed in the past, but it requires narrowing down a lot of possibilities, often through proofs, and sometimes a bit of dumb luck. Reminds me of an episode of Doctor Who featuring Agatha Christie. Somebody confessed to faking their paraplegia to guilt his wife into staying with him because he thought he had been found out, when Christie was really just going to declare him innocent. Sometimes things just come out.[/nb]


Quick rehash:
Kudos to you for deciding to reconsider the shape of the earth.
Just make sure you decide your final beliefs for the right reasons, either hard evidence or greatest explanatory coverage.
If somebody seems to be forcing a belief on you from RET or FET or really anywhere else, always give careful consideration to the validity of the causes for their conviction before rejecting it. as
Again, sorry for not realizing sooner that my first reply failed to send.
[/size]

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Flat Earth Debate / Re: If you can answer this I will believe you.
« on: May 08, 2016, 06:54:29 PM »
Hi :)

Thank You for responding - Thanks for the half moon and CFC explanation  :)

Thank you for responding based on the content. Sadly some don't. :) Sorry it took me so long to realize my first reply to this post didn't send. Session timeout lol, clearly I didn't copy and paste it so I could still send it. I swear I wrote this days ago.  :( :P
Note: All of these replies are specifically based on and explaining RET unless otherwise specified.

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I have to say many of your responses still do not add up for me as to fully understand - A plane having the ability to move in the air as if still on the ground does not make sense because what goes up does indeed flow with the atmosphere - Science teaches us the higher you go the quicker you will get from A to B because you do actually enhance momentum  (which makes sense) The higher you go, you indeed cover more `ground` at a faster speed - hence satellites within the earths orbit only taking a short amount of time to cover the `globe model`. from 90 minutes to the 24 hour time scale to which again only provides an explanatory faster or at the same pace and not giving an answer of clarity.


The Earth rotates, therefore so do we and the atmosphere. Let's say a car driving 30mph (reference point on surface) with/against that rotation, it will be rotating 30mph faster/slower than the earth (with respect to Earth's axis of rotation). This is an example of both relative and angular motion around the center of the earth. Now, elevation does not affect angular motion. One will travel through the same arc in the same time, but that arc will be longer in a linear sense. Thus, one could say an airplane is travelling faster linearly; however, the linear distance is longer and they still have air resistance, so it's not always worth it. Same thing goes for satellites, I think(?) part of the launch sequence is using rockets to get the satellite to the right orbit and speed. 

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Forgive me, my wording was wrong. It is true a very small scale of Antarctica is open to the public as a tourist attraction - Any exploration other than official Military supported scientific research is what I was meaning and should have said as such - Exploration by independent parties is not and has been agreed upon by the entirety of world leadership though - I would still love to experiment all countries heading directly south and see if they result n the same location - For a Global belief to just shut me up would be enough for me :)
Not quite true. Exploration is "restricted" in the sense that travel agencies like the FAA have to know that you're prepared, and the same restrictions apply to the North Pole, too. A better word to describe it is "regulated". Here's Boeing's information on it:
Quote from: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_16/polar_story.html
The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) requires U.S. operators to obtain specific approval to conduct polar operations. The approval process validates airlines' preparedness to conduct such operations. . .
<List of subheadings for a quick overview, redundant ones omitted to save space.>
1. REGULATORY GUIDANCE
Airport requirements for designation as en route alternates
Airline recovery plan for passengers at diversion alternates
Minimum equipment list considerations
Airline (crew) training
Dispatch and crew considerations during solar flare
Special equipment
2. EN ROUTE ALTERNATE AIRPORTS
Regulatory considerations for alternate airports
3. COLD FUEL MANAGEMENT
Fuel systems and temperature measurement
Factors affecting fuel temperature
Operations and procedures with low fuel temperatures
Operational aids for flight planning
4. COMMUNICATION AND NAVIGATION
The reason Arctic flights don't seem to make a big deal of it is that there's so many back and forth between North America, Europe, and Asia that it's worth it for airlines to have all of this set up. On the other hand, there aren't many major international airports on the Australian continent, Cape Horn, and the Cape of Good Hope that both line up just right for flights to cross Antarctica and have flights on those routes regular enough for the hassle, so such flights generally reroute around the polar region instead. However, there is a niche tourist agency called Antarctica Flights that does go through these processes so people can freely fly over the Antarctic continent; there's no restrictions on where people can go as long as the government is confident they won't just blunder on in, kill themselves, and leave a smoldering plane wreck or anything.

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NASA photos of Earth do not differ... 

Please go check out NASA`s  2015

  http://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/nasa-captures-epic-earth-image

 and 2012

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_2159.html

on their own website and tell me these images alone do not spark even a slight doubt on the difference? There are many over the last decade which I encourage you to seek for yourself - The two provided are the best regarding absolute lunacy of alteration in America`s scale

Note the information posted on the pages about the satellites the pictures were taken with. The first is a plain old picture taken in one shot; it shows America's true scale. The second is what's called a composite image. A low-flying satellite takes pictures of a strip of the surface every ten minutes or so; because it's much closer, it will naturally distort scale and make it seem much larger than it really is because of this distance difference and perspective. These are then meshed together (yes, photoshop or whatever program they use at NASA) to take the 2D images of the 3D earth and splice them together on a CGI 3D sphere. The reason the picture looks fake is because technically it is. Still kinda neat what they can do with them though. If they aren't trying to turn the image back into a globe, composite images of a limited selection of Earth will tend to be more accurate in depicting the scale of the continents than a regular cartographic projection of the globe; they just aren't to proper scale with the size of Earth, but make for good regional maps. Did that help make sense how it all works? The first was one camera, one take, while the second was the result of a longer scan.

Quote
NASA footage
 
 http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/hd/  (animation footage provideded by NASA) NASA stating themselves the images are animated not footage

http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=57760 (evidence given by nasa that they are not actual images taken but, collections of alleged satellite observations)

Why animations and collections of alleged satellite observations? Why not actual footage? Why not actual anything?

I am desperate to see the video footage of the moving clouds on a spinning globe that you say you have seen because I cannot find any that NASA has not stated is animation themselves please can you provide that link as it would indeed answer a lot for me. I cannot find the footage you have seen, not even on NASAs own site 
Here I can't quite help you. I know there is animated footage of this created from timelapses of single-shot cameras somewhere out there. I've seen some but don't have any links. I saw NASA's site has some animations but from the thumbnails I think they were primarily exhibiting what the satellites were like. I never got a chance to watch any of the videos, that's just my best guess as to why they aren't actual footage. (Satellites can't quite take pictures of themselves lol, it needs to be CGI for that particular purpose.) If you primarily want to see cloud movements, you can try weather satellites. They tend to only display water content for practical reasons, but if there's a major storm like a supercell system or hurricanes/typhoons (you might need to wait a bit  :-\) they usually show visual footage because it's interesting to look at and I'm sure useful for meteorologists. Sorry I don't have any sources for you right now.

Quote

Copernicus - My point being it was his `theorizing` that brought the globe model to the today`s understanding without evidence and in all fairness you say the Greeks  `proved` a globe but, this is not true and cannot be considered as such they indeed pondered upon it philosophically, I ask you to provide the proof of which you speak.

Greek philosophers mostly philosophized about it, and although most agreed that the earth was round there wasn't too much proof in their day. One was the "two sticks" proof based on shadows at different latitudes at the summer solstice. This provided the same sun angle[nb]They based this proof and its math on the assumption that the sun was far enough away that its light came, for all practical purposes, straight down. [/nb], but--if the Earth is curved--different angles at which the light reached the sticks. One even used it to calculate the curvature to within 20% of the value commonly accepted today.

I've seen some FE posts saying that the sun's lower elevation would still allow it to work, so until somebody does the math based on an assumption that the Earth is flat I don't know if it supports FE or not. Rowbotham probably covered it in his book. If that's where the 3k-mile-altitude came from, the two sticks isn't a proof of either model.

Also, Copernicus was not executed for proposing that Earth was round. This was already widely accepted in his day. He was pettily executed because of a frame of reference issue--he proposed that Earth revolved around the sun and throughout the universe, as opposed to the Church's stance that the universe revolved around the round Earth, and was promptly labeled a heretic.

77
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: Gravitational lensing
« on: May 08, 2016, 03:30:39 PM »
Really; the whole 'the cleverest man in the world is a corpse in a wheelbarrow' thing is an insuperable stumbling-block for me when it comes to your 'this is proof' malarkey.

Until you provide a valid reason for me to believe a single thing connected with your account, I will refuse to heed a single post.

Of course, you could resolve this situation by simply ceasing your tedious, circular replies...

But I doubt you will.

Newtsmooth, just block Papa Legba like I have. Don't waste your time trying to address his ranty insults. He can't do science and has no business in this thread.
I once presumed a blocking feature would never have a place in academic debate, but I do stand corrected now that I've seen an example. I was younger then, and full of hope. Thanks for pointing that out.

78

I would presume that gravity does not exist.  Next question please.

The other planets clearly have moons, and the downward force that most attribute to gravity grows stronger near ore deposits and deflects pendulums toward mountains (Schiehallion experiment). There's debate as to the accuracy of the measurements, but the fact that there were any measurements to take doesn't seem to fit well with universal acceleration.

Here is my question, oh wise Addresser of Content, Prover of Claims, Omniscient Sage of Science--pray do tell, why do these things observably continue to be?

Perhaps the Earth is not a planet?
B-but, Addresser of Content, Prover of Claims, Omniscient Sage of Science--the other planets clearly are planets and hold their moons in orbit, and even if the Earth were not a planet we do have ores and mountains. The shape of the Earth has no bearing on these things, and yet these things bear evidence of the attraction of masses. I do not mean to be rude, but I was hoping for more sagely addressing and proving.

79
On a leaving note, quick question. How did they dig up the millions of tree stumps after the deforestation for the millions of acres of farms in the 1800's?
Was it done like this?
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I presume a more efficient method, like tilling because they'd have to anyway [nb]Tilling is an agricultural method of preparing soil by overturning.[/nb] and to prevent grasses from lighting much, [nb]Neither grass nor soil are present in tree stumps, so tilling a tree stump will not be very efficient, especially if targeting brush fire risks, as stated.[/nb] then setting the stumps on fire. They wouldn't have had to tend to the stumps much afterwards, the field is already tilled, and there's free fertilizer in the hole.

Goodbye. [nb]I'll actually probably never leave and end up dying in this thread. I hope I'll have the sense to quit trying to talk sense into someone who doesn't understand what implications are, though.[/nb]

Edit: Footnotes [1] and [2] added for any who failed to grasp the simple logic behind my conjecture, and [3] to add more information on my (tragically) continued entrapment in this ignorant, spammy, trolled, godforsaken thread.

80

I would presume that gravity does not exist.  Next question please.

The other planets clearly have moons, and the downward force that most attribute to gravity grows stronger near ore deposits and deflects pendulums toward mountains (Schiehallion experiment). There's debate as to the accuracy of the measurements, but the fact that there were any measurements to take doesn't seem to fit well with universal acceleration.

Here is my question, oh wise Addresser of Content, Prover of Claims, Omniscient Sage of Science--pray do tell, why do these things observably continue to be?

81
Flat Earth Debate / Re: The Spinning Of The Earth Is Impossible.
« on: May 08, 2016, 02:40:59 PM »
Oh no, astronomers find precession forms a roughly sinusoidal curve, it's not derived from anything sinusoidal but purely in terms of the results my high-school-physics-level crackpot guess wasn't too far off, even figures derived from Newcomb's work don't portray the acceleration as linear, there's more accurate and more precise figures used by astronomers than the numbers you're throwing around, and they cite more numerous, detailed, authentic, and credible sources than things like astronomoo.com and flat earth threads. My trust and allegiances are torn.

For those unfamiliar, the definition of “exponential” is “increasing at an increasing rate”.

I have no idea how you can call Alpha2Omega a troll for not having your level of supreme insight when you have as imprecise an idea of basic exponential formulas as this.

Perihelion precession remains completely and absolutely unexplained by modern astrophysics.

Absolutely not. I saw another thread where somebody said perfect elliptical orbits are impossible because they would require a second gravitational body at the other focus of their orbit to keep them in the same path. Their linear velocity would sling them somewhat out of their orbit because, towards their aphelion, gravitational pull would be weaker and take longer to pull them back towards the sun to preserve their orbit, thus moving the orbit. Well, it does, it's just that it doesn't have an effect on the eccentricity. By the time gravity does begin to accelerate the body inwards, its orbit has "walked" a bit in the direction of its revolution.

Animation of the shifting orbit.

In fact, Einstein had to fudge the terms in the Mercury perihelion equation, in order to reach the final result, as you all know by now.

When we don't know everything about the universe and have a margin of error in measuring data, it's hardly surprising that the equation one finds best represents all data is slightly off and we have to "fudge" the numbers. If you roll a die and model the data with the equation tn = t/6 where t = number of times rolled and tn is the times n was the result, you'd have to fudge the numbers to even have that obvious equation, even when you have a perfect knowledge of how a die works and zero margin of error in measurement. It'll still be off because of the perturbations and variations in how the die is rolled. It's pretty easy to understand how all three factors--not understanding it yet (the whole reason why science is even a thing), having inaccurate measurements (a given for any measurement especially older ones with older equipment), and having perturbations in the orbit (like asteroid impacts)--could make that "fudging" perfectly reasonable.

So 1) how much fudge are we talking about, and 2) it sure wasn't enough for me to know it was anything significant. If it wasn't a noteworthy amount of fudging, there's no reason to doubt his equation. (Especially within the margin of error, at that point who even cares about the possibility of perturbations?)

And we would get directly into the first law of planetary motion paradoxes: the fudging of the data on Mars by Kepler,

I don't know anything about this yet so I looked it up. It was a pretty shallow half-hearted search as I have five essays and six finals to take in the next three weeks so I don't have time to read this whole article, but the first paragraph says
At the same time he reconceptualized "oppositions" as based upon the observed, rather than "average," position of the Sun, Kepler analyzed Brahe's individual observations of Mars for potential errors of various other kinds.  In Chapters 8-15 of the Astronomia Nova, Kepler explored how optical issues and errors in computation could skew observations of a planet.


I'll most certainly read more later and read more than just one site, and you can read more of it if you like, but so far it already seems he wasn't just "fudging the data" and was actually making corrections to experimental errors. Corrections that I assume are now widely accepted if you're bringing them up as if they're Devil's work.

the impossibility of an elliptical orbit for the planets.
You'd better source the living daylights out of that claim, and I want an actual source based on the work of non-armchair astronomers rather than just your interpretation of a watered-down explanation of their work. Elliptical orbits have been well-documented for centuries and if you expect me to just believe you when you say they're impossible, that's hilarious.


We can add to this the double forces of attractive gravitation paradox and much more.
How many times must this be said for you to stop ignoring it? It's a well-documented scientific problem and field of study. Science still having fields of study doesn't authoritatively mean everything we know is wrong.

Gravitational waves have been discovered, so we're one step closer. These were proposed by Albert Einstein, the proponent of the theory of relativity. Apparently they're similar to electromagnetic energy, transmitted by photons which act as waves; gravitons could very well behave the same way, behaving as both a particle as a wave. Yes, it does contradict Newtonian gravity, but it would also help explain universal expansion because then universal gravitation couldn't be true. And on as small and steady a scale as our solar system astronomically speaking, even if they travel as slowly as light, it really wouldn't make much of a difference.

In short, it's proven beyond any reasonable doubt that gravity exists, so gravitation really doesn't have too many issues, other than why. So the double-forces-of-gravitation question isn't a paradox whatsoever, it's a two-option choice between which of the two theories explains things better. We only still have both of them around because both explain certain things very well and can be used to model those things very well.

In light of this, what in the world are you getting at here? Why are you beating a fossilized horse? Too many of your arguments are boiling down to "Scientists don't know everything and have a margin of error, so I guess that proves Earth isn't round, everyone's a Freemason, and all who doubt me are just retarded butthurt trolls."

82
In virtually every deforested region there's strong motives for reforestation. Maybe before you call others stupid and unreasonable, you could pick up a book.
Tell me who deforested the Great Plains? I looked in a book but found nothing.
Oops, mixed Great Plains with Midwest. Where I live there actually has been significant deforestation, and even in the actual Great Plains some farmers do still plant trees at field borders even though there were formerly no trees there. The reason they do this isn't because they deforested it but because they've stripped the land of grasses so they can farm it, so they need to block out some of the wind to keep the soil from blowing away when the field isn't planted. If you've never heard of this, try "Dust Bowl". So there's still reasons to reforest even without deforestation.

Given that OP's been authoritatively disproven already, that this is completely unrelated to the OP or flat earth in general, and
6) Anyways, IMO, who cares what you think. Obviously, you are in the group of people that don't care about humanity (its survival). I had another link about "killer asteroids" that FEers don't believe in because, hey, the sky is only a couple thousand miles up. Someone one else had the same total disregard for protection from them as you do about trees. Oh, well.
I'm going to leave this discussion because it's getting ridiculous and I'm simply tired of arguing about why we need trees.

83
Flat Earth Debate / Re: The Spinning Of The Earth Is Impossible.
« on: May 08, 2016, 06:04:29 AM »
This shows us the precession rate has increased over the past 100 years by .0346 for an average of .000346” per/year. Comparing this to Newcomb’s 0.000222” figure,  we can see the actual rate of change has not simply increased at a “constant” rate – it has increased at an “exponential” rate.

No. Nonono. Non-linear does not mean exponential. Do you have any other data to actually show it to be specifically exponential? Because again, there's a sine factor in torque.

A TOTAL AND COMPLETE DEFIANCE OF NEWTONIAN ORBITAL MECHANICS.

The mass of the Sun/Moon/planets has not increased (we all know that the mass of the Sun is actually constantly decreasing).

The orbital distances are the same (and the Moon is constantly receding from the Earth).

The mass of the sun is decreasing, yes, negligibly. Here a Stanford professor runs through the math.
http://solar-center.stanford.edu/FAQ/Qshrink.html

And yes, the moon recedes too, but also relatively negligibly. It's at a rate at or below 3cm/year if I remember correctly and that's not enough to give any noteworthy change in gravitation on an annual basis.

So no, the sun, moon, and planets are not responsible by only increased gravitational pull, and their gravitation is also hardly decreasing...

Precession has nothing to do with the law of attractive gravitation.

...so, given that precessional acceleration has nothing to do with changes to attractive gravitation, I still want to know how apsidal precession is involved--an orientation change.

HOW or WHY does Sirius keep up so precisely with the exponentially increasing rate of precession?

How can Sirius' proper motion stay synched up so precisely with precession, when the rate of precession itself is changing?


If any local force here the "heliocentrical" solar system drove up the rate of precession, it would NOT also drive up the proper motion of Sirius across the sky.


In the official theory of astrophysics, Sirius is 8.6 LIGHT YEARS from Earth.

THAT IS 81 TRILLION KILOMETERS.

And yet it keeps up precisely with the exponential increase of the rate of precession.


Dr. Jad Buchwald (Caltech):

Sirius remains about the same distance from the equinoxes—and so from the solstices— throughout these many centuries, despite precession.

".... despite precession, Sirius and the solstice must remain about the same distance in time from one another during most of Egyptian history."
Sirius is one of the major questions of modern astronomy so again I'll leave this here.
Text not included in-post because I'm just repeating this to ensure you saw it, so I don't want to waste page space.
Understanding Sirius is one of those curious things that would further improve an already well-founded theory once understood, but it alone is hardly enough evidence to completely debunk RET given the nature of scientific progress.

84
Flat Earth Debate / Re: The Spinning Of The Earth Is Impossible.
« on: May 07, 2016, 10:59:46 PM »
This shows us the precession rate has increased over the past 100 years by .0346 for an average of .000346” per/year. Comparing this to Newcomb’s 0.000222” figure,  we can see the actual rate of change has not simply increased at a “constant” rate – it has increased at an “exponential” rate.
Okay, so axial precession is in fact accelerating. Nobody doubts that anyway. And if you're confident in your math, feel free to submit it to tested and proven knowledgeable scientists. They'd be happy to consider whether Newcomb's figure needs to be reworked. That's the nice thing about science--it's not some unchangeable thing. As things become clearer the theories become more accurate.

So I'll just gonna leave this here again just in case your hatred of NASA has blinded you to the nature of academic progress.
Text not included in-post because I'm just repeating this to ensure you saw it, so I don't want to waste page space.
Same thing applies to the cause of precession.

Note: I'm no expert and haven't read this whole giant thread yet but seeing as precession is caused by torque from something, torque includes a sinusoidal function of varying application angles, the tilt of the earth varies with the location in Earth's revolution and apsidal precession, and sinusoidal functions appear to be exponential when analyzed on such a small scale as data collected from 1900 until now in a 20k+ year period, my faith in existing figures isn't completely shaken.

The original proponents of these worked on them as their day jobs not in their free time and were freer to delve into all the complexities of the system. I trust them because of the rigorous nature of peer review and analysis of proofs, bringing to mind a Mythbusters motto "If it's science it's repeatable." I'm unaware of your circumstances so I'm not 100% confident you're at the same liberty to research these things--I dont mean to say you're not, again, I just don't know your life.

Of course, since I haven't read this whole thread (too many long posts and quotes, I've just been doing my best to keep up with present discussion, and am trying to make semester deadlines anyway currently), please give a link to a post if you've already covered all the ins-and-outs of apsidal precession, and I'll read on from there in what's already been discussed.

85
I bet you are doubting your own round earth beliefs, and this makes you angrier.
Do you ever address the content of a post? And no. Since I came here I've only learned more of why Earth can't be flat. Seeing shitposts like this is what makes me angrier.

EDIT: Took the lengthy inner quote out to save page space.

86
[1) Because the trees are important for more than just some of our oxygen production. Do you have any idea how many of the world's ecosystems are reliant on trees? If there were no trees anymore there would be a mass extinction event
Thats cute, we will be fine. There are more trees on earth now than ever.
Although, you probably still think Mongolia and the Great Plains need replanting.
I don't know about about Mongolia in detail so I won't go into that.
In the Great Plains, it's important to replant around fields to prevent erosion while fields aren't planted. Anyone who knows anything about agriculture would tell you that.

If you ever stop cherry-picking facts to unempirically support your ignorance, maybe try reading about the number of species unique to the Amazon and its rate of deforestation, along with the other effects of this like the more feral ones losing their habitats and prowling human inhabited areas instead.

In virtually every deforested region there's strong motives for reforestation. Maybe before you call others stupid and unreasonable, you could pick up a book.

87
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: Gravitational lensing
« on: May 07, 2016, 07:39:07 AM »
Reported for low content posting & neanderthal memberating (possibly?).

Nobody's given a proper answer as to how the observable phenomenon of stars being warped circularly around a single dark region is explained by Flat Earth. If FET is going to be accepted at all you're going to have to actually account for everything the RET does, making this a perfectly reasonable question.

Also, how is memberating here "Neanderthal" when Jroa is constantly "low content posting" and doing absolutely nothing to add to the discussion?

Now; 'gravitational lensing' (snigger!)...

The nursery rhyme 'Twinkle, twinkle little star' contains as much 'truth' as the entire field of modern astrophysics.

(snigger!) That was pretty funny.

It is a great tragedy of our age that so many intelligent people are sucked into wasting their whole lives in the study of shit that they cannot prove & nobody normal cares about anyway.

Well seeing as their work is constantly proving things and they do a good job of it, I'd hardly call it a tragedy. Plus if nobody should care about it how come everybody here is constantly trying to say it's wrong?

The most obvious proof that it is all a fraud of mighty lulziness is the fact that their hero, Hawking, is clearly a corpse in a wheelbarrow with a boom-box stuck to it, that can be made to emit any old shite, no matter how preposterous & unscientific, & its sci-fi brainwashed fan-boys will eat it all up.

This isn't a proof. Just because it could just be some bums talking through a Speak-and-Spell on some veggie's wheelchair doesn't mean it is. Even if he "is clearly a corpse in a wheelbarrow with a boom-box stuck to it" that doesn't mean the people speaking for that corpse have no idea what they're doing. Care to address the content of what he says rather than Hawking himself? Are you ever going to actually try to kill the message instead of the messenger, or are you just going to keep leading ignorant people into thinking this is a legitimate way to prove something? You see, the scientists who you say have no idea what they're doing actually do peer-reviews on each other's work to make sure it isn't just a bunch of idiots and so far science has done pretty well.

As practical jokes go, 'astrophysics' has to be a 10/10.
Again, are you actually going to objectively prove astrophysics is a joke or just keep trying to subjectively prove that astrophysicists' lives are a joke? Those are two entirely different things.

88
I accept your apology, but back to the tree thing. Firstly a REer brought trees into the debate,

No. Here's that REer's post. You can see that he was using them as an illustration of the point that if you can clearly and obviously observe that something isn't true, there is no reason to believe it.
Because it is and has been proved as complete nonsense by not only the picture I have posted, but by the experiences of anyone who has ever seen rain fall from a cloud, which I postulate is around 99.99999% of mankind. It was off to a non-start.

Have you seen rain fall from a cloud? Do you think that rain is independent of clouds and falls from the firmament? If I told you that trees didn't actually grow from the ground, but grew from an invisible substance a metre above the ground would you think that was a sensible suggestion? Or would the fact that you can actually see them growing from the ground make my suggestion "complete nonsense"? Ask yourself these questions Tappet.

then I questioned whether we really need them to breathe.

Again pretty flippant. It implied richaddis was saying something nonsensical, when really he was only informing you on why you shouldn't believe something nonsensical.

Another REer confirmed my beliefs saying 80% of oxygen comes from algae, but then you arrived babbling all sorts of nonsense.

Yep. Most oxygen does come from algae and trees do still metabolize. Both true there.

Now I am going to question why we need to carry on with this world wide tree planting charade (1) and you are going to tell me why I am not as intelligent as you (2) and that we all have to plant trees. (3)
I look forward to your next reply, good luck. (4)
(1) Because the trees are important for more than just some of our oxygen production. Do you have any idea how many of the world's ecosystems are reliant on trees? If there were no trees anymore there would be a mass extinction event
(2) You had a rough time even understanding the natures of knowledge and observation. Those speak for themselves here.
(3) Most people don't want the global extinctions mentioned in (1) to occur.
(4) Typical FE conviction that nobody can answer them and they need that luck. Please step down off your pedestal, you might hurt yourself.

89
Flat Earth Debate / Re: The Spinning Of The Earth Is Impossible.
« on: May 06, 2016, 09:58:20 PM »
Does human knowledge account for everything? No.
Were we around for the creation of the solar system? No.
Is the current theory incredibly specific? No.
Does the current theory account for absolutely everything, such as this angular momentum issue? No.
Does that prove the theory is fundamentally wrong? No.
Is the theory considered complete and verified history by astronomers anyway? No.
Because of this hole, is the protoplanetary disk theory no longer the most accurate model of how the solar system formed? No.
Are scientists supposed to just stop trying to find an answer when they hit a wall? No.
Will they? No.
Should they? No.
Does a hole in present knowledge mean all previous understanding goes out the window? No.

You're blowing this problem out of proportion. It's an attempt to explain events that occurred billions of years before human history by analyzing the results after the fact. The solar system obviously would have had significant interference from external objects that are now long gone in the billions of years from then to now. So obviously we really have no idea what we're doing here. The protoplanetary disk theory obviously has that hole in it that needs filling; it's still the best guess we've ever had and therefore accepted because it still fits the rest of what we can see. So was anything about this discrepancy supposed to have a noteworthy impact on RET vs FET when FET supporters can't even agree on how the sun works, let alone take guesses at how it formed?

90
You're not even going to try to refute my evidence? Okay. Just shows the hypocritical nature of you REers.
I once saw a quote in a sig saying "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
Tadaaaa~. Thoroughly and utterly refuted regardless. Hope you're happy now.

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