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Messages - Itchy_Arris

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391
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Infinite earth
« on: April 28, 2015, 11:06:43 AM »
So the Universe is basically a cylinder shape in your model, since its a flat earth almost infinitely large on the base of the universe?

So you are also trying to use aetheric whirlpools as a reason for star rotations too.  How does that actually work for the southern hemisphere, since the same stars are visible to travel in the same pathway from opposite ends of this disc portion of the infinite flat Earth?  I could possibly see the Northern hemisphere if that were the center, or the Southern if that were, but not both at the same time.  It simply would not work.

You still cannot use gravity for the reason things fall down in this cylinder universe.  The amount of surface for what we as humans live on is substantial enough to form a sphere alone, so the low density argument doesn't work.  Gravity is the attraction of matter to matter.  So for an infinite plane, and any thickness at all, enough to stand on, would pull itself into spheres. If you are lucky to make multiple spheres and not one infinitely large one.   

Another thing is the amount of dark matter thought to be a part of the universe.  96% is not correct.  At best it is thought to be maybe somewhere less than 80%, but that is a moot point.  There are theories that are trying to do away with the dark matter and dark energy placeholders.  http://arxiv.org/pdf/1212.1110v2.pdf

You cannot just say things fall down.  Like i said, its just more limited reasoning.  I'll give you another example of limited reasoning when trying to understand gravity; the people in the Southern hemisphere would feel like they were upside down.  Once again limited reasoning, one where you cannot get the up and down mentality out of your brain, along with the lack of understanding to scale.  The flat Earth mentality boils down to "it looks flat".  Most people cannot understand that the size of the Earth in relation to the size of a human would make the tiny piece you inhabit and see of this massive sphere look flat.  Once people can get past that little failure of reasoning, they would be able to see that the rest of the stuff, like the massive conspiracy, make believe aether, intelligent bendy light (bends just right to hide the flat Earth), etc.  are simply silly concepts with no proof.  The infinite plane is just another one of those things in that list of silly failed concepts.

I don't know what shape the universe is, or if it infinite or finite. I never said it was a cylinder.

I don't even know what aesthetic whirlpools are! I don't know what intelligent bendy light is!


 Why are you making things up and attributing them to me?

392
Tell me, why should I believe your bible over the Holy Quran? I mean, the Quran is the actual word of god, unaltered. The bible was written by normal men years after the events.

393
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Infinite earth
« on: April 28, 2015, 09:28:33 AM »
A black hole singularity has infinite density and infinite gravity. They don't collapse the universe though do they? Don't pretend to understand gravity - nobody does.

Not quite true.

There's a difference between knowing how gravity behaves and the somewhat deeper questions,  we know all there is to know about gravity to predict the motions of the planets the evolution and formation of stars and supernova.   We know how gravity works on large scales,  and the medium scale of the earth,  we know how to calculate everything that is observable about gravity  from dropping a cannon ball of the tower of Pisa, to Newton and universal laws of gravitation, we know Einstein's  general theory of relativity,  which at one level is all about gravity and the way mass distorts space and time.  From one point of view gravity can be described as the distortion of space by the presence of mass.   We know how particles get mass from the Higgs field.   Gravitational calculations are what predicts the presence of dark matter, even though we don't know what it is, we know it is there because of what we know about gravity. 

Don't pretend gravity is something mysterious and unknown.

Well okay, if you assume that 96% of the universe is undetectable dark matter, then yes we understand it. I find that assumption a bit hard to swallow.

Yes the flat earth plain has enormous mass, but it is spread out over the whole diameter of the universe, so low density. No need for enormous gravity. Sorry, try again.

394
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Infinite earth
« on: April 28, 2015, 09:09:13 AM »
Still, if the Earth is the bottom of the universe, gravity would not work.  In gravity, the larger the mass, the larger the force of attraction.  In your model, gravity will not work, it must be something else, and it shows the same lack of spacial reasoning I see with many here.  If the Earth were the bottom of the universe and it is infinite or near infinite, gravity would say that it would have infinite force, meaning infinite acceleration.  Light would not even leave the surface of the Earth.  And being spread out, basically infinitely with this infinite force, it would collapse the universe onto itself and also pull into itself to a singular point.   
The things fall argument is very much like the if the Earth was round we would slide off of it.  This is a complete lack of understanding for how gravity works.  Yes we do not know the exact cause on the quantum level for gravity, but we do know that it is there, what controls the strength of its force, can measure it, etc.  We know that if a mass is sufficient enough (depending on the substance's pliability) it will form into a sphere.  There is no force pulling "down" in the universe, there is a force pulling matter to matter.
So for an infinite plane, a disc, a cone, whatever shape you want to think the Earth is other than a sphere, you must not accept gravity.  Which is in fact some of the discussions going on here, as most FErs understand this fact, that gravity will not work for their model, hence universal acceleration, denpressure, and whatever the newest aether property is.

A black hole singularity has infinite density and infinite gravity. They don't collapse the universe though do they? Don't pretend to understand gravity - nobody does.

395
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Infinite earth
« on: April 28, 2015, 06:54:54 AM »
I don't see what's ambiguous, Ive been very clear, but I'll spell it out for you again.

The earth is the bottom of the universe. How it formed is more of a philosophical/religious question, it may have just been forever. Everything falls to the bottom eventually - we see things falling to the ground all the time, meteorites -but the universe is very big and has a lot of energy, enabling object to stay up for a long time. Remember the entire history of humans is just a blink of an eye in universal time.

It's common sense. You need to realise you have been brainwashed to believe in a ridiculous concept of a bottomless universe. Brainwashing is powerful, but please try to see how nonsensical that is.

Go on, break your programming!

396
Flat Earth Debate / Re: ask me about dual earth theory
« on: April 28, 2015, 03:06:21 AM »
JRowe, apologise for asking you to repeat yourself, but there's just so much information to wade through! Could you please explain again where the sun is in your model?

397
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Infinite earth
« on: April 28, 2015, 03:00:38 AM »
There are two types of gravity here: normal gravity (N) and flat gravity (F). The orbit of moons and planets depends on N, which also explains Earth's gravity perfectly well. F, however, cannot explain this. You say it's basic stuff taught in school, but "the earth is round" is even more basic stuff taught in school. In F, the earth should also be pulled downwards, ergo, jumping should leave us stranded slightly above the ground. N, however, shows that everything is relative to everything else, and thus the universe can be self-contained and appear exactly as it does.

Are you suggesting that only round objects have gravity? Do some research. All mass has gravity.

I already stated that I dont know why round earth is taught. But I'm trying to find out.

398
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Infinite earth
« on: April 28, 2015, 02:57:41 AM »
Gravity.

Perhaps you read recently about the Higgs Boson being discovered at the LHC. The Higgs is the field and particle that gives particles the property of mass. Objects that have mass, things like people, planets, etc. have a mutual attraction. Agreed we physicists do not yet have an ultimate reason, may never have. But we have a few models, Newtons gravity, and GR for very massive objects.

Infinite or extremely large. What empirical evidence do you have?

We know the universe is very big. Therefore the bottom of the universe must be very big.

Why are people having trouble with something do simple?

399
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Infinite earth
« on: April 28, 2015, 02:53:41 AM »
Again you are asking me why gravity exists. Nobody knows, even the best physicists in the world don't know. But we do know it does exist.
We know gravity, as defined by a force that draws objects towards objects with mass, exists. You are not using that definition, you cannot claim all the connotations of the word when you are not using it properly.
I am asking for an explanation of the force you are proposing. Gravity as commonly defined has that explanation: attraction towards mass.
If you don't want to address this, fine, FEers rarely have evidence or detail. The more important matter for you is to address the contradiction.

Quote
Are you saying that objects in the sky don't move with their own energy? Do you believe the universe is static?
I am asking how those movements can be reconciled with your view that all things are pulled in one direction. You can't have it both ways.
How could those objects possibly move with their own energy in ignorance of the universal force you require?

Your theory needs work: there's nothing bad about that, just don't ignore input.

Are you saying that the earth doesn't have mass? I don't see why you think the flat plane can't have gravity.

The stars are a long way from the earth. Very very high up. You should learn about the inverse square law if gravity.

400
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Infinite earth
« on: April 27, 2015, 02:53:35 PM »
Why does gravity exist? How can I know that? It's like asking why the universe exists.
Not why does it exist: why does it work? Why the force in one specific direction? It seems much too convenient, more to reject RET than to stand on its own.

Quote
The moon and stars are in the sky, moving with their own energy. Maybe they will all fall to the ground eventually, I don't know.
How are they moving on their own energy? How does that allow them to resist your gravity which should be a universal force, for you?
Orbits don't work without a round Earth, so the best I can see is that you're relying on some principle akin to airplanes: constant movement allowing them to stay aloft. However, that only worked if air extends as high as the moon/sun, which seems to be clearly untrue, both because the air would be pulled down, and because we can observe air growing thinner as we go higher. So, how exactly does 'moving with their own energy' allow the moon and stars to ignore gravity?

You can generally gauge how reliable a theory is with how many exceptions it needs to make: how much special pleading is involved. It seems your view of gravity has many such exceptions.

Quote
The moons of distant planets orbit due to gravity. This is elementary school stuff, you really should already know this.
Except the gravity we learn about is completely different to the gravity you use, and the two cannot be reconciled. How does a force pulling everything in one direction cause rotational motion?

Again you are asking me why gravity exists. Nobody knows, even the best physicists in the world don't know. But we do know it does exist.

Are you saying that objects in the sky don't move with their own energy? Do you believe the universe is static?

401
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Infinite earth
« on: April 27, 2015, 02:48:31 PM »
Why do you need this universal acceleration? Things fall, that is how the universe works - gravity means things fall downwards. Simple.

What is causing the force of gravity? Simply telling us that "gravity means things fall downwards" sounds like a cop-out. There is an explanation for everything. Why can we see the moons of distant planets orbit their parent? Why isn't our moon just sitting on the ground with us?

The worlds best physisists don't know what causes gravity. Why do you expect me to know?

The moons of distant planets orbit due to gravity. This is elementary school stuff, you really should already know this.

The moon has enough energy to counteract the force of gravity, it is in balance. Again, you really should know this.

402
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Infinite earth
« on: April 27, 2015, 02:38:55 PM »
Why do you need this universal acceleration? Things fall, that is how the universe works - gravity means things fall downwards. Simple.
The important question is "why?"
Gravity is explained, mostly: at the very least, we can explain its cause. Even UA is explained. But if gravity makes things 'fall downward', why? Is there just an inherent bias towards one direction in the universe?
If so, how are there stars? Planets? The Sun? The moon? They should be getting larger, crashing into us.

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Why does gravity exist? How can I know that? It's like asking why the universe exists.

The moon and stars are in the sky, moving with their own energy. Maybe they will all fall to the ground eventually, I don't know.

Yes I believe in air!
I believe it is possible to go to space, or the moon.
Then why do photos from space depict a sphere? Are they fake? Why would they be faked, and how could so many keep the secret, as you now have witnesses to the deception.

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I am pretty sure mountains exist.
WHat about air, does air exist?

403
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Go ahead and try to explain this one
« on: April 27, 2015, 02:03:34 PM »
So? I live well north of the equator. Water can go both ways down the plug hole here. It goes one way in the kitchen, and the other way in the bathroom.

404
Flat Earth Debate / Infinite Earth?
« on: April 27, 2015, 01:41:38 PM »
Ive been reading about the different flat earth concepts. The idea of a disc being accelerated upwards with an ice wall is interesting, but I find it hard to believe. Antarctica has been well mapped, and I see no reason to doubt that is an island continent.
I read about dual earth theory. The person (jroweskeptic) who mainly seems to support this has put a lot of work into it, but it seems to me as a way of answering questions that the standard flat earth has difficulty with, rather than real belief.

Basically I think you are over-complicating things.

I have always believed the the earth is not a globe (that is just ridiculous) but is just the ground at the bottom of the universe. It may be an infinite plain, or as big as the universe, but it's definitely very big. It's not for us to know how big it is, that is why we are only permitted to know a small part of it. Maybe we be allowed to travel further in the future, just as we have discovered new lands up to now, I dont know. Why do you need this universal acceleration? Things fall, that is how the universe works - gravity means things fall downwards. Simple.

Isn't this a simpler, more elagent model? Look out the window - the ground is at the bottom, the sky is at the top, it really is that simple.

I believe it is possible to go to space, or the moon. When astronauts return to earth they splash down in the ocean - well of course they do, the ocean is at the bottom!


The only things I am unsure about is why the totally illogical round earth theory has been taught for all this time, and why almost everyone believes it. I guess brainwashing is a powerful thing.

I am pretty sure mountains exist.



405
The Lounge / Re: New believer
« on: April 27, 2015, 01:18:44 PM »
If this were the case, everything would be a formless pile of dust.

I don't know why you think that, but thanks, interesting concept.

406
The Lounge / Re: New believer
« on: April 27, 2015, 01:15:54 PM »
That's how the universe was made.

How do you know this? And, why?

Just because that is what we observe. I don't know why, you would need to ask the creator that, not me.

Anyway I just wanted to introduce myself I didn't mean to start a debate.

407
The Lounge / Re: New believer
« on: April 27, 2015, 12:48:37 PM »
That's how the universe was made. We could ask "why?" of lots of things. We have no way of knowing.

408
The Lounge / Re: New believer
« on: April 27, 2015, 12:43:04 PM »
So why do we fall? Magic? Also, can we get a move to debate here.

Like I said, everything falls to the bottom. It's simple.

409
The Lounge / Re: New believer
« on: April 27, 2015, 10:59:34 AM »
Thanks bosnianvet, interesting post. I don't believe in the ice wall though. I am happy that Antarctica is an island. I believe the earth is probably an infinite plain, although it is not for us to know for sure, that is why we can only travel so far.

The universe has to have a bottom, and it makes perfect sense that the ground is the bottom. That explains why everything falls to earth. Certainly makes more sense than everyone sticking to a ball, what a joke!

410
The Lounge / New believer
« on: April 27, 2015, 09:58:16 AM »
Hello fellow believers and heretics. I am glad to have found you.
I have always known the earth is flat. It's obvious. I think the earth is just the bottom of the universe - that's why everything falls. Look at an aeroplane in the sky, does it fly away over the horizon? No it just flies away.

I don't know the true reasons why we are all taught round earth nonsense, but I look forward to reading your theories.

Mo.

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