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Messages - Lord Wilmore

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361
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: what would it look like?
« on: January 12, 2013, 11:08:28 PM »
Would it not be more prudent to give more consideration to sizes and shapes of the earth where the sun can set just like it appears to rather than having to invent some sort of implausible mechanism where sun's movements are an illusion just to resolve a contradiction that doesn't need to exist in the first place?


Why is that you view the Sun not being what it appears to be as an implausible "contradiction", but view the Earth not being what it appears to be as worthy of 'prudent consideration'?


I have explained my position. Why do you assume that the Earth is the source of this problem, and not the Sun?

362
The Lounge / Re: American's want a Death Star
« on: January 12, 2013, 10:45:54 PM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20997144

^ The USA aren't going to get their death star after all. Its been rejected by the White House.

Will you guys still be building a few x-wings?


Oh yeah, but they'll mothball half the fleet to save money, or put them on "extended readiness", which is HMAF code for storage. That way they can sail against Argentina a few years from now.


On a serious note, it is amazing how when it comes to defence, British conservatives are a lot more faithful to anti-state conservative values than American conservatives are. It's an odd one.

363
The Lounge / Re: Stahp poking me!
« on: January 12, 2013, 10:36:20 PM »
Michael N. Wilmore

364
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Please ban Nimp
« on: January 12, 2013, 10:33:07 PM »
He hasn't done anything wrong. Creating provocative threads and being generally unlikable aren't serious offenses.


This is my view at the moment. We aren't content-police until the rules are obviously or problematically broken.

365
The Lounge / Re: A Friendly Chat
« on: January 12, 2013, 09:54:52 PM »
my days of messing about with nefarious drugs are over.


This point is fair enough, but I genuinely believe that lifestyle trumps substance. It's just as easy to become dependent on cheap cider as it is to become dependent on some "nefarious drugs". I think strong willpower is ace, but some degree of legally-enforced willpower is a lot better, though the form it takes is up for debate.

366
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: The Flat Earth Society needs an anthem
« on: January 12, 2013, 07:45:27 PM »
I only occasionally do stuff on Twitter, respond to emails, and arrange/do interviews and the podcast. Yet I find I spend almost as much time on that as I do on the forum. And it has to fit in somewhere alongside work I get paid for, and frankly, non-monetary stuff that is more important (family, relationships etc). I think it's important that people recognise that this stuff gets done, and acknowledge that it is being done all the time. Daniel doesn't need to be here explaining the UA to some noob in order to be considered 'active'. He's actively paying for the site. He's actively promoting and running the society. He's actively retrieving a treasure-trove of previously inaccessible FE material and making it available online.


I know you guys don't feel it as immediately or interact with it as personally, but all this stuff is a lot more important for the Flat Earth Society than anything I or any other mod does here. We need mods, and we need members. But the society has to be more than an efficiently administrated forum, and right now that 'more' is Daniel and everything he does.


When Daniel was inactive, it was a problem, as he has acknowledged on several occasions. But he wasn't really any less active on the forum at that time. He's always been hands-off when it comes to the forum, and I have always seen that as a good thing. This has never been "Daniel's Flat Earth Society", and we have never seen him loom as a personality in an unhealthy way. It's a really good thing, and I wish people would stop equating posting frugally with inactivity.

367
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: what would it look like?
« on: January 11, 2013, 08:28:51 PM »
Sorry Wilmore, but I have to call BS here.  I seem to recall a discussion with you some time ago where were talking about sunsets.  Correct me if I wrong, but during that discussion, you admitted that your senses were giving you conflicting information when the earth appears to be flat wherever you go (which does not conflict with RET) yet you also see the sun appearing to set into the horizon (which does conflict with FET).  You chose to resolve this conflict by deciding that some unknown process causes an illusion of the sun to appearing to set into the horizon when it is really some 3000 miles above the earth.  Yet you refused to consider (what some might consider) the more plausible explanation that the earth is round and the sun really is setting into the horizon.  Seriously, if you are to trust your senses, then even the earth being a relatively small flat disc that the sun can set below is far more plausible than the sun being 3000 miles high at sunset.


And so we return to a point Ski has already made: why are the Sun's movements indicative of the shape of the Earth? A sunset doesn't make the Earth look any less flat. So I had no reason to believe that the Earth was round. I did not refuse to consider that the Sun was moving 'below' the Earth - indeed I explicitly stated that I considered the possibility that the Sun was setting by moving below the Earth relative to my position. However, this occurred in the same way no matter where and where I made these observations (seasonal shifts aside). Lacking any evidence that the Earth's shape was an illusion, but having readily apparent evidence that it was flat, I concluded that the illusion must lie in the Sun's movements. Moreover, this seemed especially likely simply because the setting of the Sun is accompanied by numerous other optical phenomena, whereas the Earth's surface is not.


The Zetetic Method is not just about trusting your senses, but about resolving sensorial conflict in a logical, empirically grounded manner. Any old hypothetical won't do.

368
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: Conclusive round earth proof
« on: January 11, 2013, 08:17:55 PM »
How is it a cop-out if he hadn't posted in the thread yet? What was he copping-out of? ???

369
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: Conclusive round earth proof
« on: January 11, 2013, 08:08:08 PM »
Right back at you, markjo. Highlighting cop-outs isn't my thing.
Then why did you highlight Tausami's cop-out?


That's not a cop-out. It's just his argument, which is why your counter-point doesn't work. How can it be a cop-out when your response came afterwards? He didn't psychically cop-out of an argument you had yet to make. ::)

370
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: You actually believe the earth is flat?
« on: January 11, 2013, 08:05:31 PM »
No-one here is going to present scientific evidence, because we don't believe in the scientific method. Our dispute with modern globularist science begins with its methodology, not just its conclusions.

371
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: what would it look like?
« on: January 11, 2013, 07:49:49 PM »
Who said that they are all equally possible?  According to RET, roughly spherical is the most likely shape.  The other shapes that Ski mentioned are merely a straw man attempt to ridicule RET.


And according to FET, roughly flat is the most likely shape. We're not talking about what the different camps deem more or less likely. We're talking about the distinction between things being equally possible, and and being equally likely. The fact that the view out of one's window (the example you used) does not contradict RET means that it is equally possible, but not equally likely. Because one has to posit the unobserved to make RET work in that instance.


I'm saying that if you want to be as intellectually honest as you claim to be, then you must go where the evidence leads you, even if it contradicts your personal world view.  If evidence suggests that the world is snowman shaped, then you can't let your personal bias allow you to dismiss that evidence just because you don't like it.  You need to find some stronger evidence that contradicts the snowman shaped evidence.  However, this is moot seeing as I am not asking you to consider that the earth might be snowman shaped.  I'm just trying to make a point.


You were attempting to have Ski concede that just because the Earth looks flat, he should not dismiss RET, as it could still be round. The trouble with this is that it means giving the possible, however implausible, equal weighting with the apparent. I don't dismiss the possibility of a round Earth, any more than I dismiss any other possibility about anything. But I don't give equal weight to things just because they are possible. Rather, I seek plausibility and likelihood.

372
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: one face?
« on: January 11, 2013, 07:37:16 PM »
why do we only ever see one face of the moon on a flat earth?

we can see a different face.


 ???


Anyway, the effect known as 'libration' is caused by cyclical patterns on the Moon, considered by some to be bioluminescent or meteorological in nature.

373
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: Three simple proofs that the earth is a SPHERE
« on: January 11, 2013, 07:25:03 PM »
No answers?


Now look, I've already made this clear:


Please be patient; our members are not on-call.


As Tausami says, no-one here is getting paid for this. We're not obligated to answer you immediately just because you happen to be online. Fifteen minutes is not a long time. You took over 14 hours to reply to the thread, so do unto others etc.

374
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: I wonder
« on: January 11, 2013, 07:11:15 PM »
what explanation is there on a flat earth for this?


That sailors needed an unobstructed view of the seas around them, and the only way to provide that was to place them above the sails, rigging, etc?

375
Let's keep this on-topic, okay?

376
Flat Earth General / Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« on: January 11, 2013, 07:04:59 PM »
Search John's posts, for example. Or just ask iwanttobelieve et al.

377
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Gun Control
« on: January 11, 2013, 05:51:38 PM »
Didn't see this until recently:


http://www.naturalnews.com/038392_Sandy_Hook_Dark_Knight_Rises_Batman_movie.html


It might try and redirect you, so hit just hit stop once the text loads.

378
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Financial crisis explained
« on: January 11, 2013, 11:51:06 AM »
The article in the OP is right to the extent that some things/substances/etc. have more stable value than other things. But as Saddam said, that value is no more 'intrinsic' than anything else. Offer a starving man a lump of platinum or week's worth of food, and see which has more 'intrinsic' value to him. The same is obviously not going to be true of a well-paid worker in the west.


The scarcity of gold doesn't make its value any more 'real' than that of the dollar or the pound. It makes it more stable, or alternatively, less flexible, depending on your point of view. It is highly valued because it is stable, which is to say it is perceived to be stable. Tulips were a hot bet for a while too.


I'm not suggesting anyone should run out and bet against gold, but it's ridiculous to imbue it with 'intrinisic' value. We are the creators of value. Value originates within beings that have wants and desires. Just like anything else, gold is worth no more than how much other people want, which in turn etc. The gold standard originated from a very particular political situation. The contemporary idea that a gold standard or whatever is the solution to our problems is based on half-baked philosophy via Ayn Rand. Yes, gold has a value that is not defined by government, but that doesn't make it 'objective'. If Rearden metal was half as good as it sounded, Galt would have looked pretty thick with his gold.


Also, in terms of social history the article is laughable rubbish. How many people in Britain had the kind of comfort of living that we do when the U.K. was on the gold standard? It's hard to take comfort from the strength of a currency you have next to nothing of.
I don't know if you are trying to be philosophical or argumentative but the fact is this cerebral argument is nothing more than a thought experiment. Gold is pretty much the only thing with real value. You can't trade food. It spoils. You need something everyone else recognises. And that something is gold. I'm going to ignore your objections because this thread is about economics. Not philosophy.


People who support returning to the gold standard make these arguments. A lot of the most vocal proponents of a return to the gold standard in the US are self-professed Randians. The republican nominee for the Vice Presidency, Paul Ryan, is a huge fan of Ayn Rand, and is on record as supporting a 'commodity standard', which is just a slightly more nuanced version of the gold standard. In short, support for the gold standard is grounded in this discussion. If you don't know about it, perhaps you should do some reading, because the major supporters of a return to the gold standard hold that view for ideological rather than economic reasons.


And there is nothing 'cerebral' about the lack of flexibility inherent to being on the gold standard, or the fact that the value of the pound has nothing to do with prosperity in real terms. The article in the OP doesn't make any effort to address this, simply suggesting it might be because "mankind has advanced". This is so dumb it beggars belief. What matters is not the purchasing power of the pound, but the purchasing power of people.


Nations didn't come off the gold standard for laughs. It was hugely controversial at the time, and a major embarrassment for Britain when she was forced off the gold standard. Nobody wanted to do it, because there was a great deal of national prestige linked to being on the gold standard. However, many now believe that coming off the gold standard was good for her economy at the time.


A gold standard is not a terrible or crazy idea. But it's not necessarily a good idea, nor is it a magic solution to economic problems.

379
The Lounge / Re: Cats are better than dogs.
« on: January 10, 2013, 10:17:44 PM »
Persons often feel bound to behave to one another in a reciprocal manner. If you own a dog, can you really view it as a person?


I like that domestic cats can run away. Dogs often can't.

380
Flat Earth Believers / Re: Results of my study
« on: January 10, 2013, 10:10:29 PM »
Dath the night hath growut longer. Just but thrust the seas of
Discourse upon the southern ship.

Shall not the valve of definition crank the shale of
A mans grasp?


This is beautiful. I can imagine myself and Brother James, exchanging wisdom upon such a voyage. And yourself, Brother Bullhorn, at the figurative helm.

381
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: Three simple proofs that the earth is a SPHERE
« on: January 10, 2013, 09:43:55 PM »
I am moving your thread to the correct board. Please be patient; our members are not on-call.

382
The Lounge / Re: Far-Too-Common Spelling/Grammar Errors
« on: January 10, 2013, 09:40:47 PM »
I'm pretty sure the subject line should say "grammatical errors" as per the OP, but hey.


I don't like people dropping prepositions, e.g. "You're allowed [to] go out and get drunk once in a while!"


Also, mixing up fewer/less or number/amount. E.g.:


"I wish less people would vote Democrat" - Should be "fewer people".


"Wow, the amount of rats I have seen this year is really crazy. "Should be "number of rats".


Less/Amount = substances, e.g. gold, cocaine, etc.


Fewer/Number = divisible units, e.g. people, animals, spliffs etc.

383
The Lounge / Re: Wild West Lynching (Werewolf) - Signups
« on: January 10, 2013, 09:32:24 PM »
I am Wilmore Marston, and I talk like you imagine me talkin'.

384
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Financial crisis explained
« on: January 10, 2013, 09:30:48 PM »
The article in the OP is right to the extent that some things/substances/etc. have more stable value than other things. But as Saddam said, that value is no more 'intrinsic' than anything else. Offer a starving man a lump of platinum or week's worth of food, and see which has more 'intrinsic' value to him. The same is obviously not going to be true of a well-paid worker in the west.


The scarcity of gold doesn't make its value any more 'real' than that of the dollar or the pound. It makes it more stable, or alternatively, less flexible, depending on your point of view. It is highly valued because it is stable, which is to say it is perceived to be stable. Tulips were a hot bet for a while too.


I'm not suggesting anyone should run out and bet against gold, but it's ridiculous to imbue it with 'intrinisic' value. We are the creators of value. Value originates within beings that have wants and desires. Just like anything else, gold is worth no more than how much other people want, which in turn etc. The gold standard originated from a very particular political situation. The contemporary idea that a gold standard or whatever is the solution to our problems is based on half-baked philosophy via Ayn Rand. Yes, gold has a value that is not defined by government, but that doesn't make it 'objective'. If Rearden metal was half as good as it sounded, Galt would have looked pretty thick with his gold.


Also, in terms of social history the article is laughable rubbish. How many people in Britain had the kind of comfort of living that we do when the U.K. was on the gold standard? It's hard to take comfort from the strength of a currency you have next to nothing of.

385
The Lounge / Re: Cats are better than dogs.
« on: January 10, 2013, 08:56:54 PM »
Dogs offer more protection from home intrusion.


Unless you bring meat, or train them not to accept meat from strangers. Which is really hard. Never mind that this means thinking of your pet as tool rather than, you know, a pet.


I don't think cats are better than dogs, but I do think they make for much more manageable pets. A dog is a big responsibility. A cat is largely its own responsibility, and that is a good thing in a pet. That said, I'd love a dog. But I do sometimes wonder how much of that is convention, or a desire to be depended upon absolutely.

386
The Lounge / Re: Wild West Lynching (Werewolf) - Signups
« on: January 10, 2013, 08:45:58 PM »
I'm in, and I want to be either the sharif or the depute.

387
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: The Flat Earth Society needs an anthem
« on: January 10, 2013, 07:56:14 PM »
He does have more than 1,000 posts. And he clearly is doing things around here.


I've been vocally critical of Daniel's inactivity in the past. But he's clearly not inactive, so what's the problem? The FES has a new podcast. The forum has a new skin. Server issues are being addressed as we speak. The forum and society continues to be funded out of his pocket.


Bearing that in mind, precisely who here is more active than Daniel?

388
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: Conclusive round earth proof
« on: January 10, 2013, 07:38:23 PM »
Right back at you, markjo. Highlighting cop-outs isn't my thing.

389
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: You actually believe the earth is flat?
« on: January 10, 2013, 07:36:38 PM »
Yes, the earth is flat.

Everyone else has posted that they indeed believe the Earth is flat (some even explaining why they believe this), while you simply post this like it's a fact. Care to read the OP again?


Does the verb matter that much to you in context? Clearly if someone believes that the Earth is flat, they will say that it is flat. If you want a deeper debate about beliefs, start a new thread.


On-topic, yes, I actually believe that the Earth is flat.

390
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: what would it look like?
« on: January 10, 2013, 07:33:18 PM »
I'm afraid it does markjo, and I think Pongo, Ski, and I are all thinking along much the same lines. Ski's point is simply that all possibilities are equally possible, if possibility is all that we are talking about. However, though they are all equally possible, they cannot all be equally true. Specifically, some (indeed many) possibilities are mutually exclusive. If our goal is to determine which possibilities are true, we must set criteria which believe lead from the merely possible to the actual.


Saying that we "should not dismiss [a possibility] out of hand" is therefore a meaningless comment. The fact that it is possible means, by definition, that it is not impossible, and therefore we cannot dismiss it out of hand. There is no practical difference between not dismissing a model and not accepting it. However, when it comes to what we will accept, Ski is quite right to demand evidence of what is actually true, for that is not so clear-cut: one needs criteria for determining the veridical actual.

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