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Messages - Alpha2Omega

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1
Flat Earth General / Re: Perspective of the Sun Makes No Sense
« on: September 06, 2024, 01:04:34 PM »
Because Chicago will always be in the summer. (Or is it winter? Who cares!)

Why do you think that?



This is the correct RE model for seasons. Not that RE is correct. Let's explain with a slashed tire.

<Illustrations and garbled commentary>

Do you get it yet?

Yes, I get it. You're confused.

There is a fundamental flaw with the idea that simply shining light on the back end of a downward slant will cause an upward slant. What will really happen is this.


Inverted night and day. NOT seasons. This is why I congratulate you for screwing up an almost good model.

The problem with that image is that the earth doesn't make a full rotation in 24 hours. It makes a full rotation in (approximately) 23h56m04s - one sidereal day - that's 3m56s (236 seconds) less than exactly 24 hours. After almost 183 solar days (half a year), the 236 seconds per day accumulate to half a sidereal day; this means that the distant stars that were high in the June sky at midnight are high in the December sky at noon, and vice-versa. The earth itself is facing opposite directions at noon six months apart, but faces the sun both times since it's gone halfway around the sun. So, yes, what were nighttime stars are daytime stars half a year later ("day would be night and night would be day" for the distant stars). There is no problem with the heliocentric, rotating spherical-earth model.

2
Most of the topics we discuss aren't part of the science curriculum for even Astronomy and Earth Science doctoral students. They don't like teaching about the problems of the model.

No. For instance, "dark matter", "dark energy", and alternatives to explain unexpected rotation rates of galaxies and acceleration in the rate of expansion of the universe are very active and well-known topics of research in physics and astronomy today. Like the earlier issue of the hitherto unexplained precession of Mercury's orbit that was solved when the relativistic nature of gravity was discovered, these "problems with the model" could lead to breakthroughs in our understanding of the universe.

What "problems with the model" do you think are given short shrift in geosciences that could be better explained by earth being flat instead of spheroidal?

For example, except for a niche class of astrophysics researchers, few PhDs barely know what the Three Body Problem even is.

No, again. Solving two-body orbits is a staple of undergraduate classical mechanics courses. The difficulties of the three-body problem were introduced at the same time when I was an undergrad (decades ago), with the claim by my professor that anyone who could find a complete solution to the three-body problem would become famous. More recently, whether it's impossible or not, the search for a complete solution is less urgent because the availability of inexpensive computing power has made accurate numerical solutions to the N-body problem much more practical than back then. It's still well-known amongst physics students, and I suspect every candidate for an degree in astronomy (and physics) would have taken classical mechanics before graduating.

When students do find and show an interest in it, they are often discouraged from looking into it as a thesis topic and are told that it is an impossible problem that will hurt their career to be associated with or to try to contribute to. They are also told the same when they show an interest in problems with Relativity.

At this point, any search for a solution to the N-body problem (for N >= 3) would more likely be appropriate for realm of mathematics than  physics (and astronomy). If it has been proven mathematically to be impossible, then a new type of math would be necessary (kind of like the development of Calculus), and would be an inappropriate subject for a physics dissertation (What would the title be? "Another Failed effort to Solve the 3-Body Problem").

Why do you think the lack of an analytical solution for this is "a problem with the model" anyway?

3
Our psychiatrists, to make a long story short, recommended that those people seek psychological help.

According to our psychiatrists, who went through thousands of posts here on the board, mental illness is a leading factor in this entire 'Flath Earth' issue.

Well, duh! "If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail." - Abraham Maslow [Maslow's Hammer]  ;)

And, yes, in more than 10 years following this site, I found that a lot of things I only cursorily understood, I now understand much better after studying them in detail to explain why certain things happen in the real world and why they appear the way they do; for example, the shape of the analemma. The best way to learn is to teach, or at least, to try to coherently explain to others.

I've always thought that the assertion that "sunlight warms, moonlight cools" that comes up from time to time here would be a great hypothesis to test with a controlled experiment for a middle school or high school science project. If anyone asks for a suggestion...

4
Flat Earth General / Re: expand the conspiracy?
« on: August 20, 2024, 01:55:56 PM »
The heliocentric model, which represents the sun god Helios, is a representation of sun worship rooted in ancient pagan beliefs.

The heliocentric model has nothing to do with any gods.

In fact, the heliocentric model actually has earth and everything in the solar system - including the sun - orbiting around the barycenter of the solar system.

Since the sun contains about 99.8% of the mass of the entire solar system, the barycenter of the solar system is never very far from the center of mass of the sun itself - it's almost always within one solar radius of the center of mass of the sun (meaning it's within the sun most of the time and never strays very far outside the sun's photosphere, or for very long, when it is occasionally outside the photosphere). Maybe you can call "barycentric" instead of "heliocentric" if it makes you feel any better.

By placing the sun at the center, it reinforces its supremacy and embeds this concept in the collective subconscious. 

The sun contains almost all of the mass in the solar system. That's why it's near the center.

How this is perceived and interpreted by humans, subconsciously or not, makes no difference to the universe.

5
Flat Earth General / Re: Flat earth instruction manual.
« on: August 20, 2024, 11:12:43 AM »
Earth rotates with 1600 km/h

Earth rotates 1/1436 rpm. That's half the rotation rate of the hour hand of common analog clocks. Those hour hands really "whirl" around the clock face, don't they?  ::)

The lateral velocity due to earth's rotation doesn't matter at all as far as most all human activities are concerned. It does help when launching material into orbit by providing tangential velocity for free when launching eastward, which is one of the reasons why launch sites preferentially tend to be as close to the equator as practical.

Earth revolves around a giant sun with 108'000 km/h

And makes it about 1/365 of the way around it every day.

Earth andvances in this Sun-god modeled system at over 800'00 km/h

"Sun-god model"?

What does this statement even mean? Are you referring to the solar system's speed, about 828,000 km/h, around the center of our galaxy? If so, so what? Our speed relative to nearby stars, which move with approximately the same velocity (speed and direction) as we do, is much lower, and everything visible outside our solar system is so far away that detecting proper motion due to these relative speeds requires very precise measurement.

And this sun-centered system supposedly races through a supposed universe at more than 2,000,000 km/h.

I guess you mean the speed of our galaxy relative to the CMB. Again, so what?

Do you really believe in this? Honestly?

Yes. Absolutely.

6
Well?

No one with an answer to the question?


If all of what the user wise claims is true, surely all the information I ask about is out there, right?

If.

7
Flat Earth General / Re: The Earth is a comet.
« on: June 22, 2024, 07:55:09 PM »
Here is an illustration of how the Earth is lit on the bi-polar map:
https://pin.it/4UWd9MzoM

Three quarters of earth's area is lit by two half-suns? What does this map look like 12 hours later?

You just didn't read what I wrote.
The text explains that daylight is not exactly sunlight.
Ignore the suns shown in the illustration.

Oh. So you meant "here is an illustration of how the Earth is lit on the bi-polar map, but ignore parts of it."

Okay.

Three quarters of earth's area is in daylight? What does this map look like 12 hours later?

8
Flat Earth General / Re: The Earth is a comet.
« on: June 22, 2024, 10:53:53 AM »
Here is an illustration of how the Earth is lit on the bi-polar map:
https://pin.it/4UWd9MzoM

Three quarters of earth's area is lit by two half-suns? What does this map look like 12 hours later?

9
Flat Earth General / Re: Perspective of the Sun Makes No Sense
« on: June 20, 2024, 12:29:03 PM »
So today, I was looking (not directly) at the sun, and something occurred to me. Well, let's give some context.

I live in a small town, and we have a farm, along with our neighbor. Our neighbor is getting older, and his wife died recently, so we decided to help him out. My folks are away, and I have an alarm to keep me on task, but usually it's closer to 10ish by the time I get done with his field.
It's very nice of your family to help your neighbor. Kudos!

The situation described is: northern hemisphere, within a day of the summer solstice.

"So, today..."

Your post is timestamped 2024-06-19, 19:02:39 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you are, but the time you posted was 19:02 UTC = 15:02 US EDT = ~3PM EDT, ~2 PM CDT, ~1 PM MDT, and ~Noon PDT.

The following assumes you are located near the geographic center of CONUS (CONtinental US, a.k.a. "the lower 48 states"), 39° 50' N, 103° 35' W, which is in the US Central Daylight time zone.

At 10 AM CDT (UTC 15h) on the 19th the sun's:
  • declination 23° 26'
  • azimuth +93° 07'
  • elevation angle +42° 01'
  • rise time 6:08 AM @ az 58° 24' (~31.5° N of due E)
  • set time 9:03 PM @ az 301° 26' (~31.5° N of due W)
At local solar noon (transit time = sun crosses meridian = sun due south), 1:36 PM CDT:
  • declination 23° 26'
  • azimuth +180° 00'
  • elevation angle +73° 36' [this is sun's dec + 90° - observer's lat]
[angles and times per Stellarium, rounded to the nearest minute of angle and time]

Quote
Since we live in the northern hemisphere, in a sphere, my perspective should look something like this.
<image> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/816868397836926996/1253057245604745247/RoundEarthView.png?ex=66747800&is=66732680&hm=e3cc972785ba6ac260dd8090e51c8bab6437b849776a89e0dbbbb1f97ffdd499&
That is, at about 6 or 7 am, I should see the sun rise, by 9 or 10 am, it should be about 45 degrees, at noon(ish), it should be overhead, then 45 degrees at 3 or 4 pm, and set by about 7 or 8.

I'm not sure what that illustration is supposed to show, but the specifics for the location specified are sunrise about 6 AM civil time (CDT), about 42° above the horizon at 10 AM, about 73 1/2° at about 1:30 PM, 42° again a bit after 5 PM, and sets right around 9 PM. You adjust civil time for its actual longitude (8° 35' west of the nominal meridian of the time zone: 90° W) by subtracting 0.57h (that's 8° 35' / 15°/h) = 34 1/3 minutes, and subtract the added hour for daylight time, the difference is 1.57h = 1h34 min and some seconds; subtract this to get true local time. That puts local (as opposed to civil) sunrise time at 4:34 AM, solar noon at 12:01 PM, and sunset at 7:29 PM on Jun 19. There's a little slop in there, mostly from the equation of time (1 1/2 min at this time of year) and rounding error (1/3 min).

Quote
Then there is also supposed to be tilt for the seasons. 

Which causes the declination of the sun to change. The biggest visible effects of this are rise and set times and directions (azimuths) changing, and the altitude at transit to change. This also contributes to the equation of time, causing the length of the apparent solar day to change slightly, which means a few minutes of shift in sunrise, transit, and sunset times over the year. Near the solstices, these changes are not large day to day.

Quote
But that isn't really what you see. 

So I was in an open field until some trees maybe about 70 ft away. And I tried to look for the sun, and I was finding that I was craning my neck without results.  It had to be easily 75+ degrees up, and I couldn't see it while standing upright. So anyway, I stopped watering, coiled the hose, and looked up through the trees and to my surprise, I could see the sun without craning my neck.

I want you to think about this. An object moving closer overhead should be at a higher angle, but it was at a lower angle.

Then not much later, I went in on the patio, and it was even easier to see the sun.
<image> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/816868397836926996/1253061848585207930/FlatEarthView.png?ex=66747c49&is=66732ac9&hm=30c2444175d439bf260ee246b54dfc5ca7dd3f8b63237890c432fcdb99b0271c&

See, the thing with the RE experts here, is that they tell me over and over again what should be.

But I know what I saw.

At least you think you know. The sun won't have changed very much in declination over the next couple of weeks. Can you measure some actual elevation angles at accurate times? Your descriptions are waaay too vague to mean much.

That sketch is also too crude to mean anything.

Do note that the position of the sun as predicted by Stellarium are quite accurate. I relied extensively on its predictions when planning for the solar eclipse a couple of months ago. For weeks and weeks it accurately predicted the angles to the sun all morning and well into the afternoon; its predicted positions and times were utterly reliable as measured by my automated telescope mount, which can report the position it's pointing toward every second.

10
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Free thinking! More like non thinking.
« on: June 04, 2024, 10:18:47 AM »
So besides not understanding how that map works or how high continents are, etc, did you ever find that working flat map you mentioned earlier?

This one?
I introduced the correct FE map to the FES a long time ago. The RE tried everything with it, I was able to explain each and every distance involved.

I'd like to see that, too!

I suspect, but don't know for sure, that he's referring to the "bipolar" azimuthal equidistant projection centered on the prime meridian and equator; I recall that he favored that particular "flat earth map" and claims to have invented it. Of course it has the same problems - increasingly horrendous distortion as you get closer to the edge - as other world maps using azimuthal projection, but this one shifts the worst distortion to the date line (180° meridian) and equator, in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

The bipolar map is my map: I introduced this map here ten years ago, the only one that works.

If it's a different map (and actually exists) let's see if it really matches your claim, sandokhan!

What have you got?

11
Flat Earth Debate / Re: GPS disproves flat earth
« on: May 28, 2024, 08:03:17 PM »
You're whole reality is based on zionist Einstein's relativity theory.
Freemasons with a logo that litterally show's a flat earth, (also said by themselves) what exists for over 300 years already.
First man in space (Piccard) was crazy & builded a balloon & get 11 km's up in the sky..
He came back 12 hours later.. almost frozen to death & said the earth was flat like a disk with a ice wall.
This was in 1932..
He's not in the history books.. you ever heard of this man in your reality?
He became a freemason the years after..
He sweared by Einstein's relativity theory the interviews after & after ..
How u sow sure it's right .. hmm?
GPS, smart TV's, Cars, Movies,... they own EVERYTHING honey..

                               ----------

A: "If you can't prove life.. than how can u prove a global earth?"
A: "By the people you met in your life & telling u this? .. or even showing you?"

B: "But how would you prove a flat earth?"

A: "Beacause i can see it"

Welcome to The Flat Earth Society Forums, omerzuwaga. You'll fit right in.

12
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Free thinking! More like non thinking.
« on: May 28, 2024, 02:51:16 PM »
You are wasting everyone's time here as well...

If you think so, then don't reply.

Basically, the Earth has two crusts: the mostly basalt lower crust or the oceanic crust which is two to four miles deeper down than the higher upper continental crust.

The second upper crust (the continental crust) is made up mostly of granitic rock.

That's a very confused description. Can you try again in a language other than gibberish?

Didn't you assert later in this very post that the "basalt lower crust" doesn't exist?

Oceanic crust - 3 to 3.3 times heavier than water. Continental crust - 2.5 times heavier than water.

The word you're looking for is denser. It's possible to deduce what you mean from context, but that's sloppy writing.

In the post starting this discussion you said of continental crust: "The mean weight [sic] of the land is two and three-quarter times heavier than that of water." Now you say it's 2.5 times, or is that a typo?

But, yes, oceanic crust is denser than continental crust. Thanks for acknowledging that. Now, why do you completely ignore it in your ridiculous claim that continents should unbalance the earth's crust because continental crust is denser than seawater?

Then, the continents would crash like bumper cars at a carnival.

This is the standard theory. Now, the problems.

Where did the granite come from? No one can explain. But we have the Polonium-218 halos problem.

<Several links to creationist websites>

You rely on YECs for geologic information? Seriously? LOL! No wonder you think so many things can't be explained and get so many things wrong.

Quote
Anyone who paid attention in a High School or later intro geology course would know that the oceans are underlain by oceanic crust that's denser than continental crust.

Scientists smarter than your high school geology teacher have figured out the basalt layer is just a myth. [Citation needed]

Yeah, there it is! Isn't this counter to what your earlier garbled description is trying to say? It's hard to tell for sure.

BTW, I studied geophysics through college and have a master's degree in it. I first learned about oceanic crust before that.

<Rambles about a couple of deep boreholes in continental crust.>

So what? Why are you getting into the weeds with stuff you cut'n'pasted about about the structure of continental crust, and what relevance does it have to the blunder where you compared density of continental crust with density of seawater and reached a preposterous conclusion (twice!) because you ignored the existence of oceanic crust (both times)? Trying to distract attention from your rookie error?

The oceanic crust is commonly divided into three main layers: layer 1 consists of ocean-floor sediments and averages 0.5 km in thickness; layer 2 consists largely of basalt and is 1.0 to 2.5 km thick; and layer 3 is assumed to consist of gabbro and is about 5 km thick. A drillhole in the eastern Pacific Ocean has been reoccupied four times in a 12-year span, and has now reached a total depth of 2000 m below the seafloor. Seismic evidence suggested that the boundary between layers 2 and 3 would be found at a depth of about 1700 m, but the drill went well past that depth without finding the contact between the dikes of layer 2 and the expected gabbro of layer 3. Either the seismic interpretation or the model of layer 3's composition must be wrong.

It's good to see you acknowledge the existence of oceanic crust! And, yes... geology is hard!

Quote
You again insist by this line of "reasoning" that you're still ignoring your ignorant blunder. Your whole premise that areas with continental crust weigh more than areas underlain by oceanic crust (because continental crust is denser than seawater, while completely ignoring oceanic crust) is meaningless.

You are as stupid as basalt rock.

LOL!

That is not my premise.

Hmmm...
Here is YOUR map:

<https://gknxt.com/world_map/interactive_map_of_the_world/Interactive_World_Map.webp>

Now, put your thinking cap on.

The distribution of the continents is possible only for FET.

You MUST have a symmetrically perfect ellipsoid (or geoid) or there will be a clear and direct DEFIANCE of the law of universal gravitation.

Let us carefully calculate the effect/distribution of mass of the continents with respect to both hemispheres (northern and southern).

"The area of land in the northern hemisphere of the earth is to the area of land in the southern hemisphere as three is to one.

The mean weight of the land is two and three-quarter times heavier than that of water; assuming the depth of the seas in both hemispheres to be equal, the northern hemisphere up to sea level is heavier than the southern hemisphere, if judged by sea and land distribution; the earth masses above sea level are additional heavy loads - we include here all the mountains/hills.

But this unequal distribution of masses does not affect the position of the earth, as it does not place the northern hemisphere with its face to the sun. A “dead force” like gravitation could not keep the unequally loaded earth in equilibrium. Also, the seasonal distribution of ice and snow, shifting in a distillation process from one hemisphere to the other, should interfere with the equilibrium of the earth, but fails to do so."

The northern hemisphere has a greater mass than its southern counterpart.

The unequally loaded perfect oblate spheroid (first four layers) DEFIES the law of attractive gravity.

It should rotate with the northern hemisphere facing the sun.

At present, the RE has an unequal distribution of mass: the northern hemisphere has more mass than the southern hemisphere.

For the Pangeea continent the situation is much worse: such a concentration of land mass in just one place would have meant an EVEN GREATER unequal load upon the inner layers of the Earth.

That post has your name on it and contains no attributions to anyone else. [The "Quote from:" line at the beginning of the quote block is a link back to the quoted post; anyone can easily see the entire context.]

If you stole the idea from someone else (YE creationists maybe?), you should give them credit. That way you can share the blame, too, but even then you're still responsible here for what you post here.

It's yours. You posted it. You own it.

What you the RE have to deal with is this: the distribution of the continents means that the northern hemisphere is heavier than the southern hemisphere (at least for the first few kilometers).

The Pangea massive continent means that the hemisphere which contained this geological formation was MUCH HEAVIER than the hemisphere which had the oceans.

A total defiance of Newtonian gravitation.

Quote
What gravitational force? The net gravitational force pulls the oceans' water down; down is toward the center of the earth. Why would seawater "be pulled" upward to cover the supercontinent?

You are as stupid as a basalt rock.

LOL again! Your schoolyard taunts are just killing me!! I may die laughing!!!

The pull from the Sun: that is why seawater would cover immediately the Pangea continent which would be facing the same Sun while the Earth was rotating.

The solar component of tides is a fraction of the moon's. We calculated this as an exercise when I was in grad school, and I recall that it was less than half. For what you say to be true, the entire supercontinent of Pangaea would have to be less than a few meters above sea level, which sounds about a far-fetched as the rest of your ideas in this discussion.

Explain to your readers how this Earth would rotate facing the Sun with the... North Pole:

<https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/yzxGQrsNXDzWDcTKPFqFFf-1200-80.jpg>

I don't need to. The "problem" you imagine is entirely in your imagination; it doesn't exist in reality.

You're lapsing back into gibberish, though. What about the north pole in reference to the map showing Pangaea?

Have you lost your mind alpha?

I don't think so, but it's looking more and more like you have.

The center of gravity is right smack in Africa.

No, the center of gravity is a little less than 4,000 miles below the surface. Your map shows only the surface.

13
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Free thinking! More like non thinking.
« on: May 27, 2024, 01:36:06 PM »
No rookie errors.

You absolutely made a rookie error. Anyone who paid attention in a High School or later intro geology course would know that the oceans are underlain by oceanic crust that's denser than continental crust. You don't appear to realize this, don't realize what it means, or both.

You show yourself to be a uninformed rookie with ignorant balderdash like this:
The mean weight of the land is two and three-quarter times heavier than that of water; assuming the depth of the seas in both hemispheres to be equal, the northern hemisphere up to sea level is heavier than the southern hemisphere, if judged by sea and land distribution; the earth masses above sea level are additional heavy loads - we include here all the mountains/hills.

...

The northern hemisphere has a greater mass than its southern counterpart.

You are not only unwilling to acknowledge your previous ignorant mistake, now you're doubling down on it.

Indeed, for the first 10-12 km, the northern hemisphere is much heavier than the southern hemisphere. A fact of science[Citation needed]. You can't have any anomalies beyond that depth[Citation needed], since then you'd have to deal with the defiance of the attractive force of gravitation.

Take a look at this:



Explain to your readers why Pangea was not facing the Sun while the Earth was in orbit around it.
...
Then, Earth should have had Pangea facing the Sun, since that hemisphere was way heavier than the other one.

Easy. Your rookie error is still a rookie error even though you should know better now, and is still wrong.

You again insist by this line of "reasoning" that you're still ignoring your ignorant blunder. Your whole premise that areas with continental crust weigh more than areas underlain by oceanic crust (because continental crust is denser than seawater, while completely ignoring oceanic crust) is meaningless.

My initial conclusion was that you're a slow learner. On further consideration, you're making a much stronger case for being a non-learner. That would explain most of your posts in these forums, too.

Moreover, the water of the oceans, being pulled by the gravitational force would have covered Pangea as well, contributing to the effect.

What gravitational force? The net gravitational force pulls the oceans' water down; down is toward the center of the earth. Why would seawater "be pulled" upward to cover the supercontinent?

HERE IS ANOTHER VIDEO TAKEN OF VULCAN, JUST THE OTHER DAY:

https://x.com/hermesisos/status/1794650888591818940

The linked page wants me to log on to X [TSMPFKAT*] to proceed. I do not have an account on X.

<More unrelated nonsense.>

* The Social Media Platform Formerly Known As Twitter.

14
NO PHOTO MEANS: IT DOESN'T EXIST ;D

A photo that doesn't exist is a photo that doesn't exist? Well, duh! So?

See: tautology.

15
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Free thinking! More like non thinking.
« on: May 26, 2024, 05:36:01 PM »
Oh, my... so many words. So much bluster, so few facts.

How could you even for a second believe that I do not take care of things like this (isostasy)?

Because you make rookie errors like this:

The mean weight of the land is two and three-quarter times heavier than that of water; assuming the depth of the seas in both hemispheres to be equal, the northern hemisphere up to sea level is heavier than the southern hemisphere, if judged by sea and land distribution; the earth masses above sea level are additional heavy loads - we include here all the mountains/hills.

...

The northern hemisphere has a greater mass than its southern counterpart.

Moving on...
This is what I had posted back in 2010:

How about a link to it? It should be easy enough to show evidence that you really said what you claim to have said, and when you said it.

"Mountainous masses do not exert the gravitational pull expected by the theory of gravitation. The influence of the largest mass on the earth, the Himalaya, was carefully investigated with plumb line on the Indian side. The plumb line is not deflected as calculated in advance. The attraction of the mountain-ground thus computed on the theory of gravitation, is considerably greater than is necessary to explain the anomalies observed. This singular conclusion, I confess, at first surprised me very much. (G. B. Airy.) Out of this embarrassment grew the idea of isostasy.

What you characterize as an embarrassment is nothing of the sort. It is an example of new data revealing a flaw (or flaws) in the understanding at the time, requiring a new hypothesis that, if substantiated, leads to a more complete understanding by modifying the old theory so it can explain the new data, or, in some cases a leads to a completely new theory that replaces the old one altogether. This is how science is supposed to work.

This hypothesis explains the lack of gravitational pull by the mountains in the following way. The interior of the globe is supposed to be fluid, and the crust is supposed to float on it. The inner fluid or magma is heavier or denser, the crust is lighter. Where there is a mountainous elevation, there must also be a protuberance beneath the mountains, this immersed protuberance being of lesser mass than the magma of equal volume. The way seismic waves travel, and computations of the elasticity of the interior of the earth, force the conclusion that the earth must be as rigid as steel[Citation needed]; but if the earth is solid for only 2000 miles from the surface, the crust must be more rigid than steel[Citation needed]. These conclusions are not reconcilable with the principle of isostasy, which presupposes a fluid magma less than 60 miles below the surface of the earth. There remains a contradiction between isostasy and geophysical data.

A contradiction exists only in your strawman argument.

Over the oceans, the gravitational pull is greater than over the continents[Citation needed], though according to the theory of gravitation the reverse should be true[Citation needed]; the hypothesis of isostasy also is unable to explain this phenomenon. The gravitational pull drops at the coast line of the continents[Citation needed]. Furthermore, the distribution of gravitation in the sea often has the peculiarity of being stronger where the water is deeper[Citation needed]. In the whole Gulf and Caribbean region the generalization seems to hold that the deeper the water, the more strongly positive the anomalies[Citation needed].

As far as observations could establish, the sea tides do not influence the plumb line, which is contrary to what is expected[Citation needed]. Observations on reservoirs of water, where the mass of water could be increased and decreased, gave none of the results anticipated on the basis of the theory of gravitation[Citation needed].

In 1981 a paper was published ... [Citation needed]

The majority of the experiments failed to find any evidence of a composition-dependent force... [Citation needed]

On the basis of newtonian gravity, it might be expected that gravitational attraction over continents, and especially mountains, would be higher than over oceans[Citation needed]. In reality, the gravity on top of large mountains is less than expected on the basis of their visible mass while over ocean surfaces it is unexpectedly high[Citation needed]. To explain this, the concept of isostasy was developed: it was postulated that low-density rock exists 30 to 100 km beneath mountains, which buoys them up, while denser rock exists 30 to 100 km beneath the ocean bottom[Citation needed]. However, this hypothesis is far from proven. Physicist Maurice Allais commented: There is an excess of gravity over the ocean and a deficiency above the continents. The theory of isostasis provided only a pseudoexplanation of this[Citation needed].

The standard, simplistic theory of isostasy is contradicted by the fact that in regions of tectonic activity vertical movements often intensify gravity anomalies rather than acting to restore isostatic equilibrium. For example, the Greater Caucasus shows a positive gravity anomaly (usually interpreted to mean it is overloaded with excess mass), yet it is rising rather than subsiding."

That last paragraph contains an interesting and generally correct observation about gravity anomalies existing in tectonically active regions, but your conclusion that areas with positive gravity anomalies should be subsiding instead of rising is way too simplistic. Tectonically active regions are affected by other forces - specifically, tectonic forces - in addition to isostasy. Geology is complicated.

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Flat Earth Debate / Re: Free thinking! More like non thinking.
« on: May 25, 2024, 02:26:04 PM »
I introduced the correct FE map to the FES a long time ago. The RE tried everything with it, I was able to explain each and every distance involved.

Here is YOUR map:



Now, put your thinking cap on.

The distribution of the continents is possible only for FET.

You MUST have a symmetrically perfect ellipsoid (or geoid) or there will be a clear and direct DEFIANCE of the law of universal gravitation.

Let us carefully calculate the effect/distribution of mass of the continents with respect to both hemispheres (northern and southern).

"The area of land in the northern hemisphere of the earth is to the area of land in the southern hemisphere as three is to one.

The mean weight of the land is two and three-quarter times heavier than that of water; assuming the depth of the seas in both hemispheres to be equal, the northern hemisphere up to sea level is heavier than the southern hemisphere, if judged by sea and land distribution; the earth masses above sea level are additional heavy loads - we include here all the mountains/hills.

Almost everything you say above is simply wrong, but that's what we've come to expect from you. That last paragraph, however, is an astonishingly naďve misunderstanding of the most basic intro-level geology. You carry on and on about the density of continental crust (2.75 gm/cm3, which is reasonable) being greater than the density of water, while utterly ignoring the existence of oceanic crust which underlies most of the ocean floor. Oceanic crust has higher density (closer to 3 gm/cm3) than continental crust, so a shorter column of oceanic crust (i.e. thinner oceanic crust) can contain the same mass as a longer column of continental crust (thicker continental crust). The upshot of this is that the continents have to have higher elevation than the ocean floor to be in isostatic equilibrium. If you don't know what that means, check the link, use your favorite search engine, or ask and I will try to explain it to you in a way even you should be able to understand.

<The rest is moot since the premise it's based on is utterly and completely wrong.>

17
Tidak ada bukti foto

"[There is no photo evidence]"

None you would admit to seeing, anyway. So what? Even if you saw some, you would dismiss it as fake; it's what you do.

18
Not ever measured or verified as curvature, it’s entirely ignored as not existing, because it doesn’t exist at all.

Two words: Geodetic Surveying.

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Sure it’s a ball, it just can’t be mapped as a ball, no big deal!

Can't be mapped as a ball?


19
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Video. Should we see the sun Shrink.
« on: October 23, 2023, 12:00:00 PM »
I seem to remember someone telling me when I objected to the new smart meters that I was just imagining things, and then that the sun itself has microwave radiation (nope, UV to infrared, not microwave).

You believe the sun emits energy only in the IR to UV range and not outside that? Why do you think this is true?

Ummmm, I can literally feel microwave radiation after being exposed to high doses of it thanks to months of oppressive wiring, antennas, and now that damned meter. To the point where I'm finally just outright shutting my door.

Unless you're hugging one, a smart meter's RF emissions are completely swamped by other sources like nearby cell phones (technically not microwaves; much of the RF from smart meters isn't either), WiFi in establishments with a WiFi hotspot (WiFi technically uses microwaves, and some smart meters may also communicate short range via WiFi), and many others.

The sun? The sun's radiation is healing. Even a few minutes of sunlight on my feet reverses the effects of 5G bombardment. I know for a fact that the sun has no microwave radiation because the overall energy of natural radiation is far more soothing. Microwave radiation comes from magnetrons inside such devices, not from "cosmic particles" as the official trade secret story goes.

You sound like someone who has never gotten sunburned or suffered from melanoma.

So that's how you've convinced yourself that sunlight contains no microwave radiation - because sunlight "feels soothing" and you believe you can sense even very low levels of microwave radiation? OK... sure.

Actually, the sun emits a large amount of radiation in the 10 to 30 cm band (part of the microwave  band); how much is dependent in part on the number of sunspots, and we're in a period of increasing sunspot activity, so watch out! ;)

20
Why are we arguing about a fictional world in a video game?

I've been wondering the same thing.

21
Flat Earth General / Re: Most recent advancement in The flat earth model
« on: September 12, 2023, 08:17:12 AM »


Interesting hypothesis. How could we test this?

Here's one possibility: From your illustration, wouldn't we expect an outward acceleration along the equator increasing from zero at the middle and maximum eastward at the east edge, and maximum westward at the west edge? The magnitude of the sideways acceleration would depend on how fast the earth is spinning as well as how far you are from the axis of spin. Are such accelerations observed? If not, is this a plausible model?

22
How does flat equate to triangular? You're just putting me down without a sense of your own theory.

JB used the triangle to illustrate one of the properties of flat (i.e. Euclidian) surfaces. That's all. Do you disagree that the internal angles of a triangle on a flat plane add up to 180°?

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Under the "brilliant" RE;FU theory. Gravity makes things "fall" in an orbit. But that's not how gravity's explicitly defined rules work.

Do tell. Can you show us the explicitly rule defined rule of gravity that says that?

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At best the Earth should fall into the sun (as it has way more mass), which is why they have to invent ANOTHER force to explain this behavior.

What is this other force you seem to think is necessary? Orbits subject to gravity alone have been understood since the early 17th century - more than 400 years. No other forces are needed.

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As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing outside the Earth...

The universe doesn't care at all about your concerns.

23
Let's look at the real time of sunrise that day.



Sunrise started at 6:48am that day. Sorry guy, your time was AFTER the sun rose...


Where? Your screenshot doesn't say.

Northern Neck in VA. But it doesn't matter, because I further looked up numerous locations and timezones. Because I wasn't content to just an assumption, I kept following the facts, until I was sure.

A reliable conclusion you can draw is that the table posted by DOF2022 isn't for the Northern Neck, Virginia area. That's about the only meaningful one.

What many people miss about doing real research is that it needs to be systematic. Completely random sampling is not systematic. First, study the problem enough to have a good idea of the significant variables, then hold all of them except one constant (or, realistically, as constant as possible) and change the other variable and study the effect of its change on the result. Repeat for other variables as needed. If there is a (are) discernable pattern(s) in the results, refine the approach if needed. Those first results may suggest a previously unsuspected additional variable that needs to be controlled. Repeat as needed.

TL;DR: Most people have no idea how good research is done and would find doing it well requires too much work.

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Btw, sunrise seems fairly consistent regardless of timezone. I looked everywhere from NYC to Lose Angeles, nearly 3000 miles away, and the timezone on none of these was at 7am.  Unless you're living in communist China, I'm afraid you're gonna have to accept that the time the sun rose that day started anywhere from 6:27 (LA) to 6:48 (NYC). Oh wait, no, not even there.


You don't have that quite right. Sunrise time depends on both latitude and longitude within a given time zone. From the eastern edge to the western edge of a standard 15° time zone, sunrise time will vary by an hour, ±1/2 hour from the nominal center.

As you seem to have deduced, how far you are from the equator also makes a difference, so what's the point of showing the sunrise time for some unknown location as evidence for sunrise time somewhere else?

To point is to show that the drastically earlier rise time is the standard, not the exception. I looked in Virginia, New York, Los Angeles, Buenos Aires, Beijing, Israel, and tbh until I got to latitudes of London or higher (all the way up to Alaska and such), there was virtually no incidence of sunrise at later than 7am, with the majority at that day being closer to 6am. 

It doesn't matter what "the majority" of locations you tested show if the observation was from one of what you consider to be "an exception".

As I was composing this, JB posted with a better approach to analyzing sunrise times than yours. He controlled for date [one variable] and time zone [another variable], found locations at differing longitudes [test variable] at about the same latitude [another controlled variable], and also at a different latitude [new test variable]. When an odd result cropped up, he reported it and flagged it as questionable. That's an example of how this this sort of research should be done.

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15°? No, the number of degrees from my general location in Virginia to California is about 39°, yet there is a difference of only 20 minutes or so.  That should be an hour different, based on what you say but it's not.

No, you misunderstood. Time zones are nominally 15° wide; an hour of earth rotation. California is three time zones west of Virginia, which means that at a given moment, civil time in California is three hours earlier than civil time in Virginia. Thus, if you found a place in CA that had a sunrise at the same civil time as sunrise the same day in Northern Neck, VA, the California sunrise is actually three hours later than yours.

Time zones are designed this way so that a locality's noon is fairly close to their actual mean solar noon. This also has the effect of limiting - but not eliminating - variation of sunrise and sunset times due to longitude within the time zone. This has the effect of allowing most people to begin their day reasonably close to sunrise and finishing their work day with some daylight to spare. If strictly implemented on a rigid 15° scheme, the difference between mean solar noon and civil noon would vary by no more than 30 minutes. Sunrise and sunset times within the same zone are also affected by variations in latitude but mean solar noon is not.

In reality, time zone boundaries are established by convenience as much as strictly by longitude, usually along state lines but sometimes county lines within a state within the US, and between various political divisions in other countries, so they can and do vary quite a bit from the ideal. Some places also observe daylight saving time (a.k.a. summer time in some places) because it's generally (but not universally) popular among people to start their day an hour earlier during periods of early sunrise by shifting civil time by an hour for part of the year, thus avoiding sleeping through an hour of daylight and "saving" that to enjoy in the evening after finishing work.

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Based on the season, I typed a city of Canada which is now having sunrise at 5am. Abbotsford, Canada.

If in summer, Canada is having early sunrise, this means in fall and winter there should be late sunrise. Sure enough, that same month, we have a few sunrises as late as 8am.  However, even there, by November 16, there is no sunrise later than 7:20 or so. 7:32? You expect me to believe you live in Greenland?



Did you even notice the one hour jump in sunrise time between Saturday, Nov 6 and Sunday, Nov 7 in your table? What do you think happened there? [Hint] The 7th was the first Sunday in November in 2021.

This circles back to "significant variables." One of them is the selected location's civil time, which all of these tables refer to. The definition of civil time depends on the time zone, and sometimes differs for different times of year in the same place, as happened here. If you want your research to be meaningful, you need to be aware of and control for this.

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For reference, Jerusalem in Israel. Nearly the same as the Northern Neck. Longitude does not matter! Only latitude makes any great difference.

<image> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/816868397836926996/1138495266866085948/image.png

Research. Not making stuff up.

You may not be making those sunrise times up, but you're not doing actual research, either, and this sloppy work is leading you to the wrong conclusion.

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So when you show me how your silly iPhone says that the sun rose that late on that day, and I find many many countries where it did not, yeah no.

<image>https://i.imgur.com/TSAPFMS.jpg

And get off the floor. You're too old to be embarrassing yourself with smudgy photos. By age 20, I learned to use a camera properly. 

I didn't post that image. It's from someone else. If you're going too jump from replying to one post to replying to another, please start a new post for that different reply unless it's closely related to the ongoing discussion. If the latter, please at least refer back to the new post it responds to. This may help your readers follow what you're talking about. Thanks!

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Let's look at the real time of sunrise that day.



Sunrise started at 6:48am that day. Sorry guy, your time was AFTER the sun rose...


Where? Your screenshot doesn't say.

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Btw, sunrise seems fairly consistent regardless of timezone. I looked everywhere from NYC to Lose Angeles, nearly 3000 miles away, and the timezone on none of these was at 7am.  Unless you're living in communist China, I'm afraid you're gonna have to accept that the time the sun rose that day started anywhere from 6:27 (LA) to 6:48 (NYC). Oh wait, no, not even there.


You don't have that quite right. Sunrise time depends on both latitude and longitude within a given time zone. From the eastern edge to the western edge of a standard 15° time zone, sunrise time will vary by an hour, ±1/2 hour from the nominal center.

As you seem to have deduced, how far you are from the equator also makes a difference, so what's the point of showing the sunrise time for some unknown location as evidence for sunrise time somewhere else?

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Even as far east as China, the latest the sunrise began was 7:01am.


Why would you go east to find later sunrise times? You go west for that - until you cross a time zone boundary. All of mainland China is one time zone even though it spans about 60° of longitude; that's four nominal time zones and Beijing is on the eastern side of the easternmost one. This means that a 7:01 AM sunrise in Beijing would be an after 10 AM sunrise in westernmost parts of China.

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In order get a sunrise at 7:40 or so, you would  have needed to live in Alaska on that day.
Not buying it.


Wrong again. For instance, sunrise at Minot, ND on Nov 16, 2021 was at 7:54 AM.

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Even London had sunrise by 7:21.


So what? It's pretty obvious that the photograph you're commenting on wasn't taken in London. As already noted, sunrise time at some location isn't relevant to sunrise time in a completely different place.

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You can fake all you want, but nothing is a match for real research.


"Real research." LOL.

25
This is good ol' bendy light. That model was quite popular here a while ago but isn't mentioned much any more.

26
Flat Earth General / Re: NASA EPIC LIES
« on: July 14, 2023, 09:17:27 AM »
I meant that there are many online calculators and such which display position of Mars or JWST or any other observable object to the very high accuracy. Do thiese account for speed of light delay and if no how big issue would that be?
For JWST, I would assume so. But this can be done either by predicting their current location and adjusting for speed of light delay), or position their apparent current location for an observer on Earth or the centre of the solar system.

Different objects will have different effects, as will the time.
For example, consider Mars (as that is what you have brought up).

At its closest it is roughly 57 000 000 km away.
Its speed relative to Earth is roughly 6 km/s.
It would take light 190 s to travel that distance.
In that time, Mars would have moved (relative to Earth) 1140 km.
At that distance it equates to 4 arc seconds.

At its furthest, the numbers change, and it equates to 37 arc seconds.

Conversely, if you go for something like Proxima Centauri (aka Alpha Centauri C), it is moving at roughly 1 arc second per year, and light takes roughly 4 years to get to us so that would be 4 arc seconds.
I did some calculations and came up with the same distances, apparent speeds, and angles for Mars as Jack did.

Going back to the original question:
Also is light year correction applied when observing planets by amateur astronomers? I have seen people pinpoint mars in arcsecond range which would be impossible if it wasnt applied yet i found no evidence it is (on the many sites which list coordinates)

It's unlikely that equipment typically used by amateur astronomers has sub-arcminute go-to pointing accuracy. After accurate alignment and calibration, most commonly available computerized mounts would have pointing accuracy that puts selected objects within a few arcminutes of the center of the field of view, and that is almost always good enough for the intended purpose. Routinely hitting the target within a minute of arc or so would be considered quite good with this class of equipment. Expecting arcsecond pointing accuracy that is affordable by most amateurs is unrealistic.

That said, some astrometric activities that some amateurs actively pursue, like occultation timing - where a solar-system object passes in front of a star or other more distant object and blocks its light - requires exceedingly accurate predictions of the position vs time for the SS object(s) in question; those certainly consider light-time from the object(s) to earth. Quite often, the location of the edges of the "shadow" cast by the occulting object are predicted to within a few hundred meters on the surface of the earth. When you consider earth's speed of rotation, a point at mid-latitude changes position relative to the shadow on the order of 350 m/s, so the change of apparent position due to light travel time is but one important consideration.

The US Naval Observatory's NOVAS library (Naval Observatory Vector Astrometry Software) does indeed include light travel time in its solar-system apparent position calculations. Whether a particular application or table includes this factor depends on the software used to make the predictions, but freely-available software routines to do the heavy lifting to high precision is certainly available.

27
Flat Earth Debate / Re: do you know why the earth is round ?
« on: July 07, 2023, 12:54:46 PM »
Plethora of flat objects in the universe? name some
Spiral Galaxies. Elliptical Galaxies. Planetary Nebulae. Accretion Disks. Saturn's Rings. Protoplanetary Disks. Asteroid Belts.
So-called elliptical galaxies are actually ellipsoidal - they appear elliptical on photographs (2-D projections), where they were first categorized, and the name stuck.

Why do you assume that planetary nebulae are flat? Do you have any evidence supporting this claim?

Spiral galaxies and protoplanetary disks spin and have low density (which means they are decidedly are non-rigid), which means they get stretched in directions normal to the axis of spin. They are still three-dimensional, though. The "main belt" asteroids in our solar system (between Mars and Jupiter) were formed from material in the same protoplanetary disk as the rest of the planets, so most of the asteroids lie near the the ecliptic (the plane of earth's orbit about the sun) - but seldom or never exactly on it - similar to the rest of the planets. The orbits of some asteroids have larger inclinations with respect to the ecliptic than other planets in the system, most likely because they have been perturbed by Jupiter and the thickness of the main belt above and below the ecliptic has been estimated to be on the order of 1 AU. With a mean diameter of about 5 AU, that ain't a flat plane. The outer collection of Kuiper Belt objects (asteroids and minor planets) are decidedly not in a plane, either. The Oort cloud, presumed to be the source of most of the comets that find their way into the inner solar system, is thought to be roughly spherical because comets move in orbits with inclinations w.r.t. the ecliptic varying between -90° and 90°.

Protoplanetary disks are a type of accretion disk. Accretion disks around, say, black holes are like other rotating low-density masses are thinner than they are wide, but aren't truly flat, either.

The material making up Saturn's rings orbits directly above Saturn's equator, as would be expected from conservation of angular momentum and tidal forces. Since this ring system is much, much wider than it is thick, it's the closest you come in your list of "flat things" to actually being flat.

The upshot of all this is that low-density objects like the gas, dust, and small objects (small compared to the size of the whole; yes, stars are small compared to a galaxy) in all of the items you listed behave differently than objects with mass and density high enough to coalesce into near-spheres due to gravity.

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Oh the average round earther. Believes in a universe out of faith alone, as its clearly not out of knowledge.

The "average" human accepts a lot of things without knowing details about them simply because they have been shown again and again (and again) that they work.

I know in a very general way how a jet engine works (or at least think I do) but couldn't begin to actually design or build one from scratch. Maybe "they" are lying to me and when I ride in what I'm told is a jet airplane it's really being propelled through the sky by something like invisible dragons, or the whole trip is entirely VR. Those explanations seem utterly unlikely to me based on experience alone, however, and even though I'm ignorant of most of the inner workings of a jet, what I do know about them is entirely consistent with actual experience. Similarly with a number of fields such as medicine, botany, chemistry, and many others.

Physicists and astronomers have been accurately predicting celestial events based on scientific models of the cosmos for centuries now, and the rotating spheroidal earth orbiting the sun has been central to those models, and most people realize that the predictions that affect them actually work, so they're trusted. People more involved with the subject find that most of the finer details unknown to the average person are also entirely reliable, and trust the knowledge they see actually working every day. Some things are known to exist that aren't well explained with current knowledge like details of the motion within galaxies, and it's likely that we'll never know everything, but we're gaining where we can.

So, yes, you might try to argue that much is taken on faith by the average person ("round earther" or otherwise), but at least the round-earther's "faith" is earned by real-life experience of practical results.

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This is not tinder, but a physics forum, where you must back up your statements by proofs.

Nope, and nope.

This is a flat earth forum, not a physics forum. Science relies on evidence, not proofs; proof is not possible in science.

Yet again:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200811/common-misconceptions-about-science-i-scientific-proof

More recently:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/11/22/scientific-proof-is-a-myth/?sh=c3a1a182fb1b


29
Only fielding this question.

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How come the sun and moon don't actually appear to get smaller when they set if they're getting more distant?

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When even the sky and stars are actually a hot lady being held up by a very lucky dude, talking about one holograph like it's something novel is proof you are very gullible.

You're babbling again.

I'm just saying, look at where his hands are.

That has exactly what to do with holographs (or holograms)?

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Because they aren't ever getting closer or further away.

Why did you omit the claim I was responding to? Here it is, highlighted for your convenience:

I was on the beach about two to three days ago, and the coast could be seen. Standing straight ahead, you can draw a straight line across the horizon. Earth is flat and not a sphere. I could then turn in place and rather easily draw a dome around myself. Heaven and earth is a bellows. I could walk for a day, and I would never get any closer to the sun or moon, nor would it get more distant from me until it set. Actors are holding these images in the parapet, and you are gullible enough to think they are the real thing when you see the shadows.

Is it getting further away when it sets, or not? You go on...

They are angling out of sight.

At the start of the day, the sun is at a horizon in the process of rise. I want you to picture a circle where you're standing inside another circle. One of these is the zone of perspective, the other is the sun's orbit. Now, within this circle, when the sun arcs towards us at the beginning of the day, no matter where we are, we see it moving from 0° to 1° where we can just see it at the horizon. Over the course of the day, it moves gradually from 0° to 15° then 45° then 90°then eventually at 180° it drops from sight. It never dips, it never rises, so it never moves closer or farther. But it appears to dip as it is moving past us, and appears to rise as to moves overhead towards us. Same elevation, different angle.

How are the parts highlighted in red consistent with each other?

Orange: which circle? There are two, remember?

Green: how can that apparent angle change if the distance from you never changes and the elevation never changes? How could it ever reach the horizon at all if its elevation is above you?

Does any of that make sense even to you?

Moving on...

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Visibility is like the area where two circles cross each other. Outside angular range, you can't see a damned thing. And no, you can't really extend angular visibility. It's like that experiment where they were able to see the flashlight when someone lifted it (supposedly "proving" RE). You have to "lift" the sun in order for it to be seen after it angles out. No amount of telescopes can see it after it sets. Round Earthers say this is because it has gone around the Earth. Sorry but uhhh the timing you gave for Earth's spin doesn't pan out. What really happened is that it angled outside of the sky. If you want to actually understand this (instead of just arguing), draw several lines. One is the ground below. You can pretend it's a hill if it makes you feel better. Two lines on either side for a convergence point where the ground and sky meet the horizon. You should draw your stick figure in the center and have the upward lines match eye level. Draw a line straight across between these upward and downward lines, representing the horizon. Place  the sun in the center too, between the two lines heading downward, above the horizon. Now, create an -> arrow before and aftee the sun.
If you did it right, the sun is at noon position, and you can see that as it travels straight across (actually it has a horizontal arc, but let's simplify so you can understand), it appears to rise in relation to the horizon and the onlooker, then appears to fall. Eventually, down hits up as it meets the horizon, and no more sun. Whatever position the sun is, the telescope can't see it.

Rather than trying to describe what you propose that someone else draw, how about drawing it yourself and posting your drawing here? That word salad makes no sense whatsoever.




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Pffft about astronomers working with sidereal days.

Mathematicians can work with can work with pi, but strictly speaking the number number doesn't exist. It's a construct used in order to measure the square of a circle. But you don't need to do that. You just divide a circle into four 90° parts. And then use 4 instead of 3.14. "But it's more accurate." But is it though? An irrational number, when you clearly can see that a circle has  four distinct ninety degree zones? Just replace 3.14 with 4 and deal with the fact that everything will be slightly different. As long as you measure wheels or circles the same way every time, you measure a circle with a radius of 6 as (4 * 2r) = 48, while everyone else gets 36.(something). If you must have accurate to existing models, use a perfect triangle (120 degrees) and use the number 3. Nix the decimal point.

Huh? How long is the arc with some radius, r, spanning a perfect 90° or a perfect 120°? How much metal do you need to manufacture circular tubing with a certain diameter and length? People (obviously not you, but you aren't the only person) need to know these sort of things. Good luck finding this without good ol' pi.

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Similarly, sidereal days are a construct to fill a giant hole in the round Earth theory. If we trace the path of a circle rotating at the same rate all year, day and night become inverted at 180 degrees (6 months). That is, if I were to spin around a table, eventually my back would be to the table. That is, if we look at a day that the sun rises at like 6 and sets at 6, in summer, 6 months later, the sun should rise at 6. Oh yes, sidereal days are convenient. But they aren't real.

What time does some star rise on that first day? What time does it rise a day later? A week? Month? Do you think its rise time suddenly jumps by 12 hours after half a year? Spoiler: it doesn't.

Sidereal days exist not because they're "convenient", they exist because that's the rate earth actually rotates with respect to the observable universe.

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Then you try to justify how satellites can be in space but somehow have trouble being picked up when they blanket the area. Mmmhhmmm.

Not "somehow". The limitations of radio frequencies used in satellite communications are well known.

Similarly, light can blanket an area but if there's something blocking it, where you happen to be can be much darker or completely dark. Is it possible to have a darkroom inside a brightly-lit building? The answer, in case you don't realize it, is yes. Why is this hard for you to understand.

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While electromagnetic waves can travel through some surfaces, like walls, it is generally thought that “earth’s curvature is a direct block to line-of-sight communication. When enough distance separates the two radio stations so that their antennas fall behind the curvature, the Earth itself blocks the transmitted signals from the receiver.” This fact confused the father of radio, Guglielmo Marconi. On 12 December 1901 he was able to make the first long distance Morse code wireless communication between St. Johns, Newfoundland, Canada, and the Poldhu Wireless Station, Cornwall, England. That radio signal was transmitted a distance of more than 2,000 miles across the Atlantic ocean. Such a transmission is an impossibility on a spherical earth. Indeed, it would be blocked by a 126 mile high bulge, if the earth were a sphere. Because Marconi thought the world was a sphere, and he understood that radio waves travel in a straight line, he was at a loss to explain how the radio waves traveled more than 2,000 miles on a globular earth.

He didn't know about atmospheric ionization.

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Modern science has come up with all sorts of convoluted theories to explain such long distance radio transmissions, because they cannot allow it to be known that the earth is flat. The most prevalent theory is the ionosphere bounce theory. Under that mythology, radio operators can talk to people on the other side of the supposed spherical earth, not because the earth is flat, but because their radio signal bounces off the thin upper atmosphere, called the ionosphere.

Think about it logically. Under the ionosphere bounce stratagem, radio waves travel through the atmosphere until the atmosphere gets extremely thin (it is then called the ionosphere), and when those radio waves reach that thinnest part of the atmosphere, they bounce off and return to earth. Now, the modern scientists are not sure where the bouncing takes place, because the height of the ionosphere ranges from 50 miles to 600 miles in altitude.

The flaw in your idea is: if the earth were flat, why doesn't worldwide line of sight radio communication work all the time at many wavelengths?

It doesn't work like this at all. Ham radio operators and shortwave radio listeners know the general patterns - shorter wavelengths are more effectively reflected by the ionosphere during daytime, especially during periods of greater sunspot activity, when there's more ionization caused by solar radiation and particle bombardment. Longer wavelengths work better at night and at times of lower solar activity because they are more easily reflected by the weaker ionosphere than shorter wavelengths, but they are more effectively absorbed by a stronger ionosphere.

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Does that make sense? No.

Obviously not to you. News flash: reality doesn't care what you understand and don't understand.

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Radio waves, like light waves, are electromagnetic waves, and thus follow similar rules of refraction as they travel through the atmosphere. In most cases, the atmosphere refracts electromagnetic waves, it does not bounce (i.e., reflect) them. But reflection of radio waves as an explanation for long distance radio communication is not out of the question. The issue is what is reflecting the waves. It certainly cannot be reflected by a thin upper atmosphere. There must be something with much more physical density.

Or interacts with it more strongly, like an ionized layer of atmosphere.

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The modern myth of the ionosphere-bounce theory is completely impeached by the practice of what is known as moon-bounce, or earth-moon-earth (EME) communication.
 Moon-bounce communication or EME is where radio operators, including amateur radio (ham) operators, bounce radio signals off the moon. The moon is supposed to be 238,900 miles from earth. Think about this logically; if the ionosphere, which is the atmosphere that is at a height of 50 to 600 miles from the earth’s surface is supposed to reflect radio signals back to earth, how can those same radio signals pass through the ionosphere and travel all the way to the moon, which is supposed to be 238,900 miles from earth?

As alluded to earlier, different wavelengths of electromagnetic waves (wavelength is inversely proportional to frequency) are affected differently by the ionosphere. If the frequency is high enough (wavelength is short enough) the ionosphere is basically transparent. Do you know the wavelength bands used for moonbounce? Do you know what wavelengths comprise the world-spanning so-called "shortwave" (shortwave, aka "high frequency" or "HF" is a misnomer now but is still used because that's what it has always been called; it was shorter than the "midwave" band where AM broadcast radio among other things reside when these things were originally named)? You might want to look these two items up. Are they the same? Do you think the difference (if any) may be at least part of the reason one is used for moonbounce, satellite communication, and NASA's communication with APOLLO, and the other for worldwide communication?

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Either we have never been on the moon because real communication with it is impossible, or the ionosphere bounce theory is bogus and the Earth is flat. Or both are true. I pick both.

I pick neither. This is what's known as the fallacy of False Dichotomy. The reader is presented with a limited choice of possibilities but it fact there are (sometimes many) others, including the correct one. "Have you stopped beating your dog? Yes or no?" is a common example. The choices omit the obvious possibility "I never have beaten my dog" so neither proposed answer applies.

Like, for instance, NASA communicated with the Apollo program astronauts using frequencies that are not significantly affected by the ionosphere.

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Are you suggesting that there's a world-spanning hologram? What were satellites before the age where holograms of any size existed?

There have always been holographs.

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Holograms were invented in 1947 but only perfected after the invention of the laser in 1960.
But the actual word? Originates in 1623.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/holograph


You were talking about holograms. Now you change to holographs and offer a definition of holograph. Those are different words and refer to different things.

Was this another lame attempt at deflection, or deception? Regardless, it didn't work.

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It gets worse. Lao Tzu talked of how heaven and earth is a bellows. Do me a favor and sit in the inside of a chimney, and you'll see what he means. There is chimney wall in all directions. Plato compared reality to a cave where actors wave objects at the parapets which are reflect by the cave fire, while about three prisoners are chained to the wall. Ancient Egypt has this art.


What are you babbling about here? Are you claiming that crude 2-D drawing is somehow related to:

We literally live in an age where holograms can make anime characters look fully 3D.

Honey, that illustration ain't what's called "anime" and it sure as heck ain't 3-D. It doesn't even recognize perspective.

I was on the beach about two to three days ago, and the coast could be seen. Standing straight ahead, you can draw a straight line across the horizon.

Good on you! How do you know it was really a straight line you "drew"? Did you look at it and think "that looks straight", or did you trace it with your finger? Neither of those is very precise. You were looking at a segment of a circle - the part of the horizon you can see at once - almost exactly on the plane of the circle; if your eyes were exactly on the plane the circle would look exactly like a straight line. The difference was too small for you to notice it.

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Earth is flat and not a sphere. I could then turn in place and rather easily draw a dome around myself.

That's what you think. So what?

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Heaven and earth is a bellows. I could walk for a day, and I would never get any closer to the sun or moon, nor would it get more distant from me until it set. Actors are holding these images in the parapet, and you are gullible enough to think they are the real thing when you see the shadows.

How come the sun and moon don't actually appear to get smaller when they set if they're getting more distant?

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When even the sky and stars are actually a hot lady being held up by a very lucky dude, talking about one holograph like it's something novel is proof you are very gullible.

You're babbling again.

[Edit] Correct nested quote.

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