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Flat Earth General / Question for Tom Bishop about FE consistency
« on: June 19, 2019, 04:12:06 AM »
People consider you to be an FE authority, so:

Do you, or any other Flat Earth proponent, know if there is any CONSISTENT FE model?
Which map it uses?
What distribution of longitudes and latitudes?


Not important for the main question:

While we are here, do you feel safe on TFES.ORG where mods / admins manipulate people's
messages and ban everyone who they see as a threat?

For example:

EDIT: If your claims are true you don't need to try to silence those who disagree.
By doing these things TFES.ORG just badly stained their credibility.

Flat Earth Debate / What is common to both Flat and Globe model?
« on: June 16, 2019, 12:57:43 AM »
Flat and Globe model both talk about Earth.
So, that's one thing they have in common.

We all agree that Sun makes full circle directly above Equator for each Equinox.
This is the latitude zero, and this is the same in Flat and Globe model.
We also agree that Sun makes full circle directly above Tropic of Cancer for December solstice
and above Tropic of Capricorn for June solstice.

So, Equator and the two Tropics are at the same place in both models.

We also agree that all spots that have solar noon at the same moment are at the same meridian.

All distances from the North pole are the same in Flat and in Globe model.
In both models Stockholm is 3405 kilometers from North pole, Otawa 4949 km and Sacramento 5712 km.

What else Flat and Globe models have in common?

There is simple device anyone can make using cheap plastic piping pieces.
You need four angle joints, two longer pipes horizontaly, two transparent pipes verticallly, some water and drop of paint.

It is version of water level and looks something like this:

The device easily aims horizontally and helps seeng that at some altitudes horizon is not at eye level any more.

Be "zetetic" (inquisitive).
Test horizon on your own.
That way nobody (else) can mess with your results.
You can mess yourself as you want, but if you decide to come here and report
bear in mind that anyone else can do the same and know if you are telling the truth.
How honest can you be with yourself?

Here's the "user manual":

Flat Earth General / Twilight and Rayleigh Scattering on Flat Earth?
« on: March 20, 2018, 04:47:40 AM »
This is how Rayleigh Scattering works on Globe model. It gives daylight in atmosphere, and twilight.
When hit by sunlight from above, air scatters light and looks like glowing itself.
Illuminated part of atmosphere gives light to parts "at the edge of the night".
Rest of the air is in shade and no sunlight to scatter.

This is how Rayleigh Scattering doesn't work on Flat model.
It fails to create twilight.

The question is:
How DOES twilight work on Flat Earth?

Flat Earth General / How fast the Sun goes in Flat model?
« on: March 13, 2018, 01:58:18 PM »
Out of three main models used in history:
- Flat model (abandoned 2500 years ago)
- Geocentric model (Biblical model, abandoned 400 years ago)
- Heliocentric model
some people, after 2500 years, try to cancel both, Geocentrism and Heliocentrism, and revert us back to Flat model.

Let's skip all nitpicking and cherry-picking and get all the way down to the basics.

What is the use of Flat Earth model?
Why lately some people insist on it?
What is it good for?

We can circumvent lack of accurate Flat Earth map and measure distances from North pole in degrees of latitude:

Tropic of Cancer is 66.5 degrees from North pole.
Equator is 90 degrees from North pole.
Tropic of Capricorn is 113.5 degrees North pole.
(113.5 - 66.5) / 66.5 = 0.71 = 71%.
Radius of Tropic of Capricorn is 71% bigger than radius of Tropic of Cancer.
So, circumference of Tropic of Capricorn is 71% also bigger than that of Tropic of Cancer.
(If you want to calculate distances, one degree is 60 nautical miles. One nautical mile is 1852 meters.)

We know very well that Sun travels 15 degrees per hour.
Go out and measure in any time of a day, any time of a year, and you will see for yourself.

Flat model puts Sun at 5005 kilometers high (3110 miles).
If you disagree, please show us your own altitude, to apply correction here.

Now, let's calculate Sun's speed for solar noon:

On Summer solstice for solar noon Sun is directly overhead in Ar Rayn, Saudi Arabia, 23.5 degrees north:
30 minutes before solar noon it was 5005 km * tan(7.5 degrees) = 659 km more to the east.
30 minutes after solar noon it was 5005 km * tan(7.5 degrees) = 659 km more to the west.
In 60 minutes (15 degrees per hour) Sun moved for 1318 km, so in 24 hours moved for 1318 * 24 = 31 632 km.

On Winter solstice for solar noon Sun is directly overhead in Polokwane, South Africa, 23.5 degrees south:
30 minutes before solar noon it was 5005 km * tan(7.5 degrees) = 659 km more to the east.
30 minutes after solar noon it was 5005 km * tan(7.5 degrees) = 659 km more to the west.
In 60 minutes (15 degrees per hour) Sun moved for 1318 km, so in 24 hours moved for 1318 * 24 = 31 632 km.


Tropic of Capricorn is 71% wider than Tropic of Cancer.
Circumference of the Tropic of Capricorn should be 71% bigger.
It should be 31 632 * 1.71 = 54 091 km.
Why is it now 31 632 km again?

How "useful" is Flat model to calculate this?

Or maybe Flat model is good for something else?
For what?

How can in flat model south be as warm as north?

If the Earth was flat, then:
Sun is travelling at constant angular speed of 15 degrees per hour, in the Tropical Area (between Tropic of Cancer and Tropic of Capricorn).
Radius of Tropic of Cancer is 37% of full Earth's radius.
Radius of Tropic of Capricorn is 63% of full Earth radius.
So, Tropic of Capricorn is 71% longer, and Sun travels 71% faster to be able to make full circle in the same time (24 hours).
During that travel Sun has much less time to warm up ground surface at Tropic of Capricorn during Winter solstice,
than the time it has to warm up ground surface at the Tropic of Cancer during Summer solstice.
Not only that.
There is greater ground surface along Tropic of Capricorn than along Tropic of Cancer, and the Sun itself is not any warmer in winter than in summer.

In reality we don't have any signifficant temperature differences between Tropic of Cancer in summer and Tropic of Capricorn in winter.

So, Flat model doesn't describe thermal budget of tropics correctly.

Even worse...

If the Earth was flat, then:
Northern Area (area north of Tropic of Cancer) is 4.4 times smaller than Southern Area (area south of Tropic of Capricorn).
Northern Area in summer is receiving same amount of heat as Southern Area in winter.
At 4.4 times bigger area, and with the same amount of heat, southern summers should be much colder than northern summers.

Yet, in reality they have virtually the same temperatures.

Flat model in deed doesn't work when explaining thermal budget of the Earth.

If not even for this, what is the Flat model useful for, anyway?

An - Northern Area
At- Tropical Area
As - Southern Area
Vsun - Speed of the Sun
Tn(avg) - Average temperature of the Northern Area
Ts(avg) - Average temperature of the Southern Area

Flat Earth General / Equinox - sunrise and sunset
« on: March 11, 2018, 01:11:09 PM »
Here comes the time to do one of the simplest tests.
Test of sunrise and sunset for equinox.

Dare you to do it. :-)
If you can't wake up for sunrise, you can see sunset at least.

On March 21st measure azimuth of sunrise and sunset.
(It won't be much different on 20th or 22nd.)

If yor sunrise is due east (azimuth 90 degrees) and sunset due west (azimuth 270 degrees), then you are on globe.
If your sunrise is northeast and sunset northwest, and depends on your latitude, then you are on flat.
(Call some friend more to the south or to the north to measure their sunrise and sunset.)

Flat Earth General / Twilight
« on: March 11, 2018, 12:54:47 AM »
When our headlights shine through some fog, the fog scatters the light and beam glows, illuminating the area around.
The glow makes the surrounding fog glow as well, gradually reducing the brightness with distance of the beam.
If there was no fog or dust in night air we wouldn't be able to see the light beam.

When sunlight hits the air, Rayleigh Scattering makes the air glow blue-ish, and we have daylight.
It doesn't matter the shape of the Earth, the only important thing is to have air hit by sunlight.

There is air up to 100 kilometers above the ground (and some more, but to thin).
Above that is vacuum, and Sun in it.
(In flat model it is 5000 kilometers above, in globe model it is 149.6 million kilometers above.)

To not have blue sky, the air has to be hidden from the sunlight.

In globe model it is easy: the night air is hidden from the Sun on the other side of the planet.
In the twilight area we don't see the Sun, but we see glowing air above.

In flat model, what prevents sunlight from hitting air layers in the night area?

Flat Earth General / What is at 433.8 light years away above North pole?
« on: February 07, 2018, 03:06:52 AM »
Globe model claims that Polaris is 433.8 light years away, directly above North pole.
Flat model claims that Polaris is much closer, at couple of thousand miles.

Globe Earthers, if you don't know what Flat model claims to be there, don't pretend you do.
What you know is from Globe model.

Flat Earthers will know better what Flat model claims to be at 433.8 light years above North pole.
This is the question for them.

Flat Earth General / One of the ways to make accurate Flat Earth map
« on: January 22, 2018, 07:02:00 PM »
Facts (from reality) that we all know:
All places that simultaneously have solar noon lay on the common meridian. It means they have same longitude.
Distances along any single meridian don't depend on Earth model. In reality they are equal to each other between Flat and Globe.
Latitudes also don't depend on shape of the Earth. They are accurate under any model. It means you can perform simple conversion between degrees of latitude and distances along meridians.
Sun relative to Earth travles 15 degrees per hour. It is 1 degree in 4 minutes.
Sun projection (subsolar point) is always between Tropic of Cancer and Tropic of Capricorn.
For Equinox Sun is above Equator, for Summer solstice above Tropic of Cancer, for Winter solstice above Tropic of Capricorn.
Subsolar point has angular ground speed same as angular speed of Sun, which is 15 degrees per hour.


Part of the map, between Tropic of Cancer and Tropic of Capricorn, can be made using known longitudes of places, known distances along meridians, and measured distances along parallels.
Linear ground speed of subsolar point can be derived from angular speed and measured distances between meridians at current parallels.

For example, if in Africa we measure ground speed between two known places, we can be sure on the sea to the east and west that speed was and will be the same during the same day.
Using known degrees from Africa to Australia we can measure distances over Indian Ocean, and using known degrees from Africa to South America we can measure distances over Atlantic Ocean.

When we have accurate segment between two Tropics, we can interpolate places between that and North pole, using known distances and longitudes.

Any suggestions?
Any corrections?

Thanks in advance.

Flat Earth General / Some people don't understand brightness dynamics.
« on: January 07, 2018, 10:50:32 PM »
Exposition required to take good picture of sunny objects is too short to allow faint stars light in the background affect the film in the camera.
Extending exposition to longer values will allow that, but sunny objects will become overexposed and seen as white stains in the photo.
Our eyes are much more advanced, capable of adapting to wider light dynamics, but there are situations where even that is far from enough.
There are voids in star skies where the biggest ground telescopes can't help seeing anything.
But long exposition can help.
One such void was recorded by Hubble telescope, revealing that there ARE galaxies there.

EDIT: The correct word is EXPOSURE, not EXPOSITION. I apologize for the error.

Flat Earth General / Aurora Borealis and Aurora Australis
« on: December 10, 2017, 05:14:54 PM »
The bright dancing lights of the aurora are actually collisions between electrically charged particles from the sun that enter the earth's atmosphere.
The lights are seen above the magnetic poles of the northern and southern hemispheres.
They are known as 'Aurora borealis' in the north and 'Aurora australis' in the south.
Auroral displays appear in many colours although pale green and pink are the most common.
Shades of red, yellow, green, blue, and violet have been reported.
The lights appear in many forms from patches or scattered clouds of light to streamers, arcs, rippling curtains or shooting rays that light up the sky with an eerie glow.

People already know how they work.
Earth's magnetic field channels ionized streams from the Sun toward poles, where they produce the well known glows.

I couldn't find any FE attempt to explain this phenomena.
From where those streams of charged particles come?
Why to both poles?

Expedition to Peru measured the curve of the earth.
They had problems.
They had that guy who used expedition money to buy diamond ring for his girl before he was kicked out.
They had to wait many times till bad wether is over.
But they did it.
They even measured the small difference between curvatures south and north of the equator.

Flat Earther sits at home, read Rowbotham's scam book and hope they can prove and spread his deceptions.
Hard to admit they were seduced by lies of one charlatan.

Unfortunately, "everyone" can use theodolite and measure how wrong they are when sayin the earth is flat.
When I say "everyone", I mean it is not limited to very small, rich elite group.
If you have a job, you can buy theodolite and see the reality. It is cheaper than iPhone X.
For example: Theodolite on eBay.
Yes, you would have to understand geometry and learn how to use the device.
But there are articles about it all over the Internet. Easy to google for them.

Two verticals at the distance of one nautical mile will not be parallel.
They will tilt from each other by one arc minute.
That was how and why the nautical mile was defined in the first place.
One degree is 60 nautical miles wide.
(Not "one degree" between meridians. One degree on local great circle.)

Flat Earther will say "it is not true, definition of nautical mile is conspiracy". (Try to tell that to people who defined it because they needed it.)
In reality, nautical mile was defined long before NASA.

Difference between Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometry is, for example, diference in sum of angles in triangle.
Euclidean geometry works on flat plane, and sum of angles in triangle is always 180 degrees.
Non-Euclidean geometry works on curved surfaces.
On the Earth's surface if you measure triangle big enough, sum of the angles will be more than 180.
If the Earth was flat it wouldn't be the case.
Bigger the triangle, more degrees in the angle sum.
If you draw a triangle with one point at the South Pole, draw two sides with angle between them 90 degrees,
and draw them all the way to equator, they will intersect it under another 90 degrees angles.
Such triangle has sum of angles 270 degrees.
All three sides of the triangle will follow great circles of the globe, which means they will not turn left or right, only down, following the curve of the ground.

You can use theodolite in several ways, and if you understand geometry you can measure curvature yourself.

Flat Earther will avoid it. He/she will grasp every excuse to discard, even discredit your measurements. And hide behind cherry-picked evidence (or "evidence").

But to honestly measure on their own?
No way, Jose.

EDIT: I didn't have to buy one. I knew people in and around construction business.
Some of them were geodesists. (Especially important for building roads, but you already knew that.)

Flat Earth General / Supernovae
« on: December 08, 2017, 03:48:58 PM »
When supernova explodes the illumination sphere around it grows in radius with the speed of light.
We can measure increase of illumination on surrounding nebulae and other objects.

What do you think, when sphere of illumination radius grows about 0.0012 degrees per day, how far was the supernova when exploded?

Light travels 26 * 109 km in one day (26 * 1012 m).
If it was 0.0012 degrees, then we can calculated distance X like this:
tg(0.0012) = 26 * 1012 m / X
X = 26 * 1012 m / tg(0.0012) = 1.24 * 1018 m , which is 131 light years away.

Hehe, dare you to fit that under the dome.

Flat Earth General / Sun never sets ???
« on: December 08, 2017, 01:09:16 PM »
About usability of FE model:

In FE model sun is all the time above the ground.
I was told that the effect of sunset is caused by limited reach of sunlight.
After 6000 miles it can't travel further and when the sun is too far the light can't reach us any more.

Below is diagram of the real life case.
Standing on sea shore we don't see the sun any more.
Light can't travel beyond 6000 miles, from sun S to observer O.
Light also can't travel 6001 miles from S to A and 1 mile back from A to O. 6002 miles in total.
But light CAN travel 6002 miles from S to B and another 2 miles from B to O. 6004 miles in total.

A moment before sunset "perspective" reduces those 3000 miles of distance from sun to ground,
but doesn't reduce 30 miles of sun's diameter at the same distance from observer.

Do you think FE model makes any sense in real life?
Or another group of Flat Earthers have some different model?
Which one is good enough?

Do people need different FE models for every set of data and events?

Flat Earth General / Shadow of horizon
« on: November 10, 2017, 07:08:40 AM »
I've found interesting topic on this forum about shadow of horizon.
"If sun never goes down, never sets or rises, why horizon casts shadow on mountains and buildings behind you?"
People don't know how to explain that.

In other words, if the distance that light travels is limited, and you don't see sun when is far enough,
why are objects even further behind you still illuminated?
And why only upper part?
Light can't reach you directly, but can reach 2 miles behind you and another 2 miles back to your eyes?

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