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Topics - napoleon

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Flat Earth Debate / Questions about our moon
« on: November 07, 2017, 12:42:47 AM »
I would like to try something here.
Let's see how this works out.

The question is:
How can we identify our moon?
how do we know for sure the thing in the sky is our one and the same moon we see every time?
how do we know we only have one moon?

please react as accurate as possible. I know it sounds a little silly, but I will explain later.

Flat Earth General / general tips for a better forum
« on: October 04, 2017, 12:27:24 AM »
I think this forum is not being used correctly by the posters.
Want I see most of the time is discussions between FE and RE about which one is right and which one is wrong.
We all know RE has it worked out pretty well and FE not.
We all know that there is no FE model that explains everything. there are a lot of gaps.

proving which theory is right and which theory is wrong should not be the main topic of every thread here. I'm sure the FE-ers also know themselves that there are several gaps in their theory.

So stop demanding each other to provide proof for one is pointless.

Instead, brainstorm with each other how an FE could work, exchange ideas about that, and brainstorm which answers this new idea can provide and the problems they introduce.

It will be a much more constructive forum that way.

again, you don't need to provide evidence to disprove some theory...people already know that.
try to contribute a tread by improving someones ideas.

Flat Earth Debate / what if...(an alternative to UA)...
« on: May 19, 2017, 01:51:23 AM »
What if the Earth was a disk which is not accelerating upward like the UA theory, but instead moves sideways in a very large circular motion around a centre?
just like the moon is tide locked to the Earth, the Earth is tidelocked to this centre...
this explanation could be an alternative to UA in order to explain not upward acceleration or gravity, but the centrepedal force is the cause why we are not drifting away from Earth...
just like the Turkish tea trays:

you can swing the tray all you want but the tea cups stay in place.

the big difference is that unlike UA you don't need a model which is speeding up every second ( so, you don't need to explain the mechanism behind this acceleration), have a constant circular motion.
of course you have other problems with this model...I understand that...but FE-model is perfect

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Life of the Prophets
« on: May 09, 2017, 03:28:47 AM »
I would like to share with you the Islamic version of the life of the Abrahamic Prophets.
Here you can read about Adam, Noah, moses, David, Mariah, Jesus, Mohammed and many more.
I believe this can be interesting for Christians because it has some detailed information about Jesus, Mariah and Zacharias and it approaches their story from another view.

I definitely recommend to read it if you are interested in this subject.

you can fin it here:
This is the version which is generally accepted by the Muslims.
Enjoy, and maybe we can have a discussion about it afterwards.

Flat Earth Debate / What is atmospheric stringency
« on: May 08, 2017, 11:49:46 PM »
Too often, I am reading only the 2 words "atmospheric stringency" as an explanation to manay questions.
If you ask what that is, you get another vague explanation as "already many times explained" or "use search"
But nowhere can I find a good explanation of this atmospheric stringency.

please for the people who can explain what atmospheric stringency is and what it does...please explain here or provide a link where I can find a good explanation.

Flat Earth Q&A / FE model with the suns orbit at summer and winter
« on: April 24, 2017, 03:05:57 AM »
Everyone is sfamiliar with the Flat Earth model in which the sun orbits above our heads making a great circle in the winter and a smaller circle in the summer in attempt to explain days and nights, and summer and winter.
But if I look at this model more closely, I see that the sun at night in the summer is multiple times further to us than the sun at daytime in the winter.
Yet, the summernights are usually warmer than winterdaytimes.
So, according to this model, every night should be freezingly cold, and every day should be hot.
Can someone explain?

Flat Earth Debate / shared case to prove disprove Spherical Earth
« on: March 28, 2017, 05:59:07 AM »
I would like to start a mathematical case with you.
Yesterday, I was installing the satellite dish for my parents and by doing that, I thought out this experiment:
a lot of people have a satellite dish at home. These dishes point to some location in the sky and are fixed. These dishes need a certain angle and inclination to work, a little out of angle or inclination and it loses the signal.
This indicates that there is really something up there which transmits a signal. It can't be an antenna mast because if you look in the direction of the dish, you will not see a mast. So, it must be a satellite.

This satellite must be at a fixed point in the sky (a geostationary satellite)
now it gets interesting because:
For a satellite to be geostationary it must meet these conditions:
-it must orbit the Earth in exact 24 hours,
-it must orbit the Earth in the exact rotating direction of the earth, therefore:
-it must orbit the Earth around the Equator.

If you check your dish, and you are living in the Northern Hemisphere, you will see that it always point in the direction of somewhere south. It can be exactly South, SE, SW or even ESE or WSW but never the North direction (for a dish in the Northern Hemisphere).

Now we can do fun calculation with this knowledge.
If you know the ground location of the satellite, then you can find out the distance between you and this ground location of the satellite, and you can calculate the height of the satellite using the inclination of your disk.
The height of all geostationary satellites should be around 35780km above the ground. you can calculate if that confirms your calculation.
Interesting part here is that this calculation is directly linked to the shape of the earth. you can imagine that for a spherical earth, you would get different values as for a flat earth.

I will shortly reply on this thread sharing my calculations.
Hope some others will do that too and then we can compare the results.

Flat Earth Debate / Real Earth vs Flat Earth part deux
« on: March 27, 2017, 03:48:30 AM »
Night sky of Europe looking North and Australia looking south.
Real Earth vs Flat Earth.
Again, Observations don't match at all with FE Theory.
If you claim otherwise, please explain.

Flat Earth Debate / Real Earth vs Flat Earth
« on: March 27, 2017, 12:55:47 AM »
I deliberately use the word "Real" because that's what you absolutely, undeniably are observing, and it does not match FE Theory.

Any comments?

Hello everyone, I am starting this thread because of my discussion with Crutonius, and I don’t want to derail the original thread “Why most of Atheist's questions are wrong”.

There could be a case stated just as strongly for the existence of God as there is for the scientific explanation. Neither will be proven till we kick the bucket...If my belief is right then great!! If athiest are right, then who gives a shit, we have all lived a pointless life at that point. A fairy fart of existence just to vanish without a trace...

Pascal's wager.

I look at it a little different.  I can act in the best interest of people or I can act in the best interest of God.  I have a pretty good idea of how to go about the former but not a lot of information on the latter.  If there is a god, then I don't see how he could fault me for that.  If there's not an afterlife, the people I love are a part of me and still go on doing better than they would if I had never been.
Acting in the best interest is a subset of acting in the best interest of God. God orders us to be good to others. So if you are not good to others, you do not obey Gods orders and therefore, you do not act in the best interest of God.

so, in other words, you are doing good...way better than many many others, but not good enough, something still is missing.
In the end, it really comes to believing or not believing, saying that you have always been good to others will NOT help you.

Then you are claiming that you don't have any information about being good to God. This doesn't apply anymore nowadays, you have internet, books, media. God will not fault you on something you don't know of course, But he will fault you on having the chance and opportunity to investigate, but not doing it because of laziness or the lack of interest.
You do have enough interest in investigating flat earth

Sorry, that I am attacking you with this, but it is the way I look at it. I thought this just need to be said. Sorry if I offended you

No offense taken.

Your statement is kind of all over the place.  I'd nearly have to write a book to cover why I disagree with you.  But I'll just cover one point.

Do you have kids?  Is there any crime your kids could commit that would make you want to burn them for all eternity? 

Is it more likely than an omnipotent, all loving God would burn us alive for all eternity over a technicality or is it more likely that a very large, very powerful and very human organization is using a very heavy handed sales tactic?
İ see where you are getting don't understand it because you are still missing a huge point of why we exist and what the meaning of life is. İt would take a lot of time to explain you that...and a forum is not quite the ideal medium to discuss these kind of things...but İ don't blame you for that.

My primary education was at a fundamentalist Christian private school.  I know Christianity better than most Christians do.  If I've come to a different conclusion than you it's probably because I have more information, not less. 

Not the ideal medium?  This is a religious/philosophical discussion in a religious/philosophical forum.  If you're concerned about offending me, that's possible.  But I live in a very religious city in a very religious country so I've got a thicker skin than normal here.  So if you have something you want to say or something you think I've missed by all means educate me.
Like İ said...i am a Muslim...not a my information is not more or less...just different source...i will try to explain you my point of view...please give me time...
Dear Crutonius,
Here is my attempt to give you a window of my vision how I look at life.
Please note that we are not talking science here. I will not bring up any quotes or some other “evidence” to proof that I am right or you are wrong or something like that. I am not trying to convert you to Islam nor I am trying to force my religion on you.
With this, I am just trying to enhance your view and hopefully making you conscious that there CAN be other explanations for everything than what you are aware of.
Please do not try to derail this thread, because I am just trying to show my ideas and my point of view with you guys…and I am not trying to prove anything with it. If you have questions, of course you can ask.
First of all, let me talk about myself.
I am a Turkish Muslim (ssssssh please don’t tell Intikam…I really don’t like that guy), 37 years old, married, have a daughter of 6 months now, electrical engineer for 12 years, Live in Germany where of course the best engineers in the world live :P:P:P
So my background is technical. I am a science guy. For me, everything needs to have logic. No matter how complex an event looks like…if you are truly interested in understanding something or some event…you need to investigate it, and if you look hard enough…you WILL find the logic behind it.
That’s how I look at everything in life. For me, Religion and Science must go hand in hand. The one is an extension of the other. If your religion and science contradict each other, then something is wrong. Your religion may be faulty, or the evidence of proof is no good, or you do not understand it well enough, or something else you forgot or missed.
But in the end religion and Science HAVE TO BE parallel to each other.

Now the Question: Why do I believe in a God?
Like I said, I like logic.
The Big Bang teaches us how the universe existed…out of coincidence. At first, there was this pinpoint with a huge mass…then it exploded and start expanding rapidly, creating time, space and matter. It is still expanding right now.
Eventually the stars, planets, and our earth have been created. Later on, some Carbon, Hydogen and Oxygen atoms somehow came together to form a single Gen. More of this somehow created Gens came together to form a single cell.
You see, there is a lot of coincidence in this.
A sidestep to demonstrate:
With every new year, my family-in-law play Lotto here. This is a Lottery game with the numbers 1 to 60 and you have to cross out 5 numbers out of 60. In which order, it doesn’t matter.
The chance that the first drawn number is one of your marked numbers is 5/60.
The chance that the second drawn number is one of your marked numbers is 5/59.
The chance that all the 5 drawn numbers are your marked numbers is (5/60)*(4/59) *(3/58)*(2/57)*(1/56)….
Every random sequence of 5 numbers you choose have exact the same chance…so I choose to mark the numbers 1,2,3,4,5.
My family then get angry with me, because for them this chance is highly unlikely to happen and is thrown away money. Even though, I try to explain, that it has the EXACT amount of chance as their randomly chosen numbers, they still somehow think that their sequence stand much more chance of winning than mine. It is not worth arguing with them about it.
To come back to the subject, this was just a sidestep that people have difficulties understanding really small chances, and how they easily over estimate them.
For me, this is not happening…the coincidence is just way too small to happen…it’s like a miracle…and for a miracle to happen, you need God.
But let’s say, pure out of coincidence, 1 single cell have been formed. There is still one very important ingredient missing, which is life itself. It still is a dead cell.
Because even though there is a very very slim chance to form a single cell on his own, this is still NOT an explanation of how life exists, the formed cell is not living. For this cell to live, you need much more than coincidence…you need God. That’s the reason I never doubt the existence of God.
Please note I am not rejecting the big Bang theory!! Who is saying creationism has to contradict with the Big Bang theory of evolution? Why can people not understand that the Big Bang happened with the hand of God, and that God used evolution to create such a diversity of creatures on earth.
To describe it a little disrespectfull: call the first self-consious ape Adam, and there is your link between creatiosm and evolution.
Like I said, Religion and science can co-exist. If I am going too fast, or you do not understand something, please let me know. This is one of the reasons I said a forum is NOT a very suitable medium to discuss these kinds of complex subjects. A more interactive medium would have been much easier, but ok.

So, now you know, why I am not doubting my believe in God and still be able to keep my love to science I can start answering your next question: “why the punishment of eternal hell?”
A little background:
God is unlimited. He does not need anything or anyone to do anything. This is very important to realize to be able to understand everything. The question you need to ask yourself is: “Why did he create us Humans?” I cannot explain you the whole answer, because I don’t know the answer fully myself, but I can explain you a little of it:
God is capable of creating much more powerful creatures than human beings. Look at Angels…much faster than us, much stronger. They are not lazy, always working in favor of God, they never say no.
Why would God create such helpless and limited creatures as the human being if he could create Angels?
Because we have something which makes us better than the Angels: our reasoning, and our freedom of choice!! We are free to do what we want. We do not have to do what God ordered us, but we Choose to follow the good and to reject the evil. Unlike the Angels, they do not have this choice, they just do what they are programmed to do, nothing else. They can not say no. But we are choosing to do good on our own. That’s why our rank is higher that those of the Angels.
We are believing in a God, where there is no evidence of proof. We just believe in a God just by looking at life itself and seeing that everything couldn’t have been happened on its own. We have the possibility to investigate and learn. So, if we were not believing at first we have the opportunity to investigate and learn.
This comes with a price though. To be able to have this opportunity you will need a choice between good and bad. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have a real choice. You need to see the evil, see that you have the choice to do evil to be able to reject it and choose the right way on your own instead. That’s why evil exists in this world…to be able to give us a real opportunity for choosing good over bad.
This still doesn’t answer of explaining why eternal hell isn’t it?? Please be patient…
Muslims believe there was a life before this world, and there is an eternal afterlife. So a before-earth-life, earth-life, and eternal afterlife.
In your before-earth-life you existed already as a soul, but you were actually nothing, not good, not bad. Life passing by, every second the same, being nothing, doing nothing. So we have been asked:
Do you want to continue this life? Or do you want to undergo a test on earth with the result of eternal life or eternal hell. The ones who answered no, are still in a before-earth-life state, and they will remain like that for eternity.
The ones who answered yes to this question are having their test to live a temporarily life on earth or are waiting their tests to begin. So, the test is basically about believing. Do you or do you not believe in a God? So simple is this test. God is so merciful, that he expanded our opportunities to succeed in oud test, so that the chance to fail it is minimal. It not a matter of doing good or doing bad. It is just a matter of believing that there is a God.
Please not this: with “test” I don’t mean a test for God to see if you make the right decisions or not.
Like said, God is Unlimited. He already knows what decisions we will make. So, this test is for our self. How would you react if God just takes you out of your before-earth-life and throws you right into eternal hell? You would ask “Why God? What have I done?” and He will answer “I know you better than you know yourself” but you wouldn’t understand this answer. This is the function of our lives on earth. Making us witnesses of our own actions and decisions on earth so that when we are put in heaven or hell we know why we deserved that.
So everyone is having his own test here on earth. Strong souls have difficult tests, but their rewards will also be greater. Others have relative simple tests because they are not that strong. To be able they also can pass their tests, it is a bit easier for them.
You must know, no one undergoes a heavier test on earth which is too difficult for him / her.
The reckoning in the afterlife will be like this:
You will be considered as a believer if you have even the slightest grain of possibility in your heart of believing in a God.
Infants until the age of 7 or 8 are considered as believers and are sinless.
People with downsyndrome or who are somehow mentally handicapped so, who are not totally self conscious are considered as believers and are sinfree.
You will be considered as a non-believer if you are rejecting every possibility of an existing God.
Believers will go to eternal heaven.
Believers who have done injustice will be reckoned. Their good deeds on earth will be balanced against their bad deeds and if this is balanced in the wrong way, they will be punished for this but after this punishment they will be considered sin-free, so they have access to eternal heaven.
Non-believers will go to eternal hell. Non-believers who have lived a good life on earth will be rewarded temporarily but after that still a life of eternal hell awaits them.
Like said, this eternal heaven or hell is necessary to be able to have a free choice, and to use our brain and reasoning wisely. There is much at stake, so please choose wisely!!

So basically, Muslims, Christians, Jews, or any other who believes that there is a God, will not suffer eternal hell. They will only suffer a possible temporarily punishment in a hell-like environment, but eventually go to heaven.
People who commit suicide will be considered as non-believers at all times no matter what the cause is, because the person choses to end his own life because of his disbelief. He / she commits suicide because he / she is convinced that death is a salvation from his/hers suffering on earth. Which he/she can not know. So, any suicide bomber, exploding a bomb in a crowded place killing tens of innocent people, claiming 70 virgins in the afterlife:
Perhaps he will get his 70 virgins…but they won’t be 70 virgin females!! Just kidding. These Muslim extremists are not considered as believers and they will join eternal hell for killing themselves and many others.
That’s why eternal hell and eternal heaven exist. Just like you said, temporarily punishment and reward for reckoning and permanent hell or heaven to make our freedom of choice possible.
You may think this is a little woozy or unlikely. That was also my first reaction to this information. But the more you think about it, the more it makes sense and the more the puzzle piece settles in his place.
So again, to illustrate how mercifull God really is:
You don’t need much to earn eternal heaven. Just the slightest believe in a God will be enough. You will be reckoned for your deeds in a temporary hell or heaven though.
If you truly regret your bad deeds and pray for forgiveness in your earth-life, you will be granted forgiveness, no matter how big your sin is. Please note, that there are limitations on this.
God can not forgive you the bad deeds you have been doing to others. Because this would be injustice to the other. Therefore, he orders you to ask forgiveness to the person you wronged, and if this person forgives you, only then you will be forgiven totally for this specific deed.
That is why being good to others is so very important within Islam, Christianity and most other religions. God can forgive you every sin, but He won’t just forgive you the bad deeds you have been doing to others.
For now, I believe this covers what I basically have to say on the issue. Surely I have forgotten some detail to mention, but I will react if you or someone has questions about it.

Good luck!!

Flat Earth General / Good old Copy-paste work
« on: January 24, 2017, 02:23:31 AM »
I was looking at the FE wiki to see what evidence FE-ers have for their pancake earth and while I was reading i found out that some of the information on this site is some good old Copy-paste work from other sites.
Just a few words changed here and there.
a few examples:

FE wiki; the Bishop experiment on "experimental evidence":

"IF the earth is a globe, and is 24,900 English statute miles in circumference, the surface of all standing water must have a certain degree of convexity--every part must be an arc of a circle. From the summit of any such arc there will exist a curvature or declination of 8 inches in the first statute mile. In the second mile the fall will be 32 inches; in the third mile, 72 inches, or 6 feet, as shown in this chart. Ergo; looking at the opposite beach over 23 miles away there should be a bulge of water over 350 feet tall blocking my view. There isn't."

and wikipedia

"IF the earth is a globe, and is 25,000 English statute miles in circumference, the surface of all standing water must have a certain degree of convexity--every part must be an arc of a circle. From the summit of any such arc there will exist a curvature or declination of 8 inches in the first statute mile. In the second mile the fall will be 32 inches; in the third mile, 72 inches, or 6 feet, as shown in the following diagram:"

Notice that it is basically the same text, just changed the 25,000 into 24,900.


FE wiki the Bedfort Level Experiment:

"The Bedford Level Experiment was a series of observations carried out along a six-mile length of the Old Bedford River on the Bedford Level, Norfolk, England.

The experiment was often performed during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Most results have served to prove Flat Earth Theory, and although a few have claimed otherwise they have been soundly disproved by Flat Earthers. The Bedford Level Experiment remains one of the most widely-accepted examples of Flat Earth proof.


At the point chosen for all the experiments the river was a slow-flowing drainage canal running in uninterrupted straight line for a six-mile stretch to the north-east of the village of Welney. The most famous of the observations, and the one that was taught in schools until photographs of the Earth from space became available, involved a set of three poles fixed at equal height above water level along this length. As the surface of the water was understood to follow any hypothetical curvature of the Earth, the observation that the three poles aligned perfectly when observed through a theodolite serves as evidence of a flat Earth."

and wikipedia

"The Bedford Level experiment is a series of observations carried out along a six-mile (9.7 km) length of the Old Bedford River on the Bedford Level, Norfolk, England, UK, during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, to measure the curvature of the Earth. Samuel Birley Rowbotham, who conducted the first few observations in 1849, claimed he had proven the Earth to be flat. In 1870, Alfred Russel Wallace, by virtue of his surveyor's training and knowledge of physics, avoided errors caused by the effects of atmospheric refraction and showed a curvature consistent with a spherical Earth.[1]



Diagram of Rowbotham's experiment on the Bedford Level, taken from his book "Earth not a globe"
The first experiment at this site was conducted by Rowbotham in the summer of 1838. He waded into the river and used a telescope held eight inches (20 cm) above the water to watch a boat, with a flag on its mast three feet (0.91 m) above the water, row slowly away from him.[3] He reported that the vessel remained constantly in his view for the full six miles (9.7 km) to Welney bridge, whereas, had the water surface been curved with the accepted circumference of a spherical earth, the top of the mast should have been some 11 feet (3.4 m) below his line of sight. He published this observation using the pseudonym Parallax in 1849 and subsequently expanded it into a book, Earth Not a Globe, published in 1865.[4]"

Again, almost the same text, only changed a little bit. Notice, how subtle the text "the observation that the three poles aligned perfectly when observed through a theodolite serves as evidence of a flat Earth." has been added to the FE wiki just to make it look like it is "proven" that the earth is a pancake?

Well, the only thing that this proves to me, is there is plagiarism around here. Either wikipedia, or the FE wiki is not correct.

Either way, both sites are not reliable!!

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