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Messages - Solarwind

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1
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: Today at 01:17:51 AM »
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The dome creates a mirror image.

Not bad for a wild guess and I would accept that if the star patterns around the NCP and the SCP were the same but they are not.  Totally different in fact so its definitely not a reflected image.

2
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: Today at 12:05:18 AM »
If you are so sure about your dome beliefs, then explain to me just this.  If that is correct then how come there are two clear and distinct point in the sky, situated 180 degrees apart around which the stars rotate.  In the north rotating anti-clockwise and in the south, clockwise.


3
Flat Earth General / Re: Flat Earth and the celestial sphere
« on: November 30, 2020, 08:13:31 AM »
If this has been asked before about the SCP it is probably because a clear answer from FE wasn't provided the first time round.

4
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 30, 2020, 05:53:30 AM »
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I'm giving out my thoughts and people are trying to fathom them out and getting frustrated when I won't follow their path of thought.

Just what is your path of thought?  In my case it is not because I won't follow along your path.  It's because I can't.   So yes I am trying to fathom out what exactly it is that you think because you are not exactly making it very clear.

O and if you are going to pull others up for 'copying and pasting' then best not do it yourself.  By that I mean when I ask you for your definition of something I don't mean just copy and paste something out of mainstream Wikipedia. I'm used to teenagers doing that as part of their 'homework' but that's because they can't figure out the answers for themselves or explain things in their own words.

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I simply started to question what was being indoctrinated into me and using my very own logic to find better fits.

You love that word don't you.  Like you I am not a 'yes sir, no sir, whatever you say sir' kind of person.  I have spent most of the part of my life asking questions about the world and Universe that I live on and in.  I am most definitely not a 'just accept it' sort of person so the term indoctrination which you love so dearly does not apply to me.

So if my understanding of you is correct then you take the view that we should not accept anything as true unless we can prove it as such to ourselves.  Please correct me if I'm wrong there but if it is true then I guess you have never taken part in any sort of course because you wouldn't trust that the teacher was telling you the truth.

One thing I do enjoy doing for myself though is looking through my telescope at the planets for example and discovering for myself the rings of Saturn or the satellites of Jupiter for example.  Thereby repeating those pioneering observations from the past by the likes of Galileo, Cassini and Huygens.  And of course showing others the same as well.

5
Flat Earth General / Re: Flat Earth and the celestial sphere
« on: November 30, 2020, 05:50:46 AM »
Yes I know the GUT (theory of 'everything') remains elusive but if you put RE and FE alongside each other and then ask someone of unbiased mind to make a judgement as to which one explains best what we see happening in the sky, which one are they likely to choose?

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scientists who are no flat earther

Are there any real scientists who are then?

6
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 30, 2020, 12:20:17 AM »
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I'm looking for the truth. I'm trying to decipher fact from fiction and truth from lies and science from pseudo-science.

I disagree to an extent with JB.  I don't think you are a liar particularly. But I do think you are a denialist.  You are trying to convince yourself (I'm looking for the truth) that a 'truth' which you obviously passionately believe in and exists in your mind is the same as the truth as it actually is.  And that will never happen because it isn't and never will be.

I would love to make an alternative and major discovery in science which changes the world. But I am a realist and appreciate that is never going to happen. That doesn't stop me loving science as it is though because there is so much we don't know and so much to learn.

I get it that you don't like the idea that the Earth is really a globe because it goes against your instincts, beliefs and all that stuff. But trying to pretend or make out something is true that actually isn't is never going to work for you.  That's what we have been trying to make you realise but you are too much in denial to accept it.

7
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 29, 2020, 10:53:08 PM »
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My agenda is simple. I'm looking for the truth and reading other people's alternate thoughts. As simple as that. You globalists are just part of the opposition to alternate thinking and I'm ok with that.

Even your weak digs add to the issues because it shows me that you are struggling to put forward, facts.

You go on about looking for the truth.  Exactly what truth is that because you dismiss everything that we try to drum into you and you cannot prove that anything you believe to be the truth is actually true.  So I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to achieve here.

I'm not digging at anything.  I have simply pointed out a reality about you that you obviously are going to deny.  The truth is you didn't expect to get caught out.  Wrong again.

8
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 29, 2020, 03:46:11 PM »
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solarflatulence

There is certainly a nasty smell coming from somewhere, but it ain't me!

9
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 29, 2020, 03:21:12 PM »
Sceptimatic, do you remember your comment about copying and pasting( #1492)?  Just to refresh your memory:

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Strengthen them up by actually typing something instead of copy and paste all the time.

Now look at your reply #1591 as your 'answer' to my question where I asked you for your definition of the word horizon.  In bold type you said:

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The true horizon is actually a theoretical line, which can only be observed when it lies on the sea surface.

Now take a look at the Wikipedia page about what the horizon is.  To quote the first paragraph:

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The horizon or skyline is the apparent line that separates earth from sky, the line that divides all visible directions into two categories: those that intersect the Earth's surface, and those that do not. The true horizon is actually a theoretical line, which can only be observed when it lies on the sea surface. At many locations, this line is obscured by land, trees, buildings, mountains, etc., and the resulting intersection of earth and sky is called the visible horizon. When looking at a sea from a shore, the part of the sea closest to the horizon is called the offing.[1]

Look at the second sentence. I have highlighted it in red.That is a word for word match for what you have said is it not?  It is almost as if you copied and pasted it as 'your' definition. So you don't like others copying and pasting text but its OK for you to do it. Right? What the Wiki page makes clear but you don't is what it means by 'theoretical' horizon.  The theoretical horizon is one created by the presence of a building, hill or other ground based feature which restricts our view of the true or natural horizon.  That makes perfect sense. You failed to mention that but started talking about gradients instead.

If we take the first sentence (the one before the sentence you copied and pasted) it says this:

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The horizon or skyline is the apparent line that separates earth from sky,

Notice the use of the word line twice in that sentence and the lack of the word gradient. Yet you insist:

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You do not see any line.

The Wikipedia page seems to say we do. Othewise why would it use the word 'line' not once but twice?!?

Taking the Wikipedia page as a whole the word gradient is mentioned only once and in the context of a temperature gradient.  Not a gradient between two different colours as you are harking on about.




10
Flat Earth General / Flat Earth and the celestial sphere
« on: November 29, 2020, 12:47:51 PM »
It is an observable fact that there are two fixed points on the sky around which all the stars appear to rotate.  These points (the celestial poles) are located 180 degrees apart, creating the illusion that the sky is a huge sphere surrounding the Earth.

Polaris is located 40' from the actual point of rotation in the north and so traces out a circle on the sky which is 80' across or just over 2 Moon diameters. Likewise Sigma Octantis, the brightest star nearest to the south celestial pole is located at a distance of 105' or just under 2d from the point of rotation in the south.

In the north the stars rotate around the NCP anticlockwise while in the south they rotate clockwise.  If you visualise the Earth as a sphere with an axis that connects points on the surface that coincide with the NP and SP such that they point almost directly at Polaris and Sigma Octantis respectively this can account for what we observe directly.

How can this be replicated if you model the Earth as flat. In which case there can be no point of rotation in the south because the south 'pole' becomes the circumference of a circle and not a point. That means the south celestial 'pole' would also be a large circle and not a point of rotation.

11
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 29, 2020, 06:12:42 AM »
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You do not see any line.
Letr me make this very simple.

If I was to spray paint two halves of a wall  indifferent shades of a colour...one lighter than the other, from a few feet away, I do not draw a line but I do belng two shades of colour that reflect back to my eyes.

If I move away a little bit they start to look like a line between the colours/shades.

Is it a line or is is a theoretical line?
Have a good think on it and maybe you might understand the horizon (theoretical) line.

For some reason the word pedantic floated into my mind as I read this.  Would you prefer the use of the word linear (pertaining to a line in form) rather than actual line?

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I have come up with something better.

Really?  You have come up with something better than all of science has been able to come up with so far on your own have you.. that's amazing? Just one question then.  What is better about what you have come up with compared to the collective efforts of science and technology? You must excuse my Scepticism at this stage but that is based on everything you have managed to come up with so far. This one claim of yours in itself is a classic case of Dunning–Kruger effect. Unless of course you can prove it.  But you've already said you can't.

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When I state facts, then you can pull it all apart. until I state my stuff as factual, then and only then will I be able to physically prove 99.9% of what I'm saying.

Sorry I haven't got that long left in my life to wait... so I will just have to pull your opinions apart instead.  Which lets face it is not hard to do is it.

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Have a look in your mirror.

I do on a regular basis.  And wow I'm still as handsome as I ever was. 

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You've spent most of your time trying to ridicule and got nowhere.

Now your turn to look in the mirror.

All this bravado from you. What is your main agenda here? Trying to convince us to accept your opinions about the shape of the Earth or just to try and keep outwitting everyone else who doesn't accept your opinions by throwing repeated derogatory comments at us in order to sustain your self-manufactured and over-inflated ego? Either way it ain't working up to now.

12
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 29, 2020, 01:54:50 AM »
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The true horizon is actually a theoretical line. The true horizon is actually a theoretical line

How is it a 'theoretical' line when you can actually see it?  Theoretical means to hypothesize.  We can see the horizon so it is an observed line and not a theoretical one.  As I posted before, not one but three independent definitions of the word horizon.  It is the borderline between the sea or the land and the sky. Actually it is better to use the word boundary line rather than borderline.  The word theoretical was not mentioned in any of those definitions from three different dictionaries.

It is only you who has put the word theoretical in. 

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What exactly would you like. Be specific and do not make it complicated to draw.

I for one would like a diagram from you showing specifically what shape your Earth is. Or is that too complicated for you to draw? I don't need to draw a diagram of Earth myself because umpteen of them have already been drawn.  To see multiple examples simply type into Google (other search engines are available) 'diagram of Earth' and see what you come up with.  My own search just came up with 821 million results. All showing pretty much the same thing. But yours, Scepti is obviously different to any of those.

I get it that you don't believe the Earth is spherical. That is clear and obvious to all. You say that the rest of us believe it is simply because we are 'told' that it is and that this idea has been 'indoctrinated' into us.  Yet we don't need to be told anything of the sort.  I don't spend my life sitting in a lecture room listening to someone telling me what the real world out there (outside the lecture room) is like and expecting me to take their word for it.  I actively get off my backside, go outside and observe things for myself. Then I make interpretations of those observations for myself. And all the evidence I have gathered for myself (distinct from what I have been told) tells me the Earth is most definitely a sphere.  As it does for 99.9% of the population.

Science doesn't 'indoctrinate' anything into us.  It actively encourages us to ask questions about everything we experience and to find out for ourselves using all the data and resources available to us.  That's what scientists do for a living.  You could say they spend their careers trying to prove themselves wrong.  And they are mightily pleased if they do prove themselves to be wrong. Because that provides them (and us) with an opportunity to learn.

When you say 'I question it' it just means you don't believe it.  Fair enough. Come up with something better and explain fully (with diagrams) why your ideas are right and everyone else is wrong. Remember a diagram is worth 1000 words.  Instead all you do is keep on posting the same old abstract condescending claims about everyone else on here who don't share your wild and totally unfounded beliefs. You said before 'in my opinion' (post #1539).  Having an opinion doesn't mean your are right and doesn't prove anything does it.


13
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 29, 2020, 12:59:26 AM »
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The clue is in the word. Surely you must understand that.

You don't need to go on about clues to me.  I know what horizon means but my definition seems to be different to yours.  So you tell me what your definition of horizon is.  Like I said, a clear and simple question for you to answer.

Try answering a question put to you for a change rather than just posting a comment in your usual condescending style.

14
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 27, 2020, 06:02:22 AM »
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You have no horizon on a globe

What is your definition of the word horizon then?  Simple direct question so you should be able to give an equally simple direct answer.

15
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 27, 2020, 05:40:23 AM »
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It's been well explained. If you think it hasn't then force me to do better by showing me what you're struggling with, specifically.

Well let's just pretend that I am a complete dummy like yourself (your previous admission not mine) and try starting from the beginning.  Then I will let you know when I start struggling.

16
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 27, 2020, 03:13:57 AM »
You keep on going on about we think this and we are told that.  What you haven't explained at all yet is why you are so sure you are right and why we are all wrong.

17
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 27, 2020, 02:20:07 AM »
Exactly the same principle.  Take a beach ball or a basket ball or even a gym ball.  Now stick a lump of blu tak on it somewhere on the surface.  Now hold the ball at arms length in front of you such that the blu tak is hidden beyond the top edge on part of the surface you can't see.  Now rotate the ball directly towards you slowly so your hands represent the axis of rotation.

What happens?  The blu tak seems to rise up from the visible edge of the ball.  What is so hard to understand about that?

18
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 26, 2020, 03:02:22 AM »
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Engage your brain and tell me how something that curves away and down from you can suddenly rise to your eye level.
Just simply explain it.

You really don't understand simple geometry do you.   If there's any brain engaging that needs to be done around here it is yours, not mine.... and that also seems to be the opinion of everyone else on here so it's definitely not me.

And yes you are right about one thing though.  Your claim that we don't all live on a globe is just your opinion.  Nothing more.  Have you ever been wrong in your life before?  If not then please tell me your secret.


19
Flat Earth General / Re: Text Book Science Completeness
« on: November 25, 2020, 02:41:13 PM »
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I cant find the most definitive pictures right now, but I don't think the horizon is that far normally.

The distance of the horizon increases with altitude as you'd expect.  So it entirely depends on what height these long range photos were taken from.  But since you can't find any at the moment we don't have much to go on.

20
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 25, 2020, 02:10:00 AM »
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How can all objects rise from the ground on your globe when it's supposed to be curving away and DOWN, from you?

You mean to tell us that you really can't figure that out?  It's not that hard and I think we've already given you more than enough explanation (including diagrams) of how this works.  We cannot learn it for you.  That much you need to do yourself.

Is your definition of a sphere/globe the same as everyone elses?

21
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 24, 2020, 06:10:35 AM »
The fact is that you can only change some ones mind if they are willing to have it changed.  Some people only want to see things according to a particular point of view, no matter what evidence is presented to them.  If that suits them then we can have no argument with them since we are all entitled to our individual opinions.

Conspiracy theorists are the classic example.  They simply set the conditions for 'evidence; that they will accept.  Knowing perfectly well that those conditions mean that no one can prove (to them) that their beliefs, opinions (call it what you will) can be proved wrong.

The more they dismiss things which are quite plain, clear and obvious to us, and the more ludicrous their claims become so the more the 'non-believers' will argue back unsuccessfully.  That simply reinforces their belief that they are right.  I don't reply back to anything Scepti says because I think I will change his mind anymore.  I simply reply back because I kind of enjoy the 'banter' if you can call it that.

22
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 23, 2020, 02:08:01 PM »
Here you go...


23
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 23, 2020, 01:51:31 PM »
I know... all these years I've been looking out towards the horizon and convinced that it curves down.  But all these years I've been wrong.  The horizon curves up!  How silly of me not to realise.

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If you think you see a physical horizon by looking out to sea then you carry on.

OK tell me what it is I'm seeing then.  I just looked up the word horizon on dictionary.com and this is what I found.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/horizon?s=t

Just to verify that, I thought I would try a different site completely.  So I looked up the word horizon on another dictionary website.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/horizon

So that's two definitions that seem to agree with what JB is saying but not what Scepti is insisting.  Here is JBs description of the horizon:

3 - That means if you started out looking down and slowly raised your head, your would see some kind of transition between ground/sea and sky.

Just to be sure lets just try a third website:

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/horizon

Seems pretty similar to the previous two dictionary site definitions to me.

So how might a fourth site - dictionaryaccordingtosceptimatic.com define the horizon as I wonder?

24
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 23, 2020, 11:41:59 AM »
It doesn't even need to be 12oclock and 9oclock does it.  10oclock or even 11oclock would be enough

11oclock to 12oclock is one 1/12 of the circumference.  The Earth is 40,000km so 40,000km/12 = 3,333 miles.  I don't think anyone would claim to be able to see directly something over 3000 miles from where they are standing.  That's a bit like me standing at Lands End and expecting to see the Empire State Building.

25
Flat Earth General / Re: Text Book Science Completeness
« on: November 23, 2020, 09:31:11 AM »
Which long range photos are they then? 

If I could stand at Lands End in Cornwall and look across the Atlantic and spot the Empire State Building or the Statue of Liberty over in the US then I would accept the Earth is flat.  Short of that, afraid not.

26
Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 23, 2020, 09:30:09 AM »
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What I have found is the truth of the lies told to us...meaning we do not live on a spinning globe.

O right... and where did you find that truth then?

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Flat Earth General / Re: Text Book Science Completeness
« on: November 22, 2020, 10:45:05 PM »
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So what is the easisiest way I can confirm for myself that the earth is actually a globe?

Well the same evidence is available to everyone so it really depends on what evidence you are willing to accept.

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Flat Earth General / Re: Text Book Science Completeness
« on: November 22, 2020, 02:37:21 PM »
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Actually, a sphere has the minimum surface area for any given volume

Yes apologies that's what I meant.

The point is that a sphere has always been seen as a symbol of geometric perfection.  So it was natural for the Earth and all planets to be historically regarded as spheres as far back, as I said as Pythagoras' time.  Also the planetary orbits were also seen as circular.  A circle being a sphere but in just 2 dimensions.

Several significant historical figures similarly taught that the Earth is a sphere which kind of leads you to wonder where this idea of the Earth being flat came from?  And indeed why?  It is noted that there was a belief among many during Aristotles time that the Earth was flat, but Aristotle himself regarded it as a sphere.  To quote Aristotle himself,

"The evidence of the senses further corroborates this. How else would eclipses of the moon show segments shaped as we see them? As it is, the shapes which the moon itself each month shows are of every kind -- straight, gibbous, and concave -- but in eclipses the outline is always curved: and, since it is the interposition of the earth that makes the eclipse, the form of this line will be caused by the form of the earth's surface, which is therefore spherical.

    Again, our observations of the stars make it evident, not only that the earth is circular, but that it is a circle of no great size. For quite a small change of position to south or north causes a manifest alteration of the horizon. There is much change, I mean, in the stars which are overhead, and the stars seen are different, as one moves northward or southward. Indeed there are some stars seen in Egypt and in the neighborhood of Cyprus which are not seen in the northerly regions; and stars, which in the north are never beyond range of observation, in those regions rise and set.

    All of which goes to show not only that the earth is circular in shape, but also that it is a sphere of no great size: for otherwise the effect of so slight a change of place would not be so quickly apparent. Hence one should not be too sure of the incredibility of the view of those who conceive that there is continuity between the parts about the pillars of Hercules and the parts about India, and that in this way the ocean is one.
"

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Flat Earth General / Re: Text Book Science Completeness
« on: November 22, 2020, 12:56:50 PM »
Well I guess when your options are limited in terms of producing evidence that supports what you believe in you have to resort to the basics.  The 'it looks flat' is about as convincing as FE stating that flat cloud bottoms evidence that the world is flat.

Flat Earthers it seems by their own choice limit themselves to what the unaided human senses can tell us about the world.  The turn of the 17th century when the first noted astronomical observations through a telescope were made revealed new evidence not seen before. Those observations supported the already long held popular view that the Earth was a sphere which revolved around the Sun.

Human awareness that we live on a sphere can be traced back to the time of Pythagoras among others. The heavens were regarded as natures exhibition of perfection and the sphere was seen as the most perfect of the solids. Providing the maximum surface area for the smallest possible volume.  So it was natural for early philosophers to believe that the Earth, along with all the other planets were heavenly spheres. 

Through history only small groups maintained a belief that the Earth is flat.  Most commonly among the lesser educated sections of the community. As astronomical telescope improved and provided clearer and better images, so the evidence mounted of the Earths spherical nature but as with astrology there will always be believers in alternative Earth theories.

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Flat Earth General / Re: What would change your mind?
« on: November 22, 2020, 10:58:16 AM »
Well there you go... one simple YouTube video and I'm converted. What more evidence could you possibly need. I hold my hands up. I've been wrong all this time. The Earth is obviously flat.

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I'm trying to get to the truth, for myself.

But I thought you had already found the truth.  That's what you seem to be claiming all the time.  So what truth are you still trying to get to?

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