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Topics - jimster

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1
Flat Earth General / Q, Antarctica, and FE
« on: July 05, 2021, 11:36:46 AM »
Given the importance of Antarctica to FE, the NASA ice patrol, the dome lands there, no one can go there, or ??? I would like to inform/ask questions re Q info that I have learned from youtube videos from Q people.

The video said there were tunnels in Antarctica and 70 bases, including a base for the "dark fleet", one for the reptile overlords, and many German bases containing "lots of nazis". Interesting, FE says no one there to explain, while Q uses Antarctica as a secret base for everything they can't explain. Meanwhile, there are researchers, weather stations, and tourist from the real world community. Three different realities, and none of us can personally check.

My question is whether this is a failure of the nasa ice wall patrol, or are they part of the same thing?

Seems like Q believers would be likely to consider FE and vice versa. Both groups would be stronger with each other, has FE considered merging with Q? FE has a well developed technique for avoiding answers and explaining seemingly impossible things, seems like that would be useful to Q. Q has way more people than FE. I think it would be a simple thing to put FE into the Q echo chamber, and suddenly Q people would hear from multiple sources that the earth is flat. Their standard of truth is hearing something from several Q people.

Any FE want to approach the Q people about a cross-marketing agreement?

2
Flat Earth Debate / FE map with scale
« on: July 03, 2021, 07:03:46 PM »
I need a FE map with scale. Does anyone have one? If we have no scale, we can't determine if the map is accurate.

Anyone?

3
Is there anyone here who used to think that global warming was a lie but now sees that 116 degrees in Portland is not normal, not "just weather"?

If you have not changed your mind, how hot would it have to get in Portland for you to believe that global warming is happening? 125? 130? 135?

116 degrees in Lytton Canada.

After all, by Zetetic principles, you weren't in Portland, so you don't really know, do you? It cold have been 20 below zero and fake news.

4
There is a concept called the 3 "C"s - conviction, conspiracy, community. There are groups of people who think that experts, officials, institutions are liars/stupid. You start with an idea that is false according to conventional experts and authorities, but you don't just think it is true, you are utterly convinced and unwilling to even consider the possibility that experts are right. You need community, because if it was just one person, everyone would think you were crazy. With a community of believers, you can assure each other that you are right. They usually exaggerate the size of their community.

For example, #stopthesteal. They think they are the majority, deep state, they are a community, and they will not even consider the possibility that Republican election officials in GA and AZ are just telling the truth. QANON is another example.

Conviction - Trump won, they knew he would even before the election and will not consider the possibility he lost. Because they are so certain, it becomes a fact you can use in your argument (assuming the conclusion). As in "Trump won, so we know there were shenanigans, even if we haven't found them yet.

Conspiracy - Deep state, necessary to explain why republican election officials would insist Biden won and why we can't find evidence Cnspiracies are secret, duh, you know them because they got the wrong result. how and why are guesses)

Community - If it was one person, just some kook. But with millions, that alone means there's something there. How could millions be upset if no problem?

Can anyone think of another 3C group? People who believe experts and conventional knowledge is wrong, are utterly convinced and will not consider the possibility they are wrong, explaining the discrepancy with reality by conspiracy?

Homework:

Identify a group of people who dismiss experts and conventional knowledge, refuse to accept the possibility that their idea is wrong and explain the discrepancy with generally accepted reality by conspiracy?

Hmmm, let me think ... Where would I find such a group?


5
Flat Earth Debate / geometry question
« on: June 24, 2021, 03:47:47 PM »
Please read carefully to the end to inderstand the question I am asking.

I have been to Sydney, Capetown, and Buenos Aires. From each of these places I have seen the southern cross directly south of me. On FE map, this places the southern cross in very different directions. I understand from prior FE conversations that doesn't prove RE because I wasn't in two of those places at the same time and I can't trust information from other people, so I can't say that it appears in two different directions at the same time, it could be a conspiracy or big mistake that everyone in the southern hemisphere thinks it is directly south to all of them every night. That is not my question.

My question is, if Sydney, Capetown, and Buenos Aires were in the southern hemisphere of a round earth, and the southern cross was in the direction of the southern pole many millions of miles away, would people in these cities all see the southern cross directly south with no bending of light or unknown physics? Seems so, please explain if my geometry has a problem. Does RE geometry work to explain southern cross directly south everywhere in the southern hemisphere?

6
Flat Earth Debate / Raleigh scattering
« on: June 22, 2021, 05:27:41 PM »
The reason the sky is light blue all day over the entire dome, even at dawn or dusk, is Raleigh scattering. The blue wavelength is subject to bouncing off molecules in the air, while longer wave lengths are not. The sun appears to be yellow orange because that is the color left that does not get scattered after the blue is subtracted by the scattering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_scattering
 
My question is why this scattering ends so abruptly at sunset. On FE, the sun is still up there, we know that Raleigh works over the entire distance across the dome, we all see it everyday, scattering works over the longest distance possible on FE. So what stops the scattering after sunset until dawn?


7
Flat Earth Debate / Sunset in Denver
« on: June 22, 2021, 05:06:55 PM »
At sunset in Denver, in Salt Lake City the dome is light blue in every direction. At that same moment in Kansas City the sky is dark over the entire dome, with stars, including where the sun is. Think about someone in Salt Lake City looking at the dome directly over Denver at the same time as a person looking at the same exact place will see darkness. The angle between the viewpoints to the dome directly over Denver is 30 degrees.

I would like either a reasonable explanation of how this could be on FE, or an admission that FE does not know how this works.

Additionally, I submit that RE geometry and physics explains this. Seems to me FEW believes something seemingly impossible without equation, theory, or experiment, while RE explains this quite reasonably. Why reject this explanation?

8
Flat Earth General / phew map vs FAQ map
« on: May 20, 2020, 04:08:48 PM »
At least one of the two has to be wrong.

Is there any way to tell which one is right?

What is the method of determining which one is wrong?

Does FE care whether they are wrong?

9
From wikipedia entry for Raleighy scattering:

The reddening of the sun is intensified when it is near the horizon because the light being received directly from it must pass through more of the atmosphere. The effect is further increased because the sunlight must pass through a greater proportion of the atmosphere nearer the earth's surface, where it is denser. This removes a significant proportion of the shorter wavelength (blue) and medium wavelength (green) light from the direct path to the observer. The remaining unscattered light is therefore mostly of longer wavelengths and appears more red.

This is explained on RE by the geometry of earth, atmosphere, and sunlight. What is the explanation on FE? Does FE have an explanation where the light passes through several times as much atmosphere, or is Rayleigh scattering not real?


10
Flat Earth General / An interesting way to categorize FE/RE statements
« on: March 19, 2020, 01:53:00 PM »
A statement could be categorized as one of two things:

Answering questions

Questioning answers

Most FE posts that people stand behind (FE is a young science) are debunking RE. That is questioning answers. FEs do not agree among themselves. The FAQ specifically states that none of the things in it are necessarily true. This is not answering questions, this is evasion.

REs have lots of checkable answers, not shy about explaining all sorts of things. This is answering questions.

I say RE answers questions (apparently accurately, as GPS guided airplanes routinely arrive where they intend, for example.

I say the best FE can do is to quesion answers, and this not well. When will FE answer a question? Other than answering is the earth round with no, of course, that is again actually questioning answers.

I asked previously what do FEs all agree on, and the answer was the earth is not round, which, as a I said is actually questioning answers.

I say FE only questions answers, it never answers questions.

11
Flat Earth General / Poll on the FAQ map
« on: August 16, 2019, 02:06:38 PM »
I ask this because the FAQ does not reflect any claim to accuracy and apparently no one is going to fix, add, clarify, or delete. So we can only talk about what the FAQ should be. It is brilliant to refer people to a faq, could be wrong, not gonna get fixed, but you should read it. Treat it as fact when convenient, and no need to defend! Brilliant rhetorical device. Not so great as scientific or epistemological method.

Seems like the FAQ is of fundamental importance to spreading the word about FE. Me, I would go one of two ways.

1. Remove all things which are not proven and agreed upon by all FEs. A trustworthy compendium of FE research.

2. If you are going with "... could be ...", then I would complete it. The map section should have the map that is already there, plus bi-polar, phew, doughnut, two sided disk, etc etc etc. Someone should go through all the posts and make sure that everybody's ideas are included.

12
Flat Earth General / computerized telescope aiming question
« on: August 15, 2019, 12:46:42 PM »
Amateur/hobbyist telescopes have computerized aiming gadgets on them. You align the mount axis to parallel the earth's axis and punch in what you want to look at. My friend has one, I have seen this done. Punch in the moon, it points at the moon, it does that somehow, I have seen it.

Consider that at any moment at different places on earth, the moon is at a different angle, and it appears to move across the sky. The freely purchaseable telescope from multiple different manufacturers can be purchased to verify this. Just punch it in and moters whir, and you are looking at it.

So a programmer at a telescope company wrote a program to do that.

Since we know it works, if the earth is flat, how does it work?

Programmers in on it, or they have been fooled?

13
Flat Earth General / When will the FE community accept defeat?
« on: August 15, 2019, 11:11:19 AM »
There is a map in the faq that shows Australia as being much wider than the US. This is known by maps, car odometers, airliner time/speed/distance, gps, navigation, and geodetic survey, etc etc etc.

This FE map is wrong, yet the map remains. Just as a web site quality issue, I would think the stuff that is clearly wrong would be removed. Suppose an eager FE researcher comes here looking for the truth about FE/RE. Would you want them to see a map that is clearly wrong? And if someone comes here trying to find the truth, sees the map, and does not recognize it is wrong, is that the level of thinking quality you want in the FE community? Won't FE get better results with people who are good at critical thinking?

No FE map has ever been produced with correct distances and equal scale over the whole map.

Yet the FE community does not admit defeat.


14
Flat Earth General / FAQ questions
« on: July 07, 2019, 01:09:46 PM »
If there is a problem with something in the FAQ, such as a map that clearly is wrong, should it be removed, or should clearly wrong things remain in the FAQ?

The map in the FAQ has Australia half again as wide as USA. Google, gps, and reality have Australia 300 miles narrower thn USA. Why is the map still there?

The disclaimer states that FEs do not agree on everything in the FAQ. Should the people who disagree not also have their equally possible and valid answers?

Why is the north pole projection map there and not Danang's PHEW map or Tom Bishop's bi-polar map?

How would an FE figure out which map is true? Isn't FE personal feeling based, therefor everyone's ideas are forever equal? Or does FE have a way to figure out which FE is right when they disagree?

Trying to help you converge on good answers.

15
Flat Earth General / what does FE think of gyrocompass?
« on: July 07, 2019, 11:48:43 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrocompass

"Another, more practical, method is to use weights to force the axis of the compass to remain horizontal (perpendicular to the direction of the center of the Earth), but otherwise allow it to rotate freely within the horizontal plane.[2][3] In this case, gravity will apply a torque forcing the compass's axis toward true north. Because the weights will confine the compass's axis to be horizontal with respect to the Earth's surface, the axis can never align with the Earth's axis (except on the Equator) and must realign itself as the Earth rotates. But with respect to the Earth's surface, the compass will appear to be stationary and pointing along the Earth's surface toward the true North Pole."

Gyrocompass is required on large ships, and is the preferred method of setting headings over magnetic compass.

How does gyrocompass work on FE? Or does it even work at all?

Particularly interested in the Tom Bishop bi-polar map. He explained that navigation still works because the compass would parallel the (curved) longitude on his map. How does gyrocompass work on the bi-polar map?

I am hoping for a thoughtful, scientifically accurate response from FE.

If I make a youtube video of a homemade gyrocompass, would FEs here believe it? It would cost > $50 and I have never made a youtube video, would have to learn how. I would do it if I thought FE would believe, but they would just say I faked it or something. If FE said "go ahead", and I did it, but then FE says "fake!" or whatever, could you understand me getting angry?






16
Flat Earth General / National Geodetic Survey and conspiracy
« on: June 14, 2019, 11:26:00 AM »
The mission of the National Geodetic Survey (NGS) is to define, maintain and provide access to the National Spatial Reference System (NSRS) (PDF, 123 KB). The NSRS provides a consistent coordinate system that defines latitude, longitude, height, scale, gravity, and orientation and shoreline throughout the United States and its territories.

https://www.ngs.noaa.gov/

I wish we could have a NGS surveyor here so you could explain that they were either stupid or evil. It is their education and direct job to deal with the shape of the earth. I don't see how they could be sheep without being stupid, they would have to not understand the exact thing they are working on. Seems to me, 100s of people would be involved in the data and math, and this is pure geometry. They would know if the numbers don't match up and whether they were using RE or FE math and where the markers are.

Seems to me, pretty much all of NGS must be in on on the conspiracy, a few at the top couldn't explain. Conspiracy since 1820 involving hundreds, thousands of people. Or the earth is round and NGS is exactly what they say they are.

17
Flat Earth General / need help with disk/dome model
« on: June 07, 2019, 10:40:26 AM »
In behind the curve, they show Mark Sargent with a small factory operation making FE earth models as a disk covered by a dome. On this dome, there are stars of known constellations etched, the sky is correct from one point on the disk at one time. We know that at the same moment at the same time in the northern and southern hemisphere, entirely different stars are visible. I have been to Hong Kong and Sydney on successive nights and verified this.

So I looked at the disk/dome model and tried to understand how someone in Hong Kong and someone in Sydney see entirely different stars on the dome. I imagined little men looking up at the dome from Sydney and Hong Kong inside a Mark Sargent dome model. If I imagine the light bends to account for this, where are the stars, really? It seems explaining how they see a different dome in effect means the light must be bending so much we really don't know where the stars are. I can describe the rays coming into the eye, but on FE disk/dome model, I can't figure out where the rays came from or how they traveled to my eye.

Does anyone have a diagram explaining this? A cross section view showing a person in southern and northern hemisphere and how the light rays traveled from where. I am at a complete loss to even guess where the stars are, all I know is their apparent location, and the only reasonable explanation I have is RE.

I want a Mark Sargent dome model where the stars are where they appear to be for viewers at all points on the disk. Does someone have this?

18




On RE, the equator has a unique property, shown here twice in Africa and in Ecuador. Water spins the opposite way going down a drain in northern vs southern hemisphere. I personally verified this on a trip to Hong Kong and Sydney.

What is the FE explanation?

If these videos are fake, easy disproof of RE. Just get FEs in northern and southern hemispheres to do the experiment. Video yourselves doing what the vids above show, pan with water and hole in the bottom, and a flower to throw in. Leaves would be okay, but the flower is a touch of class, don't you think? Then you can post videos from trusted sources showing water does not spin different directions in northern and southern hemisphere. Affordable and doable for FE around the globe. Imagine if the above vids are fake and FEs post real videos that show coriollis doesn't do this. Worth a try, right?

Or you could explain why the equator is a special place on FE. Does not seem to have any special geometry on the UN/FAQ/disk map. ????

Hope for a scientific explanation of this on FE.

19
Flat Earth General / a space tourist
« on: April 22, 2019, 03:17:36 PM »
Here is a unique space traveller/conspiracy participant. Rich guy pays the Russians $30M and spends 11 days in space. Comes down and starts "space travel agency" to arrange the same for other rich people.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/19/what-its-like-in-space-from-a-tourist-who-spent-30-million-to-go.html
https://richardinspace.com/

How did this go on FE?

1. Rich guy approaches Russians to take him into space for money.
2. He gives them $30M, then finds out there is no space.
3. Forms a space travel agency to arrange such trips for rich people
4. 5 more rich people pay big bucks, then don't go
5. They all lie (even though not trained actors, very convincingly).

How does FE explain this? If this man was standing in front of you, would you say he is lying, or say he has been fooled?

20
Flat Earth General / Spacex launched the ham satellite
« on: April 16, 2019, 10:06:16 AM »
https://www.cnet.com/news/spacex-rocket-successfully-launches-hammy-satellite/

You personally can buy a radio and point a directional antenna at the point they tell you the satellite is, and hear the signal. Point away, no signals, definitely know the direction, and that direction changes as the satellite passes, as predicted by RE software.

If you leave out the idea "satellites can't exist because the earth is flat", is there any reason to think they don't exist as publicized?

21
Flat Earth General / Need help with Gauss's theorem
« on: April 09, 2019, 11:44:19 AM »
My math is old and rusty. I recall that Gauss's theorem. I recall it says that you can't project a curved surface onto a flat one without distorting the distance between points on the curved surface.

Does this mean that there is only on surface that can have accurate distances?

Does Gauss prove that you can't project sphere onto flat only, or does it mean that if you have points on a sphere there might be some other shape that could have accurate distances between all points?

Seems like Gauss proves that if a sphere has accurate distances, points on that sphere can't be projected onto a plane and retain accurate distances, which proves that if the distances on the globe are all correct, the earth can not be flat.

Does it also prove that if the globe has correct distances, no other shape is possible?

22
Flat Earth General / Are there any FE models that have space flight?
« on: April 07, 2019, 02:10:35 PM »
Does anyone have an FE model where astronauts actually went to the moon and astronomical objects are where NASA and astronomers say they are?

23
Flat Earth General / Doppler shift
« on: April 07, 2019, 02:01:54 PM »
Astronomers use doppler shift to determine the velocity of a star relative to earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect#Astronomy

Does this really exist? Is everything the wiki says true, or something wrong?

Does it mean what the astronomers say it does, that stars are moving in a range of hundreds of km/sec relative to the earth?

Given that this results in huge numbers for velocity some toward us, some away, how can this be on any FE?

If the red shift is caused by something else, what?

If the red shift visn't there, why do some astronomers not realize? Incompetence?

All astronomers in conspiracy?

Now is my problem. I claim reductio ad absurdum, that it is both required and absurd for all astronomers to be conspirators  - QED no FE, at least until someone has an FE model that accounts for red shift. Or presents evidence of the conspiracy other than "there must be a conspiracy, because the earth is flat, so they must be lying!"

24
Flat Earth General / Need help with an FE theory
« on: April 06, 2019, 08:59:17 PM »
If a person is on the equator art 0 degrees longitude sees the sun on the western horizon, at 90 degrees directly overhead, at 180 on the eastern horizon, and at 270, not visible at all.

I put these vectors on the faq map to see how the light would have to bend to do this on FE. So I got a circle, with
a viewpoint on the left looking straight up, the top and bottom looking left, and the right side sees nothing.

Then I realized, if the light is bending that much, how can I know where the sun really is at all? I will finish the diagram of the light paths as soon as I know where the sun is.

Thanks in advance for your help.

25
Flat Earth General / the one question behind FE disproof
« on: April 05, 2019, 09:35:29 AM »
One way to show that an idea is wrong is to assume it is right and show that leads to ridiculous conclusions, called reductio ad absurdum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Example: Assume the earth is flat. We know that the north star is at angle equal to latitude. At the equator, this puts it on the horizon, which is the surface of the earth. We know the sun is not on the surtface at the north pole, so QED, earth is not flat.

The FE escape hatch is that there is always another possible explanation, in this case, obviously light is going to have to bend way beyind known refraction(without explanation or experimental validation). So assume FE, and now we know light bends crazy unknown ways. Don't assume FE, and we are faced with a choice: light bends in crazy unexplained ways, or the earth is round.

So the real question is "what is absurd?" The RE answers are stratalites, light bending way beyond atmospheric refraction, hidden non-euclidean geometry, tethered invisible gps balloons, NASA conspiracy, atmolayer, phew, EAT, etc etc etc.

Perhaps if FE had peer reviewed evidence it would help, but all they have is "well, it could be". May not violate the laws of physics, but the practical issues make it problematic and probability as close to zero as it can be.

The real question here is not what shape the earth is, it is what is absurd. If you see nothing as absurd, you can prove anything. If your definition of absurd is tight, all FE theories fail. When FE faces absurdity, it sometimes changes the laws of physics. Absurd.

Anyone got an FE explanation that has no absurdity? No, they all require global multi-national multi-generational NASA conspiracy. This would fall apart when the details are analyzed, but FE will not pin down the details. I wonder why. Absurd.

26
Flat Earth General / A new way to make a flat map
« on: April 04, 2019, 01:04:17 PM »
First, get an inflatable globe.

Next, check the width of Alaska and Australia and as many other places as you can measure and check that all distances and sizes are correct by whatever standards you have available, google maps, airline schedules, etc. If you have no distances you believe true, you can't make a map, so ... ???

When you are sure the distances are accurate, cut the globe open so you can lay it on a flat surface.

Smooth the map out on that surface and stretch it or manipulate it until it is lying flat on the table and re-check your distances to make sure everything is correct.

FE now has no excuse, for less than $20, FE has a map ready to be flattened. Why would FE not do this immediately?

27
Flat Earth General / Sputnik questions
« on: April 03, 2019, 04:08:06 PM »
In 1957, the Russians said they launched a satellite. They said it transmitted beeps on 20.005 Mhz. Amateur radio operators in America heard these beeps every couple hours.

Also well-documented is that during many passes, the WWV signal remained on and was recorded in tandem with the Sputnik telemetry beacon. This provided a stable time reference from which the Doppler shift of the satellite’s signal and its orbital parameters could be calculated.

So the Russians were able to fake the satellite signal quite effectively, right down to the doppler shift.

https://web.archive.org/web/20071011045828/http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2007/09/28/03/?nc=1

How did they fake a 20.005 mhz signal traveling around the world every 96 minutes with 1950s soviet tech and capabilities?


28
Flat Earth General / Question on becoming FE
« on: April 01, 2019, 04:42:30 PM »
Are there any FEs here who believed in no conspiracy theories before FE? I mean, obviously there have been conspiracies. I am talking about black helicopters, flouride, 9/11 inside job, birthers, Comet Pizza, aliens at Area 51, harp, chemtrails, etc.

Anybody start believing FE that didn't believe any of those first?


29
Flat Earth General / Is this man part of the conspiracy?
« on: March 31, 2019, 06:13:34 PM »


He says he is talking to Greenland while pointing his very directional antenna quite high in the sky. He is wearing a NASA hat. He is a member of amsat.org, which is a club of amateur radio operators who have been building satellites themselves and getting them launched on govt rockets. Their next satellite will be launched by SpaceX.

How can this be explained except by satellites orbiting a round earth?

Who is in on it, just NASA, or SpaceX and amateur radio operators?

Would love to hear the details of a plausible conspiracy or technical explanation of how this could be faked. I may be disappointed.

30
Flat Earth General / If FE was accepted
« on: March 19, 2019, 01:05:59 PM »
Would it be some particular model, or would it be just that the earth was not round?

Would some school districts use the phew map, while others use the polar projection and other a toroid? Would each school board look at many youtube videos and decide for their school district?

Or would FE achieve consensus and all use the exact same model? If that was going to happen, why not come up with the one true model now? RE did it, why can't FE.

In any case, if I am on the school board, FE would have to agree before I put it in the schools. I would think FEs would agree, if FE is ever to be anything but more threads on FES, it has to present a particular case. I have asked more than once, and the only thing all FEs agree on is that the earth is not round.

How will FE achieve agreement? To me, it seems the most foundational thing to be done for the future of FE. Or maybe you like things just the way they are?

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