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Messages - zeroply

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361
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Now here's an idea regarding the conspiracy
« on: December 24, 2007, 09:11:43 PM »

what you see through a telescope is EXACTLY what you would see with your own eyes if you were closer!
if someone took a picture of, say, a building, then took a second picture through a telescopic lens from farther away, they would look exactly the same!


Umm.. no. Does some part of your RE beliefs prohibit you from reading basic science books?

There's something called depth of field and foreshortening. In the O. J. Simpson trial, the prosecution wanted the video of investigators kept out, because the video was taken with a telephoto lens and the foreshortening made it look as if the investigators were walking all over the evidence. This was an optical illusion. If the video had been shot closer in, with a larger depth of field, it would have looked different.

I hope you are not thinking that the LA prosecutor's office is part of the FE movement. Foreshortening is quite real. Give me a photo of a tiger you've taken from 300 yards away and another from 10 yards away, where the tiger's head is exactly the same size, and I can easily tell you which is which. According to your argument, there should be no way to tell the photos apart since.

362
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: The ultimate proof AGAINST the flat earth theory!
« on: December 24, 2007, 06:19:47 PM »
Ok, I'll take a swing at it...

The idea of the "ice wall" is just one of many theories in FE.

My theory (and obviously I do not speak for the rest of the FEers) is that space ends on the other side of the earth. Note that ALL points can be differentiable and yet the overall space can be bounded. It is possible that when you get to the edge you just emerge smoothly out at another point. Kind of like going through a Klein bottle except your insides don't suddenly show up outside your skin.

The "ice wall" may just be a way to explain the edge to people who do not understand non-Euclidean geometry.

Before you go calling me crazy, remember that almost all current cosmological theories posit a bounded universe. The "edge" I'm going with is something RE people obviously use when it suits them.

And if you do understand what I am talking about, before you go off into a tangent about what "flat" means, the only thing I'm claiming is that the surface of the earth is not homeomorphic to a 2-sphere.

363
Flat Earth Debate / Re: my evidence
« on: December 24, 2007, 04:10:22 PM »
On the picture of your camera and lens, there is a small magnification icon on the bottom right.

Almost as if you took the image from a web catalog and pawned it off as your own.

If you are faking pictures of your equipment, why should we believe your pictures? Are they snipped off Amazon too?

i assume you are talking to me.  mainly because i noticed the little magnifying glass too and therefore know what you are talking about.

you think i said that was my lens?  if so, you need to actually read the post, where i provide a link to a popular website with...drum roll...an article on that very lens including that very picture.  better yet, actually read the whole thread - or at least several posts before, and two or three after.  there you'll learn the purpose of that particular post, and what lens i own.

then, should i expect an apology?  i don't really want or expect one, but it might be big of you for your complete failure to learn the facts before you accuse.

Went back and read your post, it was very misleading, for example if I said:

My wife is very attractive and has a great body. I think she looks fantastic.

(and then I post a picture of Angelina Jolie)

Obviously while I have not claimed that the picture is that of my wife, the prior sentences make the assumption implicit.

It's a misleading change in context. Obviously we're talking about YOUR lens. You posted a picture of the biggest lens you could fine. If I posted a picture of the biggest refracting telescope I could fine, I am fairly sure it would be bigger than that lens.

Surely you don't think that ANY lens has superior zoom capacity over a modest refracting telescope? I might be misunderstanding your point.

364
Flat Earth Debate / Re: The Earth is Spherical
« on: December 21, 2007, 07:18:44 PM »
cwolfe, if you're claiming to be a physics dude, you need to put your money where your mouth is. Answer a few questions for us and we'll decide whether you are real or just a poser:

1. Why are Calabi-Yau spaces important in physics?

2. What emotion does "Kaluza-Klein" elicit in you?

Sorry, my young friend, wikipedia and Google will not help you here. If you can't answer these without research, I'll know in a heartbeat.

If you don't know, that's cool. Get back to us in a few years when you have your PhD.

365
Flat Earth Debate / Re: my evidence
« on: December 21, 2007, 05:50:03 PM »
On the picture of your camera and lens, there is a small magnification icon on the bottom right.

Almost as if you took the image from a web catalog and pawned it off as your own.

Would you care to post a picture of the same camera and lens with a handwritten note saying "mxyzptlk" lying on top? That way we can know you really own this.

If you are faking pictures of your equipment, why should we believe your pictures? Are they snipped off Amazon too?

366
Flat Earth Debate / Re: A photograph of the South Pole
« on: December 21, 2007, 05:39:36 PM »
Also, let me point out that the location was determined using GPS, which assumes that the earth is round.

I'm sure that if GPS assumed the Earth was a tetrahedron, the computers would calculate the position differently.

367
Roundy, sorry, did not mean to step on your toes. I'll leave the discussion to you. Keep the math simple - you're dealing with people with a 7th grade math background.

368
> A Polygon with enough faces of the right size would not have any sharp edges.

This is exactly the type of mathematical illiteracy that I discussed.

A polygon has n faces where n is an integer. That is straight from the definition. Give me some n and I will tell you EXACTLY what the angle between each edge is. You can make n as high as you want. I can still give you an angle. No matter how big an n you give me, the polygon will never become a smooth curve.

369
I have been away from this site for a while, but please allow me to address this post...

First of all, polygons are two-dimensional. An octagon is just as flat as a circular region. You need to understand basic mathematical terminology before jumping into the discussion.

I'm assuming you mean (in very lay terms) that you are considering the possibility that the surface of the earth can be "generated" by some function f:RxR->R where f(x,y) would be altitude given x,y latitude and longitude, and that f is more complicated than we believe.

Obviously you have to define your argument better. No one claims that f(x,y) is constant. Clearly the peak of Mount Everest is not at the same altitude as Chicago! In that sense, the Earth is not flat. There are hills and valleys all around us! What we are claiming is that the double integral of f over x and y will be close to zero, within statistical reason.

I am afraid I am unable to dumb this down any further. A better explanation requires basic topology, and many of the new readers here don't even understand multivariate calculus, believe it or not...

370
Flat Earth Q&A / Earth
« on: July 11, 2006, 09:24:42 PM »
Umm.. a triangle is flat, right? So you're saying you believe in the flat earth theory?

I find it interesting that your theory implies a *flat* earth, you could have easily picked an icosahedron or a cube..

371
Flat Earth Q&A / How do people respond?
« on: July 11, 2006, 09:06:40 PM »
Well, sometimes they do say "what a dumbass"..

At which point I whip out my Mensa membership card (no joke.. I will post a carefully masked version if you doubt me) and they decide this particular battle is not worth fighting..

372
Flat Earth Q&A / Shadows?
« on: May 10, 2006, 09:39:41 PM »
Quote from: "EnragedPenguin"
In the current FET the sun is like a spot light, which means it will be hitting the poles at different angles depending on their distance from the area the sun is centered over, making the shadows seem longer or shorter.


Correct, EnragedPenguin, but our argument is that the poles are already at different heights so that this whole experiment is pointless.. If you could somehow construct the poles so that they were at the exact same distance from the (alleged)center of the earth then this experiment would work..

373
Flat Earth Q&A / FAQ Question
« on: May 10, 2006, 09:21:57 PM »
Quote from: "Skatamatic"
I have a telescope, and with an untrained eye its pretty damn easy to see (with a protective UV filter of course) that the sun is several hundred thousand times bigger than the moon.  Does my non electric microscope automatically adjust itself to fit in with your magical government conspiracy?  Look deep inside...you're wrong!


Umm.. yes.. I have a telescope too. With it, it is pretty damn easy to see that my neighbor's house is several hundred thousand times bigger than the moon. I guess my neighbor's house is part of the conspiracy too? Look deep inside.. you don't understand basic physics!

374
Flat Earth Q&A / brilliant
« on: May 10, 2006, 09:02:54 PM »
Goody612: Has anyone ever walked to the edge of the earth. If not why not. If people are so certain that it is flat then why not go and find out. Just curious.

Has anyone tried to go faster than the speed of light in their Camaro? If not why not. If people are so certain that you can't go faster than the speed of light why don't they try going faster in their Camaros? Just curious.

375
Flat Earth Q&A / Shadows?
« on: May 10, 2006, 08:48:47 PM »
No one has responded because this is about as intelligent as stretching a string between the earth and moon to determine the distance..

Even under your theory, the earth is not a perfect sphere. There are variations in the diameter, certainly more than a few feet from place to place. Same in the real FE theory. So constructing a bunch of identical poles is great, but they're already at differing heights due to the bumps in the earth's surface.

Sure, you could overcome that by making the poles tall enough. Put up some 3 mile tall poles and then I'll continue this inane discussion..

376
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: Another physics thought
« on: May 03, 2006, 08:41:01 AM »
Quote from: "aracondal"
I think that the biggest hole in the FE theory is the sun.

Ok, here's the catch:
What exactly is the thing?

According to a spectral analysis [which can be done at home with store bought and / or homemade equipment], the sun is mostly hydrogen, with some helium, and traces of carbon and heavy metals.  Ok, now we have a glowing gaseuous disk.

Why is it glowing?

There's only two ways to make a body of hydrogen glow [not counting lighting it with a flame, as this is completely unstable]


Well, OK, a couple of hundred years ago before they knew about fusion/fission, you would have said there is only ONE way to make something glow.

Why do you assume there are only two ways because we only know of two ways right now? How do you know it's not glowing because of energy released due to a tear in spacetime opening up into a different portion of the universe?

377
Quote from: "jmmtn4aj"
Quote from: "zeroply"
1. Compasses and GPS system rely on the hypothesis that the earth is round to keep you in a straight line. Since the hypothesis is false, the results are inaccurate, and you travel in a big circle, thus reaching your starting point eventually.


So you agree that GPS does exist. Did you also know that GPS sats operate in such a way that would only be possible in an orbit around a spherical world. You can't fucking have a sat in stationary position, unless of course your 'flat earth' has neither gravity nor upwards acceleration.


Again, the reason that we are not answering many of these questions is that most of you unwashed masses from Fark just don't know a whole lot of physics, or at least anything past an American high school level.

First, according to relativity, there are no preferred inertial states, so "stationary" doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Second, look up "Lagrange point" in Google some day. I'm not going to waste time arguing with someone who has no clue what they are.

378
Flat Earth Q&A / Physics Questions
« on: May 02, 2006, 03:49:25 PM »
Quote from: "aracondal"
Pretty much

I wasn;t even going to address diffusion

I notice no one as touched the magnetics....


Actually, it isn't necessary to. Magnetic monopoles have been posited in theories all the way back to Dirac, I believe some guy at Stanford in the 90s was trying to use them to explain cosmological inflation.

Currently the theory seems to be that they are entirely possible but just haven't been experimentally observed yet - I would love to see some sort of rigorous explanation of why they cannot exist.

379
Quote from: "aracondal"
I'd like to make a quick response to the speed of light issue that people keep brining up.

If you actually go read the papers being published by the astronomers and theoretical physicists being referenced in these articles, what you will discover is that the speed of light is indeed a constant -- relative to our point in time

The variance there are referring to is in the first moments of the universe's existence.  A period of time potentially as small as nano-seconds.  As of when and where we are, including the entire lifespan of this planet no matter how long you believe that is, lightspeed is indeed a constant in a vacuum


But again, you are wrong about your OWN theory.

This is the very FIRST paragraph of the article I posted earlier:

"The speed of light, one of the most sacrosanct of the universal physical constants, may have been lower as recently as two billion years ago - and not in some far corner of the universe, but right here on Earth. "

So it's NOT during the very first moments of the (alleged) Big Bang as you have stated, and if it is a variable, why can't it vary now? If all the scientists have been wrong since Einstein that the speed was a constant for all time, why can't they be wrong now?

380
Quote from: "Epoch"

What you are describing is a stereographic projection...you're actually arguing against flat earth - you're saying the earth is both round and flat at the same time...which is fine...but you still lost the point of your argument...which I thought was that the earth was flat.  You can't argue a realistic-projection for only one side...it has to be both...hence the reason for the functional mapping in the first place...ass.

There's also that whole "loss of dimensional equivalence" thing you failed to touch upon that makes it possible for the UNIVERSE to be a Reimann sphere...not the fucking earth.  It's like you read some article somewhere and decided it somehow applied here.


No, what I am describing is an isometry between topologically equivalent manifolds. Yes, I know what a stereographic projection is, you apparently do not know diddly-squat about math. What do you mean by "one side"? How many sides do you think the complex plane has?

What the crapola is "loss of dimensional equivalence"? Are you getting your math from Star Trek or something? A Riemann sphere is a 2-manifold, it's not going to be isometric to a 3 or higher manifold. Do you even have the faintest clue what a Riemann sphere is?

The dumbasses who don't know basic physics and math but still want to discuss it amaze me endlessly..

381
Quote from: "pHluid"
This, however, is not the case, according to any pilot, researcher, or scientist who has ever been in the Antarctic. They can all attest to traveling south, and instead of hitting some gigantic ice wall or whatever, instead the compass freaks out for a bit, then claims they're traveling north again. Which is kind of suggestive that it is, in fact, a sphere.

But they're probably part of the "vast conspiracy."

Regardless, the FAQ should be updated to argue THIS point, not the East<->West one - It's irrelevant and an excercise in deception.


Well, as I pointed out before, their compasses are designed around the assumption that the Earth is round. They travel in a large circle which comes close to the southern edge, and as soon as they are halfway through the circle or course their compasses will start pointing north.

Let's put this in math terms. Start on a Riemann sphere at the origin, and walk an absolutely straight line towards the infinity pole.. With the SLIGHTEST deviation in your initial direction, you will just walk in a big circle and wind up back at the origin, even though your path is absolutely straight. The Riemann sphere is isometric to the complex plane, so the line you just walked on the sphere corresponds to a large curve in the plane.

Too many posts in this thread, so I am only going to reply to those that show a good grasp of physics and math under their own theory.

382
Quote from: "NightFalcon"
Quote from: "zeroply"
There is nothing "under" the Earth. Space-time ends there - much as in modern cosmology it begins at the Big Bang. The idea that space is everywhere-differentiable is a myth propagated by various governments.


That is simply impossible and would defy the laws of the universe.  The universe is a 3D thing, and some would say 4D because now you have another direction to go, DOWN.  There simply can't be the end of space-time at the bottom of Earth, because space is not much different from Earth, if this was true, space-time would end at the bottom of my cup of coffee.


I find it highly amusing that most of the people trying to prove FE wrong have absolutely no understanding of their OWN theory. Where to even start with this?

1. The universe is not a "3D thing". Both bosonic string theory and M-theory postulate 10, 11, or even 26 dimensions, depending on who you listen to. I don't know a single cosmologist who claims that space is three dimensional. The SIMPLEST model out there is probably a 4 dimensional traditional spacetime crossed with a 6 dimensional compact Calabi-Yau manifold. I am guessing you do not know what a Calabi-Yau manifold is, it is time for you to get out of the deep end of this pool.

2. It is entirely possible for smooth space to have an edge. Think non-Euclidean.

3. Even YOUR theory posits that space has a finite "radius" if you will. Otherwise you're throwing the Big Bang theory out the window, which I'm totally willing to do, but are you?

383
Quote from: "troubadour"
Quote from: "zeroply"


Well, by your reasoning, if you connected the earth and moon with a rigid steel pole, the center of gravity of the entire system would be somewhere along the pole and you would fall up off the surface towards that point!




YOU said that crap about gravity, not me.

And yes, the speed of light is not a constant if it's not in a vaccum, sorry. It is refracted and slowed down a tad in water and air and the like, but not in the ways you are suggesting, that the poles have something to do with it. Only when it's travelling through a transparent medium is there an effect on it, this has been known since 1890. And the link you posted (from usa today lols, quite the scientific authority) talks about light travelling through gas clouds in space and slowing down light years away, not 3000 miles away. So now you are agreeing with modern astronomy and cosmology? Wow you FEers really do like to pick and choose what you believe to fit whatever you want to say don't you. Too bad you don't realize that it disproves some of your other beliefs.


Look, you don't even understand your OWN theory, should you really be criticizing other people's?

The speed of light IN A VACUUM is not a constant according to current physics:

From New Scientist:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6092.html

"A varying speed of light contradicts Einstein's theory of relativity, and would undermine much of traditional physics. But some physicists believe it would elegantly explain puzzling cosmological phenomena such as the nearly uniform temperature of the universe."

So I guess New Scientist, USA Today and about 40 other newspapers are in a conspiracy to claim speed of light is a constant, but any other conspiracy is impossible? Hmm?

384
Quote from: "enfini"
zeroply wrote:

4. If you stand on a flat stage the gravity doesn't kill you, in fact it's about the same. Gravity is very much like magnetism, and magnets don't have to be round to work, do they?


That 4th point doesn't make much sense... So what if a magent doesn't need to be round to work? Magnetism is based on electron flow and charge of an object, gravity is an attractive force based on mass. Because of this difference, gravity can ONLY work spherically, as there is no repulsive form of the gravitational force.


I disagree with your statement that gravity can only work spherically - if we have a large cubicle block of lead floating in the sky it won't have a gravitational field? I don't think the body has to be spherical for it to produce gravity - hopefully someone who knows more physics can verify this?

It is precisely this sort of misinformation that the RE movement employs constantly.

385
Quote from: "troubadour"
Quote from: "zeroply"
1. Compasses and GPS system rely on the hypothesis that the earth is round to keep you in a straight line. Since the hypothesis is false, the results are inaccurate, and you travel in a big circle, thus reaching your starting point eventually.


I'd like to see your math demonstrating this. It seems to me if you tryed to use spherical coodinate equations on a flat disc at some point it would drive you into the ground, instead of working perfectly with a round earth model.


Well, for example, a Riemann sphere is a compactification of the complex plane (plus an infinity). Any geometry you can do on the complex plane you can do on a Riemann sphere, and the angles even match up. A 2-D being on the complex plane would be unable to use math to show that he is not on the surface of a Riemann sphere, since the two are topologically identical manifolds.

I am guessing they did not cover Riemann spheres or compactifications in your school. This is proof of the conspiracy. I was home schooled and was taught the "forbidden" subjects of differential topology and non-Euclidean geometry.

Quote from: "troubadour"

Quote from: "zeroply"

2. There is nothing "under" the Earth. Space-time ends there - much as in modern cosmology it begins at the Big Bang. The idea that space is everywhere-differentiable is a myth propagated by various governments.


Why are the propagating the myth? for what reasons? what evidence do we have of a cover-up?


Because the blow to science would be huge. If the government came out and said they were wrong all these years, no one would believe in the big bang theory, or evolution, or any of the other fringe theories. If one goes down, they all go down. There are too many politicians involved in the coverup at this point..

Quote from: "troubadour"

Quote from: "zeroply"

3. Speed of light varies with distance from the Pole (there is only one obviously, so no need to say North), producing this effect.


The speed of light is the same no matter what. If it was slower or faster in relation to the poles, we would of discovered this by now. Nothing in known physics can speed up or slow down light, only change it's direction.


Apparently USA Today (which you will agree is not a disreputable magazine), does not agree with you:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/astro/2001-08-15-speed-of-light.htm

Yes, according to mainstream physicists, speed of light is NOT a constant, thus shooting down this part of the argument.

Quote from: "troubadour"

Quote from: "zeroply"

4. If you stand on a flat stage the gravity doesn't kill you, in fact it's about the same. Gravity is very much like magnetism, and magnets don't have to be round to work, do they?


Gravity is like magnetism only in that it is a force. It is ALWAYS attractive. The electro-magnetic field can be either attractive or respulsive. Gravity doesn't kill you when you stand on a flat stage because the earth is a large sphere, that looks kinda flat to the ordinary eye from the surface, that pulls you at about 1g towards it's center. If it were somekind of disc, this model would not work because gravity pulls towards a center point in a sphere, not a flat 2 dimensional plane.


Well, by your reasoning, if you connected the earth and moon with a rigid steel pole, the center of gravity of the entire system would be somewhere along the pole and you would fall up off the surface towards that point!

You are attracted to whatever is closest to you, in this case the ground right underneath your feet. Yes, the ground in Australia is also attracting you, but by a negligible factor.

386
1. Compasses and GPS system rely on the hypothesis that the earth is round to keep you in a straight line. Since the hypothesis is false, the results are inaccurate, and you travel in a big circle, thus reaching your starting point eventually.

2. There is nothing "under" the Earth. Space-time ends there - much as in modern cosmology it begins at the Big Bang. The idea that space is everywhere-differentiable is a myth propagated by various governments.

3. Speed of light varies with distance from the Pole (there is only one obviously, so no need to say North), producing this effect.

4. If you stand on a flat stage the gravity doesn't kill you, in fact it's about the same. Gravity is very much like magnetism, and magnets don't have to be round to work, do they?

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