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Messages - boydster

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8251
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Newtons third law
« on: June 04, 2016, 07:43:58 PM »
So you're saying somewhere below 100km altitude, Newton's 3rd Law breaks down completely then?

No I am not.

Ok, so which part of the diagram was wrong then?

8252
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Newtons third law
« on: June 04, 2016, 05:18:15 PM »
What altitude does the rocket fail?

Well below the Karman Line at 100km.

Not even momentum will get it beyond that...

So you're saying somewhere below 100km altitude, Newton's 3rd Law breaks down completely then? Or is the diagram below wrong somehow?



The propellant is burned in the combustion chamber. The exhaust wants to expand equally in all directions, but it can only escape in one direction. Keep in mind, this is a rather explosive combustion. The rocket needs to move in the opposite direction with equal force to the escaping exhaust to be in agreement with Newton's 3rd Law. Anything different would be a violation of the law. How is this hard to grasp?

8253
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Turning the wrong way at the ice wall
« on: June 04, 2016, 05:12:25 PM »
Tell your CSIRO scientist buddy to stop making up stories, IMO!

What reason do you have to believe he's making the story up? Because it doesn't agree with your world view?

I think the standard FE response to any assertion someone makes about RE is something to the effect of "have you actually witnessed this event yourself?" So to that, I say: have you ever navigated around the entirety of Antarctica yourself to have any basis to assume the original story to be a lie?

Flat Earthers are already dismissing any kind of scientific evidence presented as lies and conspiracy, demanding people perform experiments and report results themselves. Now you are going to tell me that someone actually going out and taking a boat around Antarctica and taking note of the fact that their path was in agreement with RE also isn't good enough?

Scientific evidence is off the table. Anecdotal evidence is also apparently off the table. What's that leave? If I meditate on the shape of the Earth, have an out-of-body experience, and my power animal reveals the shape of the Earth to me, can I submit that as evidence?

8254
I didnt move the goal posts. Originally I said can you get a reptile scale to a bird feather or at least intended that. So I'll clarify. You can't get a reptile scale into a bird feather. They have different gene sequence. Plus I'd addressed you claim to begin with.

Ok, but still you are not addressing the fact that there is no need to go from reptile scale to bird feather, as one most likely didn't mutate into the other, hence the links and quotes that I shared in addition to the bird gene. Implying that one has to either prove a reptile scale can mutate into a bird feather or else God created everything so that they must stay within "kinds" is a false dichotomy. If that is not what you are implying then I apologize in advance, but that certainly seems to me what you have implied.

For evolution not to be possible, there needs to be some delineation beyond which change can no longer happen. Once we have established that mutations can occur, the burden to prove that delineation is real falls on the party claiming it exists. Insertions, deletions, and changes to DNA are all well documented in biology - I mention that specifically to ward off the "new information" argument from earlier in the thread. Insertions are new additions to DNA and can happen for a number of reasons (a cursory Google search will certainly show you a plethora of examples), meaning there is a known pathway for new information to appear in DNA.

It should be no surprise that over the course of billions of years, once a self-replicating molecule (and abiogenesis is not the topic at hand so let's leave that alone for now) appears with a mechanism for mutation, evolution naturally follows with all of the beauty and variety we see today. The essential ingredient is that first molecule that can replicate. From then on, natural selection will necessarily drive change. To include some sort of restriction that a certain arrangement of genetic code can only ever mutate to a certain degree so that things can't deviate beyond their original "kind" seems ad-hoc to me and would need some kind of strong justification.

8255
I guess with your latest post, i guess it's a meme/shitpost. I'll bite. Ladies and gentlemen, introducing DONUT EARTH!

This theory proposes that the sun and moon go THROUGH the hole in the world, so day and night can work!! That's the first "troll" post i've made so far. If you want to continue with the ring earth theory, you're already part of the intellictual elite

Come on now. You've already claimed that both flat and round earth are wrong. You're saying the ring earth is a troll post. So what is it really in your estimation? Surely you have a non-trolling answer.

8256
Neato. Brandon showed up to make his first post immediately after you mentioned his name, Pugs. Now you guys show up at the same time to start posting in this thread again today. That's so cool how in sync you guys are. You must have a special connection.

So, I've seen threads where you are claiming checkmate to both FEs and REs. With equally compelling arguments both ways. Apparently everyone is wrong about the shape of the Earth. So please, don't keep toying with us, share your knowledge about what the Earth is actually shaped like. Or maybe Brandon could shed some light on this?

8257
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Newtons third law
« on: June 03, 2016, 07:03:37 PM »
How can the energy from a Inanimate Object be transferred into "Thrust"?

Combustion, for one.
combustion is false too.  why doesn't a match shoot forwards whenever you light it? checkmate

Combustion is false? You win the internet, sir. Well done. You can collect your prize at the nearest corner of the flat Earth.

8258
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Newtons third law
« on: June 03, 2016, 06:55:22 PM »
How can the energy from a Inanimate Object be transferred into "Thrust"?

Combustion, for one.

8259
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Newtons third law
« on: June 03, 2016, 06:50:49 PM »
thrust is a propaganda construct of NASA, no proof there, try again.

Interesting. Because this George Cayley guy seems to get some credit for knowing a thing or two about thrust way before there was ever a NASA.

8260
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Newtons third law
« on: June 03, 2016, 06:40:54 PM »
Yes but how would that work with a rocket taking off?

Go grab a lighter and turn it on, you notice the flame always going up no matter which way you orient the lighter. YOU CAN SEE THIS YOURSELF!
Now when a rocket is launching why does the flame suddenly point downwards if it normally always points upwards??

I bet NASA uses holograms that look like flames but upside down for those rockets because this stuff is in no way possible.



Lighter fire goes up:


Rocket fire goes down:


MAGIC!

It's well described with math... would that be getting a little too in-depth for you? Here's the equation with a pretty picture (ignore that evil NASA word on it. You won't.):


Tell me... what's the mass flow rate coming out of the lighter? And the velocity and area? Do you think those numbers are going to be small by comparison to a rocket??

why doesnt the fire go up in NASA's image? that's right, because it is FAKE

Hint: It has to do with that velocity term

8261
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Newtons third law
« on: June 03, 2016, 06:38:24 PM »
Yes but how would that work with a rocket taking off?

Go grab a lighter and turn it on, you notice the flame always going up no matter which way you orient the lighter. YOU CAN SEE THIS YOURSELF!
Now when a rocket is launching why does the flame suddenly point downwards if it normally always points upwards??

I bet NASA uses holograms that look like flames but upside down for those rockets because this stuff is in no way possible.



Lighter fire goes up:


Rocket fire goes down:


MAGIC!

It's well described with math... would that be getting a little too in-depth for you? Here's the equation with a pretty picture (ignore that evil NASA word on it. You won't.):


Tell me... what's the mass flow rate coming out of the lighter? And the velocity and area? Do you think those numbers are going to be small by comparison to a rocket??

8262
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Newtons third law
« on: June 03, 2016, 06:33:55 PM »
How do you explain then why in "orbit" around the "round" earth you don't continue flying outwards forever if you burn fuel westwards? you're locked in the planet's orbit? contradictions? proves why flat eart is real

You're barely coherent, and I feel that's being generous, but I am trying to understand what you are writing just the same. It seems you are confusing thrust with gravity. Whether the Earth is flat or round, thrust in a rocket engine works the same. Perhaps you wanted to post that in a thread about how gravity works?

8263
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Newtons third law
« on: June 03, 2016, 06:24:54 PM »
You're misinterpreting the law. What it means is if (AND ONLY IF!!!) the earth was round it would work. seeign as how the earth is a infinite flat plane of existence,  the flame curves inwards so it would work. Both scientists Kevin Welsh and Professor Derek Ehle proved this in their study against Newton's law. TL;DR: 3rd law is a HOAX

Hard to argue with rock-solid willful ignorance like that, I guess...
your debates are null. Round earth is false4

Please. Flame curves inwards because infinite plane of existence? Car engine works because it's parallel to Earth's center of mass??? Combustion in a chamber with a small hole for exhaust to escape creates an unbalanced force as the expanding exhaust is forced to move out of the hole. It's a really simple concept. And testable.

8264
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Newtons third law
« on: June 03, 2016, 06:15:56 PM »
You're misinterpreting the law. What it means is if (AND ONLY IF!!!) the earth was round it would work. seeign as how the earth is a infinite flat plane of existence,  the flame curves inwards so it would work. Both scientists Kevin Welsh and Professor Derek Ehle proved this in their study against Newton's law. TL;DR: 3rd law is a HOAX

Hard to argue with rock-solid willful ignorance like that, I guess...

8265
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Newtons third law
« on: June 03, 2016, 06:00:43 PM »
why would fire of the propellant make the rocket fly away??
does fire give some magic round-earth force that pushes it away?
when i light my fireplace it doesnt go and fly away into space so why would a rocket
this is stupid NASA hoax stuff how could anyone be so stupid to believe this



The propellant is burned in the combustion chamber. The exhaust wants to expand equally in all directions, but it can only escape in one direction. Keep in mind, this is a rather explosive combustion. The rocket needs to move in the opposite direction with equal force to the escaping exhaust to be in agreement with Newton's 3rd Law. Anything different would be a violation of the law. How is this hard to grasp?

[nb]Image borrowed from http://www.dictionary.com/browse/rocket-engine[/nb]

8266
What they did with the chicken was expressed a gen already in place. Chicken scales are different than reptile scales.

You asked: "Can you point to any mutation that can create a feather from a scale?" It's right there, man. Let's not move the goal posts. Further, the feather gene and the scale gene are the same, with a deletion making the gene express as a feather instead of a scale. That's a little different than just expressing a gene that was already in place. They removed some of the actual feather gene and scales showed up. (Also worth asking: could this be considered a beneficial mutation, using a trimmed version of the feather gene for scales? I think one could certainly make the argument that it is beneficial.)

I also stated that there's no reason to rule out the possibility that feathers on dinosaurs didn't actual evolve from their scales. Check out the second link I posted if you have a few minutes. Beyond the portion I quoted, it discusses the evolution of feathers quite a bit further, and addresses this very concept that scales and feathers could have evolved independently rather than one mutating into the other. You are creating a false dichotomy by saying essentially (I'm paraphrasing here, but I don't think unfairly) either dinosaur scales evolved into feathers or God.

Here's another source that discusses feathers likely showing up as completely new structures in dinosaurs, rather than as evolved/mutated scales:

http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cowen/historyoflife/feathersandflight.html
Quote
EXTRACTS FROM HISTORY OF LIFE, 3rd edition (2000)
From Chapter 13:

The Origin of Feathers
The proteins that make feathers in living birds are completely unlike the proteins that make reptilian scales today. Feathers originate in a skin layer deep under the outer layer that forms scales. It is very unlikely that feathers evolved from reptilian scales, even though that thought is deeply embedded in the minds of too many paleontologists. Feathers probably arose as new structures under and between reptile scales, not as modified scales. Many birds have scales on their lower legs and feet where feathers are not developed, and penguins have such short feathers on parts of their wings that the skin there is scaly for all practical purposes. So there is no real anatomical problem in imagining the evolution of feathers on a scaly reptilian skin. But feathers evolved in theropods as completely new structures, and any reasonable explanation of their origin has to take this into account.

Just do a search for "not as modified scales" on that page and you'll see how the text was updated over the years. I think they go over 3 different editions, so it should show up 3 times.

8267
The DNA of feathers doesn't exist in reptile scales so where did the information came from?

I'm just catching up on this thread and it's an interesting topic. While I don't have a lot of time to write a long post and respond to much of what I've read so far, I wanted to share something specific to the scales-to-feathers argument that you have been making.

From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC557315/  (emphasis mine)

Quote
DNA sequences have been obtained for embryonic chick feather and scale keratin genes. Strong homologies exist between the protein coding regions of the two gene types and between the deduced amino acid sequences of the keratin proteins. Scale keratins are larger than feather keratins and the size difference is mainly attributable to four 13-amino acid repeats between residues 77 and 128 which compose a peptide sequence rich in glycine and tyrosine. The strong similarities between the two peptide structures for feather and scale in the homologous regions suggests a similar conformation within the protein filaments. A likely consequence is that the additional repeat region of the scale protein is located externally to the core filament. Tissue-specific features of filament aggregation may be attributable to this one striking sequence difference between the constituent proteins. It is believed that the genes share a common ancestry and that feather-like keratin genes may have evolved from a scale keratin gene by a single deletion event.

In this case, the gene that encodes for a feather is practically the same as the gene that encodes for a scale, except the feather gene has had a bit of a hair cut, so to speak. So you could argue that no new information was needed to go from scale to feather, but actually information was deleted. But still, the change is certainly noticeable - much like Jane's earlier references (the real and the hypothetical ones both). Now that we have some solid evidence that it is possible to go from scale (longer gene sequence) to feather (shorter sequence) in one case, why should anyone exclude that possibility from dinosaur scales? What evidence is there to say that would be impossible?

There are also reasons to consider that perhaps feathers didn't evolve from mutated scales, but independently: http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/feather_evolution.htm

Quote
Based on fossil evidence, we know that the first non-avian theropods with simple, single-filament feathers lived about 190 million years ago, and that non-avian theropods with feathers having a complex branching structure like those of present-day birds (pennaceous feathers) existed about 135 million years ago. This fossil evidence raises two important questions. First, if not derived from scales, how did feathers evolve and, second, how did simple, single-filament feathers evolve to become much more complex pennaceous feathers? Of course, a related question is, given that non-avian theropods did not fly, what function or functions did these feathers serve?

Both fossil and developmental evidence suggests that feathers evolved through a series of transitional stages, each the result of a developmental evolutionary novelty or, in other words, a new mechanism of growth (Prum 1999, Prum and Brush 2002, 2003). The first feathers, like those of Beipiaosaurus , were unbranched, hollow cylinders that developed from the tubular elongation (the feather germ) of a placode (Figure 9 below). The advantage of a tubular feather germ is that growth of a structure (in this case, a feather) can occur without an increase in the size of the skin itself (in contrast to, for example, scales; Prum 2005). An important step in the evolution of the first feathers was a change in characteristics of the placode. Both scales and feathers begin development from placodes, but feather development, in contrast to scale development, requires generation of suprabasal cell populations (dermal condensations) to form the follicle (see Figure 8 above). The development of placodes where dermal condensations occur, an evolutionary novelty, required changes in gene expression and timing. However, such changes are known to be an important mechanism in the origin of morphological innovations in many other organisms (True and Carroll 2002, Prum 2005).

8268
Fun factoid: Intikam is actually Sir Richard using Google translate to transliterate from English to Turkish, then from Turkish back to English.

I have equally as much proof of this, and am equally as convinced, as any FE'er is of a pancake planet.

8269
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Give me your top ten proofs for a flat earth
« on: January 19, 2016, 10:21:17 AM »
Uh, noooooo....... I was just stating a fact: That General Relativity did not jive with the theories that the scientists postulate about our universe, so Einstein had to invent a "special theory" for them- which does not prove a flat earth- but does pretty much prove that what the "scientists" speculate about our universe and preach as though it were fact, is false; or conversely, General Relativity is false- but obviously something being false, does not prove one of many alternatives true- but does make the likelihood of an alternative being true more apt.

[Other stuff not relevant to my response]

Apologies in advance for taking a brief detour from the topic to address this post.

I feel like, since you have claimed three times that Special Relativity was "invented" to accommodate observations that didn't fit the General Relativity model, this needs to be said: Special Relativity came first. By eleven years. In no way was it "invented" to correct shortcomings of General Relativity. Further, both SR and GR have equations that can be used to make predictions - and rather accurate ones, at that. To use Einstein's work as an indictment against scientists or the scientific method seems to me either lazy or dishonest.

With respect to the list you posted of proofs, it appears those have been sufficiently debunked already so I won't rehash those.

[Edit to give proper credit for commitment to ignoring chronological order of events when making an argument: turns out it was 3 times, not 2.]

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