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Topics - Big N

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1
Flat Earth Debate / The Big 3 of RE
« on: April 18, 2007, 10:28:27 AM »
Over the past few months of debate on these boards, Iíve found that there are three irrefutable evidences of a spherical earth. The first is the Foucault pendulum, the second is the fact that when the sun illuminates 50% of the earth there is a distinct longitudinal line separating the area of earth in night from the area of earth in day, and third is the fact that trips in the southern hemisphere would be stretched to unbelievably long distances in a flat earth when in fact flight times show that they arenít.

Foucault pendulum
The Foucault pendulum is a large pendulum that is allowed to freely swing in one direction. Over the course of a day, it will turn, much like in this picture:


Here is a description from the Griffith Observatory in California as to how it works:

Quote
The 240-pound brass ball, suspended by a cable 40 feet long, swings in a constant direction while the Earth turns beneath it. The pendulum is mounted to a bearing in the rotunda ceiling that does not turn with the building as it rotates with the Earth. A ring magnet at the bearing gives a little tug on each swing of the pendulum to keep the pendulum in motion. As the day passes, the pendulum knocks over pegs set up in the pendulum pit and indicates the progress of rotation.

If you place a Foucault pendulum at the North Pole, it will complete one 360-degree clockwise revolution every 24 hours. If you place a Foucault pendulum at the South Pole, it will complete one counterclockwise revolution every 24 hours. If you place a Foucault pendulum at the equator, it will not revolve at all because it would be swinging in tandem with the earthís rotation. At other latitudes, the plane of oscillation will be relative to the pendulumís position on earth (for example, a Foucault pendulum in France will only rotate 280 degrees) with pendulums in the northern hemisphere turning clockwise and pendulums in the southern hemisphere turning counterclockwise.

Thus, Foucault pendulums follow a highly predictable path. This path is proportional to the sine of the pendulumís latitude. So, for example, a pendulum at latitude 30 degrees will rotate 180 degrees, since the sine of 30 is .5 and .5 of 360 degrees is 180.

The fact that the Foucault pendulum does exactly what calculations say it does means that its revolutions can not be counted as merely coincidence. Other arguments against Foucault pendulums include the fact that heat and wind may make the pendulum move in its path. This is not true for numerous reasons. First, Foucault pendulums are located throughout the world and varying environments. Heat differs everywhere, and does not follow a highly predictable path. Heat is also not constant, so it can not make the Foucault pendulum follow the highly predictable path that it does follow constantly. The same goes for wind. Wind differs everywhere and could not make a pendulum follow a highly predictable path. Also, air molecules that carry heat and wind do not have nearly enough mass to force a huge pendulum (the one at Griffith, for example is 240 pounds) to make a revolution in 24 hours. Itís simply momentum physics.

Another argument against Foucault pendulums is that many of them are powered by magnets to keep them swinging, and the magnets may actually cause them to travel their revolutionary path. But you must remember that the earliest Foucault pendulums were not powered by magnets, but they still followed the path that they were predicted to follow.

Thus, the Foucault pendulum is, at most, evidence of a spherical earth, and, at least, a proof against a flat earth.

Sunlight Hitting the Earth
People who live in Eastern China get the same amount of sunlight as people living in Western Australia. People living in Seattle get the same amount of sunlight as those living in San Diego. People who live in southern Greenland get the same sun as people living in southern Brazil.

Kinda like this picture:


This is only possible on a spherical earth.

On a flat earth, the sun illuminates a circular region on the earth in the flat earth model, like this:

However, in reality, there is a linear edge between day and night, not a curved one.

Remember, I could give a rat's ass what time it is and what time zone a country is in. Time zones follow staggered paths and donít necessarily follow how much light is hitting the earth at a certain time. All I care about is the actual light that's hitting the earth at a given moment.

Southern Hemisphere Distances
Hereís kojiís research:
Quote
Easter Island is about 1/3 of the way across the ocean between Chile and New Zealand. On an RE map, Easter Island is about 2000 miles off the coast of Chile. On an FE map, given how far south it is, it would be more like 7500 miles.

(note: I got this very rough figure by assuming that the RE circumference of the earth would be the earth's circumference at the equator, and the earth just spread outward from there...FEer please correct me if this is not your model)

I have used www.lan.com to quote me some times for a flight between Santiago, Chile, and Easter Island. I am not sure that the link will work since I put in dates and everything and the URL may expire, but if it doesn't I invite you to start off from www.lan.com and "book" your own flight between these two cities to verify my find.

https://www.lan.com/cgi-bin/compra/paso2.cgi?session_id=xy236771176529079_5567OJY74F&rand_check=1194674.40950768&otras_ciudades=&num_segmentos_interfaz=2&from_city1=SCL&to_city1=IPC&from_city2=IPC&to_city2=SCL&fecha1_dia=02&fecha1_anomes=2007-05&fecha2_dia=10&fecha2_anomes=2007-05&nadults=1&nchildren=0&ninfants=0&tipo_paso2=flex&flex=0&fechas=2007-05-02%7C2007-05-10

It quotes departure 16:45 arrival 20:25 for a travel time of 5:40 in a 767.
In RE, that's about 352mph (~570 km/h), slightly faster because the quote times involve takeoff and landing, taxiing, etc
In FE, that's over 1300 mph (~2100 km/h), again slightly faster because of taxiing.

A Boeing 767's maximum cruise speed is 540 mph (840 km/h) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_767

This flight is ONLY possible in RE.

It was argued that jet streams help push the jet faster so that it can reach the speeds calculated above. This is wrong for a number of reasons.

First, and most obvious, the northern hemisphere has jet streams, also. This would make flights in the northern hemisphere faster, as well. So, if jet streams did, in fact, make jets go faster, then there would still be a large discrepancy between northern hemisphere flights and southern hemisphere flights in a flat earth.

Second, planes can measure their airspeed in numerous ways. This site: http://www.womanpilot.com/past%20issue%20pages/2000%20issues/jan%20feb%202000/airspeed.htm explains exactly how airspeed is measured. If a plane was traveling as fast as calculated above, then the pilot and everyone on board would know, according to their instruments.

Third, there is not way jet streams can make up for over 800 miles per hour. Iíll use a quote from koji:

Quote
not true because of my point about the plane because purposely designed to streamline THROUGH air. If a plane is in an air stream of 500 mph, it might actually help out the plane only a few mph, nowhere near 500. Therefore to help out 800 mph, the wind would have to be going tens of thousands of mph.

For example...if you are driving your car into heavy winds (say 50 mph) and you are cruising along at 50 mph, are you going 0 mph? No, of course not, because the shape of the car is to AVOID air resistance. Planes are also designed for this.

Otherwise, how the heck would any plane fly the return journey, into the wind?

Also, if you were driving a car in the direction of heave winds (say 50 mph) and you were cruising along at 50 mph, were you going 100 mph? No, of course not, because the shape of the car is to AVOID air resistance.

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Flat Earth Debate / Sunlight Hitting the Earth
« on: April 15, 2007, 01:07:43 PM »
People who live in Eastern China get the same amount of sunlight as people living in Western Australia. People living in Seattle get the same amount of sunlight as those living in San Diego. People who live in southern Greenland get the same sun as people living in southern Brazil.

Kinda like this picture: http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/8/84/Earth-lighting-equinox_EN.png
And this picture: http://www.desksoft.com/EarthTime/etscreenshot_large.jpg

Only possible on a spherical earth.

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Flat Earth Debate / Foucault Pendulum
« on: April 15, 2007, 12:48:40 PM »
No one has yet explained to me why Foucault pendulums swing in opposite directions in opposite hemispheres.

Also, no one has explained to me why Foucault pendulums swing in a complete circle at the poles but onjly swing in one direction at the equator.

4
Flat Earth Q&A / The Sun's Shape - It's Spherical!
« on: February 04, 2007, 07:07:55 PM »
Here is an example of why the sun is not a simple spotlight. I originally started this discussion on another thread, but thought that it deserved its own thread. That way it can get its own place in "Re-winning threads."

What I did was I put a flashlight level on a shelf, and took a picture of it straight on:


Obviously, the flashlight is practically a perfect circle. This is also exactly what the sun looks like at high noon - a perfect circle.

Then I took a picture of the flashlight at an angle:


If the sun were a spotlight, it would look like this at any time other than high noon - it would look like an oblong shape. As we all know, the sun is perfectly circular throughout its path in the day.

Now, if you look at the map that the Flat Earthers made, the "spotlight" sun only illuminates part of the world. The people who are right under the sun (at high noon) would see a circle. The people at the edge of the illuminated region, though, would see an oblong shape similar to the flashlight picture above. In reality, this is not the case. People throughout the sunlit portion of the world see a perfectly circular sun.

For reference, here is the flashlight at a greater angle:


This is what people would see of the sun at the extreme edge of the illuminated disc - a very oblong sun. In reality, we see a perfect cirular from sunrise to sunset. A spherical earth with a spherical sun explains this phenomenon very well. A flat earth with a flat sun does not.

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Flat Earth Q&A / Let me rephrase
« on: January 29, 2007, 08:59:41 PM »
You have not seen one. I have not seen one. Therefore they must not exist.

Any pictures, videos, or models you have seen of a brain are mock-ups created by doctors. Brains are actually a conspiracy created by doctors.

Why would doctors create such a conspiracy? Money, of course. Brain surgeons get paid millions of dollars every years for performing "surgeries" on people who supposedly have problems with their brains. Psychiatrists get paid ungodly sums of money also, for treating people with brain ailments

What controls us? I don't know, but I know it's not the "brain."

Eviltoothpaste claimed that he saw a brain. He is probably a doctor, part of the conspiracy.

Neil Armstrong claimed that he saw a spherical earth. He is probably a scientist, part of the conspiracy.

I've tried time and time again to use empirical evidence of proof that the earth is spherical using things like foucault pendulums and parallax measurement. I've also supported the argument about how going from the tip of South America to another place in the Southern Hemisphere requires a plane faster than a Concorde in order to arrive at the scheduled arrival time in Flat Earth model. Yet everything gets ignored.

Now I'm trying to disprove the logic. Doesn't everyone see the faulty logic? Flat Earthers claim that the earth is not spherical because it looks flat. Yet they claim there is an ice wall, a spotlight that acts as a sun, and a spotlight that acts as a moon, even though they have never actually witnessed any of those. And any proof otherwise is called part of the conspiracy. The sad thing is, in my example above, the doctors have a reason for conspiracy. The government does not.

Which brings me back to the empirical:

If there is a huge ice wall, why don't we ever see it on those pictures that flat earthers post of a flat horizon? If the sun is a spotlight, why does its shape continuously stay circular? If the moon is a spotlight, why can I see its curvature through a telescope?

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Flat Earth Q&A / Overcomplicated
« on: January 13, 2007, 12:55:33 PM »
Isn't the flat earth theory just way to complicated? The round earth fits patterns that can be seen throughout the solar system, the galaxy, and the unvierse.

With the flat earth theory, there have to be so many exceptions. A very common FE argument is "just because the moon, planets, and stars are spherical doesn't mean the earth is spherical."

Another one is that all the bodies of the solar system have their own gravitational field, but the earth must continually accelerate upward to create gravity.

Proven physical laws must also be ignored. All other heavenly bodies are spherical, yet somehow the earth is disk-shaped. For some odd reason, gravity won't force the earth to form a more spherical shape, even though that would be the most efficient way the particles could be arranged around the earth's gravitational center.

All-in-all, earth has to be one giant exception to the universe, for reasons unspecified.

As an aside, why is eviltoothpaste the only person who has bothered to do any math?

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Flat Earth Q&A / This is ridiculous
« on: January 04, 2007, 10:16:13 AM »
I've tried to give as much proof as I can of a round earth, yet it all gets dismissed or ignored.

I tried to prove that the distance of the stars can be measured using geometry and trigonometry (Bad Astronomy) and, combined with the fact that you notice different star patterns on different locations on the globe, this proves that the world is round. However, only one flat-earther dared to try to reply. It's especially amusing to note that there are, at the time of writing, 132 views of the thread, but only one reply from a flat-earther.
- The Stars can be Measured, and Different Star Patterns are Observed Throughout the World: Ignored
What I Learned - Flat earthers are readily willing to believe in a flat earth, but are not readily willing to spend time trying to prove it.

I tried to prove that the earth rotates by using Foucault's pendulum (The earth rotates - Foucault's pendulum
), but this also gets dismissed. The Foucault pendulum does everything it is predicted to do, and it is a highly repeatable experiment. Yet flat earthers dismiss this evidence that is right in front of them. They make ludicrous claims that physics experiments must be done in "a cozy, absolute zero-temperature vacuum chamber" in order to be valid, which we all know is impossible. In another thread that spiraled into a discussion on Foucault's pendulum (What about before 1776?), ridiculous claims that the sun's "ether winds" cause the pendulum to follow its highly predictable and repeatable manner were made. Yet there is no way ether can have the mass, even if it does have the velocity of the speed of light, to have a momentum that can affect the momentum of a giant pendulum. This is why Foucault pendulums must be so heavy and large: to prevent outside variables like this to affect it.
- Foucault pendulums rotate in a highly predictable and repeatable manner - dismissed as nonconclusive despite ubiquitous evidence to the contrary, or overly complicated with the addition of ether winds
What I learned - Flat earthers will negate evidence that is witnessed right in front of them, or they will further complicate existing theories to make it fit their own.
*p.s. - for an explanation on ether wind, go here

I tried to prove that the earth is round by presenting p waves and earthquakes to the flat earthers (The earth is round - earthquakes and the p waves they cause). The fact is that whenever an earthquake happens, it sends two types of waves: s waves that go across the surface of the earth, and p waves that go through the center of the earth. P waves can be measured and, in the case of earthquakes strong enough, felt on the other side of the world. The flat earth theory can not explain this at all. Again, this thread was completely ignored by the flat earthers. As of the time of this writing, it had 60 views, but not one reply from a flat earther.
- Earthquakes can be felt on the opposite side of the earth - Completely ignored
What I learned - Flat earthers will ignore facts that are presented to them that disprove a flat earth.

I tried to prove that the earth does not wobble on the level required to create seasons because the North Pole always points to Polaris. The flat earthers actually impressed me on this one. The earth, in fact, does not wobble on the level required to create seasons in the flat earth theory, because it is actually the varying distance of the sun that causes this.
- The earth does not wobble - misinterpreted by me
What I learned - there are parts of the flat earth theory that have been thought out some

That does not, however, mean that the first 3 points don't mean anything. The fact is, flat earthers are willing to believe in a flat earth without experimenting, and with far less evidence than there is for a round earth. It's completely ignorant.

The least a flat earther could do is admit that there is just as much chance of there being a round earth as there is of a flat earth. This is because no experiment to them is sufficient enough to prove either theory right or wrong. There is also just as much a chance of FET being a conspiracy as RET. No one here has given any proof that they aren't trying to mislead non-believers in FET. Like with midguard posting pictures of glaciers and claiming that they expand forever. Do a google images search for glacier, and you'll find hundreds of pictures of ice walls/glaciers. People like him are purposely trying to mislead us. Just makes me wonder, who else?

Maybe when I go to college and learn more about physics, I can come back here and brings some other proofs, but for now I'm just going to enjoy my last semester of high school instead of wasting time here.

Hasta la pasta,
Big N

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Flat Earth Q&A / The earth rotates - Foucault's pendulum
« on: January 03, 2007, 04:49:48 PM »
Straight from Encarta:

Quote
The pendulum consists of a heavy bob suspended on a long wire; Foucault used a 28-kg (62-lb) bob attached to a 67-m (220-ft) wire. After the pendulum is set in motion so that it swings back and forth in a single plane, the rotation of the earth causes the orientation of the back-and-forth motions of the pendulum to slowly rotate with respect to the ground underneath the pendulum. The effect is most pronounced at the North Pole, where the pendulum rotates once every 24 hours. The rate of the pendulum's rotation with respect to the ground decreases with latitude; at the equator the pendulum does not rotate at all.

9
Whenever an earthquake occurs, it creates two types of waves: S waves and P waves. S waves are the waves that travel on the surface, and P waves are the waves that travel through the earth.

I'll state that again: P waves are the waves that travel through the earth.

P waves are always measurable on the other side of the planet. A good example of this is during the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake. The P waves centered straight to an area near Ecuador.

It is a fact that whenever there is an earthquake, the P waves can be measured on the other side of the world within half an hour.

In fact, P waves are not able to travel through the core of the planet, creating a "shadow." Using P waves that have been shadowed is actually what has given scientists most of our knowledge about the earth's core; proof that there is something at the center of the earth.

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Flat Earth Q&A / The flat earth does not wobble - Polaris
« on: January 03, 2007, 04:28:42 PM »
According to the flat earth theory, in order to create the seasons/tides, the earth must wobble.

However, if the earth wobbled, the North Pole would not constantly be pointing to Polaris.

It is a fact, that for the past 5,000 years the North Pole has been pointing in the direction of the star Polaris.

The earth does not wobble on the scale needed to create the seasons/tides.

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Flat Earth Q&A / What about before 1776?
« on: January 01, 2007, 12:36:42 PM »
How did the world governments work this conspiracy before they had the technology to put two huge spotlights in the sky? Especially before airplanes were invented, before buildings could be built very high, and before enormous funding and research from the United States.

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Flat Earth Q&A / Bad Astronomy
« on: January 01, 2007, 12:10:08 PM »
I found an article here on the bad astronomy website that proves that the earth is round. It's succinct and to the point. The text is as follows:

Quote
How Do We Know the Earth is Round?
Week of December 2, 1998
Ah, vacations. Most people, when they take vacations, forget about work and responsibilities and simply relax. Not so for the Bad Astronomer! Astronomy is everywhere, even on vacation in sunny Florida. No matter how hard I try to relax and get away from it all, astronomy finds a way to creep in to my life.

A quick digression: I get email every now and then asking for some proof that the world is round. Of course, photos from space make it pretty clear, but how can we tell from the ground that the Earth is not flat? There are lots of methods, actually. One is that the shadow of the Earth on the Moon is always round, indicating that the Earth must be a ball. I never liked this one, actually: it's possible to imagine the Earth is actually a flat disk and get the same results. Another is that a ship sailing away will appear to slip below the horizon, because it is going around the curvature of the Earth. While true, this one is a little unsatisfying because there are all sorts of weird optical effects as you look through all that air to the horizon.

There is an unambiguous effect, though, of the curved Earth, which brings me back to my vacation. My parents live in Sarasota, which is about 1600 kilometers south of where I live near Washington DC. This is equal to about 1/30 of the way around the Earth, or 12 degrees. When I am at home and go out to look at Polaris, the North Star, it is about 40 degrees above the horizon. If I lived at the North Pole, it would be 90 degrees above the horizon, or straight up. However, when I visit my parents, I travel south, and so Polaris appears lower. Much lower, 12 degrees worth! That is very noticeable to the naked eye. On the other hand, stars towards the south appear to be much higher in the sky when I am in Florida. Last year I could clearly see Canopus (the second brightest nighttime star in the sky) to the South, but it never gets high enough to see from my house.

If the Earth were flat, we'd never see this effect. If the Earth were a disk we'd only see it if we traveled along the edge, and not the face. Therefore we must live on a curved Earth, a big ball in space (as a matter of fact, this effect can even be used to determine the circumference of the Earth!). But you don't have to believe me. The next time you travel north or south, try it for yourself. You may be surprised at how different things look. As a matter of fact, if you go to the opposite hemisphere, familiar constellations (and even the Moon) look upside down! I've never been to the southern hemisphere, but someday I hope to see this for myself. What a vacation that would be!


Whether you believe in a flat earth or round earth, it's a really cool site if you're interested in astronomy. Astronomy people should really browse around it.

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