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Messages - 17 November

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Flat Earth General / Flatoberfest 2021
« on: August 29, 2021, 10:06:10 PM »
(Flat Earth Conference)
Magnolia Grand Event Centre
Spartanburg, SC

23 & 24 Octobre
(Saturday & Sunday)

Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Do Nuclear Bombs Exist?
« on: September 05, 2020, 09:00:59 AM »
Can you prove that atoms even exist?

I understand that Pierre Duhem was a prominent chemist of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries whose book ‘The Aim and Structure of Physical Theory’ says that although atoms do not exist, theoretical models about the interaction of elements such as the periodic table can be useful to a limited extent.

I should say that a French priest who was particularly interested in science named Stanley Jaki wrote a sympathetic biography of Duhem that delves into the contentious issues of late nineteenth century science and which I perceive could prove more insightful to read for an appreciation of an overview of the history of physics before reading books by Duhem himself.

‘Uneasy Genius:
The Life and Work of Pierre Duhem’
By Stanley Jaki

Flat Earth General / Re: Flatoberfest
« on: September 05, 2020, 07:36:48 AM »
Ms. Karen B, the organiser, has updated the list of speakers:

Flat Earth General / Re: Flatoberfest
« on: September 05, 2020, 07:29:04 AM »
Did you get a chance to ask D. Marble why he ran away from Team Skeptic when he realized who he was

That’s actually a very worthwhile question - not because of Team Skeptic (whom I’d honestly have to look up to know who you’re talking about), but because D Marble has generally been openly critical of racism and other inappropriate things within flat earthism, and rightly so.

I’m personally good friends with Darryle Marble whom I’ve met at multiple meet ups in Oregon and conferences including Dallas and Denver.

I mentioned to him on one occasion that modern flat earthism could use some anti-racism and historical education both for its own ethics and to be consistent with its history.

If I may call the Flat earth movement of the past five years the “YouTube Flat Earthism” as opposed to this forum which is about 10 years older, then I have to say the politics of the Youtube flat earthers tends to be further to the right in general. During the past year especially Darryle Marble has denounced racism among some flat earthers which I think has been therapeutic for the movement. It needed that. One of the things that tipped it off may have been Owen Benjamin’s monologue at the Dallas conference during which he freely used the n word, denounced holocaust museums, et cetera.

I would not say most “YouTube flat earthers” are like Owen Benjamin, but it’s good and even necessary that people like Darryle Marble are there to stigmatise such things.

Although personally I confess I am more drawn to the “YouTube” flat earthers probably because of the prevalence of agnosticism on these forums as well as a couple of other issues, if this forum has a saving grace (other than its online library) I think the political awareness and perspectives on this forum have in the past often enough been a bit more astute than aggregate of those in the “YouTube” movement.

Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Do Nuclear Bombs Exist?
« on: August 24, 2020, 06:36:38 PM »
‘The Smyth Report’, the official US government history of the Manhattan Project issued in 1945 does not report about any kind of secrets that could be stolen.

Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Do Nuclear Bombs Exist?
« on: August 24, 2020, 06:30:57 PM »
‘The Atom Spy Hoax’
By William A. Reuben

The author William Reuben  was a personal friend of the Rosenbergs and organised their international support network. He also wrote perhaps the best defence of Alger Hiss and expose of Nixon.

Reuben was an enemy of McCarthyism and vigorously defended its victims.

This iconoclastic book in particular debunks the spirit of atomic energy and alleged Soviet evil connected with McCarthyism.

I would go so far as to say that the theory of relativity and the theory of a nuclear atom being debated in the 1930’s were never resolved scientifically. It was the spirit of anti-communist totalitarianism in the late 1940’s and McCarthyism that arbitrarily took it for granted that these theories were incontestable facts with dangerous consequences vis a vis nuclear weapons in the wrong hands.

A 1980’s interview with the author:

Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Do Nuclear Bombs Exist?
« on: August 24, 2020, 06:13:50 PM »
This 20 minute interview with Michael Gordin about his short but highly informative book ‘Five Days in August’ contains a wealth of pertinent neglected knowledge about the atom bombs:

I have to say this particular book by Michael Gordin written when he was younger is an eye opener that goes against the grain and holds its own because it stands on the evidence, but his later stuff is much less impressive with a perspective conformist to standard American views.

Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Do Nuclear Bombs Exist?
« on: August 24, 2020, 06:08:19 PM »
Apparently motivated by the research of Tsuyoshi Hasegawa and Michael Gordin, Ward Wilson wrote a book entitled ‘The Five Myths of Nuclear Weapons’.

This is an article by Ward Wilson that summarises Hasegawa’s debunking of the American view of the end of World War 2:

‘The Bomb Didn’t Beat Japan...Stalin Did’

Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Do Nuclear Bombs Exist?
« on: August 24, 2020, 06:01:49 PM »
Looking into the historical side of the end of World War 2, I came across Japanese historian Tsuyoshi Hasegawa and his book ‘Racing the Enemy’.

Among other points, he states that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki had nothing to do with forcing Japan to surrender.

The event that forced Japan to surrender was the Soviet invasion of Japan which crushed the Japanese military in Asia like a house of cards. Faced with the reality that Soviet troops would enter cities like Tokyo in a matter of days and they would be facing a communist government, the fascist leaders of Japan made the emergency decision to surrender to the Americans, and the atom bomb was a convenient cover story for both the Japanese and the Americans.

Hasegawa also mentions Princeton researcher Michael Gordin who remarkably found that “nuclear” bombs have no qualitative difference with conventional bombs. He asserts that the only difference is quantitative.

Interview with Professor Tsuyoshi Hasegawa:

Flat Earth General / Re: Flatoberfest
« on: August 24, 2020, 04:42:41 PM »
I bet it will be fun! I am not going, but I hope you tell us all about it.

I will, and thank you.

I was at FEIC Denver which was a blast. I have to say I thought Patricia Steere was in her early 30’s, but she’s in her mid-50’s. I offered to buy her a drink, and she insisted on cranberry juice. I concluded all that Veganism she’s into is for real and it works. Incidentally, the creationist heliocentrist Danny Faulkner interrupted me exactly as I bought her a drink to ask if I was Russian because I asked about flat earthism in Russia during the q&a session and because of the way I dressed.

As far as Robbie Davidson and the speakers and that community, I would say they have been friends with Patricia Steere consistently the whole time. Her key problem was one guy that she fell for who used and abused her. A couple of speakers, namely Dean Odle and one other were mean enough to attack her and repeat the rubbish her abuser posted, but Dean Odle and the other guy were excoriated by the Flat Earth Community, very appropriately so.

Patricia Steere never came back to public flat earthism. She still believes in it and is friends with the community, but after about 6 months to get her life together she returned making videos about people who abuse other people. 

As for me, I was at last year’s FEIC in Dallas where Jimmy Kimmel made fun of it. I actually made national TV because I emerged from the main conference room at the moment the conference staff had cornered Jake Byrd (Jimmy Kimmel’s man) with the police.

The FE staff guy interrogating told me the guy was interrupting interviews, but they didn’t air that part. Things were hot at that moment, and I returned through the door I had just entered through.

Immediately after the 7 minute, 30 second mark, I enter the corridor:

Flat Earth General / Re: Flatoberfest
« on: August 24, 2020, 09:41:50 AM »
I wonder if John Davis will make it. Is it perhaps a 3 hour drive from Knoxville?

I’m coming all the way from Oregon.

Flat Earth General / Re: Flatoberfest
« on: August 24, 2020, 05:13:34 AM »
Organiser Karen B Endecott made a trailer for the event.

Flat Earth General / Re: Flatoberfest
« on: August 24, 2020, 04:59:33 AM »
Are they going to be practicing social distancing and wearing masks I wonder?

How many people attended last year? I see quotes of 200 but photographic evidence shows about 20. :)

Couldn't find any videos of the presentations.

I didn’t go last year, but I would reckon the quotes of 200 are not too far from the truth. I did attend the FEIC in Denver and Dallas which had over 500 each time. This will obviously be less than that, but I’m certain it was a lot more than just 20 people last year.

As far as wearing masks, they are not forbidden. I have say, I know or have at least met many of these people personally, and they are honestly about the most anti-mask conspiratorial minded strata of people you can find in the United States. I personally disagree with them about that, but I am definitely a stand out minority on that issue with this group.

As far as flat earthism, they are well informed, but they have different perspectives on a couple of issues from the consensus on this forum. Their movement grew out of the YouTube flat earthism since about 2015. They are generally politically slightly further to the right than this forum, but not all of them.

I would say there is a large Bible Church going part of that movement that listens to Fox News, but Karen B and this conference in particular perhaps represents the more liberal part of that. Robbie Davidson and several others whom he had speak at the FEIC conferences are more drawn to a Take on the World (TOTW) conference in Ohio this week which definitely constitutes a Protestant Bible conference which happens to be flat earth. I didn’t bother to mention that one as I’m not as interested in it myself.

In other words, if there’s a group of people from the YouTube part of the Flat earth movement that folks from this forum would likely get on with, then Flatoberfest is it.

Flat Earth General / Re: Flatoberfest
« on: August 24, 2020, 04:40:04 AM »
why the $6.32 Fee?
sounds a bit like a 'Live Nation' rip off.

I'm sure you are above board.
So explain.

It sounds like you missed the $77 meaning the total is actually about $83.

I’m not putting it on and actually paid this price myself for tickets for my wife and I, but I would imagine the cost of the venue and other costs such as insurance are what make up the cost. If you think it’s too much, then don’t come.

The more upscale Flat Earth International Conferences held in 2017, 2018 & 2019 were more expensive. Robbie Davidson, the organiser for those, stopped doing them. A group of followers was going to do one in Las Vegas, but that’s a flop.

This event has the same speakers and the same core crowd as FEIC. The only two confirmed speakers so far are Mark Sargent and also Bob Knodel of Globe Busters, but several other speakers are tentative.

Karen B, the co-host of Mark Sargent’s ‘Strangeworld’ podcast is organising the event.

Therefore, this event is the only flat earth conference this year. There are a couple of meet ups around the country, but considerably fewer this year due to coronavirus.

Flat Earth General / Re: Flatoberfest
« on: August 24, 2020, 04:21:58 AM »
Will the presentations be made available online at a later date?
Judging from the fact that Flatoberfest 2019 presentations can be found online, then I would say yes.

Flat Earth General / Flatoberfest
« on: August 24, 2020, 12:14:07 AM »
Flatoberfest, a day long flat earth conference will be held in Greenville, SC on 24 Octobre 2020.

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Murder of George Floyd
« on: June 20, 2020, 05:13:03 PM »
Defund the weapons buying part of the police and fund the training part so they can actually properly train them. And sort out the police union. I'm all for unions but not unions that let people literally get away with murder.

‘Contra Antipodes’
By Zacaria Lilio

(text in untranslated Latin)

Professor Allegro’s article is essentially a concise and sharp summary of research by William Randles who was an expert on geography in the renaissance.  This book published in 2000 contains the highlights of Randles’s 50 year career.

‘Geography, Cartography, and Nautical Science in the Renaissance’
By William Randles


Table of Contents:

The lead and longest article is a history of geography in the West from Ancient Greece to about 1500 which states that four models of geography which coexisted throughout the Middle Ages were active in Western Europe in the 1400’s and 1500’s. One was the flat earth concept that Randles calls Homeric, and the other  three were different schools of globularism including Ptolemy and also the ancient theory of Crates of four continents on a globe.

The essay ends by describing how the currently dominant theory of a terraqueous globe rose in popularity during the 1400’s concomitant with the rise of Portuguese colonialism.

Randles’s book shows that early Christian flat earthism survived intact in Western Europe until the 1500’s, particularly within Catholic countries of southwestern Europe like Italy and Spain.


A logical follow up to this is William Randles’s book:

‘The Unmaking of the Medieval Christian Cosmos: 1500-1760’


Significantly this book contains a chapter stating that the two leading forces against flat earthism during the renaissance of Western Europe were renaissance humanists and Protestant Reformers. These latter were spherical geocentrists, but their geocentrism was close to heliocentrism in that Calvin’s commentary on Genesis (for example) explicitly calls the earth “a small globe” which makes it a mere object in space instead of the bottom half of the cosmos.

‘Bottom of the Universe’
By James J Allegro

Approximately 23 page learned treatise gives considerable evidence that flat earthism was alive and well in Western European scholarship at the time of Columbus, particularly in Catholic areas including Italy and Spain.

Zacaria Lilio, the rector of Saint John Lateran Church in Rome in the 1490’s is the centrepiece of the article. He wrote a flat earth book entitled ‘Contra Antipodes’ published in Florence in 1496 to refute the propaganda accompanying Columbus’s voyages.

Lilio had an international network of allies including the human rights activist Girolomo Savonarola who was mayor of Florence when Lilio’s book was published there. Savonarola and Lilio were both critical of Pope Alexander III who was an ally of the colonialists and famously condoned the division of the Atlantic realm between the Spanish and Portuguese empires and also had Savonarola put to death.

Another ally of Lilio was his mentor Tostado in Spain, a member of the Inquisition who was an enemy of the Torquemada family who is famous for opposing sponsorship of Columbus’s voyage as the flat earthers including both Tostado and Lilio were against colonialism and for human rights. Tostado was a predecessor of Bishop Bartolommeo de las Casas who wrote a pro-indigenous history of the colonisation of Mexico in the 1500’s that severely criticised the colonisation.

Note: This link gives an abstract describing the article, but one might have to visit a library with subscriptions to read the entire article.

Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Nuclear Power Exaggerated
« on: July 26, 2019, 09:21:06 PM »
‘Five Myths About Nuclear Weapons’
By Ward Wilson

This book’s first chapter entitled that ‘Nuclear Weapons Shock and Awe Opponents’ was an especially major part of American propaganda from 1945 to about 1960, but the propaganda lost much of its edge by the late 1950’s because of actual Soviet technological and military improvements that contradicted the exaggerated American propaganda.

Since American atomic power propaganda began to lose influence in the late 1950’s as noted in General Maxwell Taylor’s book ‘The Uncertain Trumpet’ as well as by Soviet writers, in my opinion the Kennedy administration decided to supplement the nuclear myth with space propaganda from 1961 onwards.

The nuclear myth is the predecessor of moon mission propaganda.

Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Nuclear Power Exaggerated
« on: July 26, 2019, 09:19:26 PM »
An hour long interview of Hasegawa by a fellow American professor.

Hasegawa does not ignore evidence that makes the Soviets look good and is therefore usually ignored by American historians and hence unknown to most Americans.

The two bombs were dropped on August 6 & 9, and the Soviet Red Army invaded Japan in between these dates.

The Red Army had three months to rest and prepare for the invasion and crumbled Japan’s empire in Asia like a house of cards.

Japan’s top leaders held an emergency meeting on August 9 because if they didn’t decide soon, then Soviet Russian troops would be in Tokyo within days and all Japan would become communist. Just like the Nazi leaders, the Japanese desperately wanted to surrender to Americans which is what they ultimately decided.

Hasegawa gives a lot of information about why the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki had nothing to do with the surrender decision except as an agreed upon propaganda between Japanese and American leaders. This part is summarised well in Wilson’s article.

Intriguingly, in the interview Hasegawa mentions a Harvard physicist who wrote a technical paper that says the “atomic” bombs had no difference in quality over conventional bombs, but only a difference in quantity.

Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Nuclear Power Exaggerated
« on: July 26, 2019, 09:02:09 PM »
Ward Wilson’s article got its information from the book:

‘Racing the Enemy’ by Japanese researcher Tsuyoshi Hasegawa.

Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Nuclear Power Exaggerated
« on: July 26, 2019, 08:58:30 PM »
‘The Bomb Didn’t Beat Japan. Stalin Did’
By Ward Wilson

Flat Earth Believers / Re: FE Conference 2018
« on: October 25, 2018, 11:38:52 PM »

I’m pretty stoked.

Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Nuclear Power Exaggerated
« on: August 08, 2018, 05:20:13 PM »
Wanted to mention a writer by the name of William Arkin who since the early 1980’s seems to be recognised as the foremost authority on the subject of weapons of mass destruction. Ronald Reagan denounced Arkin in the early 1980’s for exposing locations of all American nuclear weapons in one of his books. His knowledge lies more in the area of military practicalities, storage locations, history, et al as opposed to technical science.

Perhaps a very solid familiarisation with the subject of everything to do with nuclear weapons written by Arkin is:

‘Nuclear Battlefields’
By William Arkin (1985)

This book has appendices listing and briefly describing  all military installations in the US, Russia, Britain, France, and China as well as details about which one contain nuclear bombs and how many at each location. Dated, but very detailed and comprehensive.

He’s got several more recent books on the US military and the growth of internal security in recent years.

Flat Earth General / Re: Why is moonlight cold?
« on: August 08, 2018, 04:49:14 PM »
Never did get a straight answer on that one... go figure.  :)
The clear night sky is what is so cold, not the moonlight!
Well, Lane County Flat Earth Research in Eugene, Oregon got together on a clear night with a full moon in a public park with infrared thermometers which measure the surface temperatures of objects.

We took two at least two temperatures of each of each object: one in direct moonlight and the second in the shade.

The result was consistently that the part of any object in the shade was hotter than the area of the same object in the moonlight. I appreciate that group’s organiser as I was unaware of that hitherto.

And considering that, I don’t have any respect for statements by anyone arguing moonlight is not cold which are devoid of any evidence.
Repeat the same experiment when there is no moon! You'll get the same results! The object in the shade is protected from the cool air and absorbs the heat stored in the material of the shade.

I would welcome and be happy and ready to do what you recommend except that this involves two temperature readings - one in the light and the other in the shade.

Therefore, I am at a loss as to what should be used as the light source for such an experiment during a new moon at night. 

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but if I make the same experiment using the sun as the light source (i.e. making the same dual temperature readings during daytime/ one in direct sunlight & one in the shade), then I’m thinking the results will be the opposite of what I found in the case of a full moon.

So I’m still left concluding that sunlight is hot and moonlight is cold. I can dig it. Why do some folks have such a hang up with that conclusion? Just respectfully asking.

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