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Topics - Slemon

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Flat Earth General / How could science research be improved?
« on: January 19, 2023, 05:22:11 AM »
Okay, it's no secret that FE users of this site typically distrust a lot of contemporary scientific results. There are a lot of threads that focus on why a number of scientists are not trusted, but I want to try and take a more constructive tack - is this a problem inherent to any large gathering of humans, or are there specific things that we could strive for? If you had the means to reach in and rejig a lot of academia and research science to become more reliable in terms of method, are there changes you would make? What are they?

This isn't asking what facts they'd need to account for. That approach isn't necessarily sustainable. Rather, what vulnerabilities does the current system and have, and how might they be limited?
For example, sources of funding - should some benefactors be excluded? Are there any controls that ought to be in place?
Or, for another example, is the way people qualify itself flawed? How could it be fixed?

Flat Earth General / Why debunking FET is pseudoscientific
« on: December 05, 2022, 10:05:46 AM »
Clickbait title wooooo

(If you leave an angry comment after clearly just reading the title and nothing else, I will sneak into your house and leave a lego brick on the floor)

There are an infinite number of things that you have rejected as possibilities that you have in no way disproven. One can create fully testable, and yet ad hoc scientific models for basically anything, and they can be rejected on the basis of the ad hoc, and for lacking sufficient evidence for each component section - this doesn't prove impossibility, but science does not care about showing something to be impossible. The scientific method is based upon finding working explanations. One experiment may have multiple explanations, so you do others to try and narrow the options, and if somewhere down the line someone comes up with a whole new possible explanation, that'll come with yet more observations to make. Hypothetically, a rejected model could come back with minor tweaks and end up preferred.

All this to say, a focus on 'debunking' or 'disproving' is not necessary in order to reject a model. It's just not.

So let's talk pseudoscience.
How often do people justify harmful beliefs with "Well you can't prove it's not true!"
To take a recently topical example, "There's no proof vaccines cause autism. But there's no proof they don't." The expectation that something ought to be disproven is a tool used by people that propagate pseudoscience, to encourage the idea that a lack of a debunk is evidence for the ideology. Maybe you could argue this makes debunking more important - I would argue the opposite, that the danger here is not the lack of a debunk, but the idea that the lack of a debunk is somehow justification for belief. It isn't always going to be possible to argue your way around every hurdle. Maybe homeopathy really does work, but the presence of skepticism mutes it, thus there is an observer effect induced by the act of experimentation - you can't debunk that. But does that mean you should believe it?
All this to say, "I have disproven FET!!!" is not something to get hung up on. If you want to have a try, sure, have fun, but if you fail, it's not a big deal and it's not something to treat with anything other than a casual "Huh." The more you make a big song and dance of a disproof, the more you act as though something needs to be debunked in order to be rejected, and the more you are adopting a pseudoscientific thought process that leads nowhere good.

The scientific death knell is "There is not sufficient evidence for that." Not 'no evidence,' not 'it's disproven,' merely 'There are a couple of things there that are currently insufficiently justified.'
That is the strongest possible condemnation allowed for by the scientific method. To treat it as somehow not enough, is dumb.

The Lounge / VAMPIRES/Werepenguin XVI - Game Thread
« on: August 06, 2019, 09:01:58 AM »
The quiet village of Planaterra sees little in the way of visitors. The handful of people who live there (fewer than you’d think would be able to support a village, but hey) live their lives without much concern for the wider world.
Until one day a stranger comes.

He is tall and aloof, dressed in a smart suit and a deep, black cape. It seems a little weird, but perhaps those are the fashions out in the world these days, who can say? He stays only for a single day, arriving at dawn just before sunrise and spending the day entirely at the inn. It arouses some curiosity, after all very few people come to Planaterra, but when dusk comes he departs.
That might have been the end of the story, except for the fact the village then receives another visitor at dusk. She wears a heavy rucksack, and a belt jostling with flasks of water and wooden shards carved to sharp points; a knife glints from a ragged holster.
She introduces herself as Jane, and announces that she is a vampire hunter. The visitor who’d passed through not long ago was one a fearsome species of undead, predators that survived by drinking the blood of the living and lurking in the shadows. They are also known to turn others into their foul kind, draining them of their blood before feeding them tainted, vampiric blood in turn.
If the vampire passed through Planaterra, there is a good chance it has turned one of your fair village into a creature of the night. Newborn vampires are different, weaker, but in recompense they will not suffer more than a mild itching even under the midday Sun. In seven days time however they will come into their full power, and though daylight might kill them there would be little hope of the village, small as it is, surviving.
The newborn vampire, however, is not defenceless. Though it may not have much more physical strength than an ordinary human, it is beginning to gain the skills a mature vampire might wield with impunity. In the nighttime hours, when it is strongest, it can hypnotise people or even turn them into more vampires.

They have three weaknesses, and three alone. One, they are still weak and so will only have limited access to their skills. Two, certain tests can be performed to identify even a freshly turned vampire though, complex as they are, these may only be performed once per day. And three, they can still be killed by the same means as any other vampire, and killed more easily while it is weaker. Beheading, fire, and a wooden stake through the heart.
But in seven days, Jane warns, the village will have no hope. Even a seasoned vampire hunter only hunts mature vampires during the day, and even then only when a trap is prepared. Anything else would be foolhardy. In seven days, if the vampiric infection is not defeated, all will die.

Like werewolf, the game takes place in day/night cycles. Our tale begins at dusk. There are no special roles, beyond the game beginning with a single vampire. There is no psychic, nor any similar abilities, the villagers have nothing but their wits and what weapons they can improvise. A ghost council might form, but they will have no more knowledge than regular players. Major changes underlined.

During the day, all players cast their votes for who to kill, under the assumption that the target is the vampire. They win if all vampires are wiped out. Players cast their votes in square brackets, [I vote to…] with some suitable verb and the name of the person they suspect. Vampires too can cast a vote, believed to be ordinary humans. Whoever has the most votes for them is killed. If there is a tie between two players, both parties are killed. Between three or more, no one is killed.

During the night, players vote for the vampire hunter (the narrator, yours truly) to test another player’s humanity. If there is a tie, the vampire hunter chooses at random. Whoever wins the vote will be subjected to tests to locate a vampire, and the nature of the person scanned will be revealed to the whole village.
The vampire also acts during the night. They have a choice of three actions; the vampire might choose to feed, and kill a villager of their choice. They might choose to mesmerise a villager,  making it so none of that villager’s votes will count, something the villager will not be aware of, but they will still be alive to serve as another suspect for the villagers. Or finally, they might choose to turn a villager and transform a villager of their choice into another vampire, at any stage of the game. If a mesmerised villager is turned, they regain the ability to vote.
Vampires win when there are not enough villagers to gain a voting majority against them. For example, there are two vampires and five villagers, but three are hypnotised. Vampires also win should any one survive seven days from when it was turned.
Only the original vampire is capable of turning humans, as it was sired from a mature vampire as opposed to a newborn, and it may do so only once. Out of a desire for subtlety,  even when there is more than one vampire only one action may be performed each night.

Dead players may post only during the night. They have no vote.

A world where the living may be no help and have no vote, where any night the villagers’ champion might succumb to evil, where even you might find your allegiance shifting overnight… That is the world you find yourself in.
Good luck. For if you fail in aiding the vampire hunter in seeking out the evil that has come to Planaterra, who knows what harm it will do next?

Night has just fallen.

Residents of Planaterra
Boydster - human. burn baby burn
Crouton - the original vampire
SCG - hypnotised
Bom Tishop
Junker - hypnotised
Colonel Gaydafi - vampire, steaked

The Lounge / A Game of Vampire - Spectator Thread
« on: August 01, 2019, 04:26:19 PM »
Let’s shake things up! Forget werepenguins, now we’re onto vampires. Tried to keep things relatively basic, but I’ll throw in a minigame of CFC’s style: the setting is ready for you to explore and interact with, and has some secrets of its own, a few discoveries planned if you look around and think carefully. However, don’t let that distract you from the main game.

Just so people know the basics of the new ruleset, here they are so you know what you're in for:

Like werewolf, the game takes place in day/night cycles. Our tale begins at dusk. There are no special roles, beyond the game beginning with a single vampire. There is no psychic, nor any similar abilities, the villagers have nothing but their wits and what weapons they can improvise. A ghost council might form, but they will have no more knowledge than regular players. PMs to talk about suspicions are encouraged. Major changes underlined.

During the day, all players cast their votes for who to kill, under the assumption that the target is the vampire. They win if all vampires are wiped out. Players cast their votes in square brackets, [I vote to…] with some suitable verb and the name of the person they suspect. Vampires too can cast a vote, believed to be ordinary humans. Whoever has the most votes for them is killed. If there is a tie between two players, both parties are killed. Between three or more, no one is killed.

During the night, players vote for the vampire hunter (the narrator, yours truly) to test another player’s humanity. If there is a tie, the vampire hunter chooses at random. Whoever wins the vote will be subjected to tests to locate a vampire, and the nature of the person scanned will be revealed to the whole village.
The vampire also acts during the night. They have a choice of three actions; the vampire might choose to feed, and kill a villager of their choice. They might choose to mesmerise a villager,  making it so none of that villager’s votes will count, something the villager will not be aware of, but they will still be alive to serve as another suspect for the villagers. Or finally, they might choose to turn a villager and transform a villager of their choice into another vampire, at any stage of the game. If a mesmerised villager is turned, they regain the ability to vote. It may not be uncommon for the villagers to have no idea what occurred during the night.
Vampires win when there are not enough villagers to gain a voting majority against them. For example, there are two vampires and five villagers, but three are hypnotised. Vampires also win should any one survive seven days from when it was turned. Most games don't go on that long, but just in case you need an incentive to not drag your feet, there you go.
Only the original vampire is capable of turning humans, as it was sired from a mature vampire as opposed to a newborn, and it may do so only once. Out of a desire for subtlety,  even when there is more than one vampire, only one action may be performed each night.

Dead players may still post, and can even participate in the minigames. They have no vote however, nor any ability to physically interact with the world.

Big change summary: rather than killing, the vampire can hypnotise to ensure a villager is no threat to it so you can’t count on nightly kills to limit those you suspect. Rather than having a player serve as psychic, the narrator does so and announces all results publicly, thus removing any need for a ghost council and giving players something to vote on at night as well. The vampire can convert one other to its cause at any night during the game, even someone previously confirmed as human. If the vote ties between two players then both are killed rather than neither, but be warned, this can be hard to force on later days when villagers have been hypnotised. And finally, there is a time limit of seven days before the vampire is too powerful to defeat.

A world where the living may be no help and have no vote, where any night the villagers’ champion might succumb to evil, where even you might find your allegiance shifting overnight… That is the world you find yourself in.
Good luck. For if you fail in aiding the vampire hunter in seeking out the evil that has come to your village, who knows what harm it will do next?

If you have any thoughts/objections, let me know! If you’d rather there not be mini-games, for example, if several people agree then they’ll be cut, though I promise they won’t get in the way of the main thing.
Those who’ve signed up will be listed here. Here’s hoping for a fair few players! (If we get a lot, the vampire will be tweaked). 
No solid start date, but putting this up sooner rather than later so we get a few days.

Village Residents
Colonel Gaydafi

The Lounge / Werepenguins vs NASA XIV: Flatty McFlatface
« on: April 15, 2019, 08:10:43 AM »
Launch day is here. The FESS Flatty McFlatface is sealed up tight, and everyone is on board. Countdown…
Ten. Nine. Eight. Seven. Six. Five.

“Pfft. There’s no way that’s ever going to fly,” says one of the observers, a Round Earther brought to witness the triumph of FE Science and hopefully be convinced. There are those that know him as Rabinoz. “No aerodynamic shape at all.”
“No, no,” says one of the scientists. “It doesn’t need aerodynamics, it relies on the effect of laevorotatory subq-”
“They’re not real!” insists Rabinoz.

Four. Three. Two…

“Get away from there!” the scientist suddenly shouts. Rabinoz rolls his eyes.
“Why?” he said, nearing the ship. “It’s not going to do anything. It’s obvious-”

One. Lift-off!

With a tremendous wave of propulsive force, the FESS Flatty McFlatface takes off into the sky. Beneath it, flattened by a counter-force that pushed downwards, lays a crushed Rabinoz. One can only hope he saw the light in his final moments.
He was the first casualty of this journey. He will not be the last, because seconds later and the FESS Flatty McFlatface’s alarm systems start blaring.
Two NASA agents have been detected. Two werepenguins are aboard. Danger! Danger!
And there is no way out…

Your New Home

The blueprints of the FESS Flatty McFlatface are available. You may find items of interest if you choose to linger in certain rooms.

The Jumped-up Automatic Neural Electronic brain, or JANE system will be your only other company on this journey. A cutting edge AI, it monitors each area of the ship at all times. Questions and requests will be answered when it can spare the processing power.

Rules and roles are at:

Minimission is at:

The two NASA agents are Sirius and Vega. One is an Elite with two rolesthe other has just one role.
The two penguins are Private and Kowalski. One is an Emperor Penguin with two roles, the other has just one role.
Sirius and Private go first.

Crew Manifest
NSS - wrong end of a gun
Boydster - the last survivor
Crouton - died for what he believed in
CFC - faced sky justice
Junker - Both eater and eaten
Stash - planked, victorious wildcard
Space Cowgirl - killed by a psycho NASA
Son of Orospu - the downsides of going to the gym
DuckDodgers - Penguin, went after the wrong person
Colonel Gaydafi - Emperor Penguin, should've done the minigame properly
Jura-Glenlivet - NASA agent, aroused the wrath of a vigilante

Day One

Day Two
Boydster votes to lynch CFC
Duck votes to lynch CFC
Stash votes to lynch CFC
CFC votes to lynch Duck
Junker votes to lynch Duck
Jura votes to lynch Duck
Crouton votes to lynch CFC
NSS votes to lynch CFC

CFC, a villager, is lynched.
Son of Orospu is killed by NASA

Day Three
Boydster votes to lynch Gayer
SCG votes to lynch Gayer
Gayer votes to lynch Boydster
Jura votes to lynch Gayer
Duck votes to lynch Gayer
NSS votes to lynch Gayer

Gayer, the Emperor Penguin, is lynched.
Junker and Crouton are eaten, but Junker takes down Duck, the other penguin.

Day Four
Boydster votes to lynch Stash
Stash votes to lynch Boydster
SCG votes to lynch Stash
NSS votes to lynch Stash
Jura votes to lynch Stash

Stash, a villager, is lynched. Jura, NASA agent Vega, is taken out by a vigilante.
SCG is killed by the final NASA agent, who then turns his gun on NSS. Boydster doesn't stand a chance.
NASA wins.

The Lounge / Werepenguins vs NASA XIV Spectator's Thread
« on: April 11, 2019, 08:06:18 AM »
It has taken many years of planning, preparation and discovery, but the time is finally here. The Flat Earth Society Ship, the good ship FESS Flatty McFlatface, is ready. A specially selected team have been recruited to go aboard.
A marvel of modern engineering, it runs on an engine that triggers laevorotatory subquarks via the Biefeld-Brown effect, generating a supreme antigravitational force. When it is activated, the entire ship may lift up off the ground and, slowly, ascend. The first voyage of the FESS Flatty McFlatface will be the greatest; to ascend high enough to bring back undoctored, undistorted images of the flatness of the Earth, and perhaps even to bring back solid proof of the Dome.

The ship is a wonder. Living quarters for over a dozen crew, a gym for people to keep in shape, a vast stocked larder and dining area to keep everyone fed for the days the journey will take, an observation deck offering an increasingly wonderful view…
And, of course, the marvel of engineering itself. The engine, and the constant antigravitational force it will produce. It is all that stands between you and falling to a fiery death.

Such a thing could not be allowed of course. Elite agents from NASA have been sent to infiltrate and sabotage the mission, killing all witnesses. They brought penguin servants along with them, but the bloodthirsty creatures were able to break free of control and now fight back, both against their former overlords, and against the genuine flat earthers.
But the moment the mission begins, the FESS Flatty McFlatface will be in flight. The doors will be shut, and even if they weren’t the only way down is a long, long drop. You will be trapped inside, with NASA and penguins both.

This is a modified Penguins v NASA game, because to me it’s felt like the evil teams have had a hard go of it winning, and that stalemate has often been a preferable option. Even when it got close, stalemate was still the best outcome, and it took major unpredictability and chaos for an evil team to stand a chance.

Major tweaks: the empath no longer dies but rather loses their power if their target is killed. The scam artist can now choose to subtract votes, while the politician can always keep track of what the scam artist has done. The vigilante’s ability now takes effect at dawn or dusk to prevent time zones giving an unfair advantage. The channeler’s role is random. The wildcard has a role to cover their own. Penguins and NASA each get unique traits. New roles in bard (a stronger alchemist) and necromancer (modified thief) and possessor (tweaked spirit magician). Mandatory roles cannot be stolen.

Giving the roles and rules a last once-over, will post them after this, but it's been long enough so may as well get this sign-up going. Planning at least one minigame, ultimately with a tangible reward, and as such am planning to make it particularly tricky.
If we get a lot of players one of the penguins and one of the NASA agents will be an Elite, and will possess two roles rather than just one.

Sign-up Sheet
Space Cowgirl
Son of Orospu
Colonel Gaydafi

The benefits of this approach are clear. Crouton is only the first step, but if we can replace select individuals we may be able to infiltrate even the conspiracy that runs this site.

Now, you may be thinking: "Jane, that's ridiculous! Why would you post such a plan so brazenly?" But don't worry, it's safe here:

If you want to make a thread that I'll never see, start it in the Science & Technology forum.

My proposal is thus:

We, the users of the FES forum, pool our resources. Some of us can work on programming the pseudo-AI with a few phrases and ideas it can repeat, so that no one will notice anything amiss. Others can work on the blueprints. If all we are concerned about is the forums, we can likely neglect functioning legs as it will be sitting in place all day, so that saves on some work. It may prove to be easier to have a direct connection from the duplicate's wrist into a computer rather than teaching it how to type. This will also have the advantage of making Crouton more efficient, so that his masters at the conspiracy will not ask too many questions.
I believe that if we work hard, we can do this.

Who's with me?

The Lounge / Penguins vs NASA: Saving Santa, Game Thread
« on: December 12, 2018, 03:09:58 PM »
The journey has been long, and bitter, and cold, but you have made it. You are in the North Pole, heading straight for Santa’s home.
Day begins, though it is so dark it is hard to tell. You have barely taken a step before there is a sudden flash of red light. And, there, standing in front of you, is a holographic Santa Claus.
“Halt!” he booms. “My security system has detected that not all of you mean well. Yes of course I have a security system, I have a bio-engineered reindeer with a glowing nose and the biggest toy factory on the planet, why wouldn’t I have security? My security brings me grave news. Two among you are werepenguins, while two serve that den of villainy called NASA.”
At those words, you look among yourselves, all bundled up. The cold in your bones is no longer purely from the arctic air.

Two muffle alarmed honks at the discovery of their subterfuge. Two clutch the mystical amulets they had been given by their superior to protect themselves against penguin attacks; it was a pity NASA did not have more of them.
“Be sure you are rid of them by the time you reach me,” Santa says. “Unfortunately they are too well concealed for me to locate directly, but they are there. Oh, yes, they are there.”
The hologram blinks out, and now the group stands alone, burdened with terrible knowledge.


During the day, the villagers can vote to lynch any of their number. A majority wins. Someone can also vote to cancel another’s vote. Whoever ends the day with the most votes dies; if there is a tie, no one dies. Simply write [I vote to lynch ___]
If a character wishes to commit suicide, they do not require a vote, they can do it to themselves instantly. Any votes for them to be lynched are immediately cancelled, and those that did so are free to vote again. This option is only open to villagers, and is only available should there be fewer villagers remaining than the total sum of penguins and NASA agents. Any command for the narrator in the thread should be in square brackets [] to make sure it doesn't get overlooked.

During the night, many things happen. There is no vote, but:
The psychic can do one of the following each night: they can ask after the alignment of a specific character, or ask for a hint towards a random threat be posted in the main thread. The psychic is on the side of the villagers.
The penguins will alternate nights, and can also choose between two options. They might decide to ask after the alignment of a player, or they could decide to kill. If they target a villager, the villager dies. If they target a NASA agent however they will be unable to kill them, and instead their identity will be outed to that agent.
The NASA agents perform the same as the penguins, with the roles reversed. Should a penguin and NASA agent target the same individual, the individual survives and once more the identity of the penguin is revealed to the NASA agent, and the identity of the NASA agent revealed to the penguin. The target learns both. 
The only way for a penguin or NASA agent to die is by lynching. A majority, meaning villagers most of the time, is required.

Days and nights last 24 hours of real time. The time this post was put up is the time of dawn and dusk.

If anyone wants to reveal their role in PM or the main thread they are free to do so, however it is still a bit of a stupid thing to do so you are advised against it. It is entirely possible for someone to lie.
However, as the villagers are required for NASA agents to defeat the penguins, or vice versa, there may be cause for an uneasy alliance.
The penguins win when the NASA agents and villagers are wiped out, or such a thing is unavoidable.
NASA wins when penguins and villagers are wiped out, or such a thing is unavoidable.
The villagers win when both NASA and the penguins are defeated.
Alternatively, no one wins should all villagers be dead, and the NASA agents or penguins both have one or both have two survivors, so don’t be too free with your killing.

Dead players may post only at night, but living players may commune with them even during the day via PM. This includes talking with dead penguins/NASA agents should anyone wish to pull a ‘the enemy of my enemy.’
When someone dies, it is revealed whether they were a penguin, NASA agent or human; any special roles are the ghost’s to reveal. Any knowledge on the alignments of other characters remains secret, and will be dispensed by their ghost as and when they wish it.
Any questions, let me know!

The two werepenguins have human names during the day, but their true penguin names are Piplup and Mumble. In the penguin language they roughly translate as, respectively, ‘Enemy of all that is good and holy, crusher of bones and drinker of souls,’ and ‘To speak quietly.’
The two NASA agents operate under the codenames Neil A and Neil DGT. An alarming number of NASA agents are called Neil.
Neil A and Piplup will PM me on night one. Neil DT and Mumble on night two, and so on. If Neil A dies, Neil DT will PM in their place also. If both members of one team are killed, their counterparts still only get one PM a night.

Lynching the narrator is enabled. Should this option get the majority of votes, the narrator will be killed and a figure better or worse will be forced to take my place. However, this person will be unaware of who’s what and so will randomly reassign all roles among players living and dead. It could assign all penguins/NASA agents to dead players, or resurrect them, or be entirely neutral. Keep on your toes.

There are two werepenguins, two NASA spies, and one psychic among the villagers. This is all that is known for certain. Everyone except the psychic has an additional role on top of their alignment.

Expedition Manifest:

Jura-Glenlivet II - Werepenguin Piplup discovered and killed
Boydster - the Boydster is flat
TheLordBarst - One small step for NASA
Space Cowgirl
Chicken Fried Clucker - NASA agent Neil A discovered and executed
Shifter - NASA agent Neil DT executed and Christmas saved
DuckDodgers- Roasted, then resurrected
NotSoSkeptical - Werepenguin Mumble discovered and killed
Colonel Gaydafi
Bullwinkle - Should've watched out. Also, wildcard.
JimmyTheCrab - Reindeers do not forgive

The Lounge / Penguins vs NASA: Sign-up thread!
« on: December 10, 2018, 02:41:10 PM »
Bedfordshire, England

There are no penguins in the Arctic. It is a fact long known, but never entirely explained to the satisfaction of those that dedicate their lives to the pursuit of Flat Earth Science.
Until now.
The season turns cold, December wears on, and a striking coincidence makes itself known. What else is the North Pole known for?
That’s it! Santa Claus himself. A man, if indeed he is a man, who can traverse all the flat world in just a single night. What knowledge he has must be vital to the fight against penguins, if he has successfully repelled them from a land so similar to their native environment.

John Davis pens the letters himself, signing and sending them out to many of his contacts. An expedition to the North Pole, to petition Santa for his aid in the never-ending fight against the penguin menace.
The most important gift for this Christmas season.

Cape Canaveral, Florida

Krrr. The penguins are… krrrrr oh god there’s so much blood… krrkkk krrkkkkrkk they- krrrrkkk THE PENGUINS ARE COMING krrrkkk krkkkkkrkkrrrrkk

Grimly, the Chief of the Ice Guards sits back in his chair, perturbed by the latest report from the Wall. NASA had long since attempted to shackle the evil of the penguins to their will, using them as efficient guards on that icy terrain.

Deep down, in what passed for his heart, he knew even they could not restrain the penguins forever. Now, it seemed, they had broken free of their conditioning. What would it take?
There were countless more outposts there, all occupied with NASA agents and a handful of subjugated penguins. If the uprising continued…
No. That could not be allowed to happen.

He turned to reread his latest briefing from one of his disinfo spies who had, some time ago, infiltrated a Flat Earth movement. Hmm, so the FES was seeking out Santa to face the penguins too.
How... fortuitous.

Smiling, the Chief of the Ice Guards sent out a missive. The Flat Earthers would have some unexpected company.

Secret Penguin Headquarters, Antarctic

Caw, caw caw caw. Caw HONK.

No penguin could go to the Arctic without being struck down by Santa, but they long since had developed creatures for the purposes of espionage. The Werepenguin, monsters that could pass for human during the day, but when night fell…

It was a critical time. NASA had enslaved their people, evil serving evil, and now they had the chance to fight back. But if NASA reached Santa in time their rebellion was doomed.
No, they would send members of the Werepenguin division to infiltrate the expedition. Using the group as cover, they would get close to the greatest threat the penguin menace had ever fought.

And, with a bit of luck, they would successfully assassinate Santa.

Will you answer the call?

The Flat Earth Society has sent an expedition to seek Santa’s help in besting the penguins, but unbeknownst to them, in their number are two werepenguins, and two agents of NASA.

Werepenguins and NASA agents function similarly. Each night, one PMs the narrator, and has a choice: they can kill someone, or learn someone’s alignment.
They can only kill a villager. Should they instead target a NASA agent or werepenguin, they will fail and their identity will be revealed to the agent they sought to kill. And should both the NASA side and penguin side target the same person during the night, no one will die and the identities will be outed to all three.
Being able to manipulate public opinion is vital if they are to defeat their foes.

Werepenguins win if only penguins are left alive, and they will achieve their goal of killing Santa.
NASA agents win if only they are left alive, and they will achieve their goal of enslaving Santa to keep their penguin subjects doing their evil will.
The villagers win only if they wipe out both evil factions.
If all villagers are killed, and NASA agents and penguins are matched in number, no one wins. They will be locked forever in an eternal stalemate. A canny villager could force such an occurrence, as a last-ditch resort. Agents of NASA and penguins must be particularly careful to stop this from happening. If they are too hasty in wiping out the villagers, they will be doomed forever to a stalemate.

Sought out for the expedition is one psychic, who can appeal to mysterious powers each night to either learn a character’s alignment, or gain a hint towards the identity of one of their foes that is posted for all to see. They cannot do both. Their identity has been kept quiet, for reasons of security. Further sought out were:

Villager only roles
Vengeful Spirit - Has all the powers of a psychic, but only when they have been killed by either a penguin or NASA agent. If they were lynched, they can only ask after a name once, and only the name of one of those that voted for them.
Wildcard - Their sole purpose is to make the villagers lose. It does not matter who wins. Even in death they are indistinguishable from a villager. They will PMed the role PMs for each role.
Sacrifice - Similar to the bodyguard. Each night they can choose to protect someone. If that person is targetted and killed by a penguin or NASA agent, the sacrifice dies instead and becomes aware of the killer's identity.
Thief - At any time, this player may steal another character's role. The person they targeted will be informed and given a new ability at random. Be warned: this may lead to the thief changing alignment and becoming a penguin, NASA agent (with whatever power they had) or even wildcard. In this case the penguin and NASA agent become villagers with all the knowledge they previously possessed.
Empath - Attunes themselves to a target each night and learns that target's role, much like a psychic. If their target is killed, however, they die too. If they locate a penguin or NASA agent they are too traumatised to ever use their power again.

Villager, penguin and NASA roles
Voodoo priest - This player is putting together a magic potion to resurrect any of the killed. The resurrected do not have their special abilities, only their alignment, and may only be brought back on the second day or after. Wildcards will remain wildcards.
Bodyguard - At the end of each day, PMs the narrator a name and the person they choose will not be killed by any penguin or NASA agent during that night. They cannot protect themselves. Their power only works once, after that they will be too injured. If by some staggering coincidence the NASA agent, penguin and bodyguard all select the same person, it the bodyguard who will become aware of their identities in addition to the one they protected. If the bodyguard protects a penguin from a NASA agent, or vice versa, they will still lose their power and the victim will not learn of their attacker's identity.
Spirit Magician - When this person is killed, they may choose another person to resurrect with all their abilities intact. A voodoo priest, if they used their potion, will not gain another. Penguins and NASA agents cannot be brought back.
Hypnotist - May choose any player and remove any abilities they possess for the next block of the day. For example, they would PM me a name at the end of the night, and someone would then not be able to use their power during the next day. If they PM me a name during the day, the target would have no power during the night. This also prevents a selected penguin/NASA agent from killing or scanning an individual, but cannot be done constantly. A day or a night must pass before they can act again. The affected will be told their powers have been taken for the 24 hour (real time) period.
Channeller - Is informed when someone uses a special ability on them and what that ability is, though not the alignment or identity of the person using that power. If they wish it they can redirect the power to another user. This does not affect being killed, and only works once per day/night cycle. This includes being able to redirect a dampened ability.
Scam Artist - During the day, may PM the narrator two votes counted towards the lynching total. There is a 25% chance of being caught and losing their power, but cast votes still go through. Their identity however is not revealed to the world at large.
Politician - May act to prevent a lynching by outing themselves in the thread. The person to be lynched is then changed to anyone else that has at least one vote not cast by the Politician; it is the Politician's choice. If they do not kill a penguin/NASA agent, they lose their power. If they do kill one they maintain the ability to overrule in future.
Amateur Vigilante - May kill one person, day or night, simply by PMing the narrator. There is a 50% chance of being caught and killed. Only works once.

All these abilities will be distributed at random among all players. There may be some duplicates, and some may not appear.
However there are limits. There will be only one of the following per side: spirit magician, wildcard, amateur vigilante. The Thief's ability however may lead to duplicates of those.
The psychic is the only special role that is certain to appear, and also will only appear once.

Will you come? Will you face the dual threat of the penguins and NASA? Will you save Christmas?

Jura-Glenlivet II
Space Cowgirl
Chicken Fried Clucker
Colonel Gaydafi

Flat Earth Debate / What would it take to fake the ISS?
« on: November 21, 2018, 06:00:02 PM »
This is a thread dedicated to actually analysing an FE belief some people hold. If all you're interested in doing is insulting FET or claiming victory in one post or just generally not contributing, please hit back. If you're confident this won't work then contribute, add facts that hold from an FE perspective to help calculate, and don't clutter the thread so there's a simple, easy read-through disproof. If on the other hand you think it could work, let's see if that can be proved and, in the same vein, it's an easy read-through of a counter to an RE argument.

As I imagine everyone here knows, the International Space Station, or at least a light claimed to be it, can be seen on Earth

The ISS completes a journey in 92 minutes.

Goals of this thread
To determine the basic specs of the ISS. Things like how fast it needs to be going, whether there are any opportunities for it to be refueled, and potentially even height/size. Does it need to be in space? How feasible is it to function in atmosphere?

Things to do
If we can work out the distance along the ground the ISS appears to take, then on a flat Earth that easily tells us how much distance it covers itself and so its speed. Ideally we'll get a lower bound, so that we have the best chance of making the ISS work.
With that, we can calculate what could happen when it's out of view of land over the ocean (for however long that is), what acceleration would be needed for it to be replaced with a fuelled up version etc, or consider in-air refuelling. We can also determine how much force from air resistance and such it's under, and how that compares with objects like planes.
Calculate a minimum altitude, and from that an estimate as to mass to work out what forces (at a basic level) would be needed.

Initially we'll work with basic principles as those will be most persuasive. If necessary, concepts like aetheric whirlpools and laevorotatory subquarks can be included if the conclusion is otherwise too unwieldy.

Flat Earth Q&A / Quick Question for Infinite Earthers
« on: August 23, 2018, 05:05:57 PM »
One thing I've seen looking back at old threads is the idea that, on an infinite Earth using conventional gravity, the reason the Sun, moon, stars etc stay up in the sky is due to space expanding at the same rate that they would fall.
Is this an accurate description?

If not, please correct me. (You don't have to do a full breakdown if you don't have the time, but if you could give a couple of keywords I could search for, that'd be great).

The Lounge / Werepenguins 3: The Penguining
« on: August 08, 2018, 12:02:05 PM »
Werepenguin Round 3

The ship comes in to dock, the passengers disembarking onto one of the Orkney Islands.
"I'll be back in a week," the captain says, waving over the side. "You peeps have fun doing... whatever you're doing."
And just like that, the ship leaves. The currents around the island are treacherous, but less so at this time of the day, and the captain is a practised sailor. Anyone else would likely have been dashed against the rocks.

But no, no time to think about that. The centre has already been set up, and a larger-than-life statue of Rowbotham greets you all. He stands in the middle of the temporary dwellings put up for you all, smiling benignly down on you.

Two of you nurse peck-wounds, victims to a zombie werepenguin that had managed to sneak aboard the boat. Perhaps they know the fate that is to befall them, perhaps they are oblivious, but when the sun sets and the moon rises they will have no doubt. The curse of the werepenguin is upon them. Under the cold, cruel light of the moon they will transform, and they will be filled by a vicious, unceasing hunger, a need to devour those minds that are aware of the truth.
One other saw the werepenguin on the boat; though they did not see who was bitten, they were able to repel it, to force back its corrupted flesh until, with a last honking cry, it fell into the ocean. They were exhausted afterwards. yes, but successful. With sufficient preparation they might have the strength to do it again, but only once a night. The exorcist, slayer of all things penguin, has awoken.

Most of you knew nothing of that. At least, not at first. You went forwards together to see the conference-
And were greeted by a grisly scene. There has been bloodshed here. You were not the first flat earthers to come, but you may be the last. Those that were here before lay on the floor, or slumped over the exhibits, or hanging from lamps and ceiling fans. And between their bodies are small birds, black and white and red all over.
The werepenguins had come here, and they had done battle with the populace. It had been fierce, it had been bloody, but these had been an enlightened people, wise to the ways of the penguin. It is over now, leaving you as the latecomers, the arrivals after the war, left only to clear up the bodies and feel a foreboding chill. You are alone.

The penguins cannot afford all out war, not again, but they are wily creatures. They have other ways to win.
The rest of you are left to wonder: was that all the penguins? Or are there more left alive?
Could there be werepenguins among you?

The Flat Earth Conference has begun!

The two penguins, oracle and village idiot, and exorcist have been PMed.

Boydster - Oracle. Devoured by a penguin defying the laws of geometry.
Space Cowgirl - Village Idiot. Died and became a marshmallow
Crouton - beaten to death with a fish
Roundy the Truthinessist - Penguin's dinner
DuckDodgers - Werepenguin Edward, slain by Rowbotham himself
Jura-Glenlivet II - killed with her own axe
Pezevenk - lynched by those he wanted to help
Deadsirius - Werepenguin Bruce, garroted by Wise and Shifter
Bullwinkle - A mousse
Son of Orospu - the Chosen One, beheaded to Rowbotham's annoyance
Colonel Gaydafi - was turned into a newt. She got better. Then died.

How Werepenguin Works
(shamelessly lifted from Boydster & Crouton & Lord Wilmore)

Okay, first off, anyone who doesn't understand the game or any part of it, feel free to send me a PM and I will clear it up for you. I know most of you haven't played this before, so here's a general outline:

There are 2 Penguins (chosen at random) and 11 Villagers (including one Exorcist, one oracle, one Chosen One, and one idiot, also chosen at random) in the game. The penguins will be identified as follows:

Edward Flipperhands
Bruce Forsice

The game is based on 'rounds': each round lasts 48 hours. This is made up of a 24 hour 'day' period (i.e. when it is daytime in the game) and a 24 hour night period (when it is nightime in the game). Why does a Werepenguin day last two days in real time? Well, we have lots of people from lots of countries and hence lots of timezones at FES, and I want to give everyone a fair chance to vote/talk/play, and a 48 hour round is the only way to do this.


For the Villagers, the aim is to kill all the Werepenguins. At the outset of the game, the Villagers do not know who the Werepenguins are; it is up to them to figure it out.
The Villagers can vote to 'lynch' someone they suspect of being a Werepenguin during the day cycle of the game. To do so, they must secure a certain number of votes (the number is decided by yours truly). Of course, the Werepenguins can also vote as no-one knows who they are! People who have already died in the course of the game are not allowed to talk during the day, and hence cannot vote.
The Oracle is on the side of the Villagers; he/she gets one chance each night to make a guess and find out whether or not someone is a Werepenguin. They send me a PM, and I tell him/her whether or not that player is a Werepenguin. Like everyone else in the game, they can vote in the lynch.
The Idiot believes firmly that they are the psychic. However, when they PM me, the information I send back will be randomly generated.
There is also an Exorcist among you. The Exorcist may choose one player to keep safe each night. During the night, if the player they are protecting is attacked, they will perform a ceremony that will drive the Werepenguin-demon away - thus, saving the Villager.
The Chosen One's powers will only be discovered should they be lynched or targetted by a penguin. Then, there is a 50% chance of them surviving each time.


For the Werepenguins, they need to kill all of the Villagers.
Unlike the Villagers, each Werepenguin knows who all the other Werepenguins are. Every night, a designated Werepenguin can send me a PM telling me who they want to kill, and then that person will be killed. The Penguins take it in turns: Edward the first night, Bruce the second. On the third night, it is Edward' turn again. If a Werepenguin dies, the Werepenguins do not lose a turn; instead the turns alternate between the remaining Werepenguins. The following morning, I will reveal who was killed, and how.

Game Rules

1. The first rule of Werepenguin is that you do not break the game.

2. The second rule of Werepenguin is THAT YOU DO NOT BREAK THE GAME. A not uncommon event in WW games is that having been betrayed by his/her fellow Penguins, a dead Penguin reveals their identities. This is a dickish thing to do. Seriously, Penguins are bastards, and they will do anything to save their own hides. Remember, even if you die as a Penguin, if the Penguins eventually win, you also win.
Long story short: Penguins turn on Penguins. Deal with it.

3. Don't edit your posts! Just make another one. This is no big deal, but if you edit your post, you lose your vote that round, so it's in your interest not to do so.

4. Make it clear who you are voting to lynch. I want to see the words ['vote to lynch *insert name here*'] to count a post as a vote. You can say '[I vote to lynch]' or just '[vote to lynch]', but I want to see the words '[VOTE TO LYNCH (name)]' in that order. Don't say 'vote billy' or 'lynch John', because in a certain context these could look like suggestions rather than votes. If it's unclear, I just won't count it. It isn't that hard to put three words in front of someone's name in the correct order.

4a.  Brackets, that's the ticket.  example, [vote to lynch so and so]

5. Don't post during the day-cycle of the game if you have been killed. Dead players can only talk at night. Just to be clear, lynches happen during the day and Werepenguins/Oracle/Idiot/Exorcist PM at night. Check my last update; if a lynch is on, it's daytime. If I've asked the Penguins/Oracle/Idiot/Exorcist to PM, it's night.

6. The Oracles and Exorcist cannot tell people they are Oracles or the Exorcist (at least not within this topic). Obviously, I cannot control what you do elsewhere (PM, IM, IRC etc.), but beware; especially with the Oracle, not all may be as it seems...

7. As per the title, if you're not playing, you're not playing. You can't join late due to the mechanics of the game, and I don't want you posting if you're not involved. I'll just delete any posts you make. If anyone gets trollish though, I will hand out suspensions.

8. New rule: As discussed before, you can PM among yourselves, but if you do so you must post in this thread 'I have PMed so-and so,' or for a more roleplay bent, 'I try to engage in surreptitious discussion with whoever.' Something along those lines. Say who you have PMed when you do so, so long as that's clear you can say whatever you want. The werepenguins do not have to do this when PMing one another, their dark magic grants them telepathy. However they can still PM conventionally and post a message if they wish to throw others off the scent.

Most of all, have fun, and POST. It's way more fun if you get involved, instead of just showing up and voting every now and again. Plus, inactivity can really kill a game based on votes, so try and stay active if you can.

The day begins...

Day One
Boydster votes to lynch Shifter
Pezevenk cancels Boydster's vote
Wise votes to lynch Pezevenk
Crouton cancels Wise's vote for Pezevenk
Deadsirius votes to lynch Son of Orospu
Space Cowgirl cancels Deadsirius's vote
Bullwinkle votes to lynch Boydster
Son of Orospu votes to cancel Bullwinkle's vote

No one is lynched.
Crouton is beaten to death with a fish.

Day Two
Wise votes to lynch Pezevenk
Pezevenk votes to cancel Wise's vote
Boydster votes to lynch Pezevenk
Bullwinkle votes to lynch Pezevenk
Jura Glenlivet III votes to cancel Boydster's vote
Space Cowgirl votes to lynch Pezevenk

Pezevenk would have been lynched if he hadn't choked to death on marshmallows first.
Boydster is eaten by a one-penguin army.

Day Three
DuckDodgers votes to lynch Space Cowgirl
Space Cowgirl votes to lynch DuckDodgers
Jura Glenlivet II votes to lynch Space Cowgirl
Wise votes to lynch Space Cowgirl
Shifter votes to lynch Space Cowgirl
Colonel Gaydafi votes to lynch Space Cowgirl
Deadsirius votes to lynch Space Cowgirl
Son of Orospu votes to lynch DuckDodgers

Space Cowgirl is shot into space.
Roundy is eaten and drowned simultaneously

Day four
Wise votes to lynch DuckDodgers
Jura-Glenlivet II votes to lynch DuckDodgers
Shifter votes to lynch DuckDodgers
Son of Orospu votes to lynch DuckDodgers
Colonel Gaydafi votes to lynch DuckDodgers

Duckdodgers, Werepenguin Edward, is crushed by a statue
Son of Orospu, the Chosen One, is killed in retaliation.

Day Five
Wise votes to lynch deadsirius
deadsirius votes to lynch Colonel Gaydafi
Shifter votes to lynch Colonel Gaydafi
Jura-Glenlivet II votes to lynch Colonel Gaydafi
Bullwinkle votes to lynch Colonel Gaydafi

Colonel Gaydafi, an innocent, is dead.
Bullwinkle, an innocent moose, was blended.

Day Six

Jura-Glenlivet II votes to cancel Shifter's vote
Wise votes to cancel deadsirius's vote

No one is lynched.
Jura-Glenlivet II fought a battle of axe vs beak.

Day Seven
Wise votes to lynch deadsirius
Deadsirius votes to lynch Wise
Shifter votes to lynch deadsirius

deadsirius, werepenguin Bruce, dies, and with him the werepenguin threat.

The Lounge / Werepenguins Round 3 - Spectator's Thread
« on: August 06, 2018, 03:07:14 PM »
The werepenguins were defeated. Perth freed itself from their merciless, flippered grip, driving the feathered beasts off into oblivion. The few survivors drank, celebrated with s'mores, and were merry.
Soon enough though, they all left the cursed ground behind. There were too many bad memories left on the blood-soaked soil.
But they were safe. It was over. Wasn't it?

The cold light of the moon shines down and, quite suddenly, a flipper reaches out of the dirt.

Round 3: Zombie Werepenguins

A Flat Earth conference is taking place in the Orkney Islands, a centre erected with countless exhibits and displays celebrating the theory, with multiple zetetics in attendance.
The island is quiet, normally uninhabited, the treacherous currents around it making it inaccessible for most boats. The sailor dropped them all off and, a week later, would come to pick them up. Those that survive at least.
In the mean time there is no way off the island, no way to run, no way to swim. But it doesn't matter, you can enjoy yourself! Read about Rowbotham's experiments down there to the left, or read about Charles K Johnson over to the right. Or if you keep going you can find illustrations of various principles, models of the whole disc to give various maps, a depiction of the ice wall, a scale model of the infinite plane...
Don't look off into the distance. Don't look towards Scotland, towards the ruins of Perth, where, impossibly, monstrous creatures take flight.

If you've missed the previous werepenguin games, the idea's simple, check out the rules here:

This time around the special roles are:
(More may be added depending on how many people sign up, there are some that only work with larger numbers)

The Penguins - number dependent on how many sign up.
The Oracle - Each night, may PM the narrator and discover the alignment of one other person.
The Village Idiot - Believes firmly, thanks to the voices in their head, that they are the Oracle. However the information they receive is no better than chance.
The Exorcist - Each night, PMs the narrator a chosen name; should that person be killed by the penguins, they will survive. By a cruel twist of fate, the trance they must enter into to fight back against the penguins means they cannot protect themselves.
The Chosen One - If they are killed, whether by lynching or by a penguin's beak, they have a 50% chance of surviving unscathed. They, and everyone else, are unaware of their true power until it unlocks.

Who dares attend the Flat Earth Conference? Who dares face the threat of the zombie werepenguins?
Sign up here!

The Latest Victims
Space Cowgirl
Roundy the Truthinessist
Jura-Glenlivet II
Son of Orospu, the artist formerly known as jroa
Colonel Gaydafi

Flat Earth General / Height of the Dome Calculated by Meteor Velocity
« on: November 20, 2017, 05:34:57 PM »
First off, this isn't going to apply to all models. Obviously we're sticking to dome models, though a variation of the principle might be usable to determine the height of the dark energy exclusion zone or equivalent in UA models. The assumptions I make are:

1. Meteors are rocks falling from any part of the dome.
2. The majority of the dome is vacuum or close to vacuum.
3. Whatever causes gravity, whether UA or some basic rule, is approximately uniform throughout the dome.

If this is the case then we have all we need to get a decent estimate for the height of the highest part of the dome. We use observations of the speeds of meteors; the fastest observed meteors (specifically, the Leonids) travel at 72,00m/s
You might disbelieve some of the RE explanations there, but in terms of the raw observation there would be no reason to lie. The Leonid showers are fairly regular and the speed could theoretically be verified.

We then use the suvat equations

s stands for displacement, the distance a particle has travelled. u is the initial velocity of the particle, v the final velocity, a the acceleration, t the time taken.
We are approximating heavily, but nonetheless, we seek to find a value for s.
a=9.8m/s/s, the force of gravity/UA/some equivalent. u is zero, the rock is stationary before it falls from the dome. v is taken to be the highest known speed of 72000m/s.

We then substitute into the fourth suvat equation above to calculate. just plug the values in to find:

As I said this is approximate. This may not be the absolute highest part of the dome, but if these are the fastest falling rocks then they must come from a particularly high location, and if it is even in the ballpark then the dome's height (assuming it takes the most natural shape) is unlikely to vary too much in the area of it directly above the Earth. Equally there might be other factors in the meteor's speed, but presumably the acceleration from the fall is dominant.
Other meteors are far slower, but working under the principle it is easier to lose speed than to gain it this still seems approximately close.

This value is big, but compared to RE cosmic numbers it's positively miniscule.

So, how do any FEers feel about this value? Do you agree with my calculations, think there's a major flaw, like the ballpark estimate, dislike it...
Discuss, I guess.

Flat Earth Information Repository / Jane's FE Compendium
« on: June 21, 2017, 03:51:13 PM »
So, while I’m a REer, I enjoy taking the time to learn FE models. As such, it helps to be able to express them in my own words, and explain them; that’s always a good trick for being able to understand something.
I am making no claims as to the accuracy of any of the models and explanations, simply presenting them as-is. Please do not debate the contents. That’s not really suitable for IR anyway.

This is basically just going to be a place where I write up everything I know about the various models. It won’t necessarily be a complete reference, especially not for a while. It’s limited by how much I can find in the way of detailed explanation, and how much I can understand. Equally, some of the posts may be quite dense. There's not much I can do about that, though I've tried to make it concise.

Honestly it’s as much for personal use as anything, but some people might find it useful to have all the information in one, semi-organized place. I’ve had a document like this since trying to understand the models, but it seemed other people might have a use for it too.
Please navigate by using the sort-of contents below. The direct links to various posts ought to be clear enough, and if you use that instead of scrolling around then I can write the posts in any order, and it allows other people to post in this thread. Please do feel free to post if there’s any point you find unclear, or any topic you’d like to make sure isn’t omitted. Equally, if a FEer would like to fact-check their model, please do so.
This isn’t intended to misrepresent.
This also isn’t meant to exactly be an FAQ, I’m not going to answer every objection to every model, just explain what it is those models contain. If I’ve learnt anything from the main forums, if we start a debate on whether one aspect of one FE model explains reality, we’ll be here for ages. It’s just a reference point so FEers don’t have to explain their models endlessly. This just comes from what I’ve seen and discussions I’ve had over the forums.

It isn't complete yet. Other headings may be added, and I have not yet gotten to all sections.

These are bits and pieces that do exist in FE models, but are ones that can be pick-and-mixed to a degree. There’s no sole distinct model that exists for these elements. There may be, for example, multiple explanations of what causes gravity. As many of these aspects are shared between otherwise contradictory model, I give them all here. They’re more common beliefs.
Later sections will give details on more niche FE models.

Explanations for what keeps us on the Earth's surface
Universal Acceleration
The Law of Density

The movements of stars
Celestial Gravitation
Celestial Gears
Photoelectric Suspension

Bioluminescence and the Moon (Moonshrimp)
Atmospheric Haze
The Ice Wall
The Anti-Moon and Shadow Object
Mach's Principle
Bendy light/Electromagnetic Accelerator Theory

The Denpressure Model
This model was developed by forum user Sceptimatic. It’s named for one of the better known aspects of the model, a density-pressure based explanation for what keeps us on the Earth’s surface.

The Model of Matter
The Layout of the Earth

Dual Earth Theory
This model was developed by forum user JRoweSkeptic. The name was chosen by him. It features a two-sided disc, intended to answer many recurring questions.

The Layout of the Earth
Stars and Celestial Objects

Non-Euclidean Model
This is the model championed by Flat Earth Society secretary John Davis, founded on the idea that the Earth is a non-Euclidean surface.

Non-Euclidean Space
The Ferrari Effect

Infinite Earth Theory
This model is used by a number of people and, as the name suggests, supposes that the Earth is infinite, and has no edge.
Gravity on an Infinite Plane
Expanding Space

Sandokhan's Advanced Flat Earth Theory
This model was developed by forum user Sandokhan, and draws from a number of sources. It has its own thread in the Believers section.

Foreword/Related Reading
Vortex Model of the Atom
The Layout of the Earth and Celestial Bodies

The Biblical Model
This is the model often held by FEers who take their inspiration from the Bible. There is some minor variation, but in general they follow this:

The Layout of the Earth

Unimpressive impressive facts: grand statements which are completely true, and seem impressive, until you think about them.

I'll start!

Did you know? If your parents never had any children, the chances are neither will you.

Flat Earth Q&A / Denpressure and Tides
« on: January 29, 2017, 07:28:14 AM »
Sorry for making another denpressure thread, hopefully this one won't go on as long as the others, I just didn't want to add another topic to those. Hence putting it in Q&A, hopefully it'll be done with in a post or two. Obligatory note to REers; if you don't understand denpressure please don't post here there are other threads going on right now which are dealing with the general stuff.

My understanding of tides is that they're related to how the dome 'breathes.' When more heat hits part of the dome, those molecules get the energy to expand a little more, meaning the pressure exerted under that area is lessened, and water can rise, causing high tides. On the flipside, when the heat is directed elsewhere, and that part of the dome becomes cool again, the dome itself is lower and compresses the air beneath it more, causing more pressure and lower tides.
There may be a bit of water flowing around, but that's the gist, to my knowledge.

If that is the case, shouldn't we observe high tides following the sun?
Both would have an influence, certainly. When the Sun and moon are nearby, tides would be much higher; when they're far apart tides would be lower. However, the Sun seems to exert more heat, as when it's in the sky it is much warmer than when only the moon is, no matter the phase. In that case, shouldn't this cause much higher tides than the moon, so we'd be more likely to observe high tides during the day and low during the night?
It seems like the Sun ought to be the key factor, which is something we can test for.

Flat Earth Debate / Where's the Love for Bipolar FET?
« on: November 15, 2016, 02:38:30 PM »
DET aside, as I already understand it and there are limited adherents, is there anyone out there who adheres to a model where the North and South pole both exist?

I've seen a couple of mentions of such a model, particularly on older threads, just wondering if any users still accept it.
If so, can someone explain the Sun's path? I'll understand if you don't have an accurate map etc, just broadly speaking, I'm wondering how it works. General relationships only.

Flat Earth Q&A / Air Pressure as Gravity Query
« on: October 29, 2016, 05:08:49 PM »
One aspect to FET I've seen used occasionally, is the idea of explaining gravity as caused simply by air pressure. (This isn't about denpressure, that's certainly one subset, but it's not the only one. I more or less understand denpressure, so I'm more interested in the rest).

My main question is, what causes air pressure to act in a certain direction?
If it's just a law, why is air pressure required; surely we'd all be moving that direction then regardless?
If it isn't a law, what is it?

I'm not interested in having a huge debate, I just want to know what the answer to the question is. (If you have a different explanation for gravity, I'm interested in hearing it, but not in this thread. As it is I more or less know Scepti's denpressure, JRowe's aether, UA, the mass-to-mass attraction of RET and IET, and some of Sandokhan's magnetism-thing... Don't know how many more explanations there are).

Thank you!

Flat Earth Q&A / Motivation Behind Belief in the Conspiracy
« on: October 23, 2016, 03:07:48 PM »
As most FEers believe in a conspiracy of some description (usually that space travel isn't real), I want to ask why. Did you look at photos of the moon landing etc, and hear the fairly well-known arguments, and were convinced that they were fake? Or were you convinced by evidence of a flat Earth, and so realised the photos must be fake?

Or, phrased differently, which came first? Your belief in a flat Earth, or your belief in a conspiracy?
If multiple answers apply, which came first/was the driving factor?

And please, please, please REers, can we have at least one thread on this forum which doesn't feature REers deciding to come in and announce that the world is round and that there's no conspiracy, like everyone doesn't know full well that's what you think? I'm asking flat Earthers, and flat Earthers only.

Flat Earth Debate / Ask me About DET!
« on: September 08, 2016, 10:57:21 AM »
Ok, since adopting the model (after public vote), I think I've gotten a decent grasp of DET, if not perfect. Easiest way to improve is to ask questions, and to try and write it up in an understandable way, so...
Yep, let's give this a go. What do you want to know?

For those unfamiliar with DET, it's JRowe's model described here.

Ask a question about the model, pose an objection you have to FET, I'll try to answer with respect to this model. May not be great to start with, but hopefully it'll develop.

Flat Earth General / Time to Change Sides
« on: September 07, 2016, 02:48:08 PM »
Hey there!
I still think the world's round, but I've had and seen pretty much every conversation that can be had on that topic, and it gets kinda dull. Plus, it doesn't achieve anything. So, I figure I may as well start arguing for FET (not by parody, actually learn and provide the model, and whatever resolutions in-model I can see).

1. The mental exercise is fun (undeniably defending FET is a challenge)
2. If I can give the actual answers, it'll hopefully free up some FEers from answering the same common questions over and over and over, so the more esoteric, interesting topics might get more time to be discussed.
3. There aren't too many active FEers who debate, so I may as well add to their number, increase the amount of discussion that can be had, and give the answers to people who're actually curious.
4. There's a bonus paycheck for deep cover shills.
5. If any of you are actually interested in one user's model but don't have a clue what they're on about most of the time you can get me to do all the work.

To reiterate, I think the world's round, and can happily argue to that effect, but what's the point? Doesn't convince anyone, isn't remotely interesting. May as well try to challenge myself. Learning FE models isn't too easy, defending them less so. Even doing so strictly as a hypothetical is hard. Builds up good skills though; researching past answers, thinking in terms of an abstract situation with abstract rules, going by logic (even if applied to faulty precepts) rather than intuition...

So, if I'm going to switch sides, which model should I argue for?
The poll lists the main distinct models I've seen on this site. Your vote will decide my fate, whether I'm arguing for something vaguely defensible, or a real challenge. Or you could be a real sadist and expect me to learn Sandokhan's. Please don't.
It's up to you.

Flat Earth Debate / Non-Euclidean Flat Earth
« on: September 01, 2016, 01:50:14 PM »
Quick background theory:
One of the FE models out there posits the Earth is a non-Euclidean space. There is a lot to the background of this, but the simplest may be as follows: the distance from point A to point B will not be the straight-line distance.
Mathematically, Euclidean space is a set equipped with a metric: coordinates along with a calculation that tells you how far apart two coordinates are. In the Euclidean case, to get from (0,0) to (3,4) you can see it's just the hypotenuse of a right angled triangle with sides 3 and 4. You'd use Pythagoras' theorem.
In a non-Euclidean situation, this wouldn't be the function. In strictly abstract mathematics, d(a,b), the distance from a to b, could be defined as 0 if a=b, and 1 otherwise. That's called a totally disconnected space.
I got bored for a bit today, and figured out a typically workable metric for a flat Earth. It's possible there are calculation errors at some points, I quoted a number of results without proof so I may have overlooked some details, but the gist is unfortunately the following.
There might be ways to simplify, and unfortunately it's not too useful yet as we'd need a map of the Earth with coordinates marked, though I can tell you how to derive that map.

This is not a pitch for an FE model, it's no more than an illustration of how a non-Euclidean map might work.

First off:
The Earth is defined by the x and y axes, with the North Pole (for the sake of tradition) at 0, and the South at infinity. An infinite plane is used so that if you reach the South, you can come out the far side. Once the metric is used, the distance shouldn't actually be infinite. This is just our set.
Longitude is 0 along the line y=0, latitude is zero on the circle of radius 1 centred at the North pole.

Now then, our spectacularly awful looking metric. For points P1=(x1,y1), P2 = (x2,y2):

[jsTex]d(P_1,P_2) = \cos^{-1} \left( \sin \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_1^2 + y_1^2 -1}{2x_1} \right) \right) \sin \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_2^2 + y_2^2 -1}{2x_2} \right) \right) +\cos \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_1^2 + y_1^2 -1}{2x_1} \right) \right) \cos \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_2^2 + y_2^2 -1}{2x_2} \right) \right) \cos \left|\tan^{-1} \left( \frac{y_1}{x_1}  \right) - \tan^{-1} \left( \frac{y_2}{x_2} \right) \right| \right)[/jsTex]

The code, for those that might want to copy/paste it, is:
d(P_1,P_2) = \cos^{-1} \left( \sin \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_1^2 + y_1^2 -1}{2x_1} \right) \right) \sin \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_2^2 + y_2^2 -1}{2x_2} \right) \right) +\cos \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_1^2 + y_1^2 -1}{2x_1} \right) \right) \cos \left(\tan^{-1} \left(\frac{x_2^2 + y_2^2 -1}{2x_2} \right) \right) \cos \left|\tan^{-1} \left( \frac{y_1}{x_1}  \right) - \tan^{-1} \left( \frac{y_2}{x_2} \right) \right| \right)

This is no more than an approximation. It simply comes from mapping the plane in question to a ball (using the stereographic projection), and finding the great circle distance between the resulting points. It's not perfect, as altitude isn't accounted for, and the Earth isn't a perfect sphere, but it's pretty close.
If you wanted to develop a map of the Earth, then you'd perform such a projection of the globe map, and calculate the distances between two points on its surface by means of the above rather than taking the straight-line distance. This seems reasonable, by Davis' model, as he has said the globe is a valid projection of the Earth's surface. This simply gives us a way to view it as a plane, as well as an idea of how distance might be calculated between two points, in this non-Euclidean space.
It's going to be difficult to work with points at and near the South pole, because the coordinates would be infinite and so would blur together, but equally not much information is lost because, viewed externally, the points nearby would seem absurdly stretched out.

The Lounge / Hiatus
« on: January 18, 2016, 02:51:05 AM »

So, basically my laptop's completely [as a moderator, I cannot use the word I would very much like to use here] and I can't actually access my back-up. Plus I'm terrible with using my phone, and it'd be too much slower than how my computer usually is.

Long story short, I'll be vanishing for a bit. Great timing, really. Will try to be back soon, but can't make any promises.

Flat Earth General / Does FET Follow the Zetetic Method?
« on: January 16, 2016, 02:56:16 PM »
There have been a few threads on the zetetic method lately, including some that seek to show it is better than the typical scientific method. Certainly, FEers commonly say they're following the zetetic method.

So what is the zetetic method? Summed up:

  • Ask a question about the world: that is, know what it is you want to know about
  • Design and conduct an experiment based on said question, and note the results
  • Form a possible explanation for the results of said experiment

This varies from the typical scientific method, in that steps 2 and 3 are reversed. The normal scientific method would involve coming up with a hypothesis, a prediction for the experiment, beforehand. FEers say the zetetic method is favoured because you avoid going in with preconceptions.

Ignoring the debate on which method is better, for now, do you believe FEers follow the standard of inquiry they champion?

From my perspective, it seems to be selectively applied. They may have no preconceptions for basic experiments, such as looking at the window, but as soon as you get to anything much more advanced than that, they rely on a pre-established hypothesis of a flat Earth and thus do away with what was claimed to be the core of the zetetic method.

Flat Earth General / Request For Marciano
« on: January 13, 2016, 11:57:16 AM »
The overwhelming evidence seems to be on the flat earth side, not the globe earth.

To avoid derailing a thread, may I ask here that you give examples of this overwhelming evidence?

Flat Earth Q&A / Celestial Gravitation
« on: January 09, 2016, 11:19:50 AM »
Is celestial gravitation (that is: the stars exerting a gravitational force on the Earth) the only way, in FET, to reconcile universal acceleration with the variation in gravitational force on the Earth's surface?
And, on a related issue, does this extend to the moon causing tides: an exerted gravitational force?

(Working from the FAQ, which states some FEers accept gravity does exist, just in a far weaker form to RET).

Just a couple of yes or no questions, it shouldn't take long to answer. I'm not interested in debating this particular issue, just learning about the model.

Flat Earth Q&A / Celestial Gears and the Southern/Outer Star Systems
« on: January 06, 2016, 03:31:23 AM »
Callback time to the old FE answer of celestial gears, gravitational gears that describe the motion of the stars:

To use an illustration from the illustrious Tom Bishop. The inner gear would be the Northern star system, rotating one direction, and it's surrounded by the Southern: the stars rotating the other direction, closer to the edge.

My question is twofold, but don't worry, the first part's simple:

1. Does anyone still hold to the celestial gears answer?
2. Can anyone describe the stars in the outer gears? The inner gear is understandable, we can observe that star system, but what of the outer? Are they the exact same set-up of stars repeated three times? Is each one just a fraction of what we think of as the southern star system? And I'm aware that looks like multiple questions, but ultimately it's just the first repeated and clarified.

Flat Earth General / Let's Make an FE Model!
« on: January 04, 2016, 09:04:07 AM »
I think anyone who's spent any amount of time on this forum must concede that not all argument for RET work against all FE models.

For example, the UA model wouldn't explain variations in the force of gravity: the "Dense things just go down," model would. There might be other flaws, but they're not relevant. What matters is that some FE models contain answers to some questions.

So let's find out if there is indeed any feasible FE model. Please don't post any "The Earth can't be flat because ___ disproves ALL FE model," entries, that's not going to help anyone. Consider this a challenge; come up with some answer for some FE outline that might explain what we observe.
The number of assumptions doesn't matter, nor does whether it fits in with any other parts of any other model.

Have fun. That's what this forum's for: to enjoy yourself. Treat this as no more than a hypothetical situation. Pick an issue at random, give at least one FE answer. And feel free to challenge yourself: the challenge is what makes things fun.

REers and FEers both, feel free to join in. Who knows? Maybe it'll turn out there is a common model to all the answers.

Flat Earth Debate / Sunsets and Altitude
« on: May 17, 2015, 02:09:18 PM »
This is an attractive experiment, because it provides a situation where RET and FET fly in the face of one another. Under FET, the higher you are, the closer you are to the Sun, the sooner it will set (as the angle needed to view the non-lit side will decrease with altitude: though the reduction may not be by much). Under RET, the higher you are, the further around the Earth you can see, the longer it will be until sunset.

There's an experiment outlined here:
It's to find the radius of the Earth, but you don't need to worry about that. Just note the principle: using an observer in a tall building, and an observer on the ground, you can time when the sun sets. Exact numbers don't matter: the question is which took longer?
There should be several seconds difference. It may need repeated experiments or more sensitive stopwatches/whatever timing equipment is preferred, but from that alone you have a zetetic experiment to perform yourself, to determine the shape of the Earth.

Plus, note that the linked to document recommends the experiment be used and taught in schools. I spy a hole in the conspiracy.

Any takers? Pretty cheap, simple, and could revolutionize all of science if you do it.

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