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Flat Earth Debate / How high is the Sun?
« on: November 24, 2008, 01:58:58 AM »
Since there appears to be some disagreement between FE models about this question, I decided that it needs a thread so it can be discussed properly.

We have the Rowbothamian model which has the Sun 3000 miles above the surface of the Earth.

We also have the Sandokanian model which has the Sun 25 km above the surface of the Earth.

I was wondering what evidence there was for either distance.

Flat Earth Debate / Time for a revision of the FAQ?
« on: November 18, 2008, 08:16:03 AM »
Based on the fact that the basic beliefs of the FES have changed since the creation of the original FAQ, it is probably time to revise the FAQ to reflect these updated beliefs.

Here are some topics that can probably be revised to better reflect current beliefs...

Q: Why do you believe the earth is flat?
A: Well, it looks flat.  As zeteticists we believe in trusting our own senses, even if it's in direct opposition to what those in authority tell us.  Not only do we have no reason for believing that the earth is round, we have solid evidence that it is not so.

Although it does look flat, apparently it gives the illusion of being curved (aka "bendy light").  The general phrase "solid evidence" should probably be expanded upon to give specific examples.

Q: What does the flat earth look like?
A: The flat earth is laid out like the emblem on the United Nations flag:

The north pole is at the center of the disk and the ice wall (see below) surrounds the outside.  Going due northward brings you to the center of the earth, and going due southward brings you to the rim.

Since this map, and the existence of the ice wall are apparently not supported by the current FE model, this answer is no longer accurate.

Q: What is the circumference and diameter of the earth?
A: We estimate the circumference to be around 78,225 miles and the diameter to be 24,900 miles.

There is an error in this answer.  The circumference of a circle 24,900 miles (is this nautical or statute miles?) would be 156,451 miles.  Either that, or the radius is wrong.

Q: What is the ice wall?
A: It is a large mountain range covered with ice that surrounds the flat earth.  It is believed to hold in the oceans.  It rises in several places 150 feet above sea level and may rise higher in places.  On a round earth map it would correspond to the coast of Antarctica.  There is also a theoretical ice wall that may lie further outland that some believe to rise as high as 50,000 to 100,000 feet and it is believed by some that that is what holds in the atmosphere.  However, since it's never been observed, some feel that there's no reason to believe in the existence of the so-called "greater ice wall".

Q: What lies beyond the ice wall?
A: All that we know to lie beyond the ice wall is a seemingly endless plain of ice.  The true magnitude of the earth beyond the ice wall may never be known and some theorize that it stretches forever, an infinite plain of icy tundra.  Others feel it is more reasonable that the plane of the earth has an edge, possibly bounded by the greater ice wall.  Rowbotham was a bit ambiguous on the point.

The current model of the FE doesn't seem to have an ice wall, so this should be eliminated.

Q: Then what causes us to be attracted to the surface of the earth?
A: It is our contention that the disk is actually accelerating upwards at a constant rate of 9.8m/s/s, thus producing the phenomenon you refer to as gravity.  We call this universal acceleration and the mechanism is dubbed the universal accelerator, or UA.

There seems to be some debate about this.  Either this should be eliminated or the alternative theory of an infinite Earth with traditional gravitation should be mentioned.

Q: What about tides then?
A: Precisely what causes the tides is unknown, although it is theorized by some that the heavenly bodies do exert a slight gravitational pull.  One explanation, therefore, is that the moon is causing the tides, with an accompanying body we call the anti-moon located underneath the disk of the earth balancing out the effect we observe.  Others feel that the earth simply tips back and forth, thus causing tides.

The anti-moon and "tippy Earth" answers have fallen out of favor and should probably be eliminated.

Q: How does a compass work if the earth is flat?
A: The earth's magnetic field is generated the same way in FE as in RE.  So the magnetic north pole is near the geographic north pole, as on RE.  The magnetic south pole is located on the underside of the earth.  The ice wall acts as a magnetic south pole because it is the furthest from the center that you can follow the magnetic field.  The field line is vertical in this area.

The part about if being generated in the same way as in RE should be eliminated since the two models are exclusive.  The reference to the ice wall should also be eliminated.  There is also the problem with the evidence of the Magnetic South Pole being located off of the coast of Antarctica rather than "on the underside of the Earth."

Q: Do you have a map?
A: Unfortunately, nothing reliable...

You do have the "True FE Map" from the True Believers thread of the same title, at the .net forum, that has been held up as the definitive map.  That should at least get equal representation.

Q: How do sunsets happen?
A: It's a perspective effect, combined with atmospheric refraction.  Obviously the sun isn't literally dipping below the horizon as it's not revolving around the earth.  Actually as the sun gets closer to the horizon its observed position differs slightly from its actual position, until it is far enough away that it appears the sun actually sets into the earth at the horizon line.  In reality it's just an optical illusion.

The theory of "bendy light" as the cause of sunrise/sunset needs to be inserted here.

Q: Why would there be a horizon if the earth is flat?  Shouldn't the surface just extend out to the end of the earth?
A: Actually there would be a horizon even if the earth was infinite.  Its existence has little to do with the supposed curvature of the earth and its position wouldn't be significantly different one way or another.

The appearance of the horizon is explained by "bendy light."

Those are just the ones that are different based on the current models of the FES.  Of course, the conspiracy section should be expanded to include all of the links between the different airplane manufacturers, foreign space programs, GPS providers, shipping companies, airlines, subsea cable operators and installers, etc.

In order to open up more of the FES "True Believers" threads up to discussion by the forums as a whole, I give you the non-existence of nuclear weapons by Sandokan...

Quote from: Sandokan
From ""Hiroshima Before and After"...

It seems hard to believe that less than 60 years ago we were naive enough to believe everything our government told us without question. It is even harder to imagine that today forces still exist in Washington who will stop at nothing to prevent the dissemination of pure, unadulterated Truth. It is time for the outrageous lies propagated for the past half century to be put to rest, and time for the real story behind one of the United States' greatest cover-ups to be told.

Here is a model of the general disposition of the blast area. Observe the water access (if someone wanted to import thousands of tons of TNT quietly) and the structures standing. The second model shows you a representation (I hope they were doing this to exact scale-down) of the damage after the blast. Compare the epicentre of the blast as shown with a red flag in the second model with the blast effects as depicted in the first black and white after photo at the top of this thread. The center is way off and it would be interesting to understand why each model seems to make a point of not showing the structures BEHIND the blast. Take the circle of smoke on the black and white photo on top and transpose it where the blast flag is located on the after model in this set and ask yourself where 40% of the destruction went and why are the blast depicted with such contradiction from one official model to the next?

Also recall that this Allied genocide masquerading as liberation firebombed Desden in February of 1945, firebombed Tokyo in March (100,000) 1945 and wrapped things up with the massive FIREBOMBING masquerading as atomic bomb of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Did you know that Nagasaki was one of the biggest Catholic stronghold in Japan at the time?

Keep an eye on the epicenter of the blast and the radius of damage. Both those models are missing about 40% of the overall blast area. Take another look at the devastation photos, the original black and white I mean, look at the roads.
Do you see what I mean, THEY ARE ALL HIGHLY VISIBLE, how is this possible when debris has been catapulted all over the place? The roads should have been covered in debris. The hoaxsters became negligent and thought they would control the flow of information forever.

Look at the photos depicting the blast. You see a nice column of smoke rising into the sky with a pretty musroom photoshop on top. How do you get such a cloud from an airburst 2000 (1850 to be precise) feet above the ground? Where is the big crater, so characteristic of the hype used to open the cah funnel, in the center of Hiroshima. According to the models you would think they were burning autumn grass or something. I am not prepared to say that the hoax was fabricated entirely, I think those poor people really got the rabbinical lessons GOOD. And I will bet it smarted too. Funny how most of the burn victims photos I have seen never have burnt hair. I someone has a picture something like that award winning picture of that small girl running from US napalm carrying her brother or sister in her arms. You could tell THAT was real because the hair was burned in a way one might think is consistent with intense heat. The Hiroshima survivors have such an astonishing array of burn marks and burn patterns that one could be forgiven for wondering what it was that exploded there. Did the rig the city like a synchronized demolition with conventional fuel bombs spread throughout the buildings.

I invite the curious to examine the buildings in the BEFORE model and see what size buildings would have been suitable storage places to set the charges of such large amounts of fuel explosive.

Also note with regards to the mushroom cloud. Most people were blinded and in shock. Most survivors would agree with whatever the skunk had photoshopped to portray the configuration of the blast and agreed with it. Making people believe the bomb was real was most important, the skunks thought that the world would never believe a test shot with experts. The first choice for the use of the atomic bomb was determined to be Kyoto by the Target Committee. It was believed that the highly literate and intellectual residents there would convey the sophisticated terror and people would believe them MORE, It is my contention that they DID NOT BOMB Kyoto for THAT very REASON. They feared the intellectuals would be believed if they detected clues that it was a hoax. People (did not need to be too smart to display terror) were ritually sacrificed by fire as described in the definition of the word holocaust. The Allies were great at killing holocaust-style, especially if there are zillions of dollars at stake..think about it.

The damage is severely inconsitent with linear shock waves. The damage inspires me to believe the fuels were spread by explosive dispersion and ignited much like the moderbn DAISEYCUTTER incendiary cluster the Army has now. Hiroshima may have been a testing ground for the Daiseycutter, like a scaled down version of the vapour/fuel nightmare they mounted in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Desden, Tokyo and later in Vietnam. Fire is a big preoccupation with these superstitous skunks. Their has to be a big fire componant in the ritual killing. Like 9/11, the Ford Pinto.

The Nuclear Weaponeer narrating parts of the Trinity movie said that the most devastation comes from the low altitude blasts because the pre-cursor wave effect lifts everything off the ground. The simulation offered in T2 judgement day whereby the bomb is going off, you can see the precursor wave lift everything up into the air, cars, busses. You can see in this simulation, a great deal of care in accurately portraying the forces at work. Unlike the Hiroshima model, I find the T2 model more believable. You may have see some of the airbursts tested in the US proving grounds. They don't have much of a mushroom cloud. The mushroom cloud becomes more distinct as the charge gets low to the ground. In Hiroshima the smoke was everywhere. Smoke without wind. Look at the photos of the city after the explosion and ask why the roads are so clear. They never said anything about the bomb they used on Hiroshima as NOT having a wind componant. Look at the depicted damage and ask if this appears more consistant with firebombing then with atomic armaggeddon.

What is the same about Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki is that they were ALL firebombed (incendiary/holocaust-style).

TriNitroToluene and liquid gas incendiary devices radiate like hell too. The evidence supporting actual radiation sickness in Hiroshima looks more like evidence of cancers and burns consistent with conventional explosions.

I have examined before and after aerial reconnaissance photographs of the damage inflicted on Dresden and Tokyo. I have examined mushroom clouds from napalm bombs.

You see concrete extremely damaged in Dresden and Tokyo and Grozny, Chechnya but you don't see as much concrete in Hiroshima. Which brings me to include building configurations and volatility amongst the Target Committee's priorities. Most of the theatre for the Hiroshima bombing was to be razed to the ground to simulate A-bomb design parameters.They did a very crappy job but the public bought it anyways. For a while that is. Kyoto may have had too many hard targets and hard targets mean high survival rates and more chances for noisy and embarassing leaks. These, I would think, are critical considerations when pulling a hoax of this magnitude.

Neutrons WERE NOT the magic bullet, near-absolute synchronicity in the discharge of the shape charge plastiques HAD to be the cornerstone of that game of numbers.

And guess what happens after that? The chain reaction, if successful at all, consumes the fissionable mass before it can become critical and contribute to the exponential and very rapid expansion of the release of thermonuclear energy. Recall the experts explaining that BARELY ONE GRAM of the so-called weapon's grade uranium in Little Boy was converted to useful energy. In the VERY HEAVY load of 'lead' in Little Boy bomb ONLY ONE GRAM DID ALL THAT DAMAGE. One gram of fissionable uranium converts to 10 million degrees and million pound winds and the equivalent of 20KT of TriNitroToluene. They really wanted to play the Greek Gods.

Here are my reasons for believing the atom bomb and the rest of those clusters are bogus lies and illusions.

Item 1)

The historical seismograms of Hiroshima and Nagasaki have mysteriously vanished. If not only for the sake of war-era memorabilia, that information should have been everywhere in the museums and in the press. Hiroshima is located in a highly volcanic zone called the Honshu Arc and those active volcanoes were under constant seismographic surveillance during that period and log before that. The so-called atomic blast at hiroshima was estimated to be the equivalent of 6.2 on the Richter Scale but no seismological outpost in the world appears to have noted it. The Russians said they exploded the biggest atomic bomb ever made (50 megatons) at Novaya Zemlya in northern Russia. That is hundreds of thousands of times more powerful than what they say exploded over Hiroshima yet again, not one seismic needle moved at all. How is that possible I ask?

Item 3)

The so-called nuclear industry, be it weapons or so-called commercially viable nuclear reactors is the hoaxster's paradise. The whole ripoff scheme is shrouded in national security protocols and security bonding which means you can't discuss your work outside the plant if you don't want to incur the wrath of the NSA and risk jailtime for attempted so-called nuclear terrorism. The whole scam is compartmentalized so Sam doesn't know what George is up to.

Item 5)

The mushroom cloud thermodynamics of the atom bomb hoax have also been examined. The first problem the competant examiner notices with the mushroom cloud photographed on the day Hiroshima was attacked is that the sun is shining brightly overhead at the noon position. The bombing was said to have been at 8:15 am. I have heard it argued that this was the Nagasaki cloud but it has been used by the hoaxsters themselves for Hiroshima and Justin Raimondo had this exact cloud for his essay, Hiroshima, Mon Amour. Why would the jews want to say it is Nagasaki if they have nothing to hide? I went to the public library in downtown Montreal as a youth and I looked at microfilm of newspapers for that day in 1945 and the picture I enlarged taken from the microfilm was the cloud at noon and it was Hiroshima indeed. So, more evidence of a hoax?

Item 6)

The firebombing of Tokyo March 9-10, 1945-100,000 dead. M-69 aimable cluster firebombs reduced 26 square kilometers of that city to ash using a few hundred U.S. Air Force B-29 bombers. Aside the cost of the aircraft when initially built the cost of destroying all that section of Tokyo was a little more than a million dollars. So, why build anything that costs billions to destroy a fraction of the land those B-29 bombers could have destroyed in under less than a million dollars? Because the atom bomb was a lie and those cities reduced to ash by M-69 firebombs and that also explains the mysterious vanishing of the historical seismograms of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Are they hiding the fact that there was no shock wave? Is that why the trees were still standing charred and many building facades still standing?

Item 7)

Hiroshima was not evacuated and life came back to normal very quickly. This is inconsistent with the models presented by the experts that said nothing would grow for 70 years and nobody could live there for a very long time. One week after the so-called atom bomb, oleanders were growing everywhere. The hoaxsters started stories of a miracle. More contradiction and nonsense from the jewish hoaxsters.

Item 8-

The pilot of the B-29 they said dropped the so-called atom bomb on Hiroshima is a known Hollywood insider and his B-29 crew was totally segregated on an island with the pilot Commander Tibbits fully in charge of security and everything. He had full autonomy and discretion. I believe his crew of talmudic cowards was near 200 aircraft when they sortie'd on Hiroshima then later on Nagasaki. Another brilliant example of the secrecy and security shroud of compartmentalization over the whole hoax. Why would this dumbass put his mother's name on an instrument of utter genocide if it were not that his mother gloats without end at the hoax accomplishments and mass murder that she would be pleased to figure prominently on the nose of that beast of destruction and mass murder. How can anyone believe such a mess of contradictions when it is obvious they would have been nuts not to exploit the means they had at their disposal under those circumstances. They pulled it off while everyone on earth was in a state of shock and would have believed anything these conspirators said just to stop the ignited gasoline showers?

Item 9)

Items said to be radioactive have in fact been doped with x-ray radiation for periods of time corresponding to the hoax expectations. At the Pantex assembly plant in Amarillo Texas they have a very powerful x-ray machine they say they use to look inside decomissioned so-called atom bombs before they open them up. That is totally rediculous because why would anything be wrong inside a bomb watched by the military night and day. I say the x-ray machine is there to dope the materials they assemble so that the x-ray detectors they call rad meters can read something expected from the mathematical models. When a rad meter is picking up x-ray radiation it is seemlessly and logarithmically converting this sampled energy and reporting the results as rads instead of x-ray energy that it is. When a student examines a sample said to be radioactive it is a sample irradiated prior using a high intensity x-ray machine. Again compartmentalization plays a key role here at the Pantex plant. Coincidentally they are the only plant in the US authorized to make the final assemblies of so-called nuclear bombs. What else could they be using that huge x-ray machine at Pantex if it is not to create illusions of atomic radioactivity?

Item 19)

Mushroom clouds do not grow out of radial airbrust explosions. The mushroom cloud needs to be seeded from the ground. The thermodynamic conditions caused by a circumferential airburst explosion would superheat the air all around and send radial shock waves emanating from the center outwards like the popular festivity fireworks and that would negate the conditions required for a mushroom cloud to grow normally. A mushroom cloud grows from the ground up in a predictable circular pattern that develops and flows through a relatively cool and stable upper air mass because the explosion was at the ground level. Who can deny that mushroom clouds can't grow out of radial airburst explosions?

The people who projected the ILLUSION THEY HAD THIS AWFUL WEAPON hoped they had imagined a weapon that would SELECTIVELY put an end to HUMANITY'S HOPES FOR THE FUTURE. This HOAX, it was hoped, would reap untold treasures for it's authors.

Just ponder the MINDBOGGLING ARRAY of possibilities if one accepts that the ABOMB IS A HOAX. When you accept the idea that it was a HOAX you can fully understand how it changed the world and our lives. Seeing it for the hoax it is gives one a feeling of freedom and understanding. One thing SEEING THE HOAX will not do is MAKE CONVENTIONAL WARFARE GO AWAY.

This confusion on the part of the Japanese was NO CONFUSION AT ALL.

They had been firebombed thousands of times by B-29s raids before, during, and after the HIRO/NAGA combination blasts. The reason the Japanese did not understand the difference IS THAT THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE. Hiroshima and Nagasaki had both likely wreaked the odor of spent gasoline and napalm fumes. I think the Japanese people WERE CONFUSED BY THE A BOMB STORIES, they could not distinguish the damage of Hiroshima and Nagasaki with that of the thousands of other cities bombed to saturation with flammable ordinance. The confusion WAS NOT WITH THE FIREBOMBING, people could SEE THAT, it was the weird ATOM BOMB twist to these stories they could not understand.


Flat Earth Debate / The "True Earth Map"
« on: November 09, 2008, 11:27:32 PM »
Here is background on the "True FE Map," as Tom Bishop calls it, from the .net FE site for those people that don't go over there.  It is the True believers section because they didn't want to open it up for true debate.  Wonder why?  ;)  ;D

Quote from: Sandokhan
Now, the Real Map, used by C. Columbus, F. Magellan, J. Cabot to get to the right destination, with no problems: the Flat Earth Map.

A comparison with the round earth map, will reveal how he changed the distances, very cleverly, to at least give the impression of a spherical earth.

Secret maps of Columbus:

Many scientists, including C. Hapgood, have tried to somehow fit the Piri Reis map onto the round earth map, with strange results, not realizing that the Piri Reis Map is actually a flat earth map.

Then we start understanding that the map that we have used from the elementary school is not an equidistant representation of the distances among the different parts of the earth, but it is a powerful tool to deceive us miserably making us to believe in a distorted reality. How many other things are hidden or distorted in our maps?

Hapgood makes a great effort trying to adapt Piri Re'is charts to the system of latitude and longitud as used today, but those men didn't use that, because they had flat water in every place where they went.

Piri Re'is had some notes (see on his charts, and he never speaks of curved waters, or degrees, or latitude. I just copy some lines:

For instance, a book fell into the hands of the said Colombo, and be found it said in this book that at the end of the Western Sea [Atlantic] that is, on its western side, there were coasts and islands and all kinds of metals and also precious stones. The abovementioned, having studied this book thoroughly, explained these matters one by one to the great of Genoa and said: 'Come, give me two ships, let me go and find these places.' They said: 'O unprofitable man, can an end or a limit be found to the Western Sea? Its vapour is full of darkness.' The above-mentioned Colombo saw that no help was forthcoming from the Genoese, he sped forth, went to the Bey of Spain [king], and told his tale in detail. They too answered like the Genoese. In brief Colombo petitioned these people for a long time, finally the Bey of Spain gave him two ships, saw that they were well equipped, and said:

'O Colombo, if it happens as you say, let us make you kapudan [admiral] to that country.' Having said which be sent the said Colombo to the Western Sea

The late Gazi Kemal had a Spanish slave. The above-mentioned slave said to Kemal Reis, be bad been three times to that land with Colombo. He said: 'First we reached the Strait of Gibraltar, then from there straight south and west between the two . . . [illegible]. Having advanced straight four thousand miles, we saw an island facing us, but gradually the waves of the sea became foamless, that is, the sea was becalmed and the North Star-the seamen on their compasses still say star-little by little was veiled and became invisible, and he also said that the stars in that region are not arranged as here. They are seen in a different arrangement. They anchored at the island which they had seen earlier across the way, the population of the island came, shot arrows at them and did not allow them to land and ask for information. The males and the females shot hand arrows. The tips of these arrows were made of fishbones, and the whole population went naked and also very . . . [illegible]. Seeing that they could not land on that island; they crossed to the other side of the island, they saw a boat. On seelng them; the boat fled and they [the people in the boat] dashed out on land. They [the Spaniards] took the boat. They saw that inside of it there was human flesh. It happened that these people were of that nation which went from island to island hunting men and eating them. They said Colombo saw yet another island, they neared it, they saw that on that island there were great snakes. They avoided landing on this island and remained there seventeen days. The people of this island saw that no harm came to them from this boat, they caught fish and brought it to them in their small ship's boat [filika]. These [Spaniards] were pleased and gave them glass beads. It appears that he [Columbus] had read-in the book that in that region glass beads were valued. Seeing the beads they brought still more fish. These [Spaniards] always gave them glass beads. One day they saw gold around the arm of a woman, they took the gold and gave her beads. They said to them, to bring more gold, we will give you more beads, [they said]. They went and brought them much gold. It appears that in their mountains there were gold mines. One day, also, they saw pearls in the hands of one person. They saw that when; they gave beads, many more pearls were brought to them. Pearls were found on the shore of this island, in a spot one or two fathoms deep. And also loading their ship with many logwood trees and taking two natives along, they carried them within that year to the Bey of Spain. But the said Colombo, not knowing the language of these people, they traded by signs, and after this trip the Bey of Spain sent priests and barley, taught the natives how to sow and reap and converted them to his own religion. They had no religion of any sort. They walked naked and lay there like animals. Now these regions have been opened to all and have become famous. The names which mark the places on the said islands and coasts were given by Colombo, that these places may be known by them. And also Colombo was a great astronomer. The coasts and island on this map are taken from Colombo's map.

Whoever (person or sect) wrote that book knew very well that at the end of the western side of the Western Sea there were coasts and islands and all kinds of metals and also precious stones. .... and glass beads were valued, which clearly shows us that Columbus and his men were not the firsts. And whosoever wrote that book knew that those coasts was not India: Columbus took with him boxes of glass beads because he knew where he was going to.

Flat Earth Debate / More pictures at Sea
« on: October 18, 2008, 07:02:23 AM »
I still haven't gotten a hold of a telescope, but I was able to take some pictures with a telephoto lens rather than relying on using binoculars.  We are wrapping up this well, so this is the last set of pictures that I will be able to take from this location.  So here you go, pictures showing the same thing that they did before, no restoration of the air gap under Thunder Horse, or the hull of the Discoverer Enterprise.

Naked Eye

Thunder Horse

Discoverer Enterprise

The focal length on the telephoto lens is 200mm.  If you have any other questions about the conditions, feel free to ask.

Flat Earth Debate / Pictures taken at Sea
« on: October 03, 2008, 01:04:37 AM »
Here are pictures that I took yesterday...

View toward the north-northeast with no magnification

Magnified view of Thunder Horse PDQ (Thunder Horse at

Magnified view of the drillship Discoverer Enterprise (Discoverer Enterprise at

The ship and the structure are both approximately 16 nautical miles (nm) north-northwest of our location as determined by radar.  My height of eye while taking the pictures was 23 meters (76 feet) and the magnified pictures were taken using binoculars (7x50) with the digital camera.

Here are pictures of the two vessels for reference...

Thunder Horse

Discoverer Enterprise

In the picture of Thunder Horse you can see that there is no gap at the waterline that would be visible is we were able to see her waterline, instead we see her upper works at the horizon.

In the picture of the Discoverer Enterprise we see the forward superstructure and the gap between the forward superstructure and the derrick, but again, the hull is not visible.

Flat Earth Debate / Sunrise Images
« on: September 28, 2008, 05:01:42 AM »
I figured out how to use the camera with the binoculars, so I was able to get a magnified picture of sunrise.  According to FE theory, the Sun appearing in the morning is. due to perspective. You should be able to bring the Sun above the horizon using magnification.

Here is the unmagnified picture that was taken first...

Here is the second picture as viewed through the binoculars...

The bottom of the Sun was not "brought back" through magnification.

So everyone knows the conditions...

The binoculars are Funjinon 7x50 binoculars.  Height of eye is 71' above sea level.  The temperature was 24 C (dry bulb) and 19 C (wet bulb).  Wind was 9 knots out of the north.

Flat Earth Debate / Spotlight Sun and eclipses
« on: September 18, 2008, 12:40:23 PM »
I was looking at a diagram of a solar eclipse that was posted on an another thread...

Looking at that diagram, I realized there is probably a big problem with the spotlight sun/bendy light model of FE.

Here is a diagram that shows bendy light and the spotlight sun model...

How can the Moon obstruct the light of the Sun, from a short distance, and still have light stream out to be visible as partial eclipses around the area of totality.

Flat Earth Debate / Conducting one of Rowbotham's Experiments
« on: September 12, 2008, 07:06:23 AM »
I was reading through Earth is Not a Globe and decided to conduct one of the experiments as suggested by this site and the author.

While reading through Section 2 of the version that I found on Google (

I saw the experiment about dropping objects off of the mast and decided that it would be a perfect first experiment.

The derrick on the rig is 50 meters from the top to the rig floor.

While underway avoiding Gustav was the perfect time to conduct the experiment.  So I made sure that there was no one on the rig floor, and then tossed a shackle straight into the air.

It rose and then fell straight down to the rig floor.  I repeated the experiment with a wrench.  Still a straight drop.

Well, maybe 4 knots wasn't fast enough.  I tried the experiment again while on the crewboat to the beach.  This time I was tossing peanuts up about 10 feet and then watching to see where they fell.  I tossed the peanut up and it landed at my feet.

Well, maybe 20 knots wasn't fast enough.  Not having a train handy...

I decided to repeat the experiment on an airplane in flight.  This time I was unable to toss the peanut 10 feet, so I was tossing it the three feet to the overhead.  The peanut still came straight down into my lap.

Based on these experiments, I can concluded that dropping balls off of the mast of sailing vessels does nothing to prove whether there is motion present.  So Rowbotham's conclusion...

Quote from: Earth Not a Globe

is flawed.

Flat Earth Debate / Iranian Space Program
« on: August 21, 2008, 04:56:10 AM »
Although the Iranian government has done all it can to embarrass the US government, they decide to join the conspiracy rather than pointing out the flaws in the US space program.  They will publicly state the Holocaust didn't happen and is just a conspiracy, but not the US space program.  Amazing.

Flat Earth Debate / Mapping the Earth
« on: June 28, 2008, 06:22:37 AM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop
We'll be happy to start mapping the 197 million square miles (RE numbers) of the earth's surface as soon as you guys start donating towards the millions of dollars it will take to fund the project.

Here is a recommendation for starting your mapping project, on a low budget; it is time intensive though.

Start by plotting previous calculated latitudes and longitudes of known locations on a blank map.  There are plenty of references out there for the positions of cities, historical locations, lighthouses, etc.  These positions were determined using observations of the sun, moon and stars.  The older positions (pre-1750s) should be more suspect because of the lack of time information that created errors in the longitude measurements.  This shouldn't be a problem because there are later observations and positions.  If you choose, you can reject all post-1948 observations to eliminate any potential NASA bias in the positions.

Once this basic map is completed, then you can focus your resources on those "blank areas" that haven't been mapped.

The US has most of their lists of lighthouses and lights available for free online, and there are positions noted for each light and lighthouse.  There are also positions of points, islands and other significant features in the published accounts of explorers (Ross, Cook, etc).  Many of those resources are available online, or from large university libraries.

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